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View Full Version : What QUALITY starting pitchers are obtainable by trade or free agency?



Vottomatic
09-27-2011, 10:33 AM
I think we can all agree that this current Reds offense is good enough with the potential to be better next year as guys mature and reach their potential. Health is always an issue.

Starting pitching is really what this team needs. I'd even say the bullpen needs bolstering.

I've started this thread for some potential deals that could be made. Obviously the Reds can't acquire Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Lincecum, Kershaw, Sabathia, etc. But what teams would consider a trade for their quality starters? Any ideas? The season is over and this could make for some fun discussion.

brm7675
09-27-2011, 12:10 PM
I just don't see anyone out there via trade being available that would be a significant upgrade over what we have and what we would have to part with. I think the path to take is to find a quality hitter.

Krawhitham
09-27-2011, 01:29 PM
the offense not being consistent is the problem

they will score 42 runs in 4 games then 15 runs for 10 games. They average 4+ runs a game but they go 6-8 over the 14 games


The Reds have had 89 quality starts this season. They also had 89 QS last season

Most it not all the Reds pitching issues are Arroyo & EV. Without those two the team ERA is 3.87. Arroyo has a good chance of bouncing back (he has an offseason regimen set up to try to regain his fastball) , EV will not be a Red next season

Stray
09-27-2011, 01:56 PM
The team just strikes out too much, that makes it hard to be consistent. It isn't just Stubbs either, it's up and down the lineup. I don't see that changing.

For the right deal I could see Tampa trading Shields. We'd have to give up some good talent though.

Vottomatic
09-27-2011, 02:56 PM
the offense not being consistent is the problem

they will score 42 runs in 4 games then 15 runs for 10 games. They average 4+ runs a game but they go 6-8 over the 14 games


The Reds have had 89 quality starts this season. They also had 89 QS last season

Most it not all the Reds pitching issues are Arroyo & EV. Without those two the team ERA is 3.87. Arroyo has a good chance of bouncing back (he has an offseason regimen set up to try to regain his fastball) , EV will not be a Red next season

Good stat.

brm7675
09-27-2011, 02:58 PM
The team just strikes out too much, that makes it hard to be consistent. It isn't just Stubbs either, it's up and down the lineup. I don't see that changing.

For the right deal I could see Tampa trading Shields. We'd have to give up some good talent though.

I wouldn't mind having Shields, but to me TB would be sheer idiots to deal him. You don't find pitchers like him that often and at a reasonable contract.

Vottomatic
09-27-2011, 03:28 PM
I read somewhere, a good analysis that said Tampa has some good starting pitching in their minors, and that management considers and favors Price and Hellickson as their top 2 starters. Davis, Niemann and Moore are all young up and comers, and Shields is about 30 years old. They have 7 players arbitration eligible. They have options on Shields for '12 thru '14 but he is about to become expensive. They also have positional needs to fill that Shields could help them obtain. Upton is about to become expensive as he is arb eligible. They also have options on Shoppach, Zobrist. Longoria, Wade Davis that all amount to pay increases. Their $42M payroll is about to balloon $10 or $20M and ownership wants to keep it down while filling their holes in the lineup.

Look for Shields to be dealt in the offseason unless the Rays can't get fair return.

FireDusty
09-27-2011, 04:24 PM
I say we make it known that Votto & Stubbs are available and see what becomes available.

Someone might be foolish enough to think Stubbs is going to figure it out and partnering a bona fide stud in Votto with a bona fide dud in Stubbs might net us someone like David Price.

I feel like Alonzo at first would give you somewhere between 90 and 100 RBI. If you consider that you may be able to add a starter that allows 1 fewer run per start than the slot he replaces, then that is 33 fewer runs you have to make up. The difference between Votto & Alonzo then becomes a wash.

Then, you Give Heisey & Sappelt left & center.

Those 2 would be less defensively, but both of them combined would equal the strike out total of Stubbs.

If Heisey were just given left field like Gomes was and allowed to have 600 at bats......30 homers.

brm7675
09-27-2011, 05:05 PM
Problem with trading Votto is you will never get equal value in return since any team getting him knows they won't have him that long.

texasdave
09-27-2011, 05:33 PM
Arroyo has a good chance of bouncing back (he has an offseason regimen set up to try to regain his fastball).

There is this guy who goes by the name of Father Time. He also has this off-season regimen. It is a very effective regimen. Works just about every time. Good luck, Bronson.

redsfan1995
09-27-2011, 05:34 PM
Erik Bedard (33)
Mark Buehrle (33)
Chris Capuano (33)
Bruce Chen (35)
Bartolo Colon (39)
Aaron Cook (33) - $11MM mutual option with a $500K buyout
Kyle Davies (28)
Doug Davis (36)
Ryan Dempster (35) - $14MM player option, no buyout
Zach Duke (29) - $5.5MM club option with a $750K buyout
Jeff Francis (30)
Freddy Garcia (36)
Jon Garland (32) - $8MM club option with a $500K buyout
Aaron Harang (34) - $5MM mutual option with a $500K buyout
Rich Harden (30)
Livan Hernandez (37)
Hisashi Iwakuma (31)
Edwin Jackson (28)
Kenshin Kawakami (37)
Scott Kazmir (28) - $13.5MM club option with a $2.5MM buyout
Hiroki Kuroda (37)
Rodrigo Lopez (36)
Paul Maholm (30) - $9.75MM club option with a $750K buyout
Jason Marquis (33)
Kevin Millwood (37)
Sergio Mitre (31)
Roy Oswalt (34) - $16MM mutual option with a $2MM buyout
Brad Penny (34)
Oliver Perez (30)
Joel Pineiro (33)
C.C. Sabathia (31) - may opt out of remaining four years, $92MM
Javier Vazquez (35)
Tsuyoshi Wada (31)
Adam Wainwright (30) - $10MM*vesting option for '12, $12MM for '13*
Tim Wakefield (45)
Chien-Ming Wang (32)
Brandon Webb (33)
Dontrelle Willis (30)
C.J. Wilson (31)

redsfan1995
09-27-2011, 05:35 PM
the list i just posted are all the 2012 free agent starting pitchers.

brm7675
09-27-2011, 05:37 PM
There is this guy who goes by the name of Father Time. He also has this off-season regimen. It is a very effective regimen. Works just about every time. Good luck, Bronson.

If Bronson was a power pitcher I would agree, but he is not. As Jamie Moyer showed, with the style of pitcher Bronson is, he could have a very nice career into his 40's.

texasdave
09-27-2011, 05:40 PM
If Bronson was a power pitcher I would agree, but he is not. As Jamie Moyer showed, with the style of pitcher Bronson is, he could have a very nice career into his 40's.

People always bring this up. And for what reason I have no idea. If Bronson really is another Jamie Moyer, and he is not, then why did losing 1 MPH on his fastball so negatively affecting his pitching? And why is Bronson setting up a regimen already and being so gung-ho in his approach to get that 1 MPH on his fastball back? Good questions, I know. Obviously, Bronson feels he needs that extra bit of oomph on his cheese. Maybe you should get in touch with him and tell him he doesn't need to relax and enjoy his off-season. Tell him that he is another Jamie Moyer and relax. That will work.

brm7675
09-27-2011, 05:42 PM
Erik Bedard (33) - way overrated
Mark Buehrle (33) - Sox would never part with him
Chris Capuano (33) - Not that much better then what we have
Bruce Chen (35) - Really?
Bartolo Colon (39) - Please stop
Aaron Cook (33) - $11MM mutual option with a $500K buyout
Kyle Davies (28)
Doug Davis (36)
Ryan Dempster (35) - $14MM player option, no buyout
Zach Duke (29) - $5.5MM club option with a $750K buyout
Jeff Francis (30)
Freddy Garcia (36)
Jon Garland (32) - $8MM club option with a $500K buyout
Aaron Harang (34) - $5MM mutual option with a $500K buyout
Rich Harden (30)
Livan Hernandez (37)
Hisashi Iwakuma (31)
Edwin Jackson (28)
Kenshin Kawakami (37)
Scott Kazmir (28) - $13.5MM club option with a $2.5MM buyout
Hiroki Kuroda (37)
Rodrigo Lopez (36)
Paul Maholm (30) - $9.75MM club option with a $750K buyout
Jason Marquis (33)
Kevin Millwood (37)
Sergio Mitre (31)
Roy Oswalt (34) - $16MM mutual option with a $2MM buyout
Brad Penny (34)
Oliver Perez (30)
Joel Pineiro (33)
C.C. Sabathia (31) - may opt out of remaining four years, $92MM
Javier Vazquez (35)
Tsuyoshi Wada (31)
Adam Wainwright (30) - $10MM*vesting option for '12, $12MM for '13*
Tim Wakefield (45)
Chien-Ming Wang (32)
Brandon Webb (33)
Dontrelle Willis (30)
C.J. Wilson (31)

There isn't 1 pitcher on that list that I would give up much for..

brm7675
09-27-2011, 05:43 PM
People always bring this up. And for what reason I have no idea. If Bronson really is another Jamie Moyer, and he is not, then why did losing 1 MPH on his fastball so negatively affecting his pitching? And why is Bronson setting up a regimen already and being so gung-ho in his approach to get that 1 MPH on his fastball back? Good questions, I know. Obviously, Bronson feels he needs that extra bit of oomph on his cheese. Maybe you should get in touch with him and tell him he doesn't need to relax and enjoy his off-season. Tell him that he is another Jamie Moyer and relax. That will work.

I didn't say he didn't need to work out, what I said is that given his pitching style, he will be able to be more effective as he gets older over a hard throwing pitcher like say Homer is.

redsfan1995
09-27-2011, 05:46 PM
There isn't 1 pitcher on that list that I would give up much for..

i would take cj wilson he is a very good lefty and did well in last years playoffs but the reds dont have the money for him.

texasdave
09-27-2011, 05:51 PM
I didn't say he didn't need to work out, what I said is that given his pitching style, he will be able to be more effective as he gets older over a hard throwing pitcher like say Homer is.

And that is false. Why was he so ineffective this year with a slight dip in his velocity then? Moyer's fastball sat in the lower 80's. Bronson's average fastball was 87 this season. According to your way of thinking, he should have still had plenty of fastball. He didn't.

texasdave
09-27-2011, 05:57 PM
The Reds have had 89 quality starts this season. They also had 89 QS last season

Didn't you state about a week or so ago that they had 94 QS this year? They are leaking QS somewhere.

Here are some more stats.

In 2010 the NL team average ERA was 4.02. Cincinnati team ERA was 4.01.
In 2011 the NL team average ERA is 3.81. Cincinnati team ERA is 4.17.

The pitching took a step backwards this year.

brm7675
09-27-2011, 06:06 PM
And that is false. Why was he so ineffective this year with a slight dip in his velocity then? Moyer's fastball sat in the lower 80's. Bronson's average fastball was 87 this season. According to your way of thinking, he should have still had plenty of fastball. He didn't.

Because he wasn't 100% healthy, surprising how someone's physical abilities can be lessened when they are ill.

brm7675
09-27-2011, 06:09 PM
Didn't you state about a week or so ago that they had 94 QS this year? They are leaking QS somewhere.

Here are some more stats.

In 2010 the NL team average ERA was 4.02. Cincinnati team ERA was 4.01.
In 2011 the NL team average ERA is 3.81. Cincinnati team ERA is 4.17.

The pitching took a step backwards this year.

How much of that step back can be traced to both EV and Bronson? How different were their ERA's this year then lasts? I know both Cuteo and Leake were better this year over last, and I am willing to bet that Homer's was probably pretty close to the same these past two seasons. Also how much did the needed work by the bullpen early on impact? Also what role did Dusty play in the higher ERA due to poor handling this year?

texasdave
09-27-2011, 06:24 PM
Yes, you are right. The problem was the hitting. How anyone can look at the FACTS and not see that is a mystery. My bad.

Ohayou
09-27-2011, 06:28 PM
I read somewhere, a good analysis that said Tampa has some good starting pitching in their minors, and that management considers and favors Price and Hellickson as their top 2 starters. Davis, Niemann and Moore are all young up and comers, and Shields is about 30 years old. They have 7 players arbitration eligible. They have options on Shields for '12 thru '14 but he is about to become expensive. They also have positional needs to fill that Shields could help them obtain. Upton is about to become expensive as he is arb eligible. They also have options on Shoppach, Zobrist. Longoria, Wade Davis that all amount to pay increases. Their $42M payroll is about to balloon $10 or $20M and ownership wants to keep it down while filling their holes in the lineup.

Look for Shields to be dealt in the offseason unless the Rays can't get fair return.

Matt Moore and David Price will be the best 1-2 punch in all of baseball for many years to come.

brm7675
09-27-2011, 06:41 PM
Yes, you are right. The problem was the hitting. How anyone can look at the FACTS and not see that is a mystery. My bad.

give me Matt Kemp in LF and hitting 4th on this team and the exact same pitching staff and I like our chances.

texasdave
09-27-2011, 07:08 PM
give me Matt Kemp in LF and hitting 4th on this team and the exact same pitching staff and I like our chances.

What? You don't want Albert Pujols, Ryan Braun and Jose Bautista too?

brm7675
09-27-2011, 07:47 PM
What? You don't want Albert Pujols, Ryan Braun and Jose Bautista too?

Of those listed I would only be interested in Braun, not interested in teh other two.

Vottomatic
09-27-2011, 08:43 PM
What? You don't want Albert Pujols, Ryan Braun and Jose Bautista too?

Can I have Tampa's or Philadelphia's pitching staff too? :D

texasdave
09-27-2011, 08:44 PM
Can I have Tampa's or Philadelphia's pitching staff too? :D

Justin Verlander too. If we are dreaming, dream big.

Vottomatic
09-27-2011, 08:53 PM
i would take cj wilson he is a very good lefty and did well in last years playoffs but the reds dont have the money for him.

Bingo! Great minds think alike. He's the one guy I'd take. He made $7M last season and is now a free agent.

A former lefty successful reliever, he was converted into a solid starter, postin a 31-15 record the last 2 seasons, with e.r.a.'s of 3.35 ('10) and 2.94 ('11). He gave up far less hits than innings pitched in both seasons, while pitching over 200 innings, and hitters hitting .234 or less against him.

He will command alot. Red Sox probably throw alot of money at him. But I'd love to have him.

The DARK
09-27-2011, 08:58 PM
In this market, with our young talent, you have to be thinking trade. To sign one of the more talented guys, you'd have to outbid a hungry Yankees team with money to burn after last season. Maybe we take a Willis-esque flier on a guy like Kazmir.

Here's how we should view our rotation for next year:

1. Cueto- #2 starter
2. Leake- #3 starter
3. Bailey- #4 starter with flashes of #2 and #3, high injury risk.
4. Arroyo- #4 starter likely, potential drop-off
5. Volquez/Wood- unreliable #5 starters, both with potential to flop or provide up to #3 starter production
A. Chapman- Should be expected in Louisville to facilitate transition to starter; if he reaches this season, #5 starter quality should be expected.
B. Lecure- Longman and backup.

It's not the worst rotation in the league, but it sure could use an upgrade. I'd look to trade for Romero of the Blue Jays or one of the Tampa Bay rotation (Shields should still be a #1 target). Otherwise, expect a slightly below-average year for our pitching staff next time around.

Tuff Nut
09-27-2011, 09:03 PM
There isn't 1 pitcher on that list that I would give up much for..
The only thing the Reds will give up is money.......These were Free Agents. You don't trade for Free Agents.
As for ones I wouldn't mind looking at.....
As already stated..CJ; Dan Haran and Scott Kazmir could be intruiging.

redsfan1995
09-27-2011, 09:27 PM
The only thing the Reds will give up is money.......These were Free Agents. You don't trade for Free Agents.
As for ones I wouldn't mind looking at.....
As already stated..CJ; Dan Haran and Scott Kazmir could be intruiging.

i would take kazmir only for a minor league contract because he has had shoulder problems and has been HORRID since he was traded from tampa you could take a flyer on him and hope he gets his great slider from when he was with tampa.