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RedsManRick
09-11-2011, 11:49 AM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/


...You can’t just say: ‘Hey man, you’re not playing anymore.’ Everybody here’s trying to make a living. Everybody here is trying to have a good year. Everybody here is trying get a job for next year, whether it is here or somewhere else. So you do what you can.”

“I was a September call-up. These guys are getting a lot more playing time than I ever got. Everybody is trying to get their numbers. I’m doing what’s best for them and what’s best for the team....

Joey’s trying to get 100 RBI. Jay’s trying to get 100 RBI. Stubbs is trying to get 100 runs. These are things you can’t take back. Brandon is trying to have the best year he can because his contract expires. You try to keep all these things in mind. Whether people understand or not, I don’t have any remorse about it. These guys have been busting their butts all year long.”

I'm not in a clubhouse, so I can't say how common this logic is, but I can't believe Dusty is so brazen about it. He's basically saying that getting guys to round numbers and positioning them for Free Agency is a higher priority than giving playing time to young players who are key parts of our future.

If there were ever a doubt that he's a player's manager, there you go. Nothing like a manager showing his players than their individual stat lines trump what's best for the organization.

Always Red
09-11-2011, 12:11 PM
This has bothered me over the last 2 weeks as well. I'm sure that this kind of thinking goes on all of the time, but I've never heard it spoken aloud before as a reason not to play guys who need to be evaluated and gain experience on the MLB level, men who are going to be on the 2012 Reds team. Frazier, Alonso, Mes- these guys are not going back to Louisville. They're either playing here next year or being traded.

We've got to get Stubby those 100 runs, though, because that proves....nothing. But whatever it is, you can't take it back.

And Fay made a point that Dusty was really peeved to be asked about Mes catching.

WMR
09-11-2011, 12:37 PM
Nauseating.

757690
09-11-2011, 12:57 PM
Nothing like a manager showing his players than their individual stat lines trump what's best for the organization.

I'm not sure that helping players get to individual goals isn't what's best for the organization. Do you really think that Frazier, Sappelt, Mesoraco, Alonso will have their development stunted because the get get 60 PA's each this month instead of 80?

If I'm an MLB player, reaching 100 RBI's or runs scored or 200 K's or any milestone is going to mean a ton to me. It will be something that I can say I did and be proud of for the rest of my life. And it may be irrational, but I would be upset if I only had 99 RBI's instead of 100.

I want a manager who understands me not only as a player, but as person who will have a life after baseball.

westofyou
09-11-2011, 01:03 PM
Dusty lives by this credo said about Dave Bristol:


"What Bristol has done," says Gordy Coleman, "is to restore the self-pride and self-respect of all 25 men. They come to the park knowing that they are going to be used in some way to help win. For a professional athlete it is not enough to stand up when someone else hits a homer and to pat him on the back and shake his hand and then sit down and be through for the day. You have to get a chance to contribute, or you begin to lose your own self-respect."

That's what makes it a team, right?

He'll use everyone, that means he's not playing someone you think should be playing... every day.

It's a reality that it will happen and it's a reality it will peeve you, me, and someone else... and don't expect him to all of the sudden not look at the game from the players POV, because they see it like he does, and that's all that matters to him, not how we see it.

The real question is how does the FO see it?

IslandRed
09-11-2011, 01:14 PM
If there were ever a doubt that he's a player's manager, there you go. Nothing like a manager showing his players than their individual stat lines trump what's best for the organization.

Okay... explain how benching Votto, Bruce, Phillips or Stubbs -- the specific players he mentioned, all of whom are going to be regulars next year -- is what's best for the organization.

Who else is he trying to get numbers for? Nobody. At the other positions that have multiple candidates for next year, it's been a revolving door amongst the guys on the bench for weeks now, about like it should be. Renteria and Janish only play because Cozart can't. Cairo's started one game in the last week. Hernandez is starting today, just his third start in September. He, not Hanigan, is the guy losing time to Mesoraco.

I don't get the issue here, except for generic Dusty-bashing.

osuceltic
09-11-2011, 01:15 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/



I'm not in a clubhouse, so I can't say how common this logic is, but I can't believe Dusty is so brazen about it. He's basically saying that getting guys to round numbers and positioning them for Free Agency is a higher priority than giving playing time to young players who are key parts of our future.

If there were ever a doubt that he's a player's manager, there you go. Nothing like a manager showing his players than their individual stat lines trump what's best for the organization.

Do you want to bench Votto, Bruce, Stubbs or Phillips? Do you think any of those guys would be happy to be benched for a Dave Sappelt tryout? Those are core guys. And yes, they have personal goals. Baseball is a team game, but it's made up of hundreds of individual acts. It isn't like basketball, where a guy going for a personal record could hurt the team. If Bruce sets a goal to drive in 100 runs and he gets there, he's helping the team. Unless, of course, you believe the team would be better with Bruce sitting so we can "see what we have" in Sappelt or Frazier.

These young guys are playing. I don't get this constant whining about this. All of them are getting opportunities. The only guy who seems to warrant more at-bats is Alonso, and he can't play any position other than first. And Votto should not be benched -- can we agree on that?

EDIT: IslandRed beat me to it, and said it better than I did.

marcshoe
09-11-2011, 01:21 PM
Everybody's trying to get their numbers except for me and my monkey.

mth123
09-11-2011, 01:27 PM
Everybody's trying to get their numbers except for me and my monkey.

"Come on, Come on. Come on, Come on..."


Seems like having too many position players who projected to the same spots while having a rotation full of question marks was a problem last year at this time. I can't really blame Dusty for that situation.

The GM could "Make it Easy" by dealing a few of these guys for an arm.

dougdirt
09-11-2011, 01:27 PM
These young guys are playing. I don't get this constant whining about this. All of them are getting opportunities. The only guy who seems to warrant more at-bats is Alonso, and he can't play any position other than first. And Votto should not be benched -- can we agree on that?

EDIT: IslandRed beat me to it, and said it better than I did.

The question that spurred it all was "Will Devin Mesoraco catch Volquez tomorrow?" and that is what put Dusty into a tailspin.

And this will be the 10th game this month. Mesoraco has started TWO. He got plenty of time yesterday, but that was more of a function of Bronson Arroyo absolutely sucking and needing to double switch.

