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View Full Version : The ultimate frustrating end of season tease



Vottomatic
09-16-2011, 09:08 AM
I've mentioned it on other threads.

Heisey - how does a guy hit 17 HR's in 245 at-bats and not become a starter or atleast a platoon? Holy smokes. Pro-rate his numbers and it's pretty impressive for a guy who is pretty much a major league rookie. I mean, Stubbs bats .250 and Bruce bats .260, but everyone cuts them slack because of either their speed or power. Heisey has the same power and probably bats .250 or .260 full time at this point in his career, with the potential to improve as he sees the pitchers. Another what could have been situation possibly.

Francisco - I've wanted this guy to get a full time chance for a long time. He would have had those opportunities this year if not for him getting hurt at the same time Rolen did. Just bad luck. But he is giving us the ultimate tease this September which makes you wonder if he could be that 4-hole hitter we're all looking for. Sure, he needs to swing at better pitches, but holy moly, this guy has some serious power. And that play he made at third the other night was probably in my top 5 all time defensively for any player at third. The strength of his arm to make that play including the ability to regain his balance to make the throw. Unbelievable. I hope this is more than just a tease.

Alonso - dude can flat out hit. Aside from being slowed by injuries at times in the minors, when healthy, this guy has proven himself at all levels. But where to play him?

I am always cautious, but if these 3 guys could hit like this most of the season, this offense would be very dangerous, not to mention young and aggressive. Add in a healthy Rolen and listen to what Scott is saying about how good he feels after surgery, and that teases you even more.

I will remain cautious. But part of me is interested to see all these guys in the lineup next year and see what they can do. The problem is Dusty and how he uses them. There are some perfect platoon situations at 3B, LF, and C. Although I will miss Ramon. I think Ramon is good with the Latin Pitchers. I think he is a good teammate and clubhouse guy, and unlike Gomes, is a pretty good hitter too. It wouldn't surprise me to see Mez traded and Ramon back next year.

My new prediction is that the only trades made will be for pitching improvements in the starting rotation and the bullpen. And ownership/management will go with the young guys - Alonso, Francisco, Heisey. Wouldn't surprise me to see Stubbs traded either and Heisey or Sappelt in CF next year.

My trade predictions are Mez, Stubbs, and possibly Alonso. Then you will see more of Francisco, Heisey, and Sappelt in the lineup next season, with an improved starting rotation.

will5979
09-16-2011, 09:13 AM
If the Reds trade Alonzo I believe management is smokin' doobies and drinking the bong water.

Same theory goes if they don't sign Votto and Phillips to LTC.

Jefferson24
09-16-2011, 09:53 AM
If the Reds trade Alonzo I believe management is smokin' doobies and drinking the bong water.

Same theory goes if they don't sign Votto and Phillips to LTC.

Votto is not willing to sign a LTC.

will5979
09-16-2011, 10:42 AM
Votto is not willing to sign a LTC.

Hence the reason I may one day despise this man, I think the Reds needs a guilt trip coordinator for their contract negotiations...something along the lines of "Listen you 51st Stater, if it wasn't for our organization taking a chance on your unknown hind-end you'd still be a nobody, how about some gratitude for making you a millionaire/superstar?"

I just can't fathom how anyone would not want to spend their careers as a Red? With the baseball tradition that we have we basically make eternal gods out of our beloved superstars i.e. Rose, Bench, Morgan, Larkin, Davis, and Joey Votto could eventually be on that list as well.

drowg14
09-16-2011, 10:48 AM
I just can't fathom how anyone would not want to spend their careers as a Red?

One playoff appareance in the past 16 years. Limited resources to sign players to surround him with, let alone afford him once free agency hits.

will5979
09-16-2011, 10:57 AM
One playoff appareance in the past 16 years. Limited resources to sign players to surround him with, let alone afford him once free agency hits.

Just my opinion, but if I were Votto I would want to spend my entire career as a Red for 3 reasons...

1. If you put up consistent numbers for 20 seasons and in today's MLB spending your whole career with the same team is a borderline ticket to the HOF.

2. He will be the superstar here for years to come, and in down years, he gets the token free pass to the All-Star Game.

3. The immortal God status in the great baseball city of Cincinnati to have my statue placed outside GABP along with my jersey retired in that stadium and to be mentioned in the same sentence as Rose, Bench, and Larkin.

Like I said just my opinion.

Stray
09-16-2011, 11:23 AM
Heisey's power numbers are definitely impressive. I don't think we'll make a move in the outfield. We'll probably pencil in Bruce in RF everyday and have Heisey platooning LF and CF with Stubbs and Alonso. I don't like to project numbers out because it's almost never true, but with more at bats Heisey could easily hit 30 homeruns. His obp and avg will probably be low, but he'll still give value as a 4th OF getting a lot of PT. I doubt we trade Stubbs just because we seem to have committed to Alonso in LF.

