PDA

View Full Version : 2011 Postseason thread



Pages : 1 [2] 3 4

kaldaniels
10-22-2011, 03:43 PM
Albert is always a class act.

http://bitsandpieces.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/imagesfakeout.gif

If we are bringing that back up, to be fair, I'd say again I found that funny.

Strikes Out Looking
10-22-2011, 05:07 PM
Albert's exit from St. Louis will be all class as well, I (and Arod) look forward to the next few weeks.

The Operator
10-22-2011, 05:19 PM
If we are bringing that back up, to be fair, I'd say again I found that funny.It would be to me too if The Cardinals didn't fancy themselves as the keepers of baseball's moral code.

Bob Borkowski
10-22-2011, 07:45 PM
If we are bringing that back up, to be fair, I'd say again I found that funny.

However, would you have found it just as funny if, instead of the guy in the blue shirt, YOU were the one being played for a fool by Prince Albert?

Me? I would have found it far less than funny.

CTA513
10-22-2011, 08:09 PM
Craig has made the most of his at bats so far this World Series

kaldaniels
10-22-2011, 08:55 PM
However, would you have found it just as funny if, instead of the guy in the blue shirt, YOU were the one being played for a fool by Prince Albert?

Me? I would have found it far less than funny.

100 percent I would appreciate the irony/humor.

If I as a grown man in Reds garb were reaching out for a ball in the front row from a Cardinals player or any opponent, I would deserve such a ribbing.

I understand and can't argue with those who feel otherwise, but as a guy who likes to give others a good-hearted hard time, I can't throw my arms up in outrage over that move. This wasn't life or death, it was a foul ball and a grown man.

Bob Borkowski
10-22-2011, 09:14 PM
Pujols has looked disengaged to me. Maybe time (or something else) is starting to catch up with him.

I vote for the 'something else' explanation.

RedsManRick
10-22-2011, 09:20 PM
I'm glad we didn't have to wait 10 secs for an ump in the booth to tell the umps on the field that Napoli made the tag there. What's 1 more run in the WS anyways compared to 10 seconds.

savafan
10-22-2011, 09:20 PM
Bad call at 1st on Holliday

kaldaniels
10-22-2011, 09:21 PM
I'm glad we didn't have to wait 10 secs for an ump in the booth to tell the umps on the field that Napoli made the tag there. What's 1 more run in the WS anyways compared to 10 seconds.

We've always said it will take a play on the game's biggest stage to change stuff like this...maybe that play will be the catalyst.

blumj
10-22-2011, 09:21 PM
I voted for more replay in the "what would you do to improve MLB" thread, and I stand by it.

kaldaniels
10-22-2011, 09:25 PM
I voted for more replay in the "what would you do to improve MLB" thread, and I stand by it.

I want replay and salary equality. But gun to my head give me salary equality and let the chips fall where they may on umpiring issues.

blumj
10-22-2011, 09:33 PM
I want replay and salary equality. But gun to my head give me salary equality and let the chips fall where they may on umpiring issues.
Yeah, I can't argue with that except the how is so much more complicated.

kaldaniels
10-22-2011, 09:36 PM
Yeah, I can't argue with that except the how is so much more complicated.

Agreed. If I were pursing something right now as commish, it would be replay. But in the thread as I mentioned, I regard the question as if it were a wish given to me that would be granted.

savafan
10-22-2011, 09:37 PM
America is learning that Kyle Lohse just isn't that good.

kaldaniels
10-22-2011, 09:41 PM
America is learning that Kyle Lohse just isn't that good.

When I turned on the TV I thought there is no way a team that starts Loshe in game 3 of the WS deserves to be the champions.

savafan
10-22-2011, 09:44 PM
When I turned on the TV I thought there is no way a team that starts Loshe in game 3 of the WS deserves to be the champions.

Truthfully, I had the very same thought.

blumj
10-22-2011, 09:52 PM
I thought that was a bad send, even with 2 outs, wasn't deep enough and Napoli's too slow.

757690
10-22-2011, 10:25 PM
We've always said it will take a play on the game's biggest stage to change stuff like this...maybe that play will be the catalyst.

Well, MLB.com is not shying away from the controversy...

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111022&content_id=25748186&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb


A missed call by first-base umpire Ron Kulpa set in motion a four-run fourth for the Cardinals, who, without the extra out, very well might not have scored at all in the frame against Rangers starter Matt Harrison on Saturday night in Game 3 of the World Series.

VR
10-22-2011, 10:29 PM
That Holliday throw reminded me of Foster's play in Boston a few years back.

What a great game so far....good to be batting last in this one.

savafan
10-22-2011, 10:44 PM
Ugly, ugly game.

blumj
10-22-2011, 10:56 PM
FOX finally figures out that it's a good idea to cut to a commercial when McCarver starts trying to tell a story.

savafan
10-22-2011, 10:59 PM
FOX finally figures out that it's a good idea to cut to a commercial when McCarver starts trying to tell a story.

Unfortunately Buck let him finish when they came back from the break.

CTA513
10-22-2011, 11:27 PM
classy Rangers fan threw a ball at Holliday when he was trying to catch the ball Cruz hit.

savafan
10-22-2011, 11:27 PM
This one has all the excitement of a spring training game to me now.

If the Cardinals lose this series, at least they can use the excuse that a fan threw a ball out of the stands in the outfield of game 3 now.

savafan
10-23-2011, 12:03 AM
Pujols ties Reggie.

Kc61
10-23-2011, 12:06 AM
Think Albert will get some dough this off-season?

savafan
10-23-2011, 12:08 AM
Think Albert will get some dough this off-season?

