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View Full Version : Is there anyone in the starting lineup you'd part with in trade?



Vottomatic
09-13-2011, 12:20 PM
I think I'd part with Stubbs if he brought a good return.

It all really depends on what another team is willing to offer. That's why I think this offseason Reds ownership/management should make it known that everyone is available for the right price. And then sit back and see if any crazy overpaying offers come in.

brm7675
09-13-2011, 12:24 PM
Votto will be very tough to trade. All the other teams know he is going to test the Free Agent market when his contract is up, so you won't give up much. Bruce is still way to inconsistant to bring anything of real value. Stubbs alone won't bring you anything so it would have to be a package deal. I don't deal either Leake or Cueto or Devin, but everyone else is available. With that said I see very few if any "deals" done by the Reds this offseason.

Old NDN
09-13-2011, 12:36 PM
I can't see any teams overpaying for Stubbs. Although his skills are somewhat teasing, he simply is too inconsistent. The Reds have been plenty guilty in running some of these players out there, hoping they'll catch fire. Stubbs, Gomes, Janish, Volquez, Arroyo, etc.) They are/were just too slow in making any changes.

nux fan
09-13-2011, 12:44 PM
would trade any of them , after all the team is under .500, it is a sub mediocre team

bounty37h
09-13-2011, 02:02 PM
I think I'd part with Stubbs if he brought a good return.

It all really depends on what another team is willing to offer. That's why I think this offseason Reds ownership/management should make it known that everyone is available for the right price. And then sit back and see if any crazy overpaying offers come in.

There isnt a person in the org I wouldnt consider. No team would pay/trade what it would take for me to go through with most of them, but I would listen to any offer on any player.

texasdave
09-13-2011, 02:08 PM
There isnt a person in the org I wouldnt consider. No team would pay/trade what it would take for me to go through with most of them, but I would listen to any offer on any player.

Here is an article on the Ramon Hernandez situation from mlbtraderumors.com. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/09/free-agent-stock-watch-ramon-hernandez.html This part baffles me. Maybe I am reading it wrong but it is a headscratcher.


At the trade deadline, Reds GM Walt Jocketty wasn't even willing to listen to offers for him, under the assumption no team would offer enough. In August, Hernandez was claimed off waivers but Jocketty again chose not to make a deal.

Does that make any sense? He wouldn't even entertain offers for Hernandez because he THOUGHT no team would offer enough. Huh? How did he know? Is Walt a mind reader? That is crazy to me.

All in a day's work for Reds mismanagement.

Old NDN
09-13-2011, 02:28 PM
As this season has dragged on, I have come to the realization the Reds more resemble the Cubs and Pirates than Cards and Brewers. The Reds NEED to be aggressive in the offseason, but unfortunately, that hasn't been their MO. They look closer to the bottom than the top of the division. Another quiet offseason would be a killer to the fans. That's hard for me to grasp after last year's year's success.

The DARK
09-13-2011, 03:43 PM
A couple thoughts on Hernandez:

1) Arbitration is a delicate process. There are a lot of factors that goes into the mind of a player about accepting it, such as whether he'd actually get to play in Cincinnati. With half of the pitching staff preferring to pitch to Hanigan instead and Mesoraco crowned the next Johnny Bench, the club would simply turn around and dump him off in a trade before the season starts. For most vets, being able to pick a location and contract of their own would be preferable to legal proceedings and being shipped off to an unknown location. And finally, he'll be the best catcher available on the market in free agency, and has a good chance of making better money there with a championship contender (think Boston, San Francisco) than arb would net him. He'll almost certainly decline, and we'll get our supplemental pick.

2) Let's be real about the trade situation. If Gomes only got a return of two non-prospects that don't even profile as replacement parts in the big leagues, what would Hernandez have gotten even later in the season, especially as he started to cool off? Most of the teams that could use him weren't the one with protected picks.

In response to the thread, my take on the players of value:


Brandon Phillips, Edgar Renteria, Ramon Hernandez- Contract expiring, not a trade candidate.

Joey Votto- Get back to me when we're 15 games out at the trade deadline next season. Otherwise no.

Zack Cozart- As of now our future at SS, unless you want a repeat of this season. Worth more to us than anyone else. Nope.

Jay Bruce- After seeing the loose change that was the Rasmus return, I'd be looking for a lot more.

Drew Stubbs- I've heard a lot of trade ideas surrounding him, but I'd shy away. He's our only steal threat (don't kid yourself into thinking that Phillips is one anymore), and one of our few CF options.

Chris Heisey- From what we've seen, a good pinch hitter and defender, but not a starter. Mostly a throw-in.

Yonder Alonso- Trade him now, while the iron is hot. Judging by what he's done in AAA, there's no way he'll sustain even close to this over a full season.