Some guys are getting playing time. Mesoraco, not as much. And lets be honest, Yonder wasn't getting any playing time until Fred Lewis was taken off the team. I don't want or think Mesoraco should start every day. Mostly because he catches and catchers simply don't go every day. But he should be starting 3 out of 5 times with the other guys each getting a start. The Reds are going with Mesoraco next year as their starting catcher whether Dusty likes it or not. He needs the experience now. He has caught every pitcher on the staff this season outside of Arroyo. So it isn't a lack of familiarity that is keeping him from catching these guys.

RedsManRick
09-11-2011, 01:29 PM
You guys are misinterpreting my intent. I understand that there is a very human element to being a team. But, Dusty basically dodged the question by creating a strawman. I've not heard anybody say we should be benching Votto, Phillips or Stubbs. Why did he need to go out of his way to cite those guys and talk about reaching 100 ___s?

Rather, it's a question of why does Hernandez need to start another game? Will it make him a less attractive FA? How about Cairo? He was signed to be a backup and he can't handle not starting for 30 days? Doesn't Mez need every opportunity to learn the pitchers?

At the end of the day, I understand that a half dozen extra starts doesn't make a huge difference. And I'm willing to concede that unhappy players probably don't play as well/as hard. I just don't understand the setting of a precedent that says that the inconsequential personal achievement of veterans is on par with developing young talent for next year's success. Are players going to want to reach round numbers anyways? Sure. But why validate? And to the broader point, what does that have to do with a veteran backup utility IF and a platoon catcher on his way to FA getting starts over guys who could be key contributors next year?

To me, it simply shows that Dusty sees his #1 job as keeping guys happy. And for all I know, maybe that is the way to get the most performance out of a team. But it's never what I was taught by any coach I've ever had.

RANDY IN INDY
09-11-2011, 01:34 PM
I'm not sure that helping players get to individual goals isn't what's best for the organization. Do you really think that Frazier, Sappelt, Mesoraco, Alonso will have their development stunted because the get get 60 PA's each this month instead of 80?

If I'm an MLB player, reaching 100 RBI's or runs scored or 200 K's or any milestone is going to mean a ton to me. It will be something that I can say I did and be proud of for the rest of my life. And it may be irrational, but I would be upset if I only had 99 RBI's instead of 100.

I want a manager who understands me not only as a player, but as person who will have a life after baseball.


Okay... explain how benching Votto, Bruce, Phillips or Stubbs -- the specific players he mentioned, all of whom are going to be regulars next year -- is what's best for the organization.

Who else is he trying to get numbers for? Nobody. At the other positions that have multiple candidates for next year, it's been a revolving door amongst the guys on the bench for weeks now, about like it should be. Renteria and Janish only play because Cozart can't. Cairo's started one game in the last week. Hernandez is starting today, just his third start in September. He, not Hanigan, is the guy losing time to Mesoraco.

I don't get the issue here, except for generic Dusty-bashing.
:beerme:

Ron Madden
09-11-2011, 01:57 PM
Do you want to bench Votto, Bruce, Stubbs or Phillips? Do you think any of those guys would be happy to be benched for a Dave Sappelt tryout? Those are core guys. And yes, they have personal goals. Baseball is a team game, but it's made up of hundreds of individual acts. It isn't like basketball, where a guy going for a personal record could hurt the team. If Bruce sets a goal to drive in 100 runs and he gets there, he's helping the team. Unless, of course, you believe the team would be better with Bruce sitting so we can "see what we have" in Sappelt or Frazier.

These young guys are playing. I don't get this constant whining about this. All of them are getting opportunities. The only guy who seems to warrant more at-bats is Alonso, and he can't play any position other than first. And Votto should not be benched -- can we agree on that?

EDIT: IslandRed beat me to it, and said it better than I did.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread suggest that Votto, Bruce or Phillips should be benched.

The issue is Hernandez getting playing time over Mesoraco.

IslandRed
09-11-2011, 02:57 PM
At the end of the day, I understand that a half dozen extra starts doesn't make a huge difference. And I'm willing to concede that unhappy players probably don't play as well/as hard. I just don't understand the setting of a precedent that says that the inconsequential personal achievement of veterans is on par with developing young talent for next year's success.

I just think there's a balance where we can get the kids plenty of playing time without completely burying guys who have given the team good service and having word get out that Cincinnati is a bad career choice for those who have choices. The organization has generally remade itself into one known as player-friendly and a class act, and it's to its overall long-term benefit, in my opinion. If that means we go with a three-headed catcher this month instead of effectively telling Ramon Hernandez to pack up and hit the road, I can live with that.

mth123
09-11-2011, 03:30 PM
The same people who said "don't give him away without a good offer" are saying that Ramon shouldn't play at all. Its why I was all for salary relief and a fringe prospect being enough to deal him at the end of August. It would be a non-issue and there would have been plenty of time for Mes to get to know the pitchers.

This is a GM issue. The Manager can't just bury guys with no PT. If the plan was for Mesoraco to get a lot of time with the pitchers, a deal should have been made. The Reds could have added Corky as a 3rd catcher with little PT and a pre-arranged move where Corky would basically be like an extra coach available to play in emergency situations. This was a simple thing to solve and again the GM didn't come through.

Ron Madden
09-11-2011, 03:36 PM
The same people who said "don't give him away without a good offer" are saying that Ramon shouldn't play at all. Its why I was all for salary relief and a fringe prospect being enough to deal him at the end of August. It would be a non-issue and there would have been plenty of time for Mes to get to know the pitchers.

This is a GM issue. The Manager can't just bury guys with no PT. If the plan was for Mesoraco to get a lot of time with the pitchers, a deal should have been made. The Reds could have added Corky as a 3rd catcher with little PT and a pre-arranged move where Corky would basically be like an extra coach available to play in emergenvy situations. This was a simple thing to solve and again the GM didn't come through.
.
I was in favor of trading Hernandez for anything in return because I think it would be foolish to offer him arbitration.

edabbs44
09-11-2011, 07:05 PM
To me, it simply shows that Dusty sees his #1 job as keeping guys happy. And for all I know, maybe that is the way to get the most performance out of a team. But it's never what I was taught by any coach I've ever had.

I think it is one way to get good performance out of a team. And, unless you played professionally, I wouldn't compare your experiences with roster management to this situation.

RANDY IN INDY
09-11-2011, 07:42 PM
Good point.

dougdirt
09-11-2011, 10:53 PM
I think it is one way to get good performance out of a team. And, unless you played professionally, I wouldn't compare your experiences with roster management to this situation.

Next question.... at this point in the season, why does good performance outweigh figuring out 2012?

edabbs44
09-12-2011, 07:01 AM
Next question.... at this point in the season, why does good performance outweigh figuring out 2012?

If you were a FA and were deciding on a team, would you sign with someone who will outright bench you for the last month or two if the team falls out of it?

I totally get the point and think that these guys should definitely see some time, but there is probably more to it than we know.

jojo
09-12-2011, 07:20 AM
Next question.... at this point in the season, why does good performance outweigh figuring out 2012?

It doesn't.

blumj
09-12-2011, 09:11 AM
Except that how call ups perform in Sept. isn't any more useful in figuring out what to do with them than how they perform in spring training is. The team should already know them and what they can and can't do from their minor league careers. Just getting comfortable and used to being in the majors and getting the opportunity to work with the major league coaching staff, like spring, is probably more important than getting them a lot of playing time or how they play when they do.

cumberlandreds
09-12-2011, 09:27 AM
The Reds needs to be figuring out who can help them and who can't in 2012. Dusty just keeps on proving to me he wants to play the vets to try to up his own win total and doesn't really care about next season until it is here. Just really the wrong way to approach things at this time of year. I know the Reds aren't going to do it but I really wish they would change managers. Get someone who will be more athoratative with the youngs guys. Not pander to them and expect the vets like Rolen,Renteria etc... to mete out the discipline when needed.

Caveat Emperor
09-12-2011, 09:28 AM
If you were a FA and were deciding on a team, would you sign with someone who will outright bench you for the last month or two if the team falls out of it?

Free agents care about money and, to some extent, opportunity to win. Any other concern can be solved by adding more money.

westofyou
09-12-2011, 09:46 AM
Here are the Reds stats for this month. Sorted by AB's

Who's getting screwed?

http://espn.go.com/mlb/team/stats/batting/_/name/cin/cat/atBats/split/45/cincinnati-reds

And for a moment let's also pretend that catching a ballgame is more than donning the gear and getting some abs

oneupper
09-12-2011, 09:55 AM
Dusty needs to keep everyone healthy and happy, since there are no other team incentives. That seems to be what he's trying to do. Don't really see a problem with that.
The "kids" have also played their full seasons in the minors. No reason to push anyone too hard.

bucksfan2
09-12-2011, 10:08 AM
When do we consider that Mes has caught more games this season than in the rest of his career? When do we consider that catching takes a toll on players? When do we consider that both Ramon and Hanigan both have caught less games than Mes?

The last thing I want to see happen is Mes get hurt because his body is worn down. Even if its minor it would hurt off season work and his preparedness for the 2012 season. Maybe Dusty doesn't have it out for Mes just wants to get him some reps as well as prepare him for 2012.

lollipopcurve
09-12-2011, 10:27 AM
Not a big fan of the numbers comment, and not a big fan of him pointing out which players are deserving of staying in the lineup to attain which numbers. IMO, Dusty needs to show more balance and perspective in a situation like this. He's not managing just to help certain guys hit certain numerical thresholds -- that may be part of what he's doing, but it's not all that he's doing, and he needs to do a better job of communicating that when he's with the media.

Again, I'm not 100% convinced Dusty would do a good job of transitioning to a lineup that could include some real young bats next year, especially if he's in the last year of a deal. Interesting evaluation for Jocketty at this point, although of course the owner is probably holding the hammer on that one.

IslandRed
09-12-2011, 10:56 AM
Free agents care about money and, to some extent, opportunity to win. Any other concern can be solved by adding more money.

Well, if we carry a reputation as a bunch of jerks into a negotiation, yeah, I guess we'd better be high bidder.

Problem is, I missed the part where the Reds turned into a team that could win at checkbook baseball. :p

TRF
09-12-2011, 11:11 AM
If you were a FA and were deciding on a team, would you sign with someone who will outright bench you for the last month or two if the team falls out of it?

I totally get the point and think that these guys should definitely see some time, but there is probably more to it than we know.

omigod.

i actually agree.

redsmetz
09-12-2011, 12:32 PM
Everybody's trying to get their numbers except for me and my monkey.

:laugh: and :thumbup:

And when we do year end awards, I vote for a new category "Best Beatles Reference" - :rockband:

dougdirt
09-12-2011, 12:49 PM
If you were a FA and were deciding on a team, would you sign with someone who will outright bench you for the last month or two if the team falls out of it?

I totally get the point and think that these guys should definitely see some time, but there is probably more to it than we know.

I really don't think free agents that make a difference are going to be worried about what happens 3-5 Septembers from now.

_Sir_Charles_
09-12-2011, 01:20 PM
I'm not sure that helping players get to individual goals isn't what's best for the organization. Do you really think that Frazier, Sappelt, Mesoraco, Alonso will have their development stunted because the get get 60 PA's each this month instead of 80?

If I'm an MLB player, reaching 100 RBI's or runs scored or 200 K's or any milestone is going to mean a ton to me. It will be something that I can say I did and be proud of for the rest of my life. And it may be irrational, but I would be upset if I only had 99 RBI's instead of 100.

I want a manager who understands me not only as a player, but as person who will have a life after baseball.

:thumbup:

People act as though the rookies are the only players who have a future with the club. In Baker's comments, he mentioned Bruce, Votto, Phillips, Stubbs IIRC. I'm fairly certain those guys ALSO have a future with this ball club. And I also agree with his sentiment that the guys have busted their butts all season long, they deserve to finish what they started. The kids will get their reps in, starting them everyday simply isn't needed to see what they've got.

_Sir_Charles_
09-12-2011, 01:27 PM
The question that spurred it all was "Will Devin Mesoraco catch Volquez tomorrow?" and that is what put Dusty into a tailspin.

And this will be the 10th game this month. Mesoraco has started TWO. He got plenty of time yesterday, but that was more of a function of Bronson Arroyo absolutely sucking and needing to double switch.

Some guys are getting playing time. Mesoraco, not as much. And lets be honest, Yonder wasn't getting any playing time until Fred Lewis was taken off the team. I don't want or think Mesoraco should start every day. Mostly because he catches and catchers simply don't go every day. But he should be starting 3 out of 5 times with the other guys each getting a start. The Reds are going with Mesoraco next year as their starting catcher whether Dusty likes it or not. He needs the experience now. He has caught every pitcher on the staff this season outside of Arroyo. So it isn't a lack of familiarity that is keeping him from catching these guys.

