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View Full Version : Francona expected to leave Red Sox, per Rosenthal



marcshoe
09-30-2011, 02:01 AM
Francona, Red Sox, expected to part (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/manager-terry-francona-expected-to-part-ways-with-red-sox-092911)

From the article, I'm not sure if this is a done deal. From the outside looking in he looks like someone I'd like to see manage the Reds. The point's moot anyway.

MikeThierry
09-30-2011, 02:04 AM
Jesus... that is just a silly move if that is true. He is one of the best managers in the game. Who ever gets him will get a really good baseball man.

RedsManRick
09-30-2011, 02:07 AM
There are conflicting reports. The most believable one I've seen says he's not being fired. Rather, he's tired of dealing with all the crap and will ask them not to pick up his 2012 & 2013 options.

The Operator
09-30-2011, 02:07 AM
I'd take him as The Reds skipper in a heart beat. Wow.

Reds/Flyers Fan
09-30-2011, 03:00 AM
"We're happy with what we have."

Without Dusty, who'd plug Paul Yawnish into the lineup every other day?

remdog
09-30-2011, 03:07 AM
I'd take him as The Reds skipper in a heart beat. Wow.

Ditto

Rem

reds44
09-30-2011, 03:20 AM
"We're happy with what we have."

Without Dusty, who'd plug Paul Yawnish into the lineup every other day?
Like 75% of this board before this season.

mth123
09-30-2011, 04:49 AM
"We're happy with what we have."

Without Dusty, who'd plug Paul Yawnish into the lineup every other day?

Don't blame Dusty. Janish was the best SS on tje roster. That was a GM failing.

Tom Servo
09-30-2011, 06:38 AM
Wow, I thought Francona was firmly entrenched in Boston for years to come.

757690
09-30-2011, 09:07 AM
Reminds me of when the Reds fired Sparky. Complete over-reaction to not winning the division, although this one does include an epic collapse.

I could see the Cubs and Cards battling after him.

Benihana
09-30-2011, 09:11 AM
This is in line with what I've heard as well. He did have a storied career as a utility infielder in Cincinnati...

I'd take him and Youk in 2013.

marcshoe
09-30-2011, 09:17 AM
This is in line with what I've heard as well. He did have a storied career as a utility infielder in Cincinnati...

I'd take him and Youk in 2013.

Didn't the Reds pick him up because he was friends with Rose, or have I been eating too much chili before going to bed again? Or both, maybe.

RFS62
09-30-2011, 09:55 AM
Yeah, Francona is the worst pitcher I've ever seen down the stretch..... no, wait.

Francona didn't choke. His pitching did.

Unassisted
09-30-2011, 09:58 AM
If he's out of there, I hope Walt offers him a special assistant gig. It would be terrific for the Reds to have a manager-in-waiting on the payroll that we could actually clamor to have as the manager.

RANDY IN INDY
09-30-2011, 10:19 AM
Gonna cost a lot.

RFS62
09-30-2011, 10:22 AM
If he's out of there, I hope Walt offers him a special assistant gig. It would be terrific for the Reds to have a manager-in-waiting on the payroll that we could actually clamor to have as the manager.


I can't see that happening. Francona doesn't need to wait, he'll be snapped up at a much higher salary than we'll ever pay.

Cooper
09-30-2011, 10:51 AM
"Never make a decision right after the season." -Lorne Michaels

Your mind ain't right and often times it's an overreaction based on feeling. Not only is the individual tired, but so is the organization as a whole.

I tend to think good organizations wait and let things settle (feelings). So do smart people.

If this is true- Bret Favre is the dumbest person in america.

Sea Ray
09-30-2011, 10:53 AM
Reminds me of when the Reds fired Sparky. Complete over-reaction to not winning the division, although this one does include an epic collapse.

I could see the Cubs and Cards battling after him.

Except the Red Sox GM is quoted as saying "nobody blames Francona"

Yeah right

Redsfan320
09-30-2011, 11:08 AM
I'd love to have him. Enough that I would be willing to see a bit of money taken from player acquisitions to get him.

320

Sea Ray
09-30-2011, 12:13 PM
I think we have to be awfully careful about building up guys like Francona and Torre who have won with $150-200mill payrolls. Managing the Reds would be a totally different endeavor

MrCinatit
09-30-2011, 12:30 PM
Yeah, Francona is the worst pitcher I've ever seen down the stretch..... no, wait.

Francona didn't choke. His pitching did.



Francona DID pitch one inning while he was with the Brewers in '89. Perhaps he should have stepped up....

RedsBaron
09-30-2011, 12:38 PM
While Francona obviously would not make the HOF as a manager if 2011 was the last year he ever manages, he is on the short list of managers who have won mulitiple World Series, most of whom are in or will make the HOF:
John McGraw
Frank Chance
Connie Mack
Bill Carrigan
Miller Huggins
Bucky Harris
Joe McCarthy
Billy Southworth
Casey Stengel
Walter Alston
Ralph Houk
Dick Williams
Sparky Anderson
Tommy Lasorda
Tom Kelly
Cito Gaston
Joe Torre
Tony LaRussa
Terry Francona

Carrigan, Kelly, Gaston and Houk are not likely to ever go into the HOF, while Torre and LaRussa are certain to go in. The rest of the guys are in the HOF.

blumj
09-30-2011, 01:22 PM
Francona DID pitch one inning while he was with the Brewers in '89. Perhaps he should have stepped up....
Hey, he's also one of very few LH throwers to ever play 3B, maybe he should have filled in there when Youkilis got hurt, too.

Blitz Dorsey
09-30-2011, 01:23 PM
I blame Bill James. How could he allow "his team" to sign Carl Crawford at such an exorbitant amount? Right on the heels of the horrible contract given to Lackey? If Bill James isn't to blame, then definitely wonderboy Theo is. You would think he was GM'ing the Cubs with all the awful contracts he's been handing out. At least they got one right with A.Gonzalez, but other than that Epstein has made one bad decision after another.

IslandRed
09-30-2011, 02:08 PM
I completely agree that the collapse was not Francona's fault.

At the same time, just because a manager isn't part of the problem doesn't mean he is not tasked with finding solutions. It doesn't take a great manager to autopilot a winning, talent-laden team. Managing is about managing people as much or more as it is strategy, and it's when times get tough that managers earn their money. Francona's done that before, but this time, the Red Sox just went into shellshock and he looked powerless to rouse them from it. Maybe it's the right time to move on, for both sides' sake.

If it wasn't posted elsewhere, this was the conclusion of Bill Simmons' article about watching the two games simultaneously:


And so it went for the 2011 Red Sox, the biggest chokers of any Boston team in my lifetime. At least the '78 Sox fought back and forced a one-game playoff; these guys couldn't even do that. They disintegrated over an entire month, day after day after day. You can't even explain how brutal they were unless you followed the free fall firsthand. Once 82-51, they finished 90-72. From August 30 through September 24, they were 2-18 in games in which they scored fewer than nine runs. Their team ERA for September was 5.90. Their starters finished 4-13 for the month with a 7.03 ERA. Their best setup guy single-handedly blew four games. Their bats went mysteriously silent at the worst possible times, personified by Papi's three-foot out tonight in a situation in which it was almost impossible NOT to score. If the 2004 Red Sox distinguished themselves by everyone chipping in, the 2011 Red Sox distinguished themselves by chipping out.

Their body language grew progressively worse as the month dragged on, with their manager seeming more hopeless and desperate than anyone. They blew basic baseball plays, botched fly balls, dropped relay throws, ended games by getting caught stealing, threw meatballs, *****ed at each other, admitted to being scared … you name it, they did it. They choked away Game 162 by getting three guys thrown out on the basepaths, by blowing a 3-2 lead in the ninth, by botching a season-deciding fly ball, by letting Chris Davis, Nolan Reimold and Robert Andino beat them with two outs in the ninth. You can't say it was unbelievable, because, actually, it was totally believable. This was a mercy killing. At least that's what I will keep telling myself. The 2011 Red Sox needed to go away. And they did.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7033950/a-running-diary-game-162

blumj
09-30-2011, 03:29 PM
"Never make a decision right after the season." -Lorne Michaels

Your mind ain't right and often times it's an overreaction based on feeling. Not only is the individual tired, but so is the organization as a whole.

I tend to think good organizations wait and let things settle (feelings). So do smart people.

If this is true- Bret Favre is the dumbest person in america.

Theo Epstein just released a statement that basically amounted to: don't hold your breath waiting for any announcements.

blumj
09-30-2011, 06:42 PM
Well, so much for that, it's official, Francona's out. Wherever he ends up, his next team and their fans will be lucky to have him.


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/09/its_official_fr.html

marcshoe
09-30-2011, 06:55 PM
Well, so much for that, it's official, Francona's out. Wherever he ends up, his next team and their fans will be lucky to have him.


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/09/its_official_fr.html

I'd hate to see him end up with the Cubs. The South Side would be okay, though.

RedsManRick
09-30-2011, 09:13 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a parting handled better. The organization respected the fans ability to handle the truth and communicated quickly and clearly their decisions and its reasoning. Maybe that's easier when all sides feel the same way, but they put out a united front that left everybody looking as good as possible moving forward.

Brutus
09-30-2011, 09:21 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a parting handled better. The organization respected the fans ability to handle the truth and communicated quickly and clearly their decisions and its reasoning. Maybe that's easier when all sides feel the same way, but they put out a united front that left everybody looking as good as possible moving forward.

Can't say I disagree with you on this, but I'd rather have a good decision handled poorly than a bad decision handled properly. At the end of the day, letting Francona go is probably not a very wise move and they might wish they'd not done it. If Francona truly wanted out, then I guess the Red Sox can't be blamed. But if they had any part in forcing him out, which I'll admit I don't know for certain, I'd consider that a mistake.

blumj
09-30-2011, 09:56 PM
He took them completely off the hook for making what would have been a stupid decision by not giving them a chance to make it. It just feels so sad and unnecessary.


Pedroia:"I love the man. I wish I could have played my entire career for him. My heart's broken for him and I wish he was back. I wish him the best. I hope he gets a job in the NL for a team we don't get a chance to play, because it would be like playing against one of my own family members."

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/14764/pedroia-on-tito-my-hearts-broken-for-him

The Operator
09-30-2011, 10:12 PM
A team goes nearly a century without a championship and then "parts ways" with the guy who brings them two in four years. Mind boggling.

If he manages elsewhere, whatever team snags him is going to be very happy.

nemesis
09-30-2011, 10:47 PM
Francona just has that Cast/Walt feel to him. Obviously he has some connection to the Williams as well. I wouldnt be suprised to see him do a year on ESPN to clear his head and Be everyones everything in 2013.

RFS62
09-30-2011, 11:32 PM
He took them completely off the hook for making what would have been a stupid decision by not giving them a chance to make it. It just feels so sad and unnecessary.

Pedroia:"I love the man. I wish I could have played my entire career for him. My heart's broken for him and I wish he was back. I wish him the best. I hope he gets a job in the NL for a team we don't get a chance to play, because it would be like playing against one of my own family members."



http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/14764/pedroia-on-tito-my-hearts-broken-for-him


One more reason that Dustin is one of my favorite players of all time.

WVRed
10-01-2011, 01:50 PM
So any predictions as to who replaces Francona?

ESPN listed Tony LaDoubleDay and Joe Torre as possibilities.

The Operator
10-01-2011, 03:23 PM
So any predictions as to who replaces Francona?

ESPN listed Tony LaDoubleDay and Joe Torre as possibilities.I dunno, if TLR goes back to the AL he won't be able to look super smart by batting the pitcher 8th and pulling 12 double switches per game to where ultimately his middle reliever is batting cleanup.

mth123
10-01-2011, 06:29 PM
I've seen several rumors that Epstien may be headed to the vacant job with the Cubs. I wonder if Francona's decision not to re-up is part of a pre-arranged agreement with Theo that he'd go with him. That duo broke one curse. I could see why the Cubs would want to give it a try.

RFS62
10-01-2011, 07:09 PM
I've seen several rumors that Epstien may be headed to the vacant job with the Cubs. I wonder if Francona's decision not to re-up is part of a pre-arranged agreement with Theo that he'd go with him. That duo broke one curse. I could see why the Cubs would want to give it a try.


The Cubs are an order of magnitude more cursed than the Red Sox ever imagined being.

If those two know what's good for them, they should stay away from that team. I wouldn't be surprised if Wrigley Field was built on an ancient indian burial ground.

RANDY IN INDY
10-01-2011, 07:35 PM
I still laugh, every time I see your avatar, RFS62!

remdog
10-01-2011, 07:43 PM
I've seen several rumors that Epstien may be headed to the vacant job with the Cubs. I wonder if Francona's decision not to re-up is part of a pre-arranged agreement with Theo that he'd go with him. That duo broke one curse. I could see why the Cubs would want to give it a try.

Yeah, I saw that too and it's an interesting thought. I'd love to have Francona rather than Dusty but I'm not sure I'd want Epstien over Walt.

Rem

mth123
10-01-2011, 08:53 PM
Yeah, I saw that too and it's an interesting thought. I'd love to have Francona rather than Dusty but I'm not sure I'd want Epstien over Walt.

Rem

Man I would. Walt acts like he's still retired.

blumj
10-01-2011, 08:58 PM
If it's up to me, Theo can go, but only if he takes Lackey with him. Either stay and help clean up the mess you made or do something to help them clean it up, you build the greatest collapse ever team, you don't get to just go merrily on your way to a nice new fresh start while you're still under contract.

cincinnati chili
10-01-2011, 10:13 PM
If it's up to me, Theo can go, but only if he takes Lackey with him. Either stay and help clean up the mess you made or do something to help them clean it up, you build the greatest collapse ever team, you don't get to just go merrily on your way to a nice new fresh start while you're still under contract.

Are we really sure that Theo is the decision-maker there? I've always wondered if the really big deals for guys like Lackey and certainly Crawford/A-Gone are Lucchino's call. The Crawford deal in particular was unsabermetric of the highest order.

Oh, props to myself for this: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2317546&postcount=23

I should have had some guts and predicted that the deal would be atrocious in the first year instead of the third.

Tony Cloninger
10-01-2011, 10:14 PM
The parallels of Francona and Sparky .... (except for the firing and resigning stuff)

1977 Reds pitching collapses upon itself and no amount of offense can overcome it. (2011 Boston)

1978 Reds injuries to Morgan and Bench turn them into Derrel Thomas and Steve Swisher on offense, while the bullpen becomes a gas can after June (See Borbon, Tomlin and a seriously overworked Sarmiento)
(2010 Boston suffers many injuries ...mainly Pedroia and Kevin Youkilis)

Both had lost the ear and maybe some respect or ability to respond in the clubhouse. Rose said it in the 1978 SPORT interview about "If guys had tried a little harder and run a little harder, maybe Sparky would still be there". He basically said they needed to look in the mirror. Bench also said it but not like a hammer that Rose did while going out the door.

Now a 2 time WS winning manager is looking for a job, just like Sparky was.

blumj
10-02-2011, 12:04 AM
Are we really sure that Theo is the decision-maker there? I've always wondered if the really big deals for guys like Lackey and certainly Crawford/A-Gone are Lucchino's call. The Crawford deal in particular was unsabermetric of the highest order.

Oh, props to myself for this: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2317546&postcount=23

I should have had some guts and predicted that the deal would be atrocious in the first year instead of the third.

Really sure? No, but Lucchino does not appear to have as much involvement in baseball operations as he used to, and they've consistently given the impression for several years now that Theo reports directly to John Henry.

cincinnati chili
10-02-2011, 02:49 PM
Really sure? No, but Lucchino does not appear to have as much involvement in baseball operations as he used to, and they've consistently given the impression for several years now that Theo reports directly to John Henry.

ok. I moved from Boston in '07 and don't keep up as much as I used to. I was very queased out by the scripted statements from owner/GM/manager after the resignation... or firing . . . or whatever it was.

lollipopcurve
10-03-2011, 10:13 AM
No, but Lucchino does not appear to have as much involvement in baseball operations as he used to, and they've consistently given the impression for several years now that Theo reports directly to John Henry.

Henry is the guy with the biggest stake in the club. I'd bet he's got the last call on large investments. Stuff in the Boston Globe this past weekend suggested he had been growing discontented with Francona for a couple years.

Guy's a weird dude, too. Ghostly.

Chip R
10-03-2011, 11:12 AM
Well, so much for that, it's official, Francona's out. Wherever he ends up, his next team and their fans will be lucky to have him.


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/09/its_official_fr.html (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/09/its_official_fr.html)

It helps whan you have a $100M plus payroll year after year. Tito wasn't any great shakes when he was in Philly. All due credit he succeeded where all others have failed but that big payroll is a great asset to any manager.

blumj
10-03-2011, 03:08 PM
It helps whan you have a $100M plus payroll year after year. Tito wasn't any great shakes when he was in Philly. All due credit he succeeded where all others have failed but that big payroll is a great asset to any manager.

It's not that I think he's a great tactical manager or anything, but he always has a reason for things he does and he's willing to tell you what it is, without getting defensive about it. He's also really funny.

blumj
10-04-2011, 12:01 AM
Buster Olney:

Sources: In a field of candidates for their next manager, the Red Sox will consider Phillies coach Pete Mackanin.

http://twitter.com/#!/Buster_ESPN/status/120996049602101248

Ron Madden
10-04-2011, 04:00 AM
I think that Rays Bench Coach Dave Martinez would be a good fit in Boston but I believe he will be the next Manager of the White Sox.

RedsBaron
10-04-2011, 11:28 AM
While Francona obviously would not make the HOF as a manager if 2011 was the last year he ever manages, he is on the short list of managers who have won mulitiple World Series, most of whom are in or will make the HOF:
John McGraw
Frank Chance
Connie Mack
Bill Carrigan
Miller Huggins
Bucky Harris
Joe McCarthy
Billy Southworth
Casey Stengel
Walter Alston
Ralph Houk
Dick Williams
Sparky Anderson
Tommy Lasorda
Tom Kelly
Cito Gaston
Joe Torre
Tony LaRussa
Terry Francona

Carrigan, Kelly, Gaston and Houk are not likely to ever go into the HOF, while Torre and LaRussa are certain to go in. The rest of the guys are in the HOF.
I discovered that I left out two other managers who won at least two World Series, both of whom managed the Pirates.
Prior to winning the 1940 World Series as the Reds skipper, Bill McKechnie captured the 1925 Series as the manager of the Pirates.
Danny Murtaugh managed Pittsburgh on several occasions, and won the World Series in both 1960 and 1971.
McKechnie was voted into the Hall of Fame in 1962. In addition to the above World Championships, he also managed the Cardinals to the NL pennant in 1928 and captured a second NL title for the Reds in 1939.
Murtaugh has never made the HOF.

blumj
10-05-2011, 03:27 PM
Francona's filling in for McCarver the first 2 games of the ALCS.

George Anderson
10-05-2011, 03:29 PM
Francona's filling in for McCarver the first 2 games of the ALCS.

I have never heard Francona do a broadcast but I am sure he is an upgrade to McCarver.

Then again a turtle would be an upgrade to.

blumj
10-05-2011, 03:35 PM
I have never heard Francona do a broadcast but I am sure he is an upgrade to McCarver.

Then again a turtle would be an upgrade to.

I think he'd be good at it, he's a very entertaining speaker, but he'd probably be better if he didn't still want to manage, might make him too careful about what not to say.

signalhome
10-05-2011, 04:26 PM
I have never heard Francona do a broadcast but I am sure he is an upgrade to McCarver.

Then again a turtle would be an upgrade to.

Well-said.

cincinnati chili
10-06-2011, 12:36 AM
My take on McCarver is that he knows baseball, but his lame attempts at humor and whimsical anecdotes are so abysmal that I want to change the channel. If he would just shut up and talk baseball, I'd be fine with him. If you saw MLB Networks' 20 Greatest Games of All Time, you'd note that on multiple occasions he picked up on key things that became instrumental in the games he was announcing. Even when an announcer is wrong, I like it when they state that they disagree with a manager or coach BEFORE the result occurs.

MartyFan
10-06-2011, 12:38 AM
buster olney:


http://twitter.com/#!/buster_espn/status/120996049602101248

ugh!!!! This is the guy i want for the reds!!!

cumberlandreds
10-06-2011, 02:17 PM
I have never heard Francona do a broadcast but I am sure he is an upgrade to McCarver.

Then again a turtle would be an upgrade to.

I'm sorry McCarver is sick but I would prefer just about anyone else over him. Francona may be OK. He seems well spoken whenever I have heard him interviewed in the past.

remdog
10-06-2011, 04:50 PM
ugh!!!! This is the guy i want for the reds!!!

Me too. But, the Reds had their chance and blew it because they wanted a BIG NAME manager. And they got one and a lot of extras like toothpicks, wrist bands, trite phrases and poor manageing.

Oh well. (famous shrug)

Rem

RANDY IN INDY
10-06-2011, 07:01 PM
Heard that Robin Ventura was selected as manager by the Chicago White Sox. Didn't see that one coming.

Ron Madden
10-07-2011, 06:27 AM
Heard that Robin Ventura was selected as manager by the Chicago White Sox. Didn't see that one coming.


Me either. I thought Dave Martinez would have been a wise choice there.

cumberlandreds
10-07-2011, 08:45 AM
Heard that Robin Ventura was selected as manager by the Chicago White Sox. Didn't see that one coming.

I wonder if he will hide in the dugout when they play Nolan Ryan's Rangers? :)

westofyou
10-07-2011, 11:03 AM
I wonder if he will hide in the dugout when they play Nolan Ryan's Rangers? :)

Only if he's afraid that Nolan will eat him