Devin Mesoraco- Pretty close to untouchable.

Juan Francisco- The power is alluring, and he plays a decent LF too. I'd trade him gladly, though.

Todd Frazier- Slightly older utility prospect with power who we already have in Cairo- I'd dangle him as well.

Dave Sappelt- Our best-kept secret, who didn't get much attention in the prospect rankings. Plays the ever-important CF. He's much more useful to us than what he'd fetch.

Scott Rolen- The contract and injuries make him virtually untradeable.

bounty37h
09-13-2011, 04:06 PM
Here is an article on the Ramon Hernandez situation from mlbtraderumors.com. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/09/free-agent-stock-watch-ramon-hernandez.html This part baffles me. Maybe I am reading it wrong but it is a headscratcher.



Does that make any sense? He wouldn't even entertain offers for Hernandez because he THOUGHT no team would offer enough. Huh? How did he know? Is Walt a mind reader? That is crazy to me.

All in a day's work for Reds mismanagement.

Yeah, I dont get that at all, you take the calls all day and see what peope are at least offering, dont go in with the assumption. You know the old saying, those who assume are stuck with 3 catchers...

texasdave
09-13-2011, 04:59 PM
2) Let's be real about the trade situation. If Gomes only got a return of two non-prospects that don't even profile as replacement parts in the big leagues, what would Hernandez have gotten even later in the season, especially as he started to cool off? Most of the teams that could use him weren't the one with protected picks.

This is interesting in light of the fact that Walt is adamant about not making a trade unless he gets a fair return. Thinking logically you end up concluding that that was all Gomes was worth, since Walt pulled the trigger on the deal.
Now conspiracy theorists out there might want to muddy the waters by claiming Gomes was traded simply so Dusty would stop playing him. And that the return was of little or no consequence.

texasdave
09-13-2011, 05:05 PM
Jay Bruce- After seeing the loose change that was the Rasmus return, I'd be looking for a lot more.



Traded by the St. Louis Cardinals with Trever Miller, Brian Tallet and P.J. Walters to the Toronto Blue Jays for Octavio Dotel, Edwin Jackson, Corey Patterson, Marc Rzepczynski and three players to be named or cash.

I have never seen a trade that involves THREE PTBNLs. Since it is the Cardinals I have my fingers crossed that the three players turn out to be these guys.

Krawhitham
09-13-2011, 07:47 PM
I think I'd part with Stubbs if he brought a good return.

It all really depends on what another team is willing to offer. That's why I think this offseason Reds ownership/management should make it known that everyone is available for the right price. And then sit back and see if any crazy overpaying offers come in.

Stubbs, Rolen, Janish

I would trade others but they are not considered starting lineup player yet, but of the "b team" I would be willing to trade

Alonso, Frazier, Sappelt, & Grandal

Krawhitham
09-13-2011, 07:54 PM
Drew Stubbs- I've heard a lot of trade ideas surrounding him, but I'd shy away. He's our only steal threat (don't kid yourself into thinking that Phillips is one anymore), and one of our few CF options.

Chris Heisey- From what we've seen, a good pinch hitter and defender, but not a starter. Mostly a throw-in.


Hi-C has the same HR & more RBI than Stubbs, and he has only had 42% of the at Bats Stubbs has had

What screams not a starter to you?

nux fan
09-13-2011, 08:06 PM
get rid of stubbs exactly

texasdave
09-13-2011, 08:26 PM
Heisey has outplayed Stubbs this year. No doubt.

The DARK
09-14-2011, 03:59 AM
A number of things tell me that Stubbs is a better starter...

1. For all that we gripe about Stubbs's strikeout rate, he at least walks occasionally. Heisey has not. In fact, Heisey has a worse BB/K rate this season than Stubbs does.

2. Heisey has consistently looked better and more comfortable in a pinch hitting role than starting. The reason we still gripe about his role is that every time he pinch hits, he performs and gets Redszone demanding he start, but when he finally does, his performance drops off and he returns to his old role.

3. Stubbs is a proficient stealer. Heisey is not. We have no one else who can fill that role on our team, so if we wish to have some aspect of our lineup set up around speed, Stubbs is the go-to guy. Advantage Stubbs.

His strikeouts are immensely frustrating, but the truth is that he's a lot more valuable than we like to give him credit for. A transition from Stubbs to Heisey or Sappelt would not be seamless.

Vottomatic
09-14-2011, 09:49 AM
Trade Stubbs while he still has value. This is as good as it gets with Stubbs.

Reds need a cleanup hitter worse than a tablesetter. And as long as Krusty is the manager, OBP will never matter with the #1 and #2 hitters. Strikeout all you want. The only one who walks is the mailman, per Dusty.

Acquire Mike Stanton from the Marlins, stick him in LF, and stick Sappelt in CF.

CF Sappelt
2B Phillips
1B Votto
LF Stanton (30+ HR's)
RF Bruce
3B Francisco/Rolen
C Hanigan/Mez
SS Cozart/retread veteran

texasdave
09-14-2011, 10:27 AM
OPS correlates to producing runs very highly.

Stubbs' OPS as a starter in 2011 = .693.
Heisey's OPS as a starter in 2011 = .773. (So much for him not producing when he starts, huh?)

Stubbs has 624 PA as a starter. (Yes, Dusty will keep running players out there come hell or high water even when they aren't producing. For further evidence see - Gomes, Jonny.)
Heisey has 190 PA as a starter.

Here are their counting stats if you pro-rate Heisey's to 624PA.

Stubbs = 86 RS 15 HR 41 RBI.
Heisey = 92 RS 36 HR 89 RBI.

Stubbs' 2011 WAR = 2.7
Heisey's 2011 WAR = 1.2

WAR is a counting stat so if you, once again, prorate Heisey's numbers you end up with a 2.9 WAR for Heisey.

Obviously, nobody knows for sure that Heisey would continue at that same pace with additional playing time. He could be worse or better. No way of knowing for certain.
What we do is that he has NEVER been given an extended look in the starting lineup.

We also know he has outplayed Drew Stubbs this year. Does that make Heisey the better player? Probably indeterminate at this point. But I definitely would move Stubbs in a deal, knowing that I had Heisey in my back pocket.

Stray
09-14-2011, 11:06 AM
I would part with Stubbs if the deal was right. You gotta think if Walt makes a move to get a bat this offseason that either Heisey or Stubbs will be a part of it.

Like someone else said, if we lose Stubbs we'll be losing our only threat to steal. Heisey could steal more in a bigger role, but he wouldn't be nearly as proficient as Stubbs. Also, if we are going to be running Alonso out to LF I would feel much better if Stubbs is patrolling center. Another big loss would be Stubbs' arm in the OF, I don't know for sure but I would think he's up there as far as assists for CFers.

Like Texasdave said, there's no way to know for sure until he gets an extended look. I don't know if he will though, he got his chance and got hurt. Now there are 3-4 more guys up here that play the outfield.

Going by what I've seen, if I had to pick one I'd rather keep Stubbs. But obviously there's no harm in sitting him once or twice a week to get Heisey out there for the rest of this year.

Pete4prez
09-14-2011, 11:35 AM
Stubbs is the player I'm afraid to trade, he has underperformed since he has been here, but as soon as you trade him he finally has breakout.

texasdave
09-14-2011, 11:49 AM
I would part with Stubbs if the deal was right. You gotta think if Walt makes a move to get a bat this offseason that either Heisey or Stubbs will be a part of it.

Walt would be better served to focus on pitching, pitching and more pitching.

NL AVE ERA- 3.83
CIN ERA - 4.16

NL STARTER ERA - 3.98
CIN STARTER ERA - 4.43

NL RELIEVER ERA - 3.58
CIN RELIEVER ERA - 3.64

I understand there is a difference on this board on whether it is the pitching or the hitting, but those numbers suggest it is the pitching to me.




Like someone else said, if we lose Stubbs we'll be losing our only threat to steal.

This might sound flippant but it's not. But so what? The object is to produce runs not steal bases. And Heisey, in 2011, has been better at producing runs than Stubbs. I don't think that is even arguable at this point. Stubbs' OPS for the season - .693. Heisey's OPS for the season - .787. Just a brief aside, can anyone recall Stubbs stealing a base at a crucial point late in a game? It must have happened but I am thinking not very often. They say the break even rate for base stealing is about 70%. Stubbs is at about 76%.
All that running has not added a whole lot of value to the team, IMO.

If Alonso is in left then one might lean towards keepings Stubbs over Heisey. I can see that point.

But another point of consideration is how much other teams value the two players. If Stubbs is going to be a much more valuable trading chip that would make it more sensible to part with him.

It should be an interesting winter. I hope it is. I hope they don't bring this team back pretty much intact and expect a division title to fall into their laps again.

BluegrassRedleg
09-14-2011, 02:40 PM
Stubbs brings absolutely nothing to the table. The only thing he does well is predicated on something he cannot do consistently.

demas863
09-15-2011, 03:51 PM
I think I'd part with Stubbs if he brought a good return.

It all really depends on what another team is willing to offer. That's why I think this offseason Reds ownership/management should make it known that everyone is available for the right price. And then sit back and see if any crazy overpaying offers come in.

Great idea!

Redsfan08
09-15-2011, 05:28 PM
I would trade Joey Votto for Jose Bautista straight up and let Alonso be the starting 1B next season.