This is NOT set in stone. Hanigan has shown that he can produce at the MLB level and is a very solid defensive catcher. I can easily see them splitting time 60-40 or 50-50 with Hanny getting the larger portion of the time.

If you're thinking that Devin should be starting 3 out of every 5 games from here on out...what about Hanigan and Hernandez? 1 out of every 5 games each? Or 2 out of 5 for Hanny and just say screw Hernandez? Simply put, it won't happen. Both of our catchers (RH/RH) have had very good runs with the Reds and will not be shoved aside for the final month. He'll do his best to work everybody in there. Besides, Devin is most likely getting lots of reps with the pitchers in practice. He'll get some PH appearances too. I just don't get this whole mentality around here that we should just bench the guys who won't be here next year just to play the kids full-time.

dougdirt
09-12-2011, 02:04 PM
This is NOT set in stone. Hanigan has shown that he can produce at the MLB level and is a very solid defensive catcher. I can easily see them splitting time 60-40 or 50-50 with Hanny getting the larger portion of the time.
And I can easily see the Reds being the only team in the world who would call up the best prospect in their system and burying him behind bit players. Again. Hanigan has his spot on the roster, and I get that, especially at catcher, but there is no reason that Mesoraco shouldn't get a 70-30 split on playing time at catcher next season.



If you're thinking that Devin should be starting 3 out of every 5 games from here on out...what about Hanigan and Hernandez? 1 out of every 5 games each? Or 2 out of 5 for Hanny and just say screw Hernandez? Simply put, it won't happen. Both of our catchers (RH/RH) have had very good runs with the Reds and will not be shoved aside for the final month. He'll do his best to work everybody in there. Besides, Devin is most likely getting lots of reps with the pitchers in practice. He'll get some PH appearances too. I just don't get this whole mentality around here that we should just bench the guys who won't be here next year just to play the kids full-time.

Yes, at this point in the season, one game for each and three for Mesoraco. As for him getting reps in practice.... why is that needed? He has caught everyone on the roster THIS SEASON with the exception of Arroyo, who he probably did catch in spring training.

If you don't get why getting Mesoraco MLB playing time over Hernandez, there is no way to convince you otherwise because you clearly think the exact opposite of the majority (both in and out of baseball) that when you have no shot of winning anything and it is September and you bring up your best prospect, you play him. You play him often. Especially when the guy(s) they would be playing over are (a) free agents or (b) platoon partners are best.

_Sir_Charles_
09-12-2011, 02:14 PM
And I can easily see the Reds being the only team in the world who would call up the best prospect in their system and burying him behind bit players. Again. Hanigan has his spot on the roster, and I get that, especially at catcher, but there is no reason that Mesoraco shouldn't get a 70-30 split on playing time at catcher next season.

This is what I'd prefer they do, but I don't think they will. Unless Devin's bat gets extremely hot that is. If Devin is hitting around .250 with middling power...I'd be shocked if Hanigan didn't get the edge in terms of # of starts. But the bottom line is that Devin will be a rookie in 2012 and he'll get a fair opportunity to play and to earn additional playing time. But to pen him in as a 70% starter before he's really done anything at the MLB level is kind of foolish.


Yes, at this point in the season, one game for each and three for Mesoraco. As for him getting reps in practice.... why is that needed? He has caught everyone on the roster THIS SEASON with the exception of Arroyo, who he probably did catch in spring training.

If you don't get why getting Mesoraco MLB playing time over Hernandez, there is no way to convince you otherwise because you clearly think the exact opposite of the majority (both in and out of baseball) that when you have no shot of winning anything and it is September and you bring up your best prospect, you play him. You play him often. Especially when the guy(s) they would be playing over are (a) free agents or (b) platoon partners are best.

My point was more along the lines of why are we getting so worked up over the number of starts & ab's. He's getting playing time and he's getting reps and he's getting ab's. If he were getting put to sleep, I could understand the outcry...but that's not happening. Look at that link that WoY posted. Where are the rookies who are getting put to sleep?

Ron Madden
09-12-2011, 02:15 PM
:thumbup:

People act as though the rookies are the only players who have a future with the club. In Baker's comments, he mentioned Bruce, Votto, Phillips, Stubbs IIRC. I'm fairly certain those guys ALSO have a future with this ball club. And I also agree with his sentiment that the guys have busted their butts all season long, they deserve to finish what they started. The kids will get their reps in, starting them everyday simply isn't needed to see what they've got.

Again. Neither John Fay or Anyone in this thread has suggested benching Votto, Bruce or Phillips. The question Fay ask Dusty was about Hernandez starting over Mesoraco.

westofyou
09-12-2011, 02:37 PM
Again. Neither John Fay or Anyone in this thread has suggested benching Votto, Bruce or Phillips. The question Fay ask Dusty was about Hernandez starting over Mesoraco.

And yet DM has more ab's than RH this month, and very likely will continue to be this way.

Hardly worth getting all Aunt Bee over.

Oh...Andy!!

RANDY IN INDY
09-12-2011, 02:40 PM
:laugh:

_Sir_Charles_
09-12-2011, 02:47 PM
Since Devin was called up.....

2nd: Ramon
3rd: Ryan
4th: Ryan
It was stated early on that Devin would take a few days to get acclimated before starting.
5th: Devin
6th: Devin
7th: Ramon
8th: Off
9th: Ryan
10: Ryan
11: Ramon

So, since Devin finished his "prep time" prior to starting...each of the 3 catchers have gotten 2 starts each. Where's the problem again?

Ron Madden
09-12-2011, 02:48 PM
:laugh:

mbgrayson
09-12-2011, 02:50 PM
The other person that should get less playing time is Drew Stubbs.

With Heisey and Alonso both hitting well, why not play Alonso in left, and Heisey in center, for some games. This would have the added benefit reducing Stubb's strikeout number, although it would impede him from scoring 100 runs, which is apparently the stat he is gunning for.

Some stats:

2011 Overall
Stubbs: 562 ABs, .249/.324/.374/.698 with 15 HRs, 42 RBIs, 89 runs, and 188 Ks.
Heisey: 235 ABs, .251/.305/.485/.790 with 15 HRs, 43 RBIs, 40 runs, and 65 Ks.
Alonso: 62 ABs, .403/.464/.661/1.125 with 4 HRs, 13 RBIs, 7 runs, and 13 Ks.

I don't doubt that Stubbs may be better defensively.

In 2011, Stubbs has a zone rating of 9.924, and a range factor of 2.53.

In left field, Heisey has a zone rating of 11.850, and a range factor of 2.09. In center, his numbers are 13.26 and 1.88 in only 19 total chances.

If we are going to keep running Stubbs out there, we should be making him work on bunting, or choking up when he gets 2 strikes, or something. He seems totally overmatched so often. In September, he is hitting .219 with 0 HRs in 32 ABs so far. What good is that doing for the 2012 Reds?

Ron Madden
09-12-2011, 02:55 PM
Since Devin was called up.....

2nd: Ramon
3rd: Ryan
4th: Ryan
It was stated early on that Devin would take a few days to get acclimated before starting.
5th: Devin
6th: Devin
7th: Ramon
8th: Off
9th: Ryan
10: Ryan
11: Ramon

So, since Devin finished his "prep time" prior to starting...each of the 3 catchers have gotten 2 starts each. Where's the problem again?

I guess my problem is giving Hernandez starts over Mesoraco.

I'd rather see Devin play in order to become more familiar with the pitching staff in hopes that it may help in 2012. IMHO starting Hernandez does nothing to help improve this club in 2012.

_Sir_Charles_
09-12-2011, 03:25 PM
I guess my problem is giving Hernandez starts over Mesoraco.

I'd rather see Devin play in order to become more familiar with the pitching staff in hopes that it may help in 2012. IMHO starting Hernandez does nothing to help improve this club in 2012.

Yes, starting Ramon does nothing to help us in 2012. However, it's still 2011 and Ramon has played very well all year long and certainly doesn't deserve to be flat out BENCHED either. Just because a guy isn't going to be here next year doesn't mean we should treat a guy (who has played well and worked his tail off) like he has the plague. Considering the limited amount of time left in the season, I highly doubt that an additional 10-20 ab's will make much of any difference at all in the Reds ability to evaluate Devin. He's getting his feet wet. Next spring training and next year will be his true initiation.

_Sir_Charles_
09-12-2011, 03:30 PM
Btw...today


Phillips 4, Sappelt 8, Votto 3, Bruce 9, Alonso 7, Mesoraco 2, Francisco 5, Janish 6, Willis 1

So, cue the "Frazier isn't getting enough playing time" thread. :laugh:

Caveat Emperor
09-12-2011, 03:42 PM
So, since Devin finished his "prep time" prior to starting...each of the 3 catchers have gotten 2 starts each. Where's the problem again?

That's 2 starts too many for RH, regardless of what Dusty thinks. The guy is gone in FA, and he's put up more than enough numbers to get a nice chunk of change someplace else. His happiness as the season finishes with a resounding "thud" is absolutely the least of my concerns if I'm running a team.

_Sir_Charles_
09-12-2011, 03:51 PM
Mesoraco 513 pa's
Hernandez 310 pa's
Hanigan 301 pa's

So, no concern about Devin's workload this season? I see little reason to push the majority of starts on his shoulders.

cumberlandreds
09-12-2011, 04:00 PM
Btw...today



So, cue the "Frazier isn't getting enough playing time" thread. :laugh:

Put Frazier at SS. We know Janish can't hit.

RANDY IN INDY
09-12-2011, 05:42 PM
I don't think a few games played in September is going to do a lot to help the club in 2012. What will help is if everyone comes to camp healthy and Walt does something over the winter to improve the team.

marcshoe
09-12-2011, 08:18 PM
Put Frazier at SS. We know Janish can't hit.

After somebody tweeted to Jim Day that the Reds should put Votto to left, I responded that Joey was a natural fit to fill the hole at shortstop. The idiot Day was answering tweeted back at me thinking I was serious and cussing me. :p

dougdirt
09-12-2011, 11:03 PM
Mesoraco 513 pa's
Hernandez 310 pa's
Hanigan 301 pa's

So, no concern about Devin's workload this season? I see little reason to push the majority of starts on his shoulders.

Tonight was only Devin's 100 start at catcher though. Louisville gets the DH often and Devin often got to use that spot. Including the game in Colorado where he came in for Hanigan after Arroyo stunk up the joint, this was really only his 101st game at catcher. So no, not really concerned about his workload.

Ron Madden
09-13-2011, 02:59 AM
That's 2 starts too many for RH, regardless of what Dusty thinks. The guy is gone in FA, and he's put up more than enough numbers to get a nice chunk of change someplace else. His happiness as the season finishes with a resounding "thud" is absolutely the least of my concerns if I'm running a team.

Shame on you for doubting the wisdom of Dusty Baker!

How many MLB games have you played in or Managed?

It's quite evident that you're not a "True Reds Fan". ;)

Ron Madden
09-13-2011, 03:01 AM
Tonight was only Devin's 100 start at catcher though. Louisville gets the DH often and Devin often got to use that spot. Including the game in Colorado where he came in for Hanigan after Arroyo stunk up the joint, this was really only his 101st game at catcher. So no, not really concerned about his workload.

You're just being Negative! ;)

westofyou
09-13-2011, 09:24 AM
Shame on you for doubting the wisdom of Dusty Baker!

How many MLB games have you played in or Managed?

It's quite evident that you're not a "True Reds Fan". ;)

Don't recall many arguments framed that way myself, guess I should read the cliff notes more closely

Bumstead
09-13-2011, 09:54 AM
As to the players being miffed about missing milestones...Boo hoo...there, I hope they feel better. I bowled a 599 multiple times and got over it, I even bowled a 699 a few times and got over it....hell, I have bowled 649 (have to bowl 650 to get in the paper) and I didn't even care...I averaged 199 for a full season twice, and went ahead and bowled on the same team next season....You don't care about my milestones and I don't care about any milestones on this team either. This season is lost, it's time to figure out who is playing next season, so that this season isn't repeated.

Obviously, Bruce, Votto and Stubbs should be playing most of the time and if they produce they will get their little numbers and we can all do a little dance with Dusty about it. As for Ramon and Ryan starting most of the games over Mes, it makes no sense at all. Their aren't even any numbers for those 2 to obtain...Just more of Dusty being Dusty. Hopefully the Reds can find a manager that meshes with this organization shortly.

Bum

westofyou
09-13-2011, 09:58 AM
As for Ramon and Ryan starting most of the games over Mes, it makes no sense at all. Their aren't even any numbers for those 2 to obtain.
Hernandez hasn't "started" more games than DM. And in the case of the catcher he's not just in their for himself, he's in there for the pitcher. Hernandez has started 2 Cueto games and a Volquez Game. Chances are the was in there to help THEIR game, not his.

The meta data says those up in arms are overreacting.

Bumstead
09-13-2011, 10:03 AM
Hernandez hasn't "started" more games than DM. And in the case of the catcher he's not just in their for himself, he's in their for the pitcher. Hernandez has started 2 Cueto games and a Volquez Game. Chances are the was in their to help THEIR game, not his.

The meta data says those up in arms are overreacting.

I meant Ramon and Ryan together starting more games than Mes...As to Cueto and Voquez having THEIR own catcher theoretically for communication purposes...well, Ramon won't be in Cincy next season so maybe they should work on THEIR communication with Mes...In other words, I am not concerned about THEIR preferences at the TEAM's expense. This TEAM is looking toward next year and Mes is our catcher next year in all likelihood.

As to over-reacting: maybe some of us have just had enough and Dusty's, er the TEAM's, record this season isn't good enough for a pass "again."

Bum

Caveat Emperor
09-13-2011, 12:45 PM
The meta data says those up in arms are overreacting.

Probably -- but I think it's better for everyone's game if they get as much experience as possible with next year's everyday catcher. That's especially true for Cueto, who the team will need to be successful if they harbor any hope of competing in 2012.

TRF
09-13-2011, 01:20 PM
Probably -- but I think it's better for everyone's game if they get as much experience as possible with next year's everyday catcher. That's especially true for Cueto, who the team will need to be successful if they harbor any hope of competing in 2012.

maybe. or maybe the 2.5 hours of game time is only part of the acclimation. maybe there is time in the locker room, pregame meetings, post game meetings, post game get togethers, batting practice, bullpen sessions, plane rides....

maybe all those things taken together help the communication as much as say Mes and Ramon watching a game Hanigan is catching and Mes maybe asking a few questions.


And maybe all of those things taken together, easing Mesoraco in is the best way to ensure he succeeds.

Hoosier Red
09-13-2011, 02:35 PM
As to the players being miffed about missing milestones...Boo hoo...there, I hope they feel better. I bowled a 599 multiple times and got over it, I even bowled a 699 a few times and got over it....hell, I have bowled 649 (have to bowl 650 to get in the paper) and I didn't even care...I averaged 199 for a full season twice, and went ahead and bowled on the same team next season....You don't care about my milestones and I don't care about any milestones on this team either. This season is lost, it's time to figure out who is playing next season, so that this season isn't repeated.



I disagree. 1)I haven't heard of a single player who is "miffed" about missing milestones. 2) I think this is what good managers do, they take care of their players. It gives them more credibility when they then ask the player to sacrifice for the good of the team.

I understand that there's a lot of benefit to playing the young kids, but lets be honest, there is at least some benefit to the kids coming up and simply acclimating themselves to the big league clubhouse. There is some benefit to playing for a few days, then sitting back and taking it in.

What's the difference in benefit? Is it tangible? The players OTOH know that getting 100 runs, or 100 RBI or even just 5 or 10 more hits will provide tangible benefits. If they're looking for a new contract, it gives them more leverage. If they're going to be free agents it makes them look that much more attractive to potential suitors. Heck, even if they're going to just be here, it will make the numbers on the back of the baseball card look prettier.

There's nothing tangible about experience, that doesn't mean it's not valuable, but it's hard to tell how much you need, and if 30 games is necessarily better than 15 or 20.

_Sir_Charles_
09-13-2011, 04:16 PM
maybe. or maybe the 2.5 hours of game time is only part of the acclimation. maybe there is time in the locker room, pregame meetings, post game meetings, post game get togethers, batting practice, bullpen sessions, plane rides....

maybe all those things taken together help the communication as much as say Mes and Ramon watching a game Hanigan is catching and Mes maybe asking a few questions.


And maybe all of those things taken together, easing Mesoraco in is the best way to ensure he succeeds.

Hey! Don't go throwing stuff like LOGIC into this discussion! How rude. :O)

Slyder
09-13-2011, 04:46 PM
If you were a FA and were deciding on a team, would you sign with someone who will outright bench you for the last month or two if the team falls out of it?

I totally get the point and think that these guys should definitely see some time, but there is probably more to it than we know.

Then we should have traded the veterans we have to teams that have interest and shown potential 1 year rentals that we're not going to waste your time.

Come here and produce and we will let you have a chance to play in a pennant race... whether its for us or someone else.

Trade Hernandez while he had value/interest and a lot of this is moot.

dougdirt
09-13-2011, 04:48 PM
I disagree. 1)I haven't heard of a single player who is "miffed" about missing milestones. 2) I think this is what good managers do, they take care of their players. It gives them more credibility when they then ask the player to sacrifice for the good of the team.

I understand that there's a lot of benefit to playing the young kids, but lets be honest, there is at least some benefit to the kids coming up and simply acclimating themselves to the big league clubhouse. There is some benefit to playing for a few days, then sitting back and taking it in.

What's the difference in benefit? Is it tangible? The players OTOH know that getting 100 runs, or 100 RBI or even just 5 or 10 more hits will provide tangible benefits. If they're looking for a new contract, it gives them more leverage. If they're going to be free agents it makes them look that much more attractive to potential suitors. Heck, even if they're going to just be here, it will make the numbers on the back of the baseball card look prettier.

There's nothing tangible about experience, that doesn't mean it's not valuable, but it's hard to tell how much you need, and if 30 games is necessarily better than 15 or 20.

Do you really believe that 100 RBI is going to get you more money than 97? Or that 100 runs is going to get you more money than 95? This isn't 1972. Teams these days realize that those types of stats, while have some meaning, are far down the totem pole on things you sign a guy for.

edabbs44
09-13-2011, 06:36 PM
Probably -- but I think it's better for everyone's game if they get as much experience as possible with next year's everyday catcher. That's especially true for Cueto, who the team will need to be successful if they harbor any hope of competing in 2012.

