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RANDY IN INDY
09-14-2011, 02:06 PM
Forget the offense. What players that have played for the Reds over the years would make up your best Reds defensive team of all time. Took some liberties with the Outfielders positions as all three were centerfielders.

Here is mine:

1B- Frank McCormick
2B- Brandon Phillips
SS- Dave Cooncepcion
3B- Buddy Bell
OF- Cesar Geronimo
OF- Eric Davis
OF- Vada Pinson
C- Johnny Bench
P- Don Gullett (A pure athlete)

2nd Team

1B- Joey Votto
2B- Pokey Reese
SS- Barry Larkin
3B- Scott Rolen
OF- Frank Robinson
OF- Gus Bell
OF- Edd Roush
C- Johnny Edwards
P- Bronson Arroyo

1st Base is a tough position in Reds defensive History, while 2nd and shortstop have had a plethora of players with great defensive prowess in guys like Brett Boone, Tommy Helms, Joe Morgan, and Ronnie Oester (who may have turned the DP better than any of them) at 2nd, and Roy McMillan and Leo Cardenas at short. Have always heard that Billy Werber was a fantastic 3rd baseman and you can't forget that Pete Rose won two gold gloves in the outfield in '69 and '70. At pitcher, I have always heard that Bucky Walters was a great athlete and fielder.

mace
09-14-2011, 02:39 PM
Hal Chase, of course, had scruples issues, but he developed quite a reputation as the slickest first baseman of his time. He was with the Reds for three years ('16-'18).

I wasn't aware that Johnny Edwards was that exceptional a defender. Maybe so.

Bid McPhee has to get some consideration for doing what he did without a glove.

Personally, I'd take Rolen over Buddy Bell. Rolen has the most dependable arm I've ever seen.

Good post.

George Anderson
09-14-2011, 02:53 PM
I might put Joe Morgan ahead of Phillips. Pokey Reese for sure.

Also maybe Dan Driessen over Votto at first.

*BaseClogger*
09-14-2011, 02:57 PM
Roush almost certainly has to be first team somewhere in the outfield? He could run and had the best arm of his era...

RedsManRick
09-14-2011, 02:59 PM
Mike Cameron could be in the OF, at least on the 2nd team. And I'd put Reese above BP.

Always Red
09-14-2011, 03:00 PM
Driessen was an excellent defensive 1B.

I have no idea if McCormick was good defensively or not- serious question- is there any way to judge historical defense (especially going back to Frank's era) other than errors committed and reputation?

RedsBaron
09-14-2011, 03:20 PM
Great thread idea.
It's tough to rank players that I never got to see play and it would take a lot of research to give guys such as Frank McCormick, Edd Roush and Roy McMillan their due. Even with regard to guys I watched play, basing my rankings on what I saw and remember, as compared to a sabermetric analysis, has its own shortcomings.
1B-Joey Votto. Dan Driessen was a fine fielder, but I don't know that he was any better with the glove than Votto and Votto is such a fundamentally sound player I will go with him.
2B-Pokey Reese. I wasn't crazy about his attitude but he could pick it. I will take him over Brandon Phillips and Joe Morgan, Gold Glovers in their own right.
SS-Barry Larkin. This is a tough one. I loved Davey Concepcion, but Larkin was another fundamentally sound player who rarely made a mistake anywhere.
3B-Scott Rolen, narrowly over Buddy Bell.
OF-Eric Davis. Spectacular.
OF-Vada Pinson.
OF-Cesar Geronimo. Boy, would this be an outfield where flyballs would go to die. I wouldn't include either Frank Robinson or Pete Rose on even the second all defense team, as neither one had that good of an arm.
C-Johnny Bench. Easiest decision to make. Johnny Edwards was very good.
P-Don Gullett, for the reason Randy stated, but I agree that Bucky Walters almost certainly was terrific.

Now if we did a "No defense" team we could name Dante Bichette, Alex Johnson......

mth123
09-14-2011, 03:24 PM
Forget the offense. What players that have played for the Reds over the years would make up your best Reds defensive team of all time. Took some liberties with the Outfielders positions as all three were centerfielders.

