PDA

View Full Version : Baker bristles at question about Mesoraco



FireDusty
09-10-2011, 06:05 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/09/10/baker-bristles-at-question-about-playing-mesoraco/

“I was a September call-up. These guys are getting a lot more playing time than I ever got. Everybody is trying to get their numbers. I’m doing what’s best for them and what’s best for the team.”

Musty Dangler

My Take: This is just one sampling, but this absolute joke of a fool has no concern over next year. It's only about finishing .500 and his chosen few favorites getting this number and that number.

His comments offer all the insight a person ever would need into why he is horrid at winning baseball games & a favorite of players at the same time. The regulars love him because he helps them get their stats.

How a GM or Owner could read this story and not fire his pathetic ass the second after the final out of the season will be the question we all see answered.

What an absolute joke.

I challenge anyone to read that story and then tell me this is the guy that is going to lead this team to a World Series.

It ain't about winning first and foremost. It's about his chosen few getting their stats, not making veterans mad, and if you can win....that's a bonus.

Worst manager, with the worst priorities in the history of the oldest team in MLB.

nux fan
09-10-2011, 06:09 PM
wow in any real baseball city that comment would get him immediately fired

"Its all about their numbers"
Sounds like what a crooked olice chief tells his patrol men when telling them to give get some speeding tickets

If Baker had one functional neuron or if his idiotic GM did, then they would know that the only advantage of being out of the race is to audition future players

Baker is still reliving his days in Atlanta caddying for Hank Aaron, Baker needs to be shipped to Sious Falls where he can manage Gary Nolan

Red Raindog
09-10-2011, 06:45 PM
wow == just wow

:confused:

Stray
09-10-2011, 07:06 PM
What is wrong with Mesoraco's amount of playing time?

And to the players numbers can mean money in their pocket.

Red Raindog
09-10-2011, 08:43 PM
What is wrong with Mesoraco's amount of playing time?

And to the players numbers can mean money in their pocket.

The part that rattles me is Dusty harking back to "his" day and the statement that he had to sit when he was called up in Septmeber ---

and his complaint about not having a spot to start Wood -- is he in charge or what?

nux fan
09-10-2011, 09:00 PM
Baker was asked if Barry Larkin could get a start in late September and he said, the heck with that Kurt Stillwell has to get his numbers

FireDusty
09-10-2011, 09:37 PM
What is wrong with Mesoraco's amount of playing time?

And to the players numbers can mean money in their pocket.

Dude. :lol:

You must actually be Dusty.

He cannot be defended.

Dude. :lol:

Stray
09-10-2011, 09:40 PM
Dude. :lol:

You must actually be Dusty.

He cannot be defended.

Dude. :lol:

It was a simple question. What is wrong with the amount of playing time that Mesoraco is getting? Did you think that his Sept 1st callup meant that Hanigan and Ramon would be benched for the remainder of the year?

Stray
09-10-2011, 09:42 PM
The part that rattles me is Dusty harking back to "his" day and the statement that he had to sit when he was called up in Septmeber ---

and his complaint about not having a spot to start Wood -- is he in charge or what?

I don't really read much into what managers say in interviews, more often than not they're not going to let you know what is really going on.

What I've seen lately is a lot of our young guys playing fairly often (minus Frazier which kinda sucks cause I think he deserves it) and that is cool with me.

mu4103
09-10-2011, 09:49 PM
WOW!!!!!!!!!! Eye Opening.

mu4103
09-10-2011, 10:13 PM
Today Heisey passed Stubbs in BA (.251 to .250), RBI (43 to 42), and tied in HR (15) in 40% of the ABs. I'm not saying Stubbs should be benched, but he shouldn't be an everyday fixture - he has done nothing to earn that. I can understand keeping Joey V. in the line-up and to a lesser extent Bruce. But Stubbs, really? The Reds are leaving themselves in a position going into next year not knowing who should be playing. Stubbs has gone down since last year. If Dusty wants his CFer to hit .250, play everyday, and lead the league in K's then by all means keep playing Stubbs everyday. If not, the Reds can use this opportunity to see what they got in their log-jam of LFers.