Food for thought...and I'm not saying that this is an absolute, but is it wise to turn your back on a guy just because he is a pending FA? What happens if Mes gets his starts and looks less than Janish? What if Walt knows that Team A is hot for Mes and is willing to discuss a legit LFer, requiring one more year of Ramon? Or what if Hanigan gets Posey'd next week? Maybe the goal is to keep all avenues open while getting Mes acclimated to life in the show. I'm not sure that 5 or so starts for Mes is the difference between him succeeding and failing next year.

Hoosier Red
09-13-2011, 06:43 PM
Do you really believe that 100 RBI is going to get you more money than 97? Or that 100 runs is going to get you more money than 95? This isn't 1972. Teams these days realize that those types of stats, while have some meaning, are far down the totem pole on things you sign a guy for.

Probably not, but I bet Drew Stubbs does. :) Do you honestly believe that it makes that much of a difference whether Yonder gets 100 PA or 97 PA this year?

dougdirt
09-13-2011, 07:00 PM
Probably not, but I bet Drew Stubbs does. :) Do you honestly believe that it makes that much of a difference whether Yonder gets 100 PA or 97 PA this year?


It makes more of a difference than Drew Stubbs getting 97 runs or 100.

dougdirt
09-13-2011, 07:03 PM
Food for thought...and I'm not saying that this is an absolute, but is it wise to turn your back on a guy just because he is a pending FA? What happens if Mes gets his starts and looks less than Janish? What if Walt knows that Team A is hot for Mes and is willing to discuss a legit LFer, requiring one more year of Ramon? Or what if Hanigan gets Posey'd next week? Maybe the goal is to keep all avenues open while getting Mes acclimated to life in the show. I'm not sure that 5 or so starts for Mes is the difference between him succeeding and failing next year.

If Walt is exploring trading Mesoraco for a left fielder, I am no longer concerned about much. We would be in big trouble.

westofyou
09-13-2011, 07:23 PM
Arb loves those round numbers, despite the obvious people are drawn to round numbers, players (unfortunately) are people and are prone to this phenomena as well.

edabbs44
09-13-2011, 09:03 PM
If Walt is exploring trading Mesoraco for a left fielder, I am no longer concerned about much. We would be in big trouble.

If he could fill a gap with a legit return and had Ramon/Hanigan for one more year until Grandal was ready, I'd be willing to listen.

757690
09-13-2011, 09:18 PM
If Walt is exploring trading Mesoraco for a left fielder, I am no longer concerned about much. We would be in big trouble.

This might be the only time Stubbs will be able to reach a milestone like 100 runs. That is something he can talk about the rest of his ife, that he scored 100 runs in the major leagues. It's illogical, but I doubt he will ever bring up that he scored 99, and if he did, it will be with regret that he didn't get 100.

I dated a girl who had a 3.99 GPA at Ohio State and decade later, she is still bitter she didn't get a 4.0.

dougdirt
09-13-2011, 11:34 PM
This might be the only time Stubbs will be able to reach a milestone like 100 runs. That is something he can talk about the rest of his ife, that he scored 100 runs in the major leagues. It's illogical, but I doubt he will ever bring up that he scored 99, and if he did, it will be with regret that he didn't get 100.

I dated a girl who had a 3.99 GPA at Ohio State and decade later, she is still bitter she didn't get a 4.0.

Difference is, no one else was causing her grades to be below 4.0 but her. Drew Stubbs doesn't score runs on his own. He has to get on base first, then he has to rely on someone else to drive him in.

757690
09-14-2011, 12:44 AM
Difference is, no one else was causing her grades to be below 4.0 but her. Drew Stubbs doesn't score runs on his own. He has to get on base first, then he has to rely on someone else to drive him in.

Actually, that's not what she says, lol.

Anyway, I think it's silly, but I can imagine it means more to some players than it should.

fearofpopvol1
09-14-2011, 01:10 AM
I'm not sure what I find more appalling, Dusty's comments or some of the comments in this thread.

These are grown men, not little boys (although from the sounds of it some may think they would act like little boys if they didn't get their playing time).

If Dusty pulls these guys back a few extra games for the greater good of the team and the future, I'm sure they'll understand.

Do you really think Ramon doesn't know that the team wants to get a look at Mez and that he's not part of the long term future of the club? Seriously? Stick Alonso in LF. Even with the defensive blunders, at least the team can get him some ABs to determine what to do moving forward.

Ron Madden
09-14-2011, 04:16 AM
Hey! Don't go throwing stuff like LOGIC into this discussion! How rude. :O)


No offense Sir Charles but sometimes I wonder if you would know LOGIC if it flew between your pom poms and smacked you right between the eyes. ;)

Ron Madden
09-14-2011, 04:17 AM
Then we should have traded the veterans we have to teams that have interest and shown potential 1 year rentals that we're not going to waste your time.

Come here and produce and we will let you have a chance to play in a pennant race... whether its for us or someone else.

Trade Hernandez while he had value/interest and a lot of this is moot.


That's all I'm sayin',

Ron Madden
09-14-2011, 04:23 AM
Arb loves those round numbers, despite the obvious people are drawn to round numbers, players (unfortunately) are people and are prone to this phenomena as well.

Yep, People are Human and all humans make mistakes. I guess that's why they put the rubber on the other end of pencils and spell check on computers. ;)

Ron Madden
09-14-2011, 04:30 AM
Do you really believe that 100 RBI is going to get you more money than 97? Or that 100 runs is going to get you more money than 95? This isn't 1972. Teams these days realize that those types of stats, while have some meaning, are far down the totem pole on things you sign a guy for.

Agreed. Those stats are team dependent, they count but they are not true indicators of individual production.

IslandRed
09-14-2011, 11:20 AM
These are grown men, not little boys (although from the sounds of it some may think they would act like little boys if they didn't get their playing time).

If Dusty pulls these guys back a few extra games for the greater good of the team and the future, I'm sure they'll understand.

In the case of Hernandez, we're not talking about cutting PT a little -- the argument is that he should have been shelved completely when Mesoraco came up. Call it "acting like a little boy" all you want, but you wouldn't like it if it happened to you. At least, not unless you were a member of the oft-scorned group, Ballplayers Who Are Just Cashing Paychecks.