I also love what Francisco is doing. He has the ability to pull a mistake out of the ballpark, but even more impressive is his ability to take a pitch the other way and hit a line drive to the wall. Would love to see a 50/50 platoon with him and Rolen next season.

Alonso just looks like a run producer. He has plate discipline, can hit to all fields, and has a lot of power. He's the kinda guy that hitting behind Votto could knock in a ton of runs.

I have no doubt we'll score more runs next year with BP leading off, Cozart here from day 1, and more production from 3B and LF. Our biggest question is how many we're gonna be giving up. Bullpen needs more guys that can miss bats.

DocRed
09-16-2011, 11:27 AM
2 words....Duh Sty

Jefferson24
09-16-2011, 11:31 AM
Just my opinion, but if I were Votto I would want to spend my entire career as a Red for 3 reasons...

1. If you put up consistent numbers for 20 seasons and in today's MLB spending your whole career with the same team is a borderline ticket to the HOF.

2. He will be the superstar here for years to come, and in down years, he gets the token free pass to the All-Star Game.

3. The immortal God status in the great baseball city of Cincinnati to have my statue placed outside GABP along with my jersey retired in that stadium and to be mentioned in the same sentence as Rose, Bench, and Larkin.

Like I said just my opinion.

Many of these guys look at this as a job and if a better offer comes along they take it. Some of them put friendships/loyalty/location above the money but many are in it for the biggest check they can get. They have a limited window of time they can earn the big money and they don't want to feel like they left money on the table.

I ask myself how rich is too rich and does that extra money really matter. I guess I just can't relate to those kind of numbers and I don't understand.

drowg14
09-16-2011, 11:46 AM
Many of these guys look at this as a job and if a better offer comes along they take it. Some of them put friendships/loyalty/location above the money but many are in it for the biggest check they can get. They have a limited window of time they can earn the big money and they don't want to feel like they left money on the table.

I ask myself how rich is too rich and does that extra money really matter. I guess I just can't relate to those kind of numbers and I don't understand.

I agree with this take, but in addition I will just add that not every player is the same. Each player will have different motivating factors. Maybe Votto doesn't care about the glory of playing 20 years for one team. Maybe he wants to play at home. Maybe he likes the weather in the south. Maybe he wants the best possible chance to win a championship (or several). If it is the championship or the money he wants, Cincy is probably not the place for him. The FO has so far shown an unwillingness to do what is necessary to compete. As long as he doesn't leave town like that tool Lebron did, (or join the Yankees) I really won't be able to fault his decision.

Hillsdale87
09-16-2011, 01:24 PM
"Listen you 51st Stater, if it wasn't for our organization taking a chance on your unknown hind-end you'd still be a nobody, how about some gratitude for making you a millionaire/superstar?"


Yea because nobody every would have heard of him if he'd have been drafted by the Yankees later in the 2nd round... Their players never get any exposure/money

brm7675
09-16-2011, 01:29 PM
If the Reds trade Alonzo I believe management is smokin' doobies and drinking the bong water.

Same theory goes if they don't sign Votto and Phillips to LTC.

No chance Votto signs anything till he hits FA, and no chance in hell I give Phillips a long term deal. At most I offer him maybe a 3 year deal. As for Alonzo, if you can deal him you must there is no where on this team for him to play day in and day out.

Stray
09-16-2011, 01:32 PM
Hence the reason I may one day despise this man, I think the Reds needs a guilt trip coordinator for their contract negotiations...something along the lines of "Listen you 51st Stater, if it wasn't for our organization taking a chance on your unknown hind-end you'd still be a nobody, how about some gratitude for making you a millionaire/superstar?"

I just can't fathom how anyone would not want to spend their careers as a Red? With the baseball tradition that we have we basically make eternal gods out of our beloved superstars i.e. Rose, Bench, Morgan, Larkin, Davis, and Joey Votto could eventually be on that list as well.

You can't fathom how someone wouldn't want to spend their career in Cincinnati? How about our last 10 years? How about the stands that rarely get filled? How about the payroll?

At the end of the day, Votto is under contract with us. He's giving us some great years, and I assume we have at least another one. When his contract is up he'd be crazy NOT to test the waters and see what kind of money he can make.

Stray
09-16-2011, 01:34 PM
No chance Votto signs anything till he hits FA, and no chance in hell I give Phillips a long term deal. At most I offer him maybe a 3 year deal. As for Alonzo, if you can deal him you must there is no where on this team for him to play day in and day out.

I would try to extend Phillips, but I'm with you. I like a 3 year deal though that might not be enough for him, I'd go to 5 since I think he'll be valuable at 35.

Also, I think we recently said that Alonso is our plan in LF.

texasdave
09-16-2011, 01:35 PM
If Joey Votto makes his next contract decision based on dollars then that it is really, really sad. It's like someone pointed out earlier. How much is enough? No matter where he plays he will make more money than he can possibly spend. Votto strikes me as a bright person. I don't believe money will be the determining factor.

brm7675
09-16-2011, 01:38 PM
Just my opinion, but if I were Votto I would want to spend my entire career as a Red for 3 reasons...

1. If you put up consistent numbers for 20 seasons and in today's MLB spending your whole career with the same team is a borderline ticket to the HOF.

Says who? First off do you really see him playing 20 years and putting up consistant numbers doesn't get you into the HOF

2. He will be the superstar here for years to come, and in down years, he gets the token free pass to the All-Star Game.

He will be a superstar no matter where he plays and if you haven't seen, to today's players, playing in the All star game isn't that big of a deal.

3. The immortal God status in the great baseball city of Cincinnati to have my statue placed outside GABP along with my jersey retired in that stadium and to be mentioned in the same sentence as Rose, Bench, and Larkin.

Please name the players who have statues outside GABP and how many greats have played in cincy? Come on you need to relize this is a business and Votto needs to and should do what is best for him.
Like I said just my opinion.

will5979
09-16-2011, 02:01 PM
Are you serious>? Are you REALLY serious>? Name the greats that have played for the Reds?

Lets see...

Edd Roush-one of the greatest CFer of the dead ball era
Bucky Walters-A pitcher that won the MVP
Johnny Bench-without argument the greatest Catcher of all time
Joe Morgan-without argument the greatest 2Bman of all time
Pete Rose-without argument the greatest hitter of all time
Sparky Anderson-one of the greatest managers of all time
Barry Larkin-the greatest SS of the 1990s
The 1976 Cincinnati Reds-the greatest TEAM of all time

What more of a resume do we need to show the younger players our tradition?

P.S. 5 Rings, we are in the elite of organizational success and history, the numbers cannot lie.

Vottomatic
09-16-2011, 02:39 PM
You can't fathom how someone wouldn't want to spend their career in Cincinnati? How about our last 10 years? How about the stands that rarely get filled? How about the payroll?

At the end of the day, Votto is under contract with us. He's giving us some great years, and I assume we have at least another one. When his contract is up he'd be crazy NOT to test the waters and see what kind of money he can make.

I agree that the Reds organization, up until the last few years, has not done anything in a long time. And I could see Votto having his doubts.

If it comes down to money, I will lose respect for Joey. I'm a guy that often wonders how much is enough? If I'm making a fair enough amount, I'd rather have a good team around me, guys I like to go to work with, and enjoy the stadium, fans, and city I play for. Being competitive would be probably my highest priority, and then I'd expect to make close to fair compensation and might take less if I was happy.

I think it's up to the Reds to show Joey they plan on being competitive for a long, long time. Hopefully it starts again next year.

brm7675
09-16-2011, 02:44 PM
Are you serious>? Are you REALLY serious>? Name the greats that have played for the Reds?

Lets see...

Edd Roush-one of the greatest CFer of the dead ball era
Bucky Walters-A pitcher that won the MVP

both great players no question, ask most joe fans about them and they wouldn't know much about them. Where is the statues of them at GABP?

Johnny Bench-without argument the greatest Catcher of all time
No question but how long did it take to get his statue?

Joe Morgan-without argument the greatest 2Bman of all time
Greatest of all time? Maybe pushing it a bit, greatest of his era, probably more like it, a HOF without question, but I have seemed to miss his statue at GABP, could you please let me know where it is?

Pete Rose-without argument the greatest hitter of all time
Sparky Anderson-one of the greatest managers of all time
Barry Larkin-the greatest SS of the 1990s
The 1976 Cincinnati Reds-the greatest TEAM of all time

All great no question and means nothing to players today. This isn't the 70's anymore, players don't stay with their same team throughout their careers, they go where the money is and where they think they have the best chance to win. What has been the Reds record in the post season since 1990?

What more of a resume do we need to show the younger players our tradition?

P.S. 5 Rings, we are in the elite of organizational success and history, the numbers cannot lie.

Lets see 1 ring in the Teens, another in the 40's, 2 in the 70's and 1 in the 90's, all great, but again means nothing to today's player. We are in a "what have you done for me lately" society. Let me ask you this, if all this history is SO important to the Reds, why has there been almost NONE of it used to sell the team via promotions? I mean since moving to GABP, name me promotions by the Reds highlighting the teams past? It's all about today's players and today's accomplishments. Where was the big time recognition 70 year rememberence of the 40 WS team? I mean yes I am not sure how many players are still alive from that team, but nothing. How about honoring the 61 team this year on it's 50 year anniversy? Nothing...