Here is mine:

1B- Frank McCormick
2B- Brandon Phillips
SS- Dave Cooncepcion
3B- Buddy Bell
OF- Cesar Geronimo
OF- Eric Davis
OF- Vada Pinson
C- Johnny Bench
P- Don Gullett (A pure athlete)

2nd Team

1B- Joey Votto
2B- Pokey Reese
SS- Barry Larkin
3B- Scott Rolen
OF- Frank Robinson
OF- Gus Bell
OF- Edd Roush
C- Johnny Edwards
P- Bronson Arroyo

1st Base is a tough position in Reds defensive History, while 2nd and shortstop have had a plethora of players with great defensive prowess in guys like Brett Boone, Tommy Helms, Joe Morgan, and Ronnie Oester (who may have turned the DP better than any of them) at 2nd, and Roy McMillan and Leo Cardenas at short. Have always heard that Billy Werber was a fantastic 3rd baseman and you can't forget that Pete Rose won two gold gloves in the outfield in '69 and '70. At pitcher, I have always heard that Bucky Walters was a great athlete and fielder.

I pretty much agree. Hard to beat Bench, Phillips, Concepcion and Davis up the middle.

Just for Grins the worst ever.

1B - Adam Dunn
2B - Todd Walker
3B - Edwin Encanacion
SS - Jeff Keppinger
LF - Alex Johnson
CF - Ken Griffey JR
RF - Richie Scheinbloom/Wily Mo Pena
C- Javier Valentin

I have Pena and Scheinbloom sharing time in RF since neither played here all that much. FWIW, Griffey in CF and RF would be the worst I've seen at 2 positions as would Dunn at 1B and LF (though Yonder Alonso has potential to nose him out in LF as well as EdE at 3B).

A special mention for 3B. EdE was pretty putrid to finsih ahead of guys like Deron Johnson, Tony Perez and Dan Driessen. The Reds recent Alonso at 3B experiment shows that the Reds value tradition after all. And think, we thought Austin Kearns playing there would have been a bad idea. I'd wager that he'd have been better than all those guys (but far from good for sure). Heck, next to those guys, Pete Rose with hs knock it down and pray I can get throw to 1B style was Brooks Robinson.

cumberlandreds
09-14-2011, 03:28 PM
Here's my 40 years Red fan list:

1b Driessen not really many good defensive 1b basemen that I can remember. Votto is close to first though.

2b Phillips He is spectacular every night. I didn't see Resse play that much during his time here but if he was better than Phillips, that was something. Morgan was great too but Phillips has him beat in range.

SS Concepcion One of the best of all time at his position. No one has come close to him.

3b Rolen His one year last year was great. I thought he was just a little better than Bell.

C Bench No brainer here. The best ever not just with the Reds.

OF Eric Davis Could climb the walls better than anyone else to grab balls headed over the fence. Had great speed with a great arm.

OF Cesar Geronimo Multiple Gold Gloves, Great arm and great range

OF Mike Cameron Didn't see him play a lot with the Reds but seen enough of him to know he was outstanding in the OF

P Don Gullett. Great all around athlete that could field his position as well as anyone.

UKFlounder
09-14-2011, 03:28 PM
Worst all time - Cesar Hernandez needs to be on there in the OF. His adventures (1993?) were classic, and Gary Burbank (for you locals) had a great collection of Marty callilng Hernandez' gaffes, such as falling down, etc.

Does Dave Parker's arm merit him a mention for the best? I suppose his range was not great at that part of his career, so maybe not.

cumberlandreds
09-14-2011, 03:30 PM
Worst all time - Cesar Hernandez needs to be on there in the OF. His adventures (1993?) were classic, and Gary Burbank (for you locals) had a great collection of Marty callilng Hernandez' gaffes, such as falling down, etc.

Does Dave Parker's arm merit him a mention for the best? I suppose his range was not great at that part of his career, so maybe not.

I thought about Parker on my first team. He was still good when he was with the Reds. Great arm but had slowed down a lot and I'm sure didn't get to as many balls as he once had.

RedsBaron
09-14-2011, 03:35 PM
I thought about Parker on my first team. He was still good when he was with the Reds. Great arm but had slowed down a lot and I'm sure didn't get to as many balls as he once had.

Parker still had the arm but not the range by the time he came to the Reds.

HokieRed
09-14-2011, 06:18 PM
Speaking of arms in the outfield, I've not seen a better one in Cinti than Wally Post. I wouldn't have him first team--I like the trio of Davis, Pinson, Geronimo--but I'd give him strong consideration for the second team.

mth123
09-14-2011, 07:07 PM
Worst all time - Cesar Hernandez needs to be on there in the OF. His adventures (1993?) were classic, and Gary Burbank (for you locals) had a great collection of Marty callilng Hernandez' gaffes, such as falling down, etc.

Does Dave Parker's arm merit him a mention for the best? I suppose his range was not great at that part of his career, so maybe not.

I remember Cesar. He may have been the reason Tony Perez was fired after 44 games. Still not worse than Griffey.

mth123
09-14-2011, 07:10 PM
I pretty much agree. Hard to beat Bench, Phillips, Concepcion and Davis up the middle.

Just for Grins the worst ever.

1B - Adam Dunn
2B - Todd Walker
3B - Edwin Encanacion
SS - Jeff Keppinger
LF - Alex Johnson
CF - Ken Griffey JR
RF - Richie Scheinbloom/Wily Mo Pena
C- Javier Valentin

I have Pena and Scheinbloom sharing time in RF since neither played here all that much. FWIW, Griffey in CF and RF would be the worst I've seen at 2 positions as would Dunn at 1B and LF (though Yonder Alonso has potential to nose him out in LF as well as EdE at 3B).

A special mention for 3B. EdE was pretty putrid to finsih ahead of guys like Deron Johnson, Tony Perez and Dan Driessen. The Reds recent Alonso at 3B experiment shows that the Reds value tradition after all. And think, we thought Austin Kearns playing there would have been a bad idea. I'd wager that he'd have been better than all those guys (but far from good for sure). Heck, next to those guys, Pete Rose with hs knock it down and pray I can get throw to 1B style was Brooks Robinson.

Wow. I forgot Kal Daniels. He was worse than everybody.

Scrap Irony
09-14-2011, 07:12 PM
All-Time Worst Gloves has to include Johnny Bench at either 1B or 3B. One of the most painful moments of my life was realizing how poorly he played any other position than catcher.

mth123
09-14-2011, 07:45 PM
All-Time Worst Gloves has to include Johnny Bench at either 1B or 3B. One of the most painful moments of my life was realizing how poorly he played any other position than catcher.

I forgot him in my 3B tradition. He's worse than Perez and Johnson, not as bad as Driesen or EdE.

RedsBaron
09-14-2011, 08:11 PM
Wow. I forgot Kal Daniels. He was worse than everybody.

He was born to be a DH.

George Anderson
09-14-2011, 08:13 PM
He was born to be a DH.

I think one reason Daniels was so bad is he had a bad knee. He wore a brace on it if I recall.

But that man could hit.

mth123
09-14-2011, 08:19 PM
I think one reason Daniels was so bad is he had a bad knee. He wore a brace on it if I recall.

But that man could hit.

It was more than the knee. He had no idea out there. Got poor jumps, broke the wrong way and made up for it by having crummy hands.

He was a heckuva bat though.

BCubb2003
09-14-2011, 08:20 PM
All-Time Worst Gloves has to include Johnny Bench at either 1B or 3B. One of the most painful moments of my life was realizing how poorly he played any other position than catcher.

Bench played 111 games in the outfield. I'd put him there.

westofyou
09-14-2011, 08:30 PM
Roy McMillian is probably the most touted defensive player the Reds ever had. It's impossible to find any copy on the team during his tenure that doesn't dump accolades on him for his glove. Considering that the team has been bats first team and they still had the best ss in the league with a glove for 40 Plus years is pretty neat fact.

Harry Craft deserves mention, his glove was the only reason he was there

westofyou
09-14-2011, 08:30 PM
Dp

Always Red
09-14-2011, 08:31 PM
Hal McRae was a pretty below average OF'er who especially struggled when the Reds moved from the grass of Crosley to the faster turf at Riverfront. They tried him at 2B and 3B as well, to no avail. Excellent stick, though, even if he incorrectly thought racism kept him from winning the 1976 AL batting title.