And I find it amusing that in a numbers-dominated sport, where we non-participants spend endless time dissecting players' numbers and analyzing metrics based on those numbers and assigning value to them based on their numbers, and ripping management decisions that don't fit what we think the numbers say are the right thing to do, we're saying players shouldn't care about their numbers. (Apparently, they're the only ones who aren't supposed to care.) But they do. They've always cared, they always will.

Maybe it's a little questionable for Dusty to openly care, but the only people he mentioned as pursuing milestones are guys I'm not intending to bench. Overall (not in every specific micro-instance, but overall) I'm okay with how the PT has been allocated lately.

lollipopcurve
09-14-2011, 11:22 AM
Maybe it's a little questionable for Dusty to openly care, but the only people he mentioned as pursuing milestones are guys I'm not intending to bench. Overall (not in every specific micro-instance, but overall) I'm okay with how the PT has been allocated lately.

Agreed. The exception for me is Stubbs. I wish they were putting a little more heat on him, competition-wise.

_Sir_Charles_
09-14-2011, 11:40 AM
No offense Sir Charles but sometimes I wonder if you would know LOGIC if it flew between your pom poms and smacked you right between the eyes. ;)

LOL. Well played. :beerme:

Caveat Emperor
09-14-2011, 01:37 PM
In the case of Hernandez, we're not talking about cutting PT a little -- the argument is that he should have been shelved completely when Mesoraco came up. Call it "acting like a little boy" all you want, but you wouldn't like it if it happened to you. At least, not unless you were a member of the oft-scorned group, Ballplayers Who Are Just Cashing Paychecks.

That's baseball -- older talent gives way to younger ballplayers all the time. There's always someone left holding the bag when a minor leaguer gets called up to play everyday.

Does Hernandez like it? Probably no more than Scott Hatteberg liked it when Joey Votto was called up and took his spot at 1st base. That's part of playing the game, though. Someone sat for Hernandez when he got the call, he'll sit for someone else in the twilight of his career.

It's cyclical like that.

edabbs44
09-14-2011, 01:52 PM
That's baseball -- older talent gives way to younger ballplayers all the time. There's always someone left holding the bag when a minor leaguer gets called up to play everyday.

Does Hernandez like it? Probably no more than Scott Hatteberg liked it when Joey Votto was called up and took his spot at 1st base. That's part of playing the game, though. Someone sat for Hernandez when he got the call, he'll sit for someone else in the twilight of his career.

It's cyclical like that.

Situations are different. Hatte lost his job early in the season bc Votto gave them a better chance to succeed. Some are saying to outright bench Ramon for a completely different reason.

IslandRed
09-14-2011, 02:08 PM
That's baseball -- older talent gives way to younger ballplayers all the time. There's always someone left holding the bag when a minor leaguer gets called up to play everyday.

Does Hernandez like it? Probably no more than Scott Hatteberg liked it when Joey Votto was called up and took his spot at 1st base. That's part of playing the game, though. Someone sat for Hernandez when he got the call, he'll sit for someone else in the twilight of his career.

It's cyclical like that.

There's still a difference between "phased out" and "persona non grata," is all I'm saying here.

Bumstead
09-14-2011, 02:30 PM
Situations are different. Hatte lost his job early in the season bc Votto gave them a better chance to succeed. Some are saying to outright bench Ramon for a completely different reason.

It's not really any different. I would suggest that Mes gives the Reds a better chance to win down the road if not right now. Ramon has played all year...how did the Reds do while he played? I personally understand if Ramon is upset, but then again, I don't really care either. He won't be here next year when the
Reds have a chance to win the division.

Bum

Always Red
09-21-2011, 07:12 AM
Drew Stubbs got his number last night- only it wasn't 100 runs scored that Dusty had mentioned earlier.

Stubbs K'd for the 200th time this season, making him only the 2nd man in baseball history ever to do so.:eek:

klw
09-21-2011, 10:16 AM
Drew Stubbs got his number last night- only it wasn't 100 runs scored that Dusty had mentioned earlier.

Stubbs K'd for the 200th time this season, making him only the 2nd man in baseball history ever to do so.:eek:

If .200 BA is the "Mendoza line", is 200 K's the "Reynolds line"?

Blitz Dorsey
09-21-2011, 10:26 AM
Let's be real though ... the season is over and has been for quite a while. It's not like Dusty is doing this in the middle of a pennant race (putting individual stats ahead of everything else on the priority list). As a fan, I'm also rooting for Bruce to reach 100 RBIs. I wanted him to reach 30 HRs and he did that. Now I want to see him reach 100 RBIs. When you've been out of the race for two months, these are the kind of things you focus on.

Dusty probably shouldn't have said it, but he's doing what most managers would do. September baseball when you're out of the race is all about padding the stats and getting PT for younger players. So, I understand fans that are frustrated we're not seeing more young guys. But it was cool to see Mesoraco play last night and hit his second jack. It's not like the kids are rotting on the bench. Also, I think Alonso would have played almost every game in LF the rest of the way if he didn't get the minor injury that limits his (already limited) mobility. We're also seeing a heck of a lot of Juan Francisco at 3B. I personally want to see Votto and Bruce in the lineup every day, with some younger players mixed in. It's just too bad Cozart got hurt -- this time would be very valuable for his development (and we wouldn't have to see Janish play).

Always Red
09-21-2011, 10:32 AM
If .200 BA is the "Mendoza line", is 200 K's the "Reynolds line"?

I like it! :thumbup:

Ghosts of 1990
09-22-2011, 10:18 AM
Dusty is funny to me.

If he wanted Jay Bruce to get his 100 RBI's so much, and understood so much what that meant to Jay or 'Player X' he would understand that AB's now are the same as the AB's and opportunities that said player was deprived of in May and April when he decided to go sit that said player before an off day to get him some extra rest.

Dusty just goes with the wind and says whatever he needs to say sometimes to justify a decision.

REDREAD
09-22-2011, 11:08 AM
[about Ramon]. His happiness as the season finishes with a resounding "thud" is absolutely the least of my concerns if I'm running a team.

Well, it will be a concern if you try to bring back Cordero or any other vet at a team friendly contract in the future.

What if Rolen has a good year in 2012, and the Reds want to bring him back in a limited role at a low salary for 2013? Do you think he'll sign if he thinks he's going to be benched the last 2 months?

IMO, this thread proves that Dusty is a better manager of people than he's given credit for.