DocRed
09-10-2011, 10:19 PM
Duh-sty knows his time is limited...I would get ticked off as well. Let's just hope he doesn't survive past this year.

mu4103
09-10-2011, 10:49 PM
The article makes Dusty seem like he runs the Reds more like a Union Factory than a sports organization. I half expected him to say "Everybody here has mouths to feed." I understand if he is frustrated that people want to know his line-up all the time. But, the reason why is because it doesn't make sense to us half the time. The other part of course is that we want to see the new young players. But Dusty's line-ups don't make sense to the rest of us and as long as we are losing we are going to want to know why you made the line-up out the way you did.

1. Drew Stubbs .250 has the 3rd most ABs in the NL. Of the top 10 everyone else is hitting at least .295 except for 2 middle infielders. He also has about 30 more K's than anyone in baseball. Why is he being trotted out day after day and not given time to fix his swing?

2. Johnny Gomes was given the starting job before spring training, hit under .200 in the spring, then it took over two months before he broke .200 in the regular season. It took Washington less than 1 month to figure out what you didn't in 2 years. He is a bench player - part time at best. He is presently hitting .207.

3. It seems like you reward mediocrity and punish success by how you a lot playing time.

We want to know why you make the line-up out the way you do because we don't understand and it is different than what 95% of the other managers do in baseball.

Spaxspore
09-10-2011, 11:06 PM
i Got a bottle of french chateau all lined up when i hear that Crusty is gone for good.

The man is a defeatist. He is sooo slow to react to modern changes in base ball. Also the guy seems to be more focused on individual achievements than the team and winning. Which in returns has to damage the teams chemistry.

Hit 4 of 5, and drive in 5 runs? Think you will start the next game... NOpe.. Why?! Because stubbs needs his 100 runs and his 200 strike outs....

I cannot wait for this bum to be gone.

He needs to rethink on how to manage.

nux fan
09-11-2011, 12:37 AM
He is a troglydyte, he should have stayed in his cave, his answers are dismissive, inane, poorly thought out, not mathematically based, he can barely manage a Little League team

Krawhitham
09-11-2011, 02:48 AM
What is wrong with Mesoraco's amount of playing time?

And to the players numbers can mean money in their pocket.

This man just does not grasp what his job is, he is not in the players union anymore, he does not work for the players, he works for management PERIOD.

Baseball is a business plain and simple and the goal of this business is to win a WS.

It is not Dusty's job to make sure players can find a job elsewhere, it is not his job to let players pad their numbers so they get more in arbitration from the Reds.

He is his job to win a WS, that can not happen this season, so now it is his job to find out what he has for next season. Take Razor as an example he should not play another game for the Reds, he will not be back next year. All Dusty is doing is letting him pad his numbers to get more money from a different team.

Take Votto he is no longer developing he is a superstar, sit him every 4th or 5th day and get Yonder another start while also looking at another call up in LF in the same game. Plus sitting Votto a day a week will not hurt his number much or at all, he always comeback supper strong after a day off. Sitting Joey could cost the team wins but it will not hurt his numbers. And wins at this point in this season do not matter, heck lose as many as you can and get a better draft pick

The only thing Dusty is doing is not getting a good look at all the call ups and costing this team more money in the long run. And costing this team money mean they will have to let someone go at some point because they can not afford them, Phillips comes to mind

I have no problem playing Bruce & Stubbs they are still learning, they have no replacement for Phillips so there is no point in sitting him.

Dusty is just hurting himself in the long run.

Krawhitham
09-11-2011, 02:51 AM
and his complaint about not having a spot to start Wood -- is he in charge or what?

Arroyo should not start another game this year, give Wood that spot. Arroyo has not been right all season all because management did not DL him when he had Mono. Shut him down and let him start working for next season now so he can come back strong and hopefully find that 4-5 MPH he has been missing

Krawhitham
09-11-2011, 02:56 AM
It was a simple question. What is wrong with the amount of playing time that Mesoraco is getting? Did you think that his Sept 1st callup meant that Hanigan and Ramon would be benched for the remainder of the year?


Hanigan & Mesoraco should be spiting the duties 60%-40%. Razor should have been traded or released

Stray
09-11-2011, 11:05 AM
This man just does not grasp what his job is, he is not in the players union anymore, he does not work for the players, he works for management PERIOD.

Baseball is a business plain and simple and the goal of this business is to win a WS.

It is not Dusty's job to make sure players can find a job elsewhere, it is not his job to let players pad their numbers so they get more in arbitration from the Reds.

He is his job to win a WS, that can not happen this season, so now it is his job to find out what he has for next season. Take Razor as an example he should not play another game for the Reds, he will not be back next year. All Dusty is doing is letting him pad his numbers to get more money from a different team.

Take Votto he is no longer developing he is a superstar, sit him every 4th or 5th day and get Yonder another start while also looking at another call up in LF in the same game. Plus sitting Votto a day a week will not hurt his number much or at all, he always comeback supper strong after a day off. Sitting Joey could cost the team wins but it will not hurt his numbers. And wins at this point in this season do not matter, heck lose as many as you can and get a better draft pick

The only thing Dusty is doing is not getting a good look at all the call ups and costing this team more money in the long run. And costing this team money mean they will have to let someone go at some point because they can not afford them, Phillips comes to mind

I have no problem playing Bruce & Stubbs they are still learning, they have no replacement for Phillips so there is no point in sitting him.

Dusty is just hurting himself in the long run.

Mesoraco is getting a decent amount of playing time, more than enough for him to get his taste of the big leagues. We can prepare him to get the majority of the starts, or to be in an even platoon next spring training.

You aren't going to sit Bruce, BP, or Votto to look at other players. That just isn't going to happen...granted I can see what you're saying and get with it, but ultimately it wouldn't serve much of a purpose.

The way I see it there are the position players we need to know about for next season.

Francisco - Getting a lot of PT
Alonso - Getting a lot of PT
Sappelt - Getting a decent amount of PT
Mesoraco - More or less just getting him some time since he'll be up next season
Frazier - I don't know if there's room for him next year, but he took advantage of the opportunity when the guys in front of him got hurt
Heisey - Getting some PT - unless we start sitting Stubbs more (which I would do) he's not going to get that much PT
Cozart - Hurt

It's a myth that Dusty isn't playing young players. A lot of it are fans frustrations over other things, and they're just reacting to any lineup he will run out there saying it's wrong. Francisco at 3rd and not Frazier? Alonso in LF and not Heisey? Sappelt in LF and not Alonso? Frazier not playing because other young guys are? Outrage!! Dusty doesn't play young players!

I think we're seeing who we need to see for next season, but my only complaint is that I have no idea what we're doing with our starting rotation. If there is a method to that madness then I don't get it. More specifically, Travis Wood.

Reds
09-11-2011, 12:43 PM
How many teams are carrying three catchers? Weak!

Spaxspore
09-11-2011, 12:52 PM
should have allowed razor to go with waivers. But nooo lets not get anything for him, and now we are stuck with 3 catchers. With one he will not be here next year.

Perfect opportunity to get something for an older player, and start a prospect everyday, to see what we have.


But no, I forgot this is a Cincinnati franchise that is starting to look like the Bengals on how they handle thier players and personal. Blah

demas863
09-11-2011, 01:03 PM
"I’m doing what’s best for them and what’s best for the team.”

How much clearer can it be? He should be doing what is best for the owner who pays him and the fans who provide the funds. That means striving in every way possible to win a pennant and the World Series.

I've owned race horses. What would get a trainer fired on the spot is his cop-out statement that his primary concern is the welfare of the horse and not winning races and thus a return (both monetary and intangible) on the owner's investment.

But will Dusty go? Probably not. He suckered Castellini into two years and now the owner's ego is involved. Remember Castellini's "Dusty's a winner" comment. In Chicago arguably to a person towards the end he was referred to with the perjorative "Dustyf..k." Are Cubs' fans stupid?

"I’m doing what’s best for them and what’s best for the team.” = a perfect example of cutting the baby in half. Result: dead baby and a bloody one at that.

Enough drama. I think the guy's got a chip on his shoulder that doesn't serve him well.

realreds1
09-11-2011, 02:09 PM
Baker is the same guy who made eyebrow-raising choices for pitchers in the 2003 All-Star game.

It was revealed that some of those strange choices were players who would receive bonuses from their respective teams if they made the All-Star game.

nux fan
09-11-2011, 02:34 PM
thats his modus operandi, brown nose the players and make himself look popular, as for winning and strategy and sbaremath,, they just clog up his mind

DaytonFlyer
09-12-2011, 09:01 AM
How many teams are carrying three catchers? Weak!

I couldn't tell if this was serious or tongue-in-cheek.

But if it was serious... Mes didn't get called up until the rosters expanded, so I am not sure what this complaint is even about. At least stick to something that makes sense.

If it was t-i-c... I apologize for not fully getting it.

smixsell
09-12-2011, 11:19 AM
Rusty truly is an "anti-manager." He will be fired in the off season.

texasdave
09-12-2011, 11:49 AM
And to the players numbers can mean money in their pocket.

Those players had five months to post numbers. That is the whole problem. They didn't post the numbers on a consistent enough basis. That's why the team has nothing to play for in September. I never thought I would live to hear someone say let them play so they can post numbers and make more money after they underperformed for the first five months of the year, effectively eliminating the team from playoff contention. I simply don't understand the thought process of rewarding these same players with more playing time so they can make more money after they lollygagged most of the season. Helping them make more money is a higher priority than trying to get ready for 2012. Unbelievable. Only in Dusty's World.

FireDusty
09-13-2011, 10:17 AM
It's a myth that Dusty isn't playing young players. He's being told to play them and it took having to drag him kicking and screaming to play these guys.

If Dusty was in charge of September call ups, there wouldn't be any.

He's just horrid.

Stray
09-13-2011, 11:32 AM
He's being told to play them and it took having to drag him kicking and screaming to play these guys.

If Dusty was in charge of September call ups, there wouldn't be any.

He's just horrid.

Do you have any proof for this statement? If you do, then I will change my mind. If you don't, it appears you're putting Dusty in a no win situation where he's to blame when he doesn't, and not deserving of credit when he does.

Stray
09-13-2011, 11:43 AM
Those players had five months to post numbers. That is the whole problem. They didn't post the numbers on a consistent enough basis. That's why the team has nothing to play for in September. I never thought I would live to hear someone say let them play so they can post numbers and make more money after they underperformed for the first five months of the year, effectively eliminating the team from playoff contention. I simply don't understand the thought process of rewarding these same players with more playing time so they can make more money after they lollygagged most of the season. Helping them make more money is a higher priority than trying to get ready for 2012. Unbelievable. Only in Dusty's World.

I don't think Razor has been a problem for us this year and that is most of the complaints here, no? I agree we shoulda traded him, but since Walt didn't I don't mind him working with Cueto.

If it's Stubbs or Renteria then okay, but we have no better options at SS and I highly doubt we're playing Stubbs to get him money. Stubbs' future likely depends on what those other guys do in their time more than anything else, are they going to be clearly better than him enough to lose Stubbs' defense in CF? I'm of the opinion that if we fill our middle of the lineup bat and have some sort of production from 3rd, LF, or SS next year we can easily live with Stubbs bat at the bottom of our lineup.

smixsell
09-13-2011, 11:53 AM
Those players had five months to post numbers. That is the whole problem. They didn't post the numbers on a consistent enough basis. That's why the team has nothing to play for in September. I never thought I would live to hear someone say let them play so they can post numbers and make more money after they underperformed for the first five months of the year, effectively eliminating the team from playoff contention. I simply don't understand the thought process of rewarding these same players with more playing time so they can make more money after they lollygagged most of the season. Helping them make more money is a higher priority than trying to get ready for 2012. Unbelievable. Only in Dusty's World.

Spot on.

Krawhitham
09-13-2011, 12:06 PM
Do you have any proof for this statement? If you do, then I will change my mind. If you don't, it appears you're putting Dusty in a no win situation where he's to blame when he doesn't, and not deserving of credit when he does.

You are either Dusty's kid or just like to take the side no one else wants to cause conflict

He did not play them until injuries (or trades) required them to play. And yes Walt told Dusty and everyone else in a interview that the team would get a good look at the callups. Now I think Dusty is still playing them less than Walt would like.

If nothing else some of these guys are trade bate and Dusty is making it hard for other teams to get good looks. We have more players than spots at this point

We have
4-8 outfielders (Bruce, Stubbs, Hi-C, Frazier, Sappelt, Alonso, Sappelt, Lewis)
2-4 3rd basemen plus Cairo (Rolen, Francisco, Alonso, Frazier)
1-2 1st basemen plus Cairo (Votto, Alonso)
3 catchers (Hanigan, Hernandez, Mesoraco)
1-3 Short Stops plus Cairo (Janish, Renteria, Valaika)

A couple will be let go but for the others some need to be traded to fill holes

Now we could see what most of these guys can do on a daily basis to raise trade value or to see who should be starting next season or we could let players that already have a track record and trade value pad their stats so the they cost more in the future for someone

texasdave
09-13-2011, 12:11 PM
This season is gone. That is truer than true. There is no reason not to play the kids as much as possible. None whatsoever.

Dusty whining that they didn't play him in September? So what. Cry me a river, Dusty.

Krawhitham
09-13-2011, 12:14 PM
Those players had five months to post numbers. That is the whole problem. They didn't post the numbers on a consistent enough basis. That's why the team has nothing to play for in September. I never thought I would live to hear someone say let them play so they can post numbers and make more money after they underperformed for the first five months of the year, effectively eliminating the team from playoff contention. I simply don't understand the thought process of rewarding these same players with more playing time so they can make more money after they lollygagged most of the season. Helping them make more money is a higher priority than trying to get ready for 2012. Unbelievable. Only in Dusty's World.

No one lollygagged

They are 4th in the NL is quality starts
The Pen is in 8th for ERA
They are 2nd in runs scored

Only way all the above can have and still have a team doing this badly is the Manager sucks

The Reds are the only team under .500 with PLUS differential, 95% of the problems all boils down to the way the team was managed

Krawhitham
09-13-2011, 12:16 PM
Dusty whining that they didn't play him in September? So what. Cry me a river, Dusty.

Dusty was playing everyday by the age of 23

texasdave
09-13-2011, 12:20 PM
Dusty was playing everyday by the age of 23

Irrelevant.

texasdave
09-13-2011, 12:21 PM
No one lollygagged

They are 4th in the NL is quality starts
The Pen is in 8th for ERA
They are 2nd in runs scored

Only way all the above can have and still have a team doing this badly is the Manager sucks

The Reds are the only team under .500 with PLUS differential, 95% of the problems all boils down to the way the team was managed

This team's pitching staff was one of the worst in the league.

FireDusty
09-13-2011, 12:31 PM
Do you have any proof for this statement? If you do, then I will change my mind. If you don't, it appears you're putting Dusty in a no win situation where he's to blame when he doesn't, and not deserving of credit when he does.

From that very article:

"There’s been talk about limiting September call-ups or at least limiting how many can be active on a given night.

“I think active on any night is a better solution,” Baker said. “I like that idea. You can see what it’s about and learn"

My Take: Does that not sound like a manager who isn't at all to excited about having september call up? Dusty would like to be able to pick & choose "certain games"

Stray
09-13-2011, 01:40 PM
You are either Dusty's kid or just like to take the side no one else wants to cause conflict

He did not play them until injuries (or trades) required them to play. And yes Walt told Dusty and everyone else in a interview that the team would get a good look at the callups. Now I think Dusty is still playing them less than Walt would like.

If nothing else some of these guys are trade bate and Dusty is making it hard for other teams to get good looks. We have more players than spots at this point

We have
4-8 outfielders (Bruce, Stubbs, Hi-C, Frazier, Sappelt, Alonso, Sappelt, Lewis)
2-4 3rd basemen plus Cairo (Rolen, Francisco, Alonso, Frazier)
1-2 1st basemen plus Cairo (Votto, Alonso)
3 catchers (Hanigan, Hernandez, Mesoraco)
1-3 Short Stops plus Cairo (Janish, Renteria, Valaika)

A couple will be let go but for the others some need to be traded to fill holes

Now we could see what most of these guys can do on a daily basis to raise trade value or to see who should be starting next season or we could let players that already have a track record and trade value pad their stats so the they cost more in the future for someone

Lol neither, I've been consistent with my gripes. I hate what we're doing with Travis Wood, I hate that we didn't shutdown Arroyo, and I hated how Yonder didn't play for a while. Never understood what we were doing with Valaika but didn't really care. Other stuff earlier in the year, but this is the recent stuff. Oh and his use of the bullpen is a head scratcher.

The rest I'm cool with. By playing all of the young guys there are going to be other young guys that don't play every night, and that is going to be an outrage to some people. That makes no sense to me at all. Dusty always has and always will use ALL of the players he has available to him. It's one of the reasons that guys love to play for him. It's part of his managing philosophy to give everyone a chance to contribute. It's just a little shocking that it's still surprising some fans when he gets everyone their starts.

smixsell
09-13-2011, 05:18 PM
This season is gone. That is truer than true. There is no reason not to play the kids as much as possible. None whatsoever.

Dusty whining that they didn't play him in September? So what. Cry me a river, Dusty.

Spot on.

Baseball is a team sport. Sacrificing the good of the team (short or LONG TERM good---read playing the kids) is inexcusable and incompatible with being a winning organization.

The fact that Baker is brazen and/or stupid enough to admit so openly he is doing it shows how clueless he is concerning the real elements of team success. How can you teach players to make team success their top priority when you're willing to admit that you will sacrifice the organization's good so that they can "get their numbers ?!"

Utterly amazing that he still has a job.

Krawhitham
09-13-2011, 07:15 PM
This team's pitching staff was one of the worst in the league.

no they are 4th in the league in quality starts

Then Dusty miss uses the bullpen


For a quality start the worse ERA you can have is 4.5, of all the QS from 1984 to 1991 they were found to have an ERA of 1.91

The Reds score 4.63 runs per game

they have 85 SQ in 147 games this season, last year they had 89 in 162 games

Team ERA this season 4.18, last year 4.01

They are on pace to give up 27 more earned runs this season than last (Arroyo all by himself is on pace for 21 more earned runs)

pitching not the main issue

Todd Gack
09-14-2011, 07:20 AM
Devin Mesoraco is going from a bonafide All Star in waiting to bum because he's not getting 75AB's in September compared to 50.

nux fan
09-14-2011, 09:28 AM
yeah lets play Hernandex and Cairo thats a brilliant idea

CWRed
09-14-2011, 04:24 PM
no they are 4th in the league in quality starts

Then Dusty miss uses the bullpen


For a quality start the worse ERA you can have is 4.5, of all the QS from 1984 to 1991 they were found to have an ERA of 1.91

The Reds score 4.63 runs per game

they have 85 SQ in 147 games this season, last year they had 89 in 162 games

Team ERA this season 4.18, last year 4.01

They are on pace to give up 27 more earned runs this season than last (Arroyo all by himself is on pace for 21 more earned runs)

pitching not the main issue

7th in ML in runs scored. 5th in ML in HR. 12th in ML in BA. Have left too many on base this year but well, so has Boston.

23rd in ML in ERA. 25th in ML in walks. 23rd in Earned Runs Allowed.

Compared to hitting and the rest of the ML THIS year, overall, pitching IS the main issue. Along with Dusty Baker.

Krawhitham
09-14-2011, 07:20 PM
7th in ML in runs scored. 5th in ML in HR. 12th in ML in BA. Have left too many on base this year but well, so has Boston.
It is a good thing we only compete against the NL for playoff spots

2nd in NL in runs scored. 1st in NL in HR. 7th in NL in BA

4th in the NL for Quality Starts

CWRed
09-14-2011, 08:08 PM
It is a good thing we only compete against the NL for playoff spots

2nd in NL in runs scored. 1st in NL in HR. 7th in NL in BA

4th in the NL for Quality Starts

And everybody knows that the Reds being 4th in QS is the end all be all, because the bullpen and all other starts don't matter. :rolleyes:

The NL hitting stats also prove the point that hitting is not really the problem as I stated. Thanks! But I will stop making sense as usual.

Mutaman
09-15-2011, 12:38 AM
I think this team's biggest problem was having 2 left handed batters and Freddy Lewis on the entire team. They simply could not compete against even average right handed pitching.

texasdave
09-15-2011, 12:59 AM
I think this team's biggest problem was having 2 left handed batters and Freddy Lewis on the entire team. They simply could not compete against even average right handed pitching.

I always thought it was better too have too many lefties than righties since you face so much right handed pitching. With Votto, Bruce, Alonso and Franscisco that shouldn't be a problem.