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View Full Version : Where do you rank right now in the positive-negative spectrum?



WMR
09-16-2011, 03:27 PM
Concerning the overall state and direction of the franchise?

Very positive

Somewhat positive

Neutral

Somewhat negative

Very negative

Voting is anonymous.

Will M
09-16-2011, 03:29 PM
Very negative

I haven't been happy since the inactivity at the 2010 trade deadline.

For this off season I expect Walt to re-sign Coco and get one arm in the pen (with Chapman starting in 2012). I'd be thrilled if I am wrong and he goes out and swings a couple of big deals. But I am not going to get my hopes up.

Edd Roush
09-16-2011, 03:55 PM
Somewhat positive

Being born in '88 and really becoming a Reds' fanatic in the 2000s, I have seen some really poor teams and have never really been a fan when the Reds have had playoff success. This team is much better than the 2000s and Walt is a better GM than any in my lifetime. This is an unlucky team that is a top-tier pitcher away from being the NL Central favorite next year. I really think Walt knows he has to make a move this off-season and I really believe he is going to pull in an ace.

reds1869
09-16-2011, 03:59 PM
I'm right in the middle of the spectrum. I feel very good about the young guys but I'm worried about what the front office will do--or, more accurately, not do--this off season.

UKFlounder
09-16-2011, 04:00 PM
Neutral. 2010 was fun to see the Reds win and though that is missing this year, Votto is still a really, really good player, Bruce has put up good numbers, and a few other players have been pretty good. I feel much better than I did a few years ago when I had no expectations of the team winning.

On the other hand, they're so inconsistent and the lack of trades almost reminds me of the "don't trade the crown jewels" movement in the late 1980s.

REDREAD
09-16-2011, 04:26 PM
I'm somewhat positive.
I am still happy about last year.. After so much inepitude from Carl and Allen, it's nice to see the Reds not be a laughingstock anymore.
At least we have an owner that cares about winning, and a competent GM and competent field manager.

I know everyone is disappointed this year, but few times win year in and year out.

We will be a strong team next year, even if no significant moves are made. Of course, I hope some moves are made, but I don't think this board is ever going to be estatic .. In fact, probably the best offseason the Reds had in recent history (right before 1999).. we brought in Cameron, Vaughn, Neagle, and a handful of starting pitching candidates to patch the rotation.. even then, people were disappointed until the season started.

I dunno, I guess I have lower expectations. I don't think there's any scenerio where we are going to be perennial WS favorites. I enjoyed this year, despite the record. There was some frustration, but the team was worth watching.

PuffyPig
09-16-2011, 04:27 PM
On the other hand, they're so inconsistent and the lack of trades almost reminds me of the "don't trade the crown jewels" movement in the late 1980s.


IIRC, that "don't trade the crown jewels" movement in the late 80's lead to a world series win in 1990.

RedsManRick
09-16-2011, 04:41 PM
Based on our assets, I'm optimistic. Based on my belief about whether management will capitalize on our assets, I'm pessimistic. That leaves me neutral.

bucksfan2
09-16-2011, 04:45 PM
I am positive. I pretty much am in agreement with REDREAD. This year obviously didn't turn out like any of us hoped but that said there still is a lot to get excited about. The FO has been somewhat inactive, but the reality is that may have paid of in the long term. Had they landed Cliff Lee last season they probably still would have been swept and been without Alonso.

I am hopeful that 2012 starts "the future is now" mantra. No more building for the future, capitalize on all the building over the past half decade.

Kc61
09-16-2011, 04:46 PM
Neutral.

I like the young talent. I like Votto. I like Cueto and Leake.

On the negative side, there are harsh realities. The Arroyo contract is turning out to be a disaster. The bullpen completely fell apart in the second half.

Like others, I like some of the assets very much, but I see a major need to make important additions and subtractions. A bold front office could make something from this group. Can this front office?

TRF
09-16-2011, 05:17 PM
Somewhat positive.

I saw a step forward from Bruce, a glimpse of him as a potential superstar.

I saw Cueto take another step towards being the Ace I always hoped he would be.

I'm no longer worried about 3B or LF.

but...

The rotation concerns me. It's Cueto, Leake(who I have little confidence in...) and question marks. I believe next year is the year Volquez returns to a more dominant form. Bailey? ugh. Arroyo? IMO he's a DFA candidate and a contract waiting to be eaten. Chapman should be starting in Louisville. If Moore in TB is the real deal, I'd go all in to get James Shields.

Get one upper tier SP and this offense, which leads the NL in HR's, runs scored and is third in OPS can win the division. especially with offensive upgrades expected in LF, 3B and IMO CF and SS. In fact, if the offense as projected stays healthy, it could be scary good.

So yeah... I'm a smidge optimistic. If the rotation is upgraded. Chapman can be a real wildcard here. Shields, Cueto, Leake, with Chapman/Bailey/Arroyo/Wood/Volquez in the final 2 spots... Yes please.

lollipopcurve
09-16-2011, 05:18 PM
Somewhat positive. There's a fantastic influx of young talent over the last 2-3 years.

Not "very positive" because the pitching has faltered.

dougdirt
09-16-2011, 05:20 PM
Based on our assets, I'm optimistic. Based on my belief about whether management will capitalize on our assets, I'm pessimistic. That leaves me neutral.

I am almost right in line with this. I am a fan of our assets in terms of players and minor league staff/scouting. I am not a fan of the plan I see being laid out/executed by the front office at all though and even if you have all the players in the world, if the plan to use them properly is incredibly poor, it won't matter about the players. That puts me at "somewhat negative".

cincrazy
09-16-2011, 05:54 PM
I'm somewhat negative. I believe this team has a ton of potential, but I'm not sure I believe in this front office and on field leaders to get the most out of that potential. Chapman was mishandled this season, Alonso should've been up sooner along with Cozart, Mes isn't getting enough time IMO. I have a whole list of complaints and frustrations.

But I think with the right moves, this team can position itself nicely as the favorites of the Central the next few years.

redsmetz
09-16-2011, 06:52 PM
I chose somewhat optimistic. This season, as others have noted, has been a major disappointment, but a good part of it has been just some fairly bad luck, things not meshes (pitching's there, hitting's not - then vice versa, some injuries, etc). But overall I like much of the talent level of this team. There's been few times this year where I didn't see some spark of what can be.

I'm not as down on the pitching staff as many seem to be. Yes, the Arroyo contract is likely an albatross. I'm a big fan of Bailey's, have been since he turned the maturity corner two years back. I understand he can still be up and down, but he's got the talent they saw when they drafted him. Will it all pan out? Who knows? Who expected this disaster, other than some of see such things constantly? That said, I'm not against adding a piece. I'm not sold on the numbers for pitchers ("he's a 1, he's a three), but another solid arm would be a great addition.

I do believe that Jocketty must be dealing some parts. He has quite a lot of AAA talent that's ready either here or elsewhere. Capitalize on that!

mth123
09-16-2011, 07:41 PM
Based on our assets, I'm optimistic. Based on my belief about whether management will capitalize on our assets, I'm pessimistic. That leaves me neutral.

Me too, Is bi-polar an option? I'm very positive in that the Reds have assembled a young core that can compete for it all with the right moves and have enough redundancy to make the trades they need without taking much of a setback in the areas that they trade from.

I just don't think they will actually make those moves. So the optimism I have over the organization's positioning is as high as its been since the 70s. My pessimism about them assembling a complete roster that won't squander its opportunity is also at an all time high.

WebScorpion
09-16-2011, 08:44 PM
I'm somewhat positive. I'm not overly optimistic about the front office's ability to get this team what they need to be a lock for the playoffs. However, I think they've got enough talent to get there without much more help. I think a healthy Rolen, Cozart, and Cueto would have put us in the thick of it this year.:thumbup:

Slyder
09-16-2011, 09:35 PM
IIRC, that "don't trade the crown jewels" movement in the late 80's lead to a world series win in 1990.

Where would the 90 Reds have been without trading Stillwell for Jackson? But wasn't Stillwell considered a "very good prospect" since he was a 2nd overall pick?

Or where would any of the recent Reds teams have been without trading Wily Mo Pena for Bronson Arroyo?

I wasn't old enough to really follow baseball that closely but if you always wait for the "Crown Jewels" to come together you're always going to be waiting. Eventually you have to cash in some of the guys in deals for pieces to help the process sooner if you want to bring about a 90 type season. That is one thing that this front office has yet to show, they haven't picked their horses and gone with them to the point of waving multiple guys and getting fluff if that back in return.

They continue to let log jams develop of guys that many on this board seem to think are interchangable. Instead of letting it build why not try and trade some of them for starting pitching (which we seem to lack beyond the high minors/majors) rather than being forced to let guys go for nothing?

On the scale I must say I am slightly negative. I like that Alonso is getting a chance and is saying the right things to at least be "don't hurt us in the field" but will Dusty use him right? Will Dusty run Rolen out there everyday for "professional" at bats even at the expense of the team if/when he gets dinged up? Will Dusty bat Phillips or Rolen in the cleanup spot to "break up the lefties"? Will we find a hammer to go along with Cueto?

Caveat Emperor
09-16-2011, 10:34 PM
The team is just as much in need of a radical overhaul as any of the teams were over the last 10 years -- parts that don't fit together, gaping holes in certain parts of the roster, etc. The difference now is that the overall talent level is much higher, and they do have the parts to go fix it.

Question is will they?

FWIW, I'm still 100% behind trading Joey Votto for pitching this offseason. I can understand why people wouldn't be, but the fact is that this team is going absolutely nowhere until it puts a stronger rotation out there.

HokieRed
09-16-2011, 10:53 PM
Given we'll probably have to see Bronson for another 200 innings next year, I have to be slightly negative, despite the fact that's completely contrary to my nature and disposition.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-17-2011, 12:44 AM
Neutral.

Re-sign Cordero? Meh

Janish getting in PA's north of Louisville? Double Meh.

Chapman's usage this year. Triple Meh.

Run differential, bad luck, and some decent prospects are the only things keeping me from going to the other side.

Captain Hook
09-17-2011, 02:19 AM
I believe this team has the talent to compete for a division title for at least the next two years.I also think Walt is smart enough that he won't completely screw that up.He may not make that big move(maybe he won't have to)that puts the team on the same level as the Phillies/Yankees/Red Sox but he'll put a team out there that has a good chance to do more then shoot for getting over .500 every year.Even though that's what the team is looking at now,I think most of us can agree that it's not where the Reds or most of us thought they'd be at this point when the season began.Because of that disappointment I can't be completely positive but I am somewhat positive.

Captain Hook
09-17-2011, 02:59 AM
The team is just as much in need of a radical overhaul as any of the teams were over the last 10 years -- parts that don't fit together, gaping holes in certain parts of the roster, etc. The difference now is that the overall talent level is much higher, and they do have the parts to go fix it.

Question is will they?

FWIW, I'm still 100% behind trading Joey Votto for pitching this offseason. I can understand why people wouldn't be, but the fact is that this team is going absolutely nowhere until it puts a stronger rotation out there.

If you want to be a dead lock to contend every year you have to go out and fill those holes.I don't believe a overhaul is needed though.The problem is that there aren't many teams with the money to go out and fill every hole and adress every weakness.Even some of the teams that do have the money aren't able to adress everything.Usually the teams with really deep pockets address enough or overcompensate in another area and are able to make a playoff run every year but there are always a few really good teams that spend a good amount of money but have a down year for one reason or another.Usually because of holes that are easy to point out once the season has ended.

Maybe trading Votto does improve the team but if they get the same kind of pitching as they have this year will it really make a difference?IMO it's going to take some improvement from a few guys(mainly pitchers) and some of the new faces(mainly position players) stepping up.It's posible that an ace is acquired but if your banking on that along with trading Votto as something that will happen this offseason I think your in for a disappointment.I think most of the answers to filling the holes are already in the system and have to be used and used properly.Nothing against the Gomes,Cairos and Lewis's of the baseball world but I really hope there isn't a dime spent this offseason to acquire someone like them to fill a hole.I'm not even in favor of spending a small chunk of money on a reliever other then resigning Cordero for 4 or 5 million.If they can get an ace by trading a few really young guys along with one of our current starters and maybe Heisey or Stubbs too,then fine but other then that, I'd just assume the team makes no moves at all this offseason.I don't want a few hard to move pieces that are making 3 or 4 mil taking up payroll that can be better used.

Ron Madden
09-17-2011, 03:27 AM
I voted Neutral.

I love the young talent in the organization but I have very little faith that the front office and Dusty Baker will use that young talent to the club's best advantage.

We still need better pitching.

corkedbat
09-17-2011, 04:51 AM
I went neutral, but basically I'n taking a wait and see attude over the offseason. If they stand pat again, I may slip over to the darkside (I think they'll be active though).

Reds/Flyers Fan
09-17-2011, 08:33 AM
Neutral.

Walt Jocketty's complete inaction the last two years has been frustrating, and I see nothing to indicate that will change this offseason. The whole "We're happy with what we have" attitude of the front office doesn't exactly make me excited for 2012 or want to rush out and buy tickets.

Add to that the total mishandling and wasted year of Aroldis Chapman, the insistence on playing underperforming players long after they've jumped the shark (Johnny Gomes, Paul Janish), the questionable dumpster-diving signings every offseason under WJ (Corey Patterson, Willie Tavares, Fred Lewis, Johnny Gomes the second time), and the seemingly lack of direction or a plan for young players such as Yonder Alonso (third base? Really?).

My neutral stance also stems from the fact that we play in a sad-sack division populated with the likes of the Astros and Pirates, but that's tempered by the fact that the Brewers, Cards and probably Cubs this offseason are/will be much more aggressive at bettering their teams than the sleepy Reds.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-17-2011, 08:42 AM
Neutral.

Walt Jocketty's complete inaction the last two years has been frustrating, and I see nothing to indicate that will change this offseason. The whole "We're happy with what we have" attitude of the front office doesn't exactly make me excited for 2012 or want to rush out and buy tickets.

Add to that the total mishandling and wasted year of Aroldis Chapman, the insistence on playing underperforming players long after they've jumped the shark (Johnny Gomes, Paul Janish), the questionable dumpster-diving signings every offseason under WJ (Corey Patterson, Willie Tavares, Fred Lewis, Johnny Gomes the second time), and the seemingly lack of direction or a plan for young players such as Yonder Alonso (third base? Really?).

My neutral stance also stems from the fact that we play in a sad-sack division populated with the likes of the Astros and Pirates, but that's tempered by the fact that the Brewers, Cards and probably Cubs this offseason are/will be much more aggressive at bettering their teams than the sleepy Reds.

That about sums it up.

Red in Chicago
09-17-2011, 08:50 AM
Stop the votto trade talk.

Reds/Flyers Fan
09-17-2011, 11:07 AM
Stop the votto trade talk.

He'll eventually be traded, whether it's this offseason, next offseason or the 2013 trading deadline. This team just can't afford to let a player like that walk away to a mega market and get nothing in return.

Caveat Emperor
09-17-2011, 05:02 PM
Stop the votto trade talk.

He's eating up a ton of money on a team with a very specific salary floor, plays a position the Reds have a pre-arb player ready to take over at, and is about the only player on the team guaranteed to bring back high-value in a position of need.

cincinnati chili
09-17-2011, 06:24 PM
Somewhat positive. I think the Reds made the same mistake that decent organizations have been making for decades - going too long with underperforming pitching just because the same pitchers had performed well in the past.

And by the way, nice poll question.

MikeS21
09-17-2011, 10:24 PM
Tonight on the WLW sports show that came right before the game - I think it was Ken Broo-made a great observation. He said that once the arbitration guys get their raises, he said that Jocketty was going to be left with only about $5-$6 million to play with, and that will NOT get an upgrade in LF or a TOR starter. Walt can trade all the "crown jewels" but they don't make enough to offset the cost of upgrades.

He suggested trading either Votto or Bruce. That would free up needed money. But you also create other holes that need to be filled. He mentioned Arroyo as an obvious choice to trade, but if the Reds trade him, immediately he is owed deferred money equaling $15 million, which the Reds can't afford right now if they want to compete with established players.

I voted "neutral." The so-called inactivity on Jocketty's part, I see as a good thing. I think he is smart enough to know that he is not receiving value back for the the offers he is making. While I agree they is a clogged pipeline for some of these players, I also don't think the Reds need to give them away.

In fact, the "clogs" in the pipeline may be the very reason most GM's are lowballing Jocketty because they perceive he HAS to unload some of his prospects.

Roy Tucker
09-17-2011, 11:51 PM
I'd like to be positive, but I can't quite get there. I see an organization that seems content to hang around the fringes of contending.

Two things disturb me.

I see no urgency. The Reds just lah-dee-dahed this whole season away. I understand showing patience, but there also has to be some responsibility to produce.

The second and more disturbing is that I see no direction and no intelligence in what they do. They have some good parts and pieces, but no apparent plan as to how they are going to put it together. Chapman and Alonso are prime examples. Just what in the world are they doing with those guys?

KronoRed
09-18-2011, 01:20 AM
I'm ambivalent, I was before the year began as well, this team is just not exciting, at its very best it's hovering over .500... Yahoo?

757690
09-18-2011, 10:01 AM
Tonight on the WLW sports show that came right before the game - I think it was Ken Broo-made a great observation. He said that once the arbitration guys get their raises, he said that Jocketty was going to be left with only about $5-$6 million to play with, and that will NOT get an upgrade in LF or a TOR starter. Walt can trade all the "crown jewels" but they don't make enough to offset the cost of upgrades

That's not completley accurate. If the Reds pick up Phillips' option and pay the expected raises, it would give them around $10M of payroll room, assuming payroll stays exactly the same as this 2011. Broo's not including the deferred money that Arroyo and others are getting, and assuming payroll stays stagnant. Considering the bump in attendance this year, I'd be surprised if the team only had an $80M payroll in 2012.

They could save even more if they move guys like Bailey or Volquez, or work out an extension of Phillips that has a lower 2012 salary.

The Reds have the payflex to get a solid LF or #1 starting pitcher if they want to.

mth123
09-18-2011, 10:13 AM
That's not completley accurate. If the Reds pick up Phillips' option and pay the expected raises, it would give them around $10M of payroll room, assuming payroll stays exactly the same as this 2011. Broo's not including the deferred money that Arroyo and others are getting, and assuming payroll stays stagnant. Considering the bump in attendance this year, I'd be surprised if the team only had an $80M payroll in 2012.

They could save even more if they move guys like Bailey or Volquez, or work out an extension of Phillips that has a lower 2012 salary.

The Reds have the payflex to get a solid LF or #1 starting pitcher if they want to.

Agreed. They could also get a little creative and move some interchangeable part like Masset who will probably get $3 Million or so in arb. Heck even Alonso will be making $1 Million in 2012.

This is why they should have shipped off Ramon, Renteria and Cordero in August and put the savings toward 2012. It would have given them another $5 or $6 Million to play with. That is more important than any maginal prospect they could have gotten for them.

James Shields only makes $7 Million in 2012 BTW. Sure they can't sign CJ Wilson for 4 years at $60 Million, but there are things they can do. Instead, they'll punt and start talking about 2015.

IslandRed
09-18-2011, 10:12 PM
I put "somewhat optimistic." For whatever reason, whenever a team takes a big step forward like the Reds did in 2010, it often takes a step back the next year. Sometimes it's because they caught all the breaks the year before and the luck runs out, sometimes it's complacency, sometimes it's a combination of the two. The Reds were clearly the victims of complacency in my opinion. 2010 was not some sort of magical season:

First base, second base = standouts
Shortstop = mess
Third base = hot first half by Rolen, faded after the break
Left field = meh
Center field = Acceptable overall from Stubbs, but with long stretches of ineffectiveness
Right field = Very good overall from Bruce but also disappeared for awhile
Catchers = rock solid
Rotation = Leake started hot, faded; Volquez not there until midseason; Bailey missed a lot of time; Harang MIA virtually all year; saved by Cueto, Wood and depth.
Bullpen = generally solid

Minus the hot start by Rolen, that doesn't look a lot different from how this year's team went overall. There was a lot that went right in '10, but plenty that went wrong. With a young team, it was possible they would regress this year but it was just as likely they'd take another step forward. They didn't. Now, with a losing record all but assured and the holes more evident and a stack of prospects awaiting hold-or-fold decisions, complacency isn't a feasible option.

Where I disagree with some of you is, I don't believe people who were wrong once are doomed to be wrong forevermore. Jocketty has made plenty of bold moves in the past. In retrospect, standing pat didn't work this past offseason. There were arguments to be made for it, especially in light of payroll restrictions, but it didn't work. Results are results. He didn't get it done. That doesn't suddenly make him a moron. He has work to do now, he knows it, I expect him to do it and I'll judge the work when we get to spring training.

Mario-Rijo
09-19-2011, 02:34 AM
Couldn't be more negative about this organization. Why? Because they are backed by a so-so fan base and there is no future in that. But even if they were backed strongly they don't have top of the line F.O. or ownership. The only good thing I can say about Bob,Walt and company is their heart may be in the right place so I take it back I could actually be a bit more negative. If they want to change that they can empty the bank for Votto now and quit wasting opportunities they have had in the past like getting out from under guys like Arroyo & Cordero. How many smart teams have let guys like this go and replace them with younger cheaper guys without missing a beat. Re-sign Votto to whatever he wants he is worth it, hire whoever runs the Rays and i'll be ecstatic.

TRF
09-19-2011, 05:51 PM
The Reds do not need an upgrade in LF. Alonso, Heisey, Sappelt. I have zero problems with that trio splitting time in LF/CF (Heisey, Sappelt, Stubbs)

The Reds do not need an upgrade at 3B. Rolen, Francisco and Frazier. I have zero problems with that trio splitting time at 3B.

The Reds have 2 holes. SP and CL if you buy into the closer theory, which apparently the Reds do, along with every other major league team.

So, assuming Arroyo's 2011 was due entirely to the mono, and assuming he can at least keep the reds in enough games to win 12 games (2011 so far 8-12, the Reds are 12-18 when he pitches) assuming 4-6 vultured wins gives the Reds 16-18 wins in games he pitches in 2012. He's go a whole offseason to recover and gain strength. And he's likely pitching for his next contract, a 2-3 year deal somewhere. So, I'm leaning towards optimistic with Arroyo, and I've never been the biggest Arroyo backer.

Cueto... Well I've liked him since Dayton. He may not post these numbers again next season, but a low 3's ERA with 150+K's and say 210 IP? I can get behind that. 2011 games in which Cueto pitched Reds record 16-7, Cueto's record 9-5. 8 more starts gives him just over 200 IP.

Last year, Arroyo and Cueto combined for 29 wins. I can see that in 2012

Leake is winning me over. Slowly. Reds record in games Leake pitched 17-12, Leake's record 12-9. Nice low WHIP which surprised me.

Bailey? Well honestly if you look at his numbers compared to Leake, you'd see they are fairly similar. Leake has had better luck and health. IF Bailey can stay healthy for 30 starts, He's got a shot at a 15 win season in him. I'm skeptical on his ability to stay healthy.

That leaves the #5 starter. Volquez/Chapman/Wood/Maloney/LeCure. Willis is gone I think, LeCure could be a candidate to close for a year, but IMO, he's also not a bad choice for 5th starter. He strikes guys out, he's got the best K/9 of any reliever not named Chapman. He pitched 75 innings so far, so jumping him to 120 wouldn't be too bad. I like him as the next CL, but I was a huge fan when the Reds picked him in the draft. He was slated to be the Longhorn's #1 starter going into the season they won the CWS. Guy can pitch.

I was a guy that was overly enamored of Yorman Rodriguez and Juan Duran. I'd package either of them plus Grandal, Wood, Maloney, Joseph, Phipps for Shields. Matt Moore is ready to be in the Rays rotation. So overwhelm them. Grandal is the key here. He'd be their best catching prospect and only a year away from the 25 man roster. That's a lot of talent to throw at TB. If they bit it allows the Reds to put Volquez in the bullpen and Chapman starting in Louisville.

I think this move is a no-brainer. The core is young enough with solid veteran presence. The pitching improves. Just need a little luck health-wise.

yeah. I'm leaning optimistic...