I'd like to see him sign to play in Japan.

savafan
10-23-2011, 12:14 AM
Pujols isn't a great interview, is he?

CrackerJack
10-23-2011, 02:54 AM
Pujols is baseball - amazing player. Not sure why folks in Cincy can't just give it up for him, the Reds are still little brother to the Cards (and the money teams).

The Cards are to the Reds' what the Steelers' are to the Bengals - better ownership, better coaching, better players, year in and year out. Been that way for a long time now.

RANDY IN INDY
10-23-2011, 11:27 AM
Pujols is a great player but that doesn't mean Reds fans have to blather on about him like George Grande. Maybe a lot of us don't like Pujols and the Cardinals because the Cards are the Reds "arch-rival" now. Big fight last season. Larussa, Duncan, Molina. Whiny punks. A lot of us here don't like the Cardinals, just like a lot of us didn't like the Dodgers back in the day of the NL West. If you want to find overflowing Cardinal love, a Cardinal board would be your best bet.

westofyou
10-23-2011, 11:31 AM
FOX finally figures out that it's a good idea to cut to a commercial when McCarver starts trying to tell a story.

Loved that moment

RANDY IN INDY
10-23-2011, 11:43 AM
Two Cardinal guys in the booth are way too much for me.

VR
10-23-2011, 11:50 AM
Two Cardinal guys in the booth are way too much for me.

Those two anyway. Stale and stiff.

MikeThierry
10-23-2011, 02:34 PM
Josh Hamilton might have a sports hernia instead of a groin injury:

http://bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/other_mlb/view/20111023rangers_josh_hamilton_says_injury_might_be _sports_hernia

savafan
10-23-2011, 05:43 PM
If there's a lesson to be learned from this World Series, I would say it's that a team doesn't need a pitching staff of #1 pitchers to get to the big show. In fact, a rotation of good #2-#4 types with a stellar offense and good defense is enough to win a championship. 3 aces can get you to the playoffs, but it's not a guarantee to win the whole thing. The important formula isn't to outpitch the other team, it's to have a formula of offense, defense and pitching to score more runs than the other team.

savafan
10-23-2011, 09:10 PM
Holland is picking a heck of a time to be having the game of his career.

The Operator
10-23-2011, 10:10 PM
TLR sure pushed the wrong button on that one.

4-0 Texas.

savafan
10-23-2011, 10:10 PM
Well, micro-managing a bullpen didn't work that time. :)

Although in all fairness, Jackson was done.

mbgrayson
10-23-2011, 10:11 PM
Well, LaGenius isn't perfect.... ;)

savafan
10-23-2011, 10:12 PM
Here's something I don't get. Why do relievers get to have so many warm up pitches when they get to the mound after they've been throwing to warm up in the bullpen?

The Operator
10-23-2011, 10:13 PM
Well, LaGenius isn't perfect.... ;)I bet they'll blame the poor quality bullpen phones in Texas. He meant to have Motte come in, instead he got Boggs. I hear Chris Carpenter thinks that's "just really unprofessional." :D

The Operator
10-23-2011, 10:13 PM
Here's something I don't get. Why do relievers get to have so many warm up pitches when they get to the mound after they've been throwing to warm up in the bullpen?My only guess is to get synched up with the catcher.

savafan
10-23-2011, 10:14 PM
I bet they'll blame the poor quality bullpen phones in Texas. He meant to have Motte come in, instead he got Boggs. I hear Chris Carpenter thinks that's "just really unprofessional." :D

Maybe they should stop with landlines and go to texts to the bullpen.

Then again, baseball hates to break tradition. ;)

The Operator
10-23-2011, 10:17 PM
Maybe they should stop with landlines and go to texts to the bullpen.

Then again, baseball hates to break tradition. ;)I can see it now.

"lolz get Salas up. kthx bye <3"

blumj
10-23-2011, 10:27 PM
Here's something I don't get. Why do relievers get to have so many warm up pitches when they get to the mound after they've been throwing to warm up in the bullpen?
Aside from the extra time for more commercials? It's a different mound, it makes sense to give pitchers a chance to adjust to where all the other pitchers have been denting it.

WMR
10-23-2011, 10:28 PM
Yeah the pitcher likes to make the mound "his own." Scuff it how he wants, etc.

savafan
10-23-2011, 10:35 PM
Aside from the extra time for more commercials? It's a different mound, it makes sense to give pitchers a chance to adjust to where all the other pitchers have been denting it.

I assumed it was geared more toward commercials than anything. I may be wrong, but it feels like during the regular season relievers come in and take about 3-5 warm up pitches on the mound, then it's around the horn and we're ready for baseball. During the post season it's like a ten minute event that leads to four hour baseball games.

The Operator
10-23-2011, 10:46 PM
Derek Holland is simply lights out tonight. He's gonna be real, real good. A lefty with stuff like that? Yikes.

blumj
10-23-2011, 10:53 PM
I assumed it was geared more toward commercials than anything. I may be wrong, but it feels like during the regular season relievers come in and take about 3-5 warm up pitches on the mound, then it's around the horn and we're ready for baseball. During the post season it's like a ten minute event that leads to four hour baseball games.
Yeah, it's for the extra commercials.

savafan
10-23-2011, 11:05 PM
Derek Holland is simply lights out tonight. He's gonna be real, real good. A lefty with stuff like that? Yikes.

Heck of a performance.

gilpdawg
10-23-2011, 11:07 PM
I assumed it was geared more toward commercials than anything. I may be wrong, but it feels like during the regular season relievers come in and take about 3-5 warm up pitches on the mound, then it's around the horn and we're ready for baseball. During the post season it's like a ten minute event that leads to four hour baseball games.

Isn't it always 8 pitches, unless the pitcher that was removed was due to an injury?

Sent from my SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

savafan
10-23-2011, 11:11 PM
Isn't it always 8 pitches, unless the pitcher that was removed was due to an injury?

Sent from my SGH-I897 using Tapatalk


8.03 When a pitcher takes his position at the beginning of each inning, or when
he relieves another pitcher, he shall be permitted to pitch not to exceed eight
preparatory pitches to his catcher during which play shall be suspended. A league
by its own action may limit the number of preparatory pitches to less than eight
preparatory pitches. Such preparatory pitches shall not consume more than one
minute of time. If a sudden emergency causes a pitcher to be summoned into the
game without any opportunity to warm up, the umpire in chief shall allow him as
many pitches as the umpire deems necessary.

Redsfan320
10-23-2011, 11:17 PM
Pulling Holland with a 2-hit shutout going= :thumbdown:

Come on, Wash.

Rangers win anyway.

320

MikeThierry
10-23-2011, 11:19 PM
Holland was absolutely filthy tonight. Should be an interesting match up tomorrow with Carpenter vs. Wilson.

savafan
10-23-2011, 11:25 PM
It's too bad that ratings are down for this series, because this has been some great baseball. Pujols' heroics last night, tonight Holland. Great series.

MikeThierry
10-23-2011, 11:30 PM
It's too bad that ratings are down for this series, because this has been some great baseball. Pujols' heroics last night, tonight Holland. Great series.

Game two actually saw better ratings than last year. I know game one was down. I will be interested to see how the ratings increase or not depending how far the series goes.

The Operator
10-23-2011, 11:46 PM
Pulling Holland with a 2-hit shutout going= :thumbdown:

Come on, Wash.

Rangers win anyway.

320He's a pretty young guy and had already racked up 119 pitches. He looked to me like he was visibly starting to lose command during that last at bat.

Patrick Bateman
10-24-2011, 12:03 AM
Pulling Holland with a 2-hit shutout going= :thumbdown:

Come on, Wash.

Rangers win anyway.

320

They are trying to win baseball games.

Feliz is a much better pitcher in that situation.

savafan
10-24-2011, 12:07 AM
They are trying to win baseball games.

Feliz is a much better pitcher in that situation.

I agree with you, but I pause to think about what Dusty Baker might have done in the same situation. Would he have gone to his closer, or would he have allowed the kid to stay in the game when he was out of gas just to try and get the complete game?

redsfandan
10-24-2011, 05:12 AM
If there's a lesson to be learned from this World Series, I would say it's that a team doesn't need a pitching staff of #1 pitchers to get to the big show. In fact, a rotation of good #2-#4 types with a stellar offense and good defense is enough to win a championship. 3 aces can get you to the playoffs, but it's not a guarantee to win the whole thing. The important formula isn't to outpitch the other team, it's to have a formula of offense, defense and pitching to score more runs than the other team.

Great point.

cumberlandreds
10-24-2011, 07:43 AM
Last nights game proved the old saying, Momentum is only as good as the next days starting pitcher. The Rangers got exactly what they needed to stay in this series.

Roy Tucker
10-24-2011, 07:52 AM
Hollands looks about as old as a high school senior. Right down to the bad almost-a-mustache.

Dude can pitch though.

Redsfan320
10-24-2011, 09:31 AM
They are trying to win baseball games.

Feliz is a much better pitcher in that situation.

I know they're trying to win games, I didn't advocate leaving him in for the personal achievement. Its the World Series. I could care less about personal achievements. BUT, I think he was the best guy in that situation. I know Feliz is a lights out closer, RoY, etc., don't get me wrong he's a beast, but Holland was on fire last night. You don't pull a guy then. I mean if he's walked several to load the bases, and the tying run is up, maybe. But the tying run was still in the hole. Its not like he had suddenly fallen apart.

320

kaldaniels
10-24-2011, 10:51 AM
This may go down as a great series, but as each year passes in my relatively young life, I think more and more that the 91 Braves-Twins World Series will be the best I ever see.

Patrick Bateman
10-24-2011, 11:19 AM
I know they're trying to win games, I didn't advocate leaving him in for the personal achievement. Its the World Series. I could care less about personal achievements. BUT, I think he was the best guy in that situation. I know Feliz is a lights out closer, RoY, etc., don't get me wrong he's a beast, but Holland was on fire last night. You don't pull a guy then. I mean if he's walked several to load the bases, and the tying run is up, maybe. But the tying run was still in the hole. Its not like he had suddenly fallen apart.

320

He had thrown his pitch limit, and just walked a batter.
With a righty coming up, the best way to win the game was to see the storm coming, not wait until it already happened (ie. bases loaded).

A rested Feliz vs. a starting pitcher going into unchartered territory pitch wise vs. a righty? Not even close IMO.

cumberlandreds
10-24-2011, 11:38 AM
This may go down as a great series, but as each year passes in my relatively young life, I think more and more that the 91 Braves-Twins World Series will be the best I ever see.

You won't experience too many epic World Series in your lifetime. I'm 48 and will only count a few as in the epic category. 1975 is an easy one and the best I have seen. 1986,1991 and 2001 are three others off the top of my head that I would say fall in that category. The story hasn't been completed on this one yet. It still has a chance to be one of those.

RANDY IN INDY
10-24-2011, 02:35 PM
Having 6 divisions in MLB, extended playoffs and two wild card teams has, no doubt, created a lot of excitement in many more areas across the country. For me, too many times, the best two teams over the course of 162 games of baseball don't play each other in the World Series. I know a lot of people will totally disagree with me, but as a true fan of the national pastime, I find it a little "anti-climactic" and troubling. The teams that get the hottest at the end of the season and the opportune time in the playoffs are often the teams in the fall classic. For me, it doesn't seem like the World Series is representative of what it once was. I guess I am old school.

mth123
10-24-2011, 07:24 PM
Having 6 divisions in MLB, extended playoffs and two wild card teams has, no doubt, created a lot of excitement in many more areas across the country. For me, too many times, the best two teams over the course of 162 games of baseball don't play each other in the World Series. I know a lot of people will totally disagree with me, but as a true fan of the national pastime, I find it a little "anti-climactic" and troubling. The teams that get the hottest at the end of the season and the opportune time in the playoffs are often the teams in the fall classic. For me, it doesn't seem like the World Series is representative of what it once was. I guess I am old school.

I'm with you. The 162 game season is sports ultimate test to separate the good from the bad. IMO the expanded play-offs cheapen that greatly. Add the whole rent a player on July 31 syndrome to the mix and the long season that really is the core of this game has been placed on the back burner.

I understand that the economics demand it be this way, and those in charge would be crazy to turn down the cash that goes with it, but I'd prefer the two teams who proved best over a long season be the ones to play in the series. These short series, as they say, are a "small sample size" and seems the wrong way to determine who should play on the game's biggest stage.

marcshoe
10-24-2011, 07:44 PM
I agree in theory, but in this era of haves and have-not, expanded playoffs are the only hope many small market teams have of an extended season. Going back to a two-team system would ensure big-spending teams in the World Series more often than not.

MikeThierry
10-24-2011, 07:44 PM
You won't experience too many epic World Series in your lifetime. I'm 48 and will only count a few as in the epic category. 1975 is an easy one and the best I have seen. 1986,1991 and 2001 are three others off the top of my head that I would say fall in that category. The story hasn't been completed on this one yet. It still has a chance to be one of those.

I think the 2001 World Series was the best one I have ever seen. I was really too young to remember 91 and 86. Wasn't alive in 75.

The one thing I do like about the Wild Card structure is that it is more difficult to win a World Series now than it ever was. Could you imagine if they had this sort of system in place in the 50's? I don't think the Yankees win half of the championships they did that decade. It does cheapen the 162 game season a bit but makes the playoffs more enjoyable and a marathon race in my opinion.

kaldaniels
10-24-2011, 07:47 PM
I think the 2001 World Series was the best one I have ever seen. I was really too young to remember 91 and 86. Wasn't alive in 75.

The one thing I do like about the Wild Card structure is that it is more difficult to win a World Series now than it ever was. Could you imagine if they had this sort of system in place in the 50's? I don't think the Yankees win half of the championships they did that decade. It does cheapen the 162 game season a bit but makes the playoffs more enjoyable and a marathon race in my opinion.

Good point. Forget that decade, you could cut the number of their titles in half for their entire history, had the wildcard been involved all along.

kaldaniels
10-24-2011, 08:53 PM
For being the next 100 million dollar guy, CJ Wilson needs to stop peeing his pants on the big stage.

kaldaniels
10-24-2011, 08:55 PM
Someone rip Derek Holland, can't be yucking it up with a Harry Caray impression while down in the game. ;)

savafan
10-24-2011, 09:04 PM
Mitch Moreland hasn't shown his power in the postseason, but...

blumj
10-24-2011, 09:07 PM
Mitch Moreland hasn't shown his power in the postseason, but...

The timing of that was hysterical.

dabvu2498
10-24-2011, 09:14 PM
For being the next 100 million dollar guy, CJ Wilson needs to stop peeing his pants on the big stage.

I'm 100 percent convinced his workload has caught up with him.

If I were a GM, I wouldn't touch him for half of what he's expected to make.

blumj
10-24-2011, 10:15 PM
Love the Beltre one knee HR.

savafan
10-24-2011, 10:19 PM
Carpenter was lucky on that pitch.

kaldaniels
10-24-2011, 10:20 PM
Carpenter swears on camera. Drink.

savafan
10-24-2011, 10:21 PM
Carpenter swears on camera. Drink.

I thought that was an F bomb.

mbgrayson
10-24-2011, 10:22 PM
Carpenter swears on camera. Drink.

He sure did. I couldn't get the exact lip reading, but the F word was in there twice. He was screaming this stuff too.... He is a punk.

kaldaniels
10-24-2011, 10:22 PM
I thought that was an F bomb.

Definitely one. I think two.

mbgrayson
10-24-2011, 10:23 PM
I thought that was an F bomb.

How will he explain that to his son.....

kaldaniels
10-24-2011, 10:23 PM
He sure did. I couldn't get the exact lip reading, but the F word was in there twice. He was screaming this stuff too.... He is a punk.

And a tip of the hat to Fox for queuing up the replay.

savafan
10-24-2011, 10:23 PM
He sure did. I couldn't get the exact lip reading, but the F word was in there twice. He was screaming this stuff too.... He is a punk.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/savafan/motivator7a989f5570b052ad6cf0153a90768d178a00b6c8. jpg

Reds Freak
10-24-2011, 10:26 PM
It seems like this poor Ogando guy screws the pooch every time he's in...

kaldaniels
10-24-2011, 10:30 PM
Is walking Pujols to get to Holiday the right move statisically?

blumj
10-24-2011, 10:33 PM
It seems like this poor Ogando guy screws the pooch every time he's in...
He was so great in the other 2 series, but I think he may have run out of gas. This was his first season as a starter, I think he was only a reliever even in the minors, and he wasn't a even a pitcher just a few years ago, I think he played OF.

And, somehow, after BBing and IBBing half the universe he gets out of it.

remdog
10-24-2011, 10:51 PM
Having 6 divisions in MLB, extended playoffs and two wild card teams has, no doubt, created a lot of excitement in many more areas across the country. For me, too many times, the best two teams over the course of 162 games of baseball don't play each other in the World Series. I know a lot of people will totally disagree with me, but as a true fan of the national pastime, I find it a little "anti-climactic" and troubling. The teams that get the hottest at the end of the season and the opportune time in the playoffs are often the teams in the fall classic. For me, it doesn't seem like the World Series is representative of what it once was. I guess I am old school.

Well said Randy. I agree completely with everything you've said above. MLB, along with just about every other professional sport, has diluted the product and has relagated the regular season to an elongated exhibition season to some extent.

Rem

blumj
10-24-2011, 10:52 PM
Is walking Pujols to get to Holiday the right move statisically?

I can't imagine how it could be, it basically started a rally where none existed.

savafan
10-24-2011, 11:13 PM
Ron Washington outgeniused LaGenius.

MikeThierry
10-24-2011, 11:15 PM
Cardinals deserve to lose this game. Absolutely putrid situational hitting and a pathetic effort all night long. I don't care who is on the mound, when there is that many runners on base, they have to bring them home. Good win by Texas.

remdog
10-24-2011, 11:15 PM
I loved it when LaDrunk grabbed his butt. Some would say he grabbed his head but I beg to differ.

Rem

savafan
10-24-2011, 11:17 PM
I loved it when LaDrunk grabbed his butt. Some would say he grabbed his head but I beg to differ.

Rem

:lol:

remdog
10-24-2011, 11:20 PM
I really liked Napoli when he was with the Angels and I once proposed that the Reds try to aquire him.

Mike is certainly paying off for the Rangers at this point.

Rem

MikeThierry
10-24-2011, 11:20 PM
By the way, this game was the series. Congrats to Texas for their first Championship.

savafan
10-24-2011, 11:21 PM
Wait... you bring in a reliever just to pitch an intentional walk?

kaldaniels
10-24-2011, 11:21 PM
Ron Washington outgeniused LaGenius.

Out-jived him as well.

blumj
10-24-2011, 11:21 PM
Ron Washington outgeniused LaGenius.

Looked more like horseshoes and rabbits' feet than brains to me.

kaldaniels
10-24-2011, 11:22 PM
By the way, this game was the series. Congrats to Texas for their first Championship.

So we should expect silence on your front when the Cards win game 6?

savafan
10-24-2011, 11:22 PM
Looked more like horseshoes and rabbits' feet than brains to me.

David Murphy was a pinball wizard in his youth. That was strategic ball placement.

reds44
10-24-2011, 11:23 PM
Did I just see what I think I saw?

kaldaniels
10-24-2011, 11:24 PM
Did I just see what I think I saw?

Do tell. I can rewind.

reds44
10-24-2011, 11:25 PM
It appeared he brought in Lynn to have him intentionally walk a guy and then pull him.

Am I drunk? Is LaRussa?

savafan
10-24-2011, 11:26 PM
It appeared he brought in Lynn to have him intentionally walk a guy and then pull him.

Am I drunk? Is LaRussa?

That's exactly what happened. Boggled me also.

reds44
10-24-2011, 11:27 PM
Never in my life have I seen that before. Ever.

kaldaniels
10-24-2011, 11:28 PM
That's exactly what happened. Boggled me also.

Perhaps he was hoping Washington would send up a PH? Just guessing.

reds44
10-24-2011, 11:29 PM
Perhaps he was hoping Washington would send up a PH? Just guessing.
For Ian Kinsler?

kaldaniels
10-24-2011, 11:29 PM
For Ian Kinsler?

Nothing about that made sense. The only thing that came to my mind.

kaldaniels
10-24-2011, 11:33 PM
Pujols!!!!!

Not.

reds44
10-24-2011, 11:34 PM
Why in the hell do you start the runner there?!

blumj
10-24-2011, 11:36 PM
One of these teams should fire their manager and hire Francona before game 6, I just can't decide which one.

The Operator
10-24-2011, 11:44 PM
That was one crazy game. The Cards went down 3-2 and Carp is more than likely spent for the series, so umm, YEA?!?

HeatherC1212
10-24-2011, 11:46 PM
I didn't realize how badly I wanted the Rangers to win this series until I about jumped off my bed when I saw the info about Napoli's 2B that scored the go ahead runs scroll across my Twitter feed. :jump:

And TLR's reaction during this game got made into a GIF by an awesome person on Twitter and I've been watching it and cracking up for the last ten minutes, LOL :laugh: :thumbup:

Tornon
10-24-2011, 11:46 PM
Perhaps Tony wanted Motte to pitch to Andrus but didn't get him up early enough so he brought Lynn in to walk Kinsler as a stall tactic to get Motte more time

MikeThierry
10-24-2011, 11:48 PM
Perhaps Tony wanted Motte to pitch to Andrus but didn't get him up early enough so he brought Lynn in to walk Kinsler as a stall tactic to get Motte more time

From what I understand is that Lynn wasn't going to pitch in the game due to the innings he had on Saturday. Normally it wouldn't matter but he is coming back from an oblique injury so they aren't pushing it. While it was head scratching at the time for me, your explanation Tornon makes sense.

Again, congrats to the Texas Rangers for their first championship.

blumj
10-24-2011, 11:49 PM
Perhaps Tony wanted Motte to pitch to Andrus but didn't get him up early enough so he brought Lynn in to walk Kinsler as a stall tactic to get Motte more time
Why couldn't Rzepczynski IBB Kinsler?

savafan
10-24-2011, 11:51 PM
Why couldn't Rzepczynski IBB Kinsler?

So, I looked it up. There has never been a relief pitcher put into a game before tonight for the sole purpose of handing out an intentional walk and then get pulled for another reliever immediately afterward.

Tornon
10-24-2011, 11:51 PM
Why couldn't Rzepczynski IBB Kinsler?

He could have, but you get more time for Motte to warm up by having Lynn throw his 8 warm up pitches in the game

blumj
10-24-2011, 11:52 PM
He could have, but you get more time for Motte to warm up by having Lynn throw his 8 warm up pitches in the game

Okay, that does make sense, then.

savafan
10-24-2011, 11:53 PM
Kyle Lohse could have came off the bench to pitch that intentional walk. Heck, Jose Oquendo could have pitched that intentional walk.

Tornon
10-24-2011, 11:56 PM
Kyle Lohse could have came off the bench to pitch that intentional walk. Heck, Jose Oquendo could have pitched that intentional walk.

This is true. If Lynn was unavailable for the game like Mike said, I guess Tony just figured he'd use an actual reliever to do the job

MikeThierry
10-24-2011, 11:56 PM
Kyle Lohse could have came off the bench to pitch that intentional walk. Heck, Jose Oquendo could have pitched that intentional walk.

Kyle Lohse... just the mention of him just sends shivers down my spine. He has to go game seven. Well, if you all see me heavily medicated and drunk if the Cards make it that far, you know the reason why. :eek::confused::beerme:

savafan
10-24-2011, 11:57 PM
Why in the hell do you start the runner there?!

To answer your question, you start the runner there to avoid a double play if Albert makes contact. The plan worked well.

cincinnati chili
10-25-2011, 12:04 AM
Why in the hell do you start the runner there?!

There's no good reason. Down two runs, it's completely indefensible. A strikeout or line drive right at an infielder is much more likely than a double play ground ball.

REDblooded
10-25-2011, 12:05 AM
I didn't realize how badly I wanted the Rangers to win this series until I about jumped off my bed when I saw the info about Napoli's 2B that scored the go ahead runs scroll across my Twitter feed. :jump:

And TLR's reaction during this game got made into a GIF by an awesome person on Twitter and I've been watching it and cracking up for the last ten minutes, LOL :laugh: :thumbup:

Do share the GIF please...

REDblooded
10-25-2011, 12:06 AM
To answer your question, you start the runner there to avoid a double play if Albert makes contact. The plan worked well.

Except it's against a pitcher with heavy flyball/K tendencies...

It was a HORRIBLE move by Tony

savafan
10-25-2011, 12:07 AM
There's no good reason. Down two runs, it's completely indefensible. A strikeout or line drive right at an infielder is much more likely than a double play ground ball.

Didn't Pujols lead the league in GIDP this season?

savafan
10-25-2011, 12:07 AM
Except it's against a pitcher with heavy flyball/K tendencies...

It was a HORRIBLE move by Tony

I'm not defending the move at all, I'm just trying to rationalize it. I agree that it was stupid.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 12:09 AM
Question for everyone. Does anyone feel that the Saturday game where the Cards scored 16 runs made the Cards offense have an all or nothing approach the past two games? They have been good at situational hitting all year long and it looked like too many players were trying to hit home runs the past two games.

REDblooded
10-25-2011, 12:09 AM
The Cardinals, a wild card team that squeezed into the postseason by the slimmest of margins, now gets 2 games to defend at home to win the WS against a team that won their division and finished 6 games better than the Cards...

Oh silly Selig...

Cedric
10-25-2011, 12:11 AM
What happened to Tony tonight? I'm late to the party but can anyone explain leaving the LH in against Napoli and then starting the runner in the 9th?

I'm not sure what the hell just happened with Larussa.

HeatherC1212
10-25-2011, 12:11 AM
Do share the GIF please...

I hope this works...and it does! :D

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/762420/larussa.gif

My gift to you guys before I finally go get some sleep. :p

savafan
10-25-2011, 12:11 AM
Question for everyone. Does anyone feel that the Saturday game where the Cards scored 16 runs made the Cards offense have an all or nothing approach the past two games? They have been good at situational hitting all year long and it looked like too many players were trying to hit home runs the past two games.

No, I think it's a case of micromanaging. You leave Carpenter in the game tonight instead of going to the carousel of relievers, the Cards would have had a better chance at winning.

cincinnati chili
10-25-2011, 12:12 AM
Didn't Pujols lead the league in GIDP this season?

He strikes out more often than he hits into double plays... and the likelihood goes up substantially when you have 2 strikes and Feliz on the mound.

This year on 3-2 counts: Pujols 10 K's in 42 at bats.

And we haven't even considered the variable that base stealers often distract the hitters.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 12:14 AM
No, I think it's a case of micromanaging. You leave Carpenter in the game tonight instead of going to the carousel of relievers, the Cards would have had a better chance at winning.

I was more talking about their lack of hitting in the past two games. I agree that he probably left Carpenter in a bit too long.


What happened to Tony tonight? I'm late to the party but can anyone explain leaving the LH in against Napoli and then starting the runner in the 9th?

I wasn't too upset at that move because he has been nasty all post season against right handed hitters as well. Napoli is just in another world right now.

Tornon
10-25-2011, 12:23 AM
The Cardinals, a wild card team that squeezed into the postseason by the slimmest of margins, now gets 2 games to defend at home to win the WS against a team that won their division and finished 6 games better than the Cards...

Oh silly Selig...

To be fair, before the change was made and it alternated year to year.. odd years were home field advantage for the NL. So the Cards would have this either way

cincinnati chili
10-25-2011, 12:23 AM
The Cardinals, a wild card team that squeezed into the postseason by the slimmest of margins, now gets 2 games to defend at home to win the WS against a team that won their division and finished 6 games better than the Cards...

Oh silly Selig...

It's not that big a deal. For years, the leagues rotated. Teams with home field win about 57% of the time: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/21/sports/la-sp-home-field-advantage-20110722

reds44
10-25-2011, 12:27 AM
I understand why you start the runner in theory, but my God Craig's run meant nothing and Feliz is a strikeout pitcher. Just dumb.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 12:32 AM
I understand why you start the runner in theory, but my God Craig's run meant nothing and Feliz is a strikeout pitcher. Just dumb.

I personally hate it when LaRussa puts on the hit and run for Pujols. He is arguably the best player in baseball for the past ten or so years. In my opinion, TLR is just taking the bat out of his hand when he does that. More than likely he isn't going to make solid contact and as someone mentioned before, the runner moving is a distraction. I hate that move with any #3 legit power hitter in the lineup.

Reds/Flyers Fan
10-25-2011, 12:34 AM
Here we go Rangers, here we go!

Seriously, I never thought I'd ever root for a team from Texas this hard. But, at this point, give me some cowboy boots and cue the country music! Go Tejas!

blumj
10-25-2011, 12:37 AM
I was more talking about their lack of hitting in the past two games. I agree that he probably left Carpenter in a bit too long.



I wasn't too upset at that move because he has been nasty all post season against right handed hitters as well. Napoli is just in another world right now.
Someone on another board referred to that LH as "Scrabble". If that's not his real nickname, it should be.

savafan
10-25-2011, 12:39 AM
The Cardinals, a wild card team that squeezed into the postseason by the slimmest of margins, now gets 2 games to defend at home to win the WS against a team that won their division and finished 6 games better than the Cards...

Oh silly Selig...

Speaking completely unbiasedly, the Cardinals have a very balanced team with arguably the best offense in the National League in 2011. Imagine how much better they would have been had Wainwright been healthy. Now consider how good they can be in 2012 if Wainwright returns to form and they keep Pujols.

I think there is this misconception that the NL Central is a weak division because of how the schedule is set up and these 6 teams take turns beating up on one another for roughly 50% of the season. Under the old balanced schedule, I shudder to think what kind of record Milwaukee, St. Louis and yes, even Cincinnati, could put up playing a more even number of games against the other National League teams.

Chip R
10-25-2011, 12:47 AM
I personally hate it when LaRussa puts on the hit and run for Pujols. He is arguably the best player in baseball for the past ten or so years. In my opinion, TLR is just taking the bat out of his hand when he does that. More than likely he isn't going to make solid contact and as someone mentioned before, the runner moving is a distraction. I hate that move with any #3 legit power hitter in the lineup.

Take it with a grain of salt since McCarver said it but he said Pujols puts the hit & run on himself a lot of the time.

True to form the Cardinals blamed that 8th inning bullpen debacle on the bullpen phones and the crowd noise. :rolleyes:

savafan
10-25-2011, 12:49 AM
True to form the Cardinals blamed that 8th inning bullpen debacle on the bullpen phones and the crowd noise. :rolleyes:

I'd ask if you're serious, but you can't make that kind of stuff up. I'll go back to what I said last night about doing away with the landlines and sending texts to the bullpen. :laugh:

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 12:50 AM
Someone on another board referred to that LH as "Scrabble". If that's not his real nickname, it should be.

Yeah, that is his real nickname here because nobody could pronounce his name when the Cards acquired him, lol.


Speaking completely unbiasedly, the Cardinals have a very balanced team with arguably the best offense in the National League in 2011. Imagine how much better they would have been had Wainwright been healthy. Now consider how good they can be in 2012 if Wainwright returns to form and they keep Pujols.

They clearly had the best offense in the NL and it wasn't really close. They were the only team to not strike out 1000 times. They had 24 more RBI's than the next team, their batting average was 9 points higher than the next team, OBP 6 points higher, was tied with Milwaukee in SLG., and their OPS was 16 points higher than the next team. When it came to runners in scoring position they were off the charts. They had a .290 average with runners in scoring position which was 21 points higher than the next team in the NL and actually led all of baseball. All that was accomplished in a very pitcher friendly park.

All of that said, it will be very difficult to maintain that level of offense in that park. I think those stats will normalize. Berkman, I feel, will have a slight decline in production and Pujols is an unknown. It will be a dogfight with the Reds next year because I see the Reds improving due to their pitching being a year older and more experience under their belt.

RedsManRick
10-25-2011, 12:51 AM
LaRussa's explanations make sense, but if one of his players gave an explanation like that for showing up to the flight late, he probably wouldn't be welcomed on to the next one.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 12:53 AM
True to form the Cardinals blamed that 8th inning bullpen debacle on the bullpen phones and the crowd noise.

That is pathetic on two fronts. First off, if it is true, the bullpen coach position should be up for grabs next year. That is inexcusable in this situation. If LaRussa is trying to cover his butt on this, then it is pathetic. I generally can defend some of the things done such as Yadi sticking up for his team mates in the Phillips incident and even the whole ball gate stuff with John Smoltz. This though is indefensible and the Cards deserve to lose the series on that basis alone.

gilpdawg
10-25-2011, 12:55 AM
By the way, this game was the series. Congrats to Texas for their first Championship.

Come on Mike, I know you're probably posting when you're mad, but you're smarter than that. It ain't over.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

cincinnati chili
10-25-2011, 12:57 AM
I'd ask if you're serious, but you can't make that kind of stuff up. I'll go back to what I said last night about doing away with the landlines and sending texts to the bullpen. :laugh:

He's serious. Apparently this happens more often than we think. I didn't see your post last night, but your suggestion is a good one. MLB doesn't allow electronic equipment in the dugout, but allowing some kind of texting mechanism from pen to dugout in all parks would make sense.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 12:58 AM
Come on Mike, I know you're probably posting when you're mad, but you're smarter than that. It ain't over.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

I'm still hopeful but I'm a realist. For one, Texas hasn't lost back to back games for ages it seems. Secondly, Garcia is inconsistent. He looks like Sandy Koufax one game but then looks like garbage the next. I just don't know if his mentality is ready for a do or die game. Then in a potential game seven, Kyle Lohse will be pitching. That alone is enough to get a prescription for pain killers. They have had their backs against the wall for over a month now so anything is possible. Its just the odds are heavily stacked to the point where I have to give Texas the series.

gilpdawg
10-25-2011, 01:00 AM
To be fair, before the change was made and it alternated year to year.. odd years were home field advantage for the NL. So the Cards would have this either way

It's better than it was then, Boston had home field in 75 over the BRM. That's just as stupid.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

Ron Madden
10-25-2011, 02:50 AM
It's been a very interesting series so far, I hope it goes seven games.

reds44
10-25-2011, 02:53 AM
Here's what doesn't make sense about LaRussa's explanation:

Tim Kurkjian said La Russa expected it to be Motte coming out of the pen and not Lynn. IF that's true then yes the bullpen phone thing could make sense, HOWEVER

why was Scrabble left in to face Napoli then? Why wouldn't you have brought in who you thought was Motte?

Me thinks TLR is full of doo doo.

The Operator
10-25-2011, 03:13 AM
I bet they'll blame the poor quality bullpen phones in Texas. He meant to have Motte come in, instead he got Boggs. I hear Chris Carpenter thinks that's "just really unprofessional." :D
Looks like I know The Cards better than I thought. Wow.

Would it kill them to tip their cap and admit the other team was better?

The Operator
10-25-2011, 04:23 AM
Also, apparently all of those expletives Carpenter was caught on camera yelling were being directed at Mike Napoli. Napoli just said "It's unfortunate, I don't even know the guy."

Carpenter must have some serious anger issues boiling below the surface.

mbgrayson
10-25-2011, 08:20 AM
Tony LaRussa speaks to the media (http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_ebd63c47-d56e-5957-93ac-d14c84f2ad70.html#ixzz1bnMgCqBa)on his Game 5 brilliance:


"Well, what happened was twice the bullpen didn't hear Motte's name," La Russa explained. "They heard ‘Rzepczynski' and they didn't get Motte (ready). I looked up there and Motte wasn't going. So I called back for Motte, and they got Lynn up. ... I don't know if it was noisy."


And Bernie Miklasz (http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bernie-miklasz/article_8305d4d0-febe-11e0-8872-0019bb30f31a.html#ixzz1bnOtxvqW) adds to the questions:


Others in the bullpen offered a different version of events of the phone calls and instructions, so who really knows what happened?

marcshoe
10-25-2011, 09:03 AM
This has gone beyond caricature. I mean, really now; is LaRussa putting us on? Did he read Redszone and decide to have some fun with us?

Inconceivable. And that word does mean what I think it does.

Homer Bailey
10-25-2011, 09:19 AM
My only guess is to get synched up with the catcher.

Hahaha, wow, this is an incredible call.

RichRed
10-25-2011, 09:41 AM
They heard ‘Rzepczynski' and they didn't get Motte (ready). I looked up there and Motte wasn't going. So I called back for Motte, and they got Lynn up.

Those three names do sound an awful lot alike. :confused:

redsfandan
10-25-2011, 09:42 AM
Tony LaRussa speaks to the media (http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_ebd63c47-d56e-5957-93ac-d14c84f2ad70.html#ixzz1bnMgCqBa)on his Game 5 brilliance:

"Well, what happened was twice the bullpen didn't hear Motte's name," La Russa explained. "They heard ‘Rzepczynski' and they didn't get Motte (ready). I looked up there and Motte wasn't going. So I called back for Motte, and they got Lynn up. ... I don't know if it was noisy."

And Bernie Miklasz (http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bernie-miklasz/article_8305d4d0-febe-11e0-8872-0019bb30f31a.html#ixzz1bnOtxvqW) adds to the questions:

I heard on the late night radio that the Cards bullpen couldn't even be seen from their dugout. Hmmm ...

Strikes Out Looking
10-25-2011, 09:50 AM
I heard on the late night radio that the Cards bullpen couldn't even be seen from their dugout. Hmmm ...

Move over Napa Valley, there is a new home to the best whine in America.

thatcoolguy_22
10-25-