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View Full Version : Where was the HUGE OUTCRY last year...



brm7675
09-28-2011, 02:12 PM
I don't remember reading many posts here that the Reds should dump Drew Stubbs and Bronson Arroyo at the end of last season, yet now many here want both gone.....what happened? Well lets see Bronson was diagnosed in ST with Mono that is something that doesn't go away quickly and causes fatigue in those with it. This past summer was one of the hottest on record in which Bronson took the ball every time and did his best. And yes he had a bad season, so NOW we must dump him?

As for Stubbs, who has been in pro ball all of 5 seasons with this being his second on the pro level and where were the yells for him to be let go after last season? Yes he has 200+ strike outs and his power numbers are down. What players early in their careers don't struggle?

I think both Bronson and Stubbs can have much better seasons next year and be keys to this team winning the division and allowed, can contribute for a number years down the road.

nux fan
09-28-2011, 02:18 PM
you must have clocks in your house that do not move forward, arroyo is old and stubbs got worse

brm7675
09-28-2011, 02:20 PM
you must have clocks in your house that do not move forward, arroyo is old and stubbs got worse

OMG...Bronson will be 35 next year, is a off speed pitcher and is done? Stubbs had a drop off his 2nd year which many players do.

Vottomatic
09-28-2011, 02:33 PM
Arroyo has a good track record overall. He also has a Moyer-type of arm that will probably allow him to pitch well into his 40's if he desires. Because of his track record and pitching style, I'm willing to give Arroyo the benefit of the doubt.

When it comes to position players, I go by my gut feeling. I get an impression of a guy, and unless he makes adjustments that change my mind, I pretty much stick with that impression/gut feeling.

Drew Stubbs has not impressed me at all, I'm sorry to say. Defensively, yes. He has made some plays and throws that have impressed me. Offensively......no. He looks like he's guessing at the plate. He takes alot of called strike 3's, and takes alot of down the middle strikes on top of that. Then he'll swing at one of those stupid pitches out of the strike zone. I'm just not impressed with his hitting IQ. Great hitters have a plan, have discipline, and a good eye for balls and strikes. Votto is like that. Stubbs reminds me of a Reggie Sanders-lite. Strikes out more than Sanders, but teases you with his speed and potential power. And I've seen no adjustments or improvements from Stubbs at the plate.

Could I be wrong? Certainly.

I was down on Bruce last year but was willing to see what he gave us this year. I think Bruce is streaky. He's really good for awhile, and average to below average for long stretches too. Dude needs consistency and needs to get smart as to how he is being pitched. Hard to complain about 30+ HR"s, and he's close to 100 rbi, even if his average is sub-par for me. If he became a .280 hitter with 35 HR's, 110 rbi, and came up with more clutch hits, then I'll be happy.

I was hoping Stubbs would be our future leadoff man. He sucks at leadoff and sucks everywhere else in the lineup. I'd trade Stubbs while he still has value, and still have people like you salivating over his potential. In a few years, he will be written off as a coulda been.

brm7675
09-28-2011, 02:38 PM
I agree with Stubbs, but given his limited experience do you not think he will learn? Now if his numbers stay similar next season with no sign of any improvement then I will begin to wonder if he can handle this game, but hitting a baseball on the major league level were even the "greats" hit in the mid .300's, I willing to give this kid some time to "learn the art of hitting" before writing him off. If the Reds had a much better option available I might be open to going that route, but right now, unless something happens in the offseason...we don't.

nux fan
09-28-2011, 03:04 PM
heisey is way better thanstubbs for an outfield positon, give it up already with stubbs are you his next of kin

IWasBornInCincy
09-28-2011, 03:06 PM
Where was the Outcry? They made the playoffs one time in 16 seasons. Are you so stupid you dont realize that on blind luck alone...every team is bound to win every now and then? Jesus Christ, all you do is make excuses.

You are impressed with a 1 out of 16 success rate. God, that is pathetic.

brm7675
09-28-2011, 03:23 PM
heisey is way better thanstubbs for an outfield positon, give it up already with stubbs are you his next of kin

How do you know he is better? Is his numbers this year better then Stubbs numbers last year?

brm7675
09-28-2011, 03:29 PM
Where was the Outcry? They made the playoffs one time in 16 seasons. Are you so stupid you dont realize that on blind luck alone...every team is bound to win every now and then? Jesus Christ, all you do is make excuses.

You are impressed with a 1 out of 16 success rate. God, that is pathetic.

Really, please remind me the last time these teams made the playoffs:

Since 1990 lets say, how many playoff appearnces have these teams made:

Pirates
Nationals
Royals
Astros
Seattle
Cubs
Rangers
Rockies
A's
O's

There are 10 teams right there that at most may have 2 playoff appearances in the last 20+ years. With no salary cap and teams having limited payrolls MLB is not like the NFL where teams make the playoffs more often. Given the ownership group the Reds had until Bob took over, I am not surprised the Reds have struggled, when ownerships objective is to turn a profit over winning, you get that.

IWasBornInCincy
09-28-2011, 03:47 PM
Really, please remind me the last time these teams made the playoffs:

Since 1990 lets say, how many playoff appearnces have these teams made:

Pirates
Nationals
Royals
Astros - 6 - 1 WS and around 20 playoff wins
Seattle - 4 - Won countless playoff games
Cubs - 4 - Won countless playoff games
Rangers - 5 - Won countless playoff games and made a WS
Rockies - 3 - Won many playoff games and made a WS
A's - 1 - Made ALCS and have won 4 playoff games

O's

There are 10 teams right there that at most may have 2 playoff appearances in the last 20+ years. With no salary cap and teams having limited payrolls MLB is not like the NFL where teams make the playoffs more often. Given the ownership group the Reds had until Bob took over, I am not surprised the Reds have struggled, when ownerships objective is to turn a profit over winning, you get that.

IWasBornInCincy
09-28-2011, 03:49 PM
YOu dont know what you are talkig about, obviously


IN THE LAST 16 YEARS, THE ONLY TEAMS IN BASEBALL NOT TO WIN A PLAYOFF GAME ARE THE REDS, ROYALS, NATIONALS and PIRATES


Misery loves company

Ohayou
09-28-2011, 03:52 PM
You two need to learn to multiquote.

IWasBornInCincy
09-28-2011, 03:53 PM
There ya go. I own some moron, and the only reply tot he post is critiquing the way I post the reply. haha, so stupid.

Ohayou
09-28-2011, 03:55 PM
There ya go. I own some moron, and the only reply tot he post is critiquing the way I post the reply. haha, so stupid.

Too bad you replied to the wrong person. :laugh:

Red Raindog
09-28-2011, 04:34 PM
I agree with Stubbs, but given his limited experience do you not think he will learn? Now if his numbers stay similar next season with no sign of any improvement then I will begin to wonder if he can handle this game, but hitting a baseball on the major league level were even the "greats" hit in the mid .300's, I willing to give this kid some time to "learn the art of hitting" before writing him off. If the Reds had a much better option available I might be open to going that route, but right now, unless something happens in the offseason...we don't.

If I had seen a small sign that he was learning I might be more patient with him but it is either on him or on the coaching --- I lean to blaming him since he can't ignore the numbers he put up and I saw no adjustments made even with 2 strikes.

nux fan
09-28-2011, 04:34 PM
I dont care about 2010
heisey destroyed stubbs this year, I wish you could go back to 2010 since that is apogee of your life, face todays facts
third place
wrecked rolen
fanning stubbs

texasdave
09-28-2011, 04:35 PM
How do you know he is better? Is his numbers this year better then Stubbs numbers last year?

Yes.

brm7675
09-28-2011, 04:35 PM
I dont care about 2010
heisey destroyed stubbs this year, I wish you could go back to 2010 since that is apogee of your life, face todays facts
third place
wrecked rolen
fanning stubbs

So you don't think Stubbs can return to the numbers he posted in 2010?

nux fan
09-28-2011, 04:37 PM
for the fifttieth time, no he is regressing, regressing that means getting worse, he had his shot

lets see if heisey can do better

that is the eightieth time I have told you my feelings, look at this years numbers, how difficult is this
this years numbers!@!!

brm7675
09-28-2011, 04:39 PM
If I had seen a small sign that he was learning I might be more patient with him but it is either on him or on the coaching --- I lean to blaming him since he can't ignore the numbers he put up and I saw no adjustments made even with 2 strikes.

You are assuming the coaching staff wanted him to adjust? We have no idea what Jacoby and Dusty asked of Stubbs this year. They may feel his swing and approach are more to the side of Dunn/Kingman and such and just needs to work on his eye at the plate which can take time. If the team doesn't want him to be a slap/contact hitter but a free swinger, how is that Stubbs fault? Now if they have worked with him and he refuses to adjust, then we have a problem, but I doubt that is it because if so I think he would have been sent down or not played as much.

texasdave
09-28-2011, 04:40 PM
If I had seen a small sign that he was learning I might be more patient with him but it is either on him or on the coaching --- I lean to blaming him since he can't ignore the numbers he put up and I saw no adjustments made even with 2 strikes.

There were serious questions about his ability to make contact coming out of college, all the way through the minors and now in his brief major league tenure. At what point do we stop blaming hitting coaches and start blaming the player?

brm7675
09-28-2011, 04:41 PM
Outside the A's, I bet if you look all those other teams had larger payrolls then the Reds did and probably better ownership. Remember it was never the objective of the Reds ownership after Marge to win, but to make money. Not until Bob bought out the ownership group did winning and developing talent and such matter. It's tough to win when 1 hand is tied behind your back by ownership don't you think?

brm7675
09-28-2011, 04:42 PM
There were serious questions about his ability to make contact coming out of college, all the way through the minors and now in his brief major league tenure. At what point do we stop blaming hitting coaches and start blaming the player?

After say at least 2-3 consecutive seasons of non growth. Again where was the outrage on Stubbs at the end of last season? I don't remember people here screaming to replace Stubbs after he posted the numbers he did last year.

texasdave
09-28-2011, 04:45 PM
After say at least 2-3 consecutive seasons of non growth. Again where was the outrage on Stubbs at the end of last season? I don't remember people here screaming to replace Stubbs after he posted the numbers he did last year.

Well there's one year. You're halfway home.

brm7675
09-28-2011, 04:50 PM
Well there's one year. You're halfway home.

Sorta, right now he has had 1 good season and 1 bad season, lets see how he does after the next couple. If he can learn just to bunt he can add at least .30-.40 points to his batting average and really increase his obp, but the question is...is that what the Reds want him to do?

nux fan
09-28-2011, 04:55 PM
yeah lets sit a guy with 18hrs in half a year to play your hero who strikes out more than dave kingman and adds no power

do you root for the brewers?

Vottomatic
09-28-2011, 05:15 PM
yeah lets sit a guy with 18hrs in half a year to play your hero who strikes out more than dave kingman and adds no power

do you root for the brewers?

Yeah, I don't know how a team doesn't give a guy who hit 18 HR's in 276 at-bats a chance to play everyday. He has 26 career homers in 470 at-bats. And 71 rbi to go with it. And a .254 batting average.

In just under 1300 at-bats, Stubbs has only 45 HR's and a career .252 batting average.

Trade Stubbs, make Heisey the everyday CFer, platoon Alonso and Sappelt in LF.

brm7675
09-28-2011, 05:18 PM
yeah lets sit a guy with 18hrs in half a year to play your hero who strikes out more than dave kingman and adds no power

do you root for the brewers?

Okay so you play Hesiey a full season, he will probably hit maybe 25-30 HR's which is what Stubbs did last year. Or are you thinking Hesiey is a 35+ a year Home run guy even though he struggles against left handed pitchers?

brm7675
09-28-2011, 05:19 PM
Yeah, I don't know how a team doesn't give a guy who hit 18 HR's in 276 at-bats a chance to play everyday. He has 26 career homers in 470 at-bats. And 71 rbi to go with it. And a .254 batting average.

In just under 1300 at-bats, Stubbs has only 45 HR's and a career .252 batting average.

Trade Stubbs, make Heisey the everyday CFer, platoon Alonso and Sappelt in LF.

How about trade Yonder with say either Devin or our other minor league catcher, put Heisey in LF and Stubbs in CF.

Stray
09-28-2011, 05:27 PM
Heisey would give you more power than Stubbs in an everyday role. I don't think he'd strike out 200+ times, but he'd strike out a lot. It's a big decision that is going to need to be made.

If we are going with Alonso in LF next year I would be shocked if Stubbs isn't our CF. Heisey is fast, but he doesn't have Stubbs' range. I'm pretty sure we'd protect Alonso in LF with our best defensive CF. If Alonso isn't in LF then Heisey is the obvious best option in LF unless they trade Stubbs where it would be Heisey/Sappelt LF/CF.

I'm curious if they weren't trying to change some things with Stubbs this year...like swing mechanics or his approach. If they were and it just didn't work, that could explain his regression. If not, then Walt would likely look to move him or even start him in AAA next year.

I'll stand by my stance from a couple of months ago. If we are getting production from SS, 3B, and LF next year Stubbs hitting 8th in our lineup will be OK.

texasdave
09-28-2011, 05:36 PM
What I don't get is this prevailing opinion that Drew Stubbs is an elite defender. The numbers don't back that up. And listening to Marty and Brantley I get that same feeling that he is not.

His UZR numbers show him to be a below-average center fielder. I guess you can dismiss them with a wave of your hand if you like. But here are the combined numbers from Stubbs two full seasons in the NL.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=cf&stats=fld&lg=nl&qual=y&type=1&season=2011&month=0&season1=2010&ind=0

IMO, Stubbs is a physically gifted athlete with about a 30% chance of turning that potential into reality.

nux fan
09-28-2011, 05:42 PM
dont confuse brm with facts, he would rather write opinions

brm7675
09-28-2011, 05:50 PM
What I don't get is this prevailing opinion that Drew Stubbs is an elite defender. The numbers don't back that up. And listening to Marty and Brantley I get that same feeling that he is not.

His UZR numbers show him to be a below-average center fielder. I guess you can dismiss them with a wave of your hand if you like. But here are the combined numbers from Stubbs two full seasons in the NL.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=cf&stats=fld&lg=nl&qual=y&type=1&season=2011&month=0&season1=2010&ind=0

IMO, Stubbs is a physically gifted athlete with about a 30% chance of turning that potential into reality.

There is no question Stubbs has a way to go to maximize his talent and it's on him to do that in the upcoming offseason and next year. Stubbs could turn out to be the next Paul Householder or could be another Alfanso Soriano who when good was very good. We will just have to wait and see.

brm7675
09-28-2011, 05:57 PM
dont confuse brm with facts, he would rather write opinions

Well since we don't have all the facts available, all you can post is opinion, that is unless you have access to Dusty and the coaches we don't?

Ohayou
09-28-2011, 06:19 PM
This topic seems like a good indication of why The Old Red Guard and The Sun Deck are kept separate from each other. :thumbup:

texasdave
09-28-2011, 06:20 PM
This topic seems like a good indication of why The Old Red Guard and The Sun Deck are kept separate from each other. :thumbup:

You got to keep them separated. :thumbup:

Red Raindog
09-28-2011, 06:22 PM
You are assuming the coaching staff wanted him to adjust? We have no idea what Jacoby and Dusty asked of Stubbs this year. They may feel his swing and approach are more to the side of Dunn/Kingman and such and just needs to work on his eye at the plate which can take time. If the team doesn't want him to be a slap/contact hitter but a free swinger, how is that Stubbs fault? Now if they have worked with him and he refuses to adjust, then we have a problem, but I doubt that is it because if so I think he would have been sent down or not played as much.

If you are right then it is the coaching -- but if they think they are developing a Dunn/Kingman type player -- remember this was your idea -- why do you bat that type of hitter in the 1 or 2 hole?

I think the problem is both -- LACK of coaching & LACK of plate awareness

Red Raindog
09-28-2011, 06:26 PM
There were serious questions about his ability to make contact coming out of college, all the way through the minors and now in his brief major league tenure. At what point do we stop blaming hitting coaches and start blaming the player?

If that was a judgement of his abilities by the scouting staff -- he is meeting their expectations & it is shame of the staff for trying to make him what he is not --- but only the most brain dead hitters make no adjustment with 2 strikes -- like I see with Stubbs -- I hate being so down on him but I'm tired of watching him hit.

Red Raindog
09-28-2011, 06:29 PM
Okay so you play Hesiey a full season, he will probably hit maybe 25-30 HR's which is what Stubbs did last year. Or are you thinking Hesiey is a 35+ a year Home run guy even though he struggles against left handed pitchers?

I don't know what Heisey is -- which is caused by his spotty playing time -- but you say that Stubbs should be given a chance to learn to bunt -- why not say -- give Heisey a chance to learn lefties?

brm7675
09-28-2011, 06:30 PM
If you are right then it is the coaching -- but if they think they are developing a Dunn/Kingman type player -- remember this was your idea -- why do you bat that type of hitter in the 1 or 2 hole?

I think the problem is both -- LACK of coaching & LACK of plate awareness

I agree, I never could understand why you would put a young inexperienced free swinger in the leadoff slot at all. Stubbs should have been in the 7/8 slot all season. Also as with Heisey I would have liked to seen the Reds put Stubbs in when it was to his advantage with whom was pitching. A platoon of him and Heisey might have been the way to go, and I am more to put the blame on coaching over player at this point.

smixsell
09-28-2011, 06:32 PM
I don't remember reading many posts here that the Reds should dump Drew Stubbs and Bronson Arroyo at the end of last season, yet now many here want both gone.....what happened? Well lets see Bronson was diagnosed in ST with Mono that is something that doesn't go away quickly and causes fatigue in those with it. This past summer was one of the hottest on record in which Bronson took the ball every time and did his best. And yes he had a bad season, so NOW we must dump him?

As for Stubbs, who has been in pro ball all of 5 seasons with this being his second on the pro level and where were the yells for him to be let go after last season? Yes he has 200+ strike outs and his power numbers are down. What players early in their careers don't struggle?

I think both Bronson and Stubbs can have much better seasons next year and be keys to this team winning the division and allowed, can contribute for a number years down the road.

I'm with you mate. Bronson will LIKELY have a strong bounceback year next year and Stubbs WILL be a star someday, sooner rather than later if he gets some decent coaching. People on here generally have no idea how to evaluate players. Just like folks were saying after last season that Leake is a long man or 5th starter because he doesn't throw hard and doesn't strike many out. Simply moronic sometimes.

Red Raindog
09-28-2011, 06:37 PM
I agree, I never could understand why you would put a young inexperienced free swinger in the leadoff slot at all. Stubbs should have been in the 7/8 slot all season. Also as with Heisey I would have liked to seen the Reds put Stubbs in when it was to his advantage with whom was pitching. A platoon of him and Heisey might have been the way to go, and I am more to put the blame on coaching over player at this point.

OK --- but Heisey was only given 61 AB against lefties this year -- I don't call that a fair trial.

brm7675
09-28-2011, 06:42 PM
OK --- but Heisey was only given 61 AB against lefties this year -- I don't call that a fair trial.

Your right, Heisey not Gomes should have seen more playing time. I would use Heisey as a roamer, one day in CF, one day in LF and so on.