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Sea Ray
09-17-2011, 11:12 AM
I could be off base but I think the following comment in this morning's paper from John Fay was meant as a slam to Redszoners:


You break down stats 99 ways to Sunday these days. All you need is a laptop and some time on your hands.

Seems like a lot of times they're used to tear a player down. That's a relatively new thing. When I was a kid, people talked about Tony Perez having 90 RBI at the All Star break. I don't remember people indicting him for only having 39 in the 2nd half.

What do you think? Is he tired of tweets and e-mails from stathead Redszoners or am I reading too much into this?

Did Tony Perez ever have 90 RBIs before the All Star break?

Blitz Dorsey
09-17-2011, 11:17 AM
Fay is very shallow -- anyone who follows him on Twitter knows what I'm talking about. He half-answers questions and thinks he's doing people a service. Someone asked him last night, "Why is Janish playing instead of Renteria?" Instead of actually answering the question, Fay said "Funny, I got a lot of opposite tweets earlier in the season."

Really, John? You had fans clamoring for more playing time for Paul Janish? No you didn't. I called him out on it but he never responded.

So, yeah, I could see someone like Fay taking a shot at sabermetricians. Fay is shallow enough to do so.

top6
09-17-2011, 11:18 AM
I could be off base but I think the following comment in this morning's paper from John Fay was meant as a slam to Redszoners:



What do you think? Is he tired of tweets and e-mails for stathead Redszoners or am I reading too much into this?

Did Tony Perez ever have 90 RBIs before the All Star break?

I don't know, but that is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen written. It's times like these I wish Fire Joe Morgan (http://www.firejoemorgan.com/) was still around.

traderumor
09-17-2011, 11:26 AM
Even Marty has surpassed Fay in his knowledge of the game and willingness to explore facts to support his opinions. Though, I would say Thom and Fay probably have some mind-numbingly dumb baseball conversations. They are at about the same level, which is amazing since they have access to so much more than fans who seem to get it.

oneupper
09-17-2011, 11:57 AM
Did Tony Perez ever have 90 RBIs before the All Star break?

1970. Perez was on pace to break all sorts of records.

Roy Tucker
09-17-2011, 12:51 PM
Fay is a paint-by-numbers guy. No depth, no character, no love for the game. I get the feeling he's just punching the time clock. His stories all follow the same template.

Any semi-competent college-educated journalist could do the same quality job he does.

So any slam he makes to us here, well, he can just kiss my big white hairy butt.

SunDeck
09-17-2011, 12:58 PM
I have my own mental image of what most regular Redszoners look like and I'm afraid you have altered my mental picture of you completely, Roy.

As for Fay, he's an Elder guy and therefore a friend of our family, so I'll reserve judgment.

vic715
09-17-2011, 12:59 PM
I could be off base but I think the following comment in this morning's paper from John Fay was meant as a slam to Redszoners:



What do you think? Is he tired of tweets and e-mails from stathead Redszoners or am I reading too much into this?

Did Tony Perez ever have 90 RBIs before the All Star break?

I think he did in 1970.he had 129 that year so 90 before and 39 after.

cinreds21
09-17-2011, 01:47 PM
I've said it before, I feel like Fay and sometimes even Sheldon were thrown into these positions and have no idea about baseball. There are so many times that Fay doesn't know how something (baseball-wise) works or gets it wrong. I don't like them.

Joseph
09-17-2011, 01:52 PM
I don't see it as a shot at RZ. I also don't see a lot wrong with it. Some people use the SABR stats to find additional enjoyment and some, like Fay suggests, find the stats they want to tear down a player. Big deal.

I love the game, I love watching it. I enjoy discussing stats but I don't need BABIP or xFIP to understand the game.

traderumor
09-17-2011, 03:24 PM
Fay is a paint-by-numbers guy. No depth, no character, no love for the game. I get the feeling he's just punching the time clock. His stories all follow the same template.

Any semi-competent college-educated journalist could do the same quality job he does.

So any slam he makes to us here, well, he can just kiss my big white hairy butt.In other words, he's incompetent. I agree ;)

Always Red
09-17-2011, 03:31 PM
I don't think it was a shot against RZ at all.

Lots of people have a computer, like baseball and stats, and have some time on their hands. And the entire world is seemingly negative these days- John Fay included- just page through his snarky twitter feed sometime.

We're a sensitive bunch around here.

marcshoe
09-17-2011, 03:39 PM
Fay is very shallow -- anyone who follows him on Twitter knows what I'm talking about. He half-answers questions and thinks he's doing people a service. Someone asked him last night, "Why is Janish playing instead of Renteria?" Instead of actually answering the question, Fay said "Funny, I got a lot of opposite tweets earlier in the season."

Really, John? You had fans clamoring for more playing time for Paul Janish? No you didn't. I called him out on it but he never responded.

So, yeah, I could see someone like Fay taking a shot at sabermetricians. Fay is shallow enough to do so.

Interesting example. I nearly fired off a reply calling him out on that very tweet, but didn't, figuring he'd just laugh it off since he's the professional.

marcshoe
09-17-2011, 03:42 PM
1970. Perez was on pace to break all sorts of records.

I was 8 in 1970, and I'm pretty sure Fay's younger than I am. I just might question how clear his memory of what people did and didn't say back then really is.

fwiw, I actually do have some fuzzy memories of the year Perez had, even though I didn't start following baseball closely until 1972.

edabbs44
09-17-2011, 03:48 PM
You're so vain, you probably think this thread is about you

mth123
09-17-2011, 04:30 PM
You're so vain, you probably think this thread is about you

Agreed :laugh:. He blogs for the enquirer and people post replies there. Seems like that would be the obvious place he's reading whatever upsets him.

And if it is referring to Redszone, who cares really?

remdog
09-17-2011, 04:49 PM
I don't see it as a shot at RZ. I also don't see a lot wrong with it. Some people use the SABR stats to find additional enjoyment and some, like Fay suggests, find the stats they want to tear down a player. Big deal.

I love the game, I love watching it. I enjoy discussing stats but I don't need BABIP or xFIP to understand the game.

Excellent post, Joseph.

Rem

jojo
09-17-2011, 08:38 PM
I don't know of anyone who has put in the time it takes to learn how to use sabermetrics that has done so they can tear down players.

Fay mostly profited a canard...

westofyou
09-17-2011, 10:22 PM
You're so vain, you probably think this thread is about you

Stupidity talks, vanity acts.

Victor Hugo

edabbs44
09-18-2011, 11:08 PM
I don't know of anyone who has put in the time it takes to learn how to use sabermetrics that has done so they can tear down players.

Fay mostly profited a canard...

Reading that quote, I'm not sure that he is saying that. But I didn't see the entire article.

Sea Ray
09-19-2011, 11:30 AM
Reading that quote, I'm not sure that he is saying that. But I didn't see the entire article.

That quote was all there was to that subject. You didn't miss anything

Sea Ray
09-19-2011, 11:33 AM
I don't see it as a shot at RZ. I also don't see a lot wrong with it. Some people use the SABR stats to find additional enjoyment and some, like Fay suggests, find the stats they want to tear down a player. Big deal.

I love the game, I love watching it. I enjoy discussing stats but I don't need BABIP or xFIP to understand the game.

To think that is to ignore the reputation of RZ, especially ORG. Like it or not, our rep around here is of a bunch of baseball nerds with slide rules and a subscription to Baseball America. Simply put we are the representative example of the type of fan Fay is dissing there

Sea Ray
09-19-2011, 11:35 AM
Here's the link if anyone needs to see the whole column:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110916/SPT04/309160114/Joey-Votto-would-give-National-League-MVP-Dodgers-Kemp-year

traderumor
09-19-2011, 01:07 PM
Another thought on Fay's "insight." I see more depth in short posts on RZ than I ever see in entire columns that he writes.

BTW, what would people say about Perez? "Well, certainly no one thought he could keep up that pace. We knew that would normalize over the course of the year." Is that "using a stat to criticize"?

Finally, I think Fay doesn't like statistical analysis because it exposes his surface knowledge of the game. Ironic that folks do a much better job in their spare time than he does with a full time job on the same subject. If I'm his employer, I'd wonder what he does with his time considering the garbage he produces.

nate
09-19-2011, 02:19 PM
Another thought on Fay's "insight." I see more depth in short posts on RZ than I ever see in entire columns that he writes.

BTW, what would people say about Perez? "Well, certainly no one thought he could keep up that pace. We knew that would normalize over the course of the year." Is that "using a stat to criticize"?

Finally, I think Fay doesn't like statistical analysis because it exposes his surface knowledge of the game. Ironic that folks do a much better job in their spare time than he does with a full time job on the same subject. If I'm his employer, I'd wonder what he does with his time considering the garbage he produces.

This is kind of where I'm at with Fay. High five!

When I was 8, I didn't talk about Tony Perez' RBI splits either.

marcshoe
09-19-2011, 03:10 PM
Honestly, whether the comment had anything to do with Redszone or not is secondary; the problem is that it betrays a certain attitude. Fay's not so much Old School as he is irritable and irritating. It would be nice if someone whose full-time job is to write about baseball would put as much effort as is possible into understanding it. I don't see that happening. Fay seems more concerned about just telling how he feels about the game than either learning more or enlightening others.

He reminds me of an old college football coach who was suffering through a bad season. When asked on his radio show about trying new approaches, he made a comment about how people who said stuff like that usually sent him plays that called for 12 men on the field, and totally dismissed the idea with this comment. It's lazy thinking, and while that's fine for a fan, for someone who is paid to communicate about the game, it's dereliction of duty.

dougdirt
09-19-2011, 05:33 PM
He reminds me of an old college football coach who was suffering through a bad season. When asked on his radio show about trying new approaches, he made a comment about how people who said stuff like that usually sent him plays that called for 12 men on the field, and totally dismissed the idea with this comment. It's lazy thinking, and while that's fine for a fan, for someone who is paid to communicate about the game, it's dereliction of duty.

This is my problem with a lot of "baseball people". The Reds announcers, almost as an entire group, seem to be this way too. Really, really annoys me.

signalhome
09-19-2011, 08:09 PM
This is my problem with a lot of "baseball people". The Reds announcers, almost as an entire group, seem to be this way too. Really, really annoys me.

I don't want to lump Welsh in with the rest of them. He says his share of stupid things, but I have always got the impression that he's willing to learn new things and try to advance his understanding of baseball. I could be completely wrong, but it has always seemed that way to me.

traderumor
09-21-2011, 04:33 PM
I was ok with Welsh until he called out an old teammate while his son was batting for not acknowledging a Christmas card. Oh, and mentioned it a couple times prior to his son entering the game. It was a very unprofessional exchange.

Hollcat
09-22-2011, 01:20 AM
That was Bench's first MVP year. Wonder if he had a monster 2nd half and took a lot of RBI opportunities away from Perez ( if he batted in front of him)

Hollcat
09-22-2011, 01:37 AM
Just looked it up Bench had 77 rbi's at the all star break in '70 and 71 afterward

WVRedsFan
09-22-2011, 01:37 AM
That was Bench's first MVP year. Wonder if he had a monster 2nd half and took a lot of RBI opportunities away from Perez ( if he batted in front of him)Nice problem to have, unlike this year's version of the Reds. But that's another topic for another time...

GAC
09-22-2011, 05:25 AM
Maybe I'm missing something here, but does Fay even know RZ exists?

membengal
09-22-2011, 07:02 AM
I would guess so, GAC.

But I also think it likely he hardly ever reads it. As for his comment was the basis for starting this thread...it is almost certainly aimed at the people that interact with him on twitter, the medium where he gets immediate feedback.

Ghosts of 1990
09-22-2011, 11:07 AM
Fay is very shallow -- anyone who follows him on Twitter knows what I'm talking about. He half-answers questions and thinks he's doing people a service. Someone asked him last night, "Why is Janish playing instead of Renteria?" Instead of actually answering the question, Fay said "Funny, I got a lot of opposite tweets earlier in the season."

Really, John? You had fans clamoring for more playing time for Paul Janish? No you didn't. I called him out on it but he never responded.

So, yeah, I could see someone like Fay taking a shot at sabermetricians. Fay is shallow enough to do so.

He is really a tempermental guy.... and he loves playing devils advocate on almost everything.

You can tweet Fay and say "black" and he'll respond 99% of the time with "no, white".

You can prove a good point to him, backed up by numbers and statistics and he'll often discredit it with a tweet based on only his opinion. I have seen it hundreds and hundreds of times.

Ghosts of 1990
09-22-2011, 11:11 AM
I was ok with Welsh until he called out an old teammate while his son was batting for not acknowledging a Christmas card. Oh, and mentioned it a couple times prior to his son entering the game. It was a very unprofessional exchange.

When was this?

marcshoe
09-22-2011, 12:17 PM
That was a little bit of a weird exchange. It almost seemed as if he let that slip without thinking, then (goaded a bit by Thom) dug a deeper hole while trying to dig his way out. The minor league teammate was Ron Johnson, I think, father of Chris.

traderumor
09-22-2011, 05:56 PM
When was this?Tuesday night's game, when only diehards like myself were probably watching as the infamous Chris Johnson hit one onto the concourse via the bleacher exit off the also infamous Bill Bray.

GAC
09-23-2011, 05:22 AM
I would guess so, GAC.

But I also think it likely he hardly ever reads it. As for his comment was the basis for starting this thread...it is almost certainly aimed at the people that interact with him on twitter, the medium where he gets immediate feedback.

Since it's called Twitter, would Fay be a twit? :mooner: