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View Full Version : Is 2012 the last year we're stuck with Bakersfield?



Blitz Dorsey
09-28-2011, 09:51 PM
What a joke of a high-A affiliate. I think high school teams draw better.

Hopefully 2012 will be the final year the Reds are affiliated with the Bakersfield Blaze. What are the chances of that happening? Where are some possible landing spots? And is there a chance the Carolina Mudcats could move to high-A and reunite with the Reds?

It must be odd for players to get "promoted" from the Dayton Dragons to the Bakersfield Blaze. Talk about one end of the spectrum to the other in terms of fan support/atmosphere.

cinreds21
09-28-2011, 10:23 PM
There is a chance, but I don't think it'll happen.

redsof72
09-29-2011, 11:30 AM
One of the many reasons why winning IS important in the minor leagues. The teams that win usually get the best developmental situations. Not always...and there are exceptions due to other factors, but when the Reds sit down with potential high-A owners after the 2012 season, the owner is going to want assurances that the team will be competitive.

Nothing against Bakersfield, but geographically, it does not fit well for the Reds. You have an injury to your Double-A catcher on a Monday night, you need to be able to get another catcher in there in time for the Tuesday game. That is one of many factors that go into fitting with an affiliate.

Reds will be trying to hold onto their affiliation in Pensacola and looking for a Carolina League club, I would expect, after the 2012 season.

If Dayton and Billings go out and win again in 2012, it would make it a lot easier to sell to Steve Bryant in Carolina, but based on what he saw this season in Zebulon, they may be starting out behind the eight ball.

JaxRed
09-29-2011, 11:41 AM
Here's your glimmer of hope. For 12 years the Braves and the Myrtle Beach Pelicans had an agreement. But then the Pelicans owner became part owner of the Rangers. And in 2010, the Pelicans dropped the Braves and the Pelicans went with Rangers.

Well, Reds had done such a crappy job fielding a High A team, that Lynchburg was WAY happier to dump us and go with Braves.... That's part of how we ended up in Bakersfield.

But in the meantime, Nolan Ryan forced the Pelicans owner out of the Rangers situation, so it would stand to reason that the Pelicans would go back to the Braves. Except they can't.... The Braves (not knowing this would happen), signed a 4 year deal with Lynchburg.

So it's very likely that Pelicans will want to dump Rangers.... and we are available!!!!

muddie
09-29-2011, 11:45 AM
And is there a chance the Carolina Mudcats could move to high-A and reunite with the Reds?

Just to clarify, the Carolina Mudcats are High A next year, done deal.

However, I agree with cinreds21, I don't believe Cincy will be back here for the reasons stated by redsof72. Good points redsof72, I agree entirely. Had the AA team been more competitive I would have a lot better feeling about 2012.

One scenerio that is probably way too off the chart to consider...

Kinston may come up with an ownership group given another year that could bring the Reds to the Carolina League. I know the Reds want to be in this league, bad. Kinston and Cincy would say yes to each other now! The playing surface in Kinston is excellent. Of course, this would mean someone else would have to leave or enter the CL with Kinston in 2012 to keep the scheduling in tact. Just thinking out loud...

redsof72
09-29-2011, 12:10 PM
You look at the Carolina League, and you see it is going to be difficult for the Reds to get in. There just are not going to be many vacancies.

Minor League Baseball has wanted to move two California League franchises into the Carolina League but they have not had facilities to go into. Now they have at least one (Kinston). They need one more to pull it off.

redsof72
09-29-2011, 12:17 PM
I will say one thing for the Reds, Muddie. They had a huge talent void at your level this season but they at least tried to go out and get some help. Cook was a guy they had to expect more from. Campbell, Berry, all those pitchers, even Rhinehart, I think, was probably in the Gomes deal just to help Carolina. You were there and saw these guys but it looks like they at least made an effort.

That was a big difference from past seasons, when they would have moved half the team from Bakersfield up, guys who had no business moving up, and would have struggled worse in Carolina than the guys you ended up with.

JaxRed
09-29-2011, 12:20 PM
Oooh it's worse than I thought.. The Rangers signed a 4 year deal also. So no Pelicans for us. Here are the Non Cal League High A teams

Frederick Keys Orioles 2014
Kinston Indians Indians 2012
Lynchburg Hillcats Braves 2014
Myrtle Beach Pelicans Rangers 2014
Potomac Nationals Nationals 2012
Salem Red Sox Red Sox N/A (Red Sox own team)
Wilmington Blue Rocks Royals 2012
Winston-Salem Dash White Sox 2014

Bradenton Marauders Pirates N/A (Pirates own team)
Brevard County Brewers 2012
Charlotte Stone Crabs Rays N/A (Rays own team)
Clearwater Threshers Phillies N/A (Phillies own team)
Daytona Cubs Cubs 2012
Dunedin Blue Jays Blue Jays N/A (Blue Jays own team)
Fort Myers Miracle Twins 2012
Jupiter Hammerheads Marlins N/A (Marlins own team)
Lakeland Flying Tigers Tigers N/A (Tigers own team)
Palm Beach Cardinals Cardinals N/A (Cardinals own team)
St. Lucie Mets Mets N/A (Mets own team)
Tampa Yankees Yankees N/A (Yankees own team)


So only teams available in 2012 are

Carolina
Kinston (now Carolina) Indians probably doesn't want us
Potomac Likely to stick with Nationals
Wilmington -Royals

Florida
Daytona - Cubs (unlikely to switch)
Brevard County - Brewers - Heard some rumors about team going to Kissimmee
Ft Meyers - Twins.

It doesn't look good folks...

redsof72
09-29-2011, 12:28 PM
Wow. Twins are not going anywhere. That is their spring training site. If I am the Reds, I am looking for an ownership group that would buy a Florida State League franchise.

muddie
09-29-2011, 01:38 PM
I will say one thing for the Reds, Muddie. They had a huge talent void at your level this season but they at least tried to go out and get some help. Cook was a guy they had to expect more from. Campbell, Berry, all those pitchers, even Rhinehart, I think, was probably in the Gomes deal just to help Carolina. You were there and saw these guys but it looks like they at least made an effort.

That was a big difference from past seasons, when they would have moved half the team from Bakersfield up, guys who had no business moving up, and would have struggled worse in Carolina than the guys you ended up with.

Pitching is what cost the Mudcats this year. Without checking again I think they finished at 5.14 team ERA. I enjoyed having the Reds here. I'm confident, had we stayed in the SL the Reds would have been here a while.

muddie
09-29-2011, 01:39 PM
Potomac Likely to stick with Nationals

Agreed. Potomac will have a brand new park in 2013.

crazybob60
09-29-2011, 04:38 PM
Maybe I missed it being mentioned above, but is there a reason why the Reds High A affiliate is so far away from any of the rest of the minor league affiliates and the Reds geographically? (well with the exception of Billings). Was it done unintentionally just to possibly spread around the 'wealth' for the Reds fanbase?

redsof72
09-29-2011, 05:13 PM
Imagine a game of musical chairs and you are the last one standing and there is one chair left.

muddie
09-29-2011, 05:27 PM
Maybe I missed it being mentioned above, but is there a reason why the Reds High A affiliate is so far away from any of the rest of the minor league affiliates and the Reds geographically? (well with the exception of Billings). Was it done unintentionally just to possibly spread around the 'wealth' for the Reds fanbase?


The reason that Cincy is in Bakersfield is that nobody else wanted them that had an expired MLB working agreement. It has nothing to do with sharing the wealth at all. The 'musical chairs' example is perfect.

Blitz Dorsey
09-29-2011, 07:08 PM
Sounds like Wilmington is our best bet. There has to be more Reds fans in that neck of the woods than Royals fans.

Tony Cloninger
10-01-2011, 01:30 PM
The reason that Cincy is in Bakersfield is that nobody else wanted them that had an expired MLB working agreement. It has nothing to do with sharing the wealth at all. The 'musical chairs' example is perfect.

What did this org do to make affiliates mad at them and not want them?

dougdirt
10-01-2011, 01:51 PM
What did this org do to make affiliates mad at them and not want them?

It wasn't about being mad at them, it was about Dayton being really bad in 2010 (53-85) and 2009 (59-80). If you knew that was the team you would be getting, would you be lining up to sign them up knowing that you have to sell tickets to make money? From a business perspective, I wouldn't. These minor league franchises are in the business of making money. A lot of these towns want to see the team win. They don't care about the development of the players like we do. They are Bakersfield fans, not Reds fans (or whatever city).

Blitz Dorsey
10-03-2011, 09:37 AM
It wasn't about being mad at them, it was about Dayton being really bad in 2010 (53-85) and 2009 (59-80). If you knew that was the team you would be getting, would you be lining up to sign them up knowing that you have to sell tickets to make money? From a business perspective, I wouldn't. These minor league franchises are in the business of making money. A lot of these towns want to see the team win. They don't care about the development of the players like we do. They are Bakersfield fans, not Reds fans (or whatever city).

What's interesting from a sports-business perspective is that it's been proven time and time again that "win-loss" record is not nearly as important as "ballpark experience" in terms of attendance at minor league baseball games. Does having a winning team help? Yes, but it's been proven it has a very-negligible effect. Exciting, young prospects are more-important than winning on the attendance scale ... and then No. 1 by far is ballpark experience. The Dayton Dragons could write the handbook on this theory, but it applies to every team across the nation. Some just do it much better than others. And yes, some places of the country (like Dayton, OH) are just better baseball towns than others (like Bakersfield, CA). But there have been years the Dragons have been dreadful on the field, but they still packed the place every night because it was a fun place to take the fam.

So, when a minor league baseball owner/operator blames the MLB club for his team not drawing well, he should look in the mirror. He needs to do more fan-friendly things at the park. This is not the Major Leagues where all that really matters is wins and losses. The minor leagues are all about developing players and allowing the fans to have a great time while at the game. Wins and losses are nothing more than gravy at the MiLB level. (But I do love me some gravy.)

Cooper
10-08-2011, 11:03 AM
I know this will never happen but i wish Dayton was a double AA team or a AAA team. They certainly have the fan base to support it and it would be a nice incentive for guys that move up the chain to play in front a larger fan base.

Heck, there are times when guys are interviewed about playing in Dayton and they'll say things like "gettting a promotion was like a demotion after playing in Dayton". Just fits in my schema better to have things progress in a natural order, but life isn't always like that.

The DARK
10-08-2011, 05:20 PM
I know this will never happen but i wish Dayton was a double AA team or a AAA team. They certainly have the fan base to support it and it would be a nice incentive for guys that move up the chain to play in front a larger fan base.

Heck, there are times when guys are interviewed about playing in Dayton and they'll say things like "gettting a promotion was like a demotion after playing in Dayton". Just fits in my schema better to have things progress in a natural order, but life isn't always like that.

Are there any rules against silently operating a team like that? We could regularly promote players straight to Bakersfield from Billings and then demote them to Dayton, while simultaneously putting all of our coaching talent in Dayton.

Also, is there any chance that Bakersfield will fold on it's own? They may have a contract, but paying rent on a stadium and running a minor league team out with an attendance of 300 doesn't seem like any way to make a profit.

camisadelgolf
10-08-2011, 05:45 PM
Are there any rules against silently operating a team like that? We could regularly promote players straight to Bakersfield from Billings and then demote them to Dayton, while simultaneously putting all of our coaching talent in Dayton.

Also, is there any chance that Bakersfield will fold on it's own? They may have a contract, but paying rent on a stadium and running a minor league team out with an attendance of 300 doesn't seem like any way to make a profit.
In A-ball, no more than two players can have more than five years of minor-league service time. In rookie leagues (e.g. Billings), there are various limits on the ages of players.

muddie
10-08-2011, 09:14 PM
Are there any rules against silently operating a team like that? We could regularly promote players straight to Bakersfield from Billings and then demote them to Dayton, while simultaneously putting all of our coaching talent in Dayton.

Also, is there any chance that Bakersfield will fold on it's own? They may have a contract, but paying rent on a stadium and running a minor league team out with an attendance of 300 doesn't seem like any way to make a profit.

It is eye opening to look at the league attendance in the California League and see how poorly attended Bakersfield games were this year. They finished last in the league in attendance, a distant last I might add. The ninth place attendance in the league was High Desert with a total season attendance of 119,028 and an average per game attendance of 1725. Bakersfield had a total season attendance of 40,056. The average game attendance was 572...pathetic.

Kinston, N.C. lost their team in the Carolina League because attendance was so low year in and year out and the owners got tired of picking up the tab each year. They had a total season attendance of 112,181 this year and a per game average of 1780 which dwarfs the attendance numbers for Bakersfield. I don't know how Bakersfield does it.

Danny Serafini
10-09-2011, 12:21 AM
Are there any rules against silently operating a team like that? We could regularly promote players straight to Bakersfield from Billings and then demote them to Dayton, while simultaneously putting all of our coaching talent in Dayton.

I suppose you could, but it would be pointless because the level of competition would be wrong. It's not just about Dayton and Bakersfield, it's about the rest of both leagues. You'd be hanging out your less developed guys to dry having them over their head in a high A league, and sticking your better players against inferior competition not learning anything in a low A league. We're just stuck with Bakersfield, we have to deal with it.