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View Full Version : Mike Leake's first "Greg Maddux" start



smixsell
09-07-2011, 07:03 PM
For all of you who said Leake is a "back of the rotation guy" or a "middle reliever," take note. Last night we saw an even bigger glimpse of "the next Greg Maddux" than the many signs he has laready shown over the past 2 years. More are coming. As I predicted when I saw his first 5 starts last year, he is going to be the new Greg Maddux (not the "poor man's Greg Maddux") if he stays healthy and keeps his head on straight.

Back of the rotation guy my *ss! :)

texasdave
09-07-2011, 07:34 PM
Leake's start was excellent. If they were thinking about shutting him down, they might want to give him one more to see if he can build upon that effort.

texasdave
09-07-2011, 09:31 PM
Leake gets another start for his effort. Volquez joining the rotation. 6-man rotation one time through.

bounty37h
09-08-2011, 11:16 AM
I have said this since the day they drafted him-I think he can/will be the best Reds pitcher in years.

brm7675
09-08-2011, 12:44 PM
While I agree he will be good, there are those who believe that unless he increases his speed or strikeouts he will struggle in the majors.

smixsell
09-08-2011, 03:12 PM
While I agree he will be good, there are those who believe that unless he increases his speed or strikeouts he will struggle in the majors.

And those who believe this don't know much about pitching. :thumbdown:

To the trained eye, the kid is an odds on superstar and quite possibly the second coming of Greg Maddux. :)

Roush's socks
09-08-2011, 03:42 PM
When you take a step back and look at what Leake has done it is impressive. Went straight to the majors and now has 2 seasons that for his age are pretty solid. The guy is a pitcher and he knows how to get outs. At age 23 he already has shown more consistency than Bailey who is 25. His control is good enough that he doesn't need great velocity. If he can build on what he has done he could be real good.

The other thing is that this has really become a pitcher's league and there are a lot of pitchers around the MLB with great numbers and great stuff. Not to downgrade Leake but the standards have risen over the last couple of years.

brm7675
09-08-2011, 04:41 PM
And those who believe this don't know much about pitching. :thumbdown:

To the trained eye, the kid is an odds on superstar and quite possibly the second coming of Greg Maddux. :)

How many quality pitchers today don't have an overpowering fastball or very good K rate?

bubbachunk
09-08-2011, 05:13 PM
One start does not make or break a pitcher. Also given the same age, Maddox was hugely outperforming what Leake has done this year, dude cant hold his jock, but not many can.

Leake's ERA+ is only 98, nothing spectacular, but solid. Just let him be him and stop comparing him to guys with talent levels he cannot even sniff.

brm7675
09-08-2011, 05:40 PM
One start does not make or break a pitcher. Also given the same age, Maddox was hugely outperforming what Leake has done this year, dude cant hold his jock, but not many can.

Leake's ERA+ is only 98, nothing spectacular, but solid. Just let him be him and stop comparing him to guys with talent levels he cannot even sniff.

After Maddox was drafted where was he in his 2nd year of pro ball?

brm7675
09-08-2011, 05:43 PM
Maddox was drafted in 1984...

In 1987, his first full season in the majors, Maddux struggled to a 6–14 record and 5.61 ERA, but he flourished in 1988, finishing 18–8 with a 3.18 ERA. This began a streak of 17 straight seasons in which Maddux recorded 15 or more wins, the longest such streak in history. Cy Young ranks second with 15 straight 15-win seasons. A highlight of his 1988 season came on May 11, when he threw a three-hit, 10-inning shutout against the Padres.

smixsell
09-08-2011, 08:58 PM
Maddox was drafted in 1984...

In 1987, his first full season in the majors, Maddux struggled to a 6–14 record and 5.61 ERA, but he flourished in 1988, finishing 18–8 with a 3.18 ERA. This began a streak of 17 straight seasons in which Maddux recorded 15 or more wins, the longest such streak in history. Cy Young ranks second with 15 straight 15-win seasons. A highlight of his 1988 season came on May 11, when he threw a three-hit, 10-inning shutout against the Padres.

Maddx's first good year 1988, his THIRD season in MLB and his FIFTH season in pro ball..... and he averaged only 5.06 strikeouts per 9 innings in that his FIFTH season. In his first two major league seasons his era was 5.52 (5.81 Ks per 9 inn) in 5 starts and 5.61 (5.83 Ks per 9 inn)in 27 strarts.

Leake is ALREADY averaging 6.53 strikeouts per 9 innings and has an ERA at or below 4.00 in this his SECOND season in pro ball.

So both his ERA and his K's per 9 are significantly better than Maddux's at the same point in their MLB careers (despite Leake pitching appoximately half his games in a stadium that makes Atlanta's "Launching pad" look like the old Astrodome by comparison)

So what was your point again? :)

bubbachunk
09-08-2011, 10:02 PM
Maddx's first good year 1988, his THIRD season in MLB and his FIFTH season in pro ball..... and he averaged only 5.06 strikeouts per 9 innings in that his FIFTH season. In his first two major league seasons his era was 5.52 (5.81 Ks per 9 inn) in 5 starts and 5.61 (5.83 Ks per 9 inn)in 27 strarts.

Leake is ALREADY averaging 6.53 strikeouts per 9 innings and has an ERA at or below 4.00 in this his SECOND season in pro ball.

So both his ERA and his K's per 9 are significantly better than Maddux's at the same point in their MLB careers (despite Leake pitching appoximately half his games in a stadium that makes Atlanta's "Launching pad" look like the old Astrodome by comparison)

So what was your point again? :)

Leake had 3 years of college ball, so don't discount that.

In his second full major league season Maddox had an ERA of 3.18 and ERA+ of 114 compared to Leake's 4.0 and 98. Not to mention he threw 250 innnings, making him a workhorse compared to Leake's maybe 160-170.

There is no comparison, he was flat out better.

texasdave
09-08-2011, 10:30 PM
Leake had 3 years of college ball, so don't discount that.

In his second full major league season Maddox had an ERA of 3.18 and ERA+ of 114 compared to Leake's 4.0 and 98. Not to mention he threw 250 innnings, making him a workhorse compared to Leake's maybe 160-170.

There is no comparison, he was flat out better.

Maddux is a certain Hall-of-Famer. If Leake gets anywhere close the Reds will have no complaints. And If Leake starts getting the Maddux strike zone he might just accomplish that. Not hard to retire hitters when you don't have to throw a strike. I know that sounds like sour grapes. But Maddux did seem to have a wider strike zone than most.

The DARK
09-09-2011, 01:25 AM
Not every control pitcher with a big repertoire is Greg Maddux. I don't think Leake is. But at worst, he drops off a bit and is still that back of the rotation pitcher we thought he was at the beginning of the season. His floor is probably much higher than that of Travis Wood. I fully expect him to make some improvements over the next couple years, and have a long career of 3.50 ERA seasons. Anything more and we've got ourselves a gem. :thumbup:

jhiller21
09-09-2011, 04:29 AM
If Leake starts getting the Maddux strike zone he might just accomplish that. Not hard to retire hitters when you don't have to throw a strike. I know that sounds like sour grapes. But Maddux did seem to have a wider strike zone than most.

Totally agree with this, but Maddux got that extra few inches off the black because he displayed such amazing control over his entire career.

Leake has the kind of control that could allow him the same benefit over time, but today's umps are under a bit more scrutiny to call a fair zone.

I still remember Maddux getting strike calls on pitches a foot outside, especially later in his career.

dthomas24
09-10-2011, 03:17 PM
It's too hard to compare the stats of today's pitchers to the pitchers of 25 years ago. Too many changes in the game! Shrinking ballparks, shrinking strike zones, TOTALLY different mentality of how pitchers should be used and how much they should pitch. However I do think Leake will have a very good career, maybe even make a couple of all star teams. Maddux-like would be a bonus, those don't come along very often.

smixsell
09-14-2011, 03:49 PM
Nice finale by Leake. Will be competing with Cueto for top man in the rotation next year.

nux fan
09-14-2011, 03:57 PM
you sure it wont be volquez vs. willis?

malcontent
09-14-2011, 04:45 PM
I still remember Maddux getting strike calls on pitches a foot outside, especially later in his career.
And the umps that gave him (and Glavine) that extra foot deserve their own rings (or whatever MLB gives out for Division or League championships).

I remember Glavine starting games 2-2.5 feet outside to see if the ump would give him an additional 1-1.5 feet.

Simply pathetic. It's poetic justice that they "won" only one World Series.

It's possible that in the playoffs their strike zones shrank to something approaching normal, and that they couldn't adjust.

texasdave
09-14-2011, 08:01 PM
And the umps that gave him (and Glavine) that extra foot deserve their own rings (or whatever MLB gives out for Division or League championships).

I remember Glavine starting games 2-2.5 feet outside to see if the ump would give him an additional 1-1.5 feet.

Simply pathetic. It's poetic justice that they "won" only one World Series.

It's possible that in the playoffs their strike zones shrank to something approaching normal, and that they couldn't adjust.

That Atlanta Braves strike zone belongs in Cooperstown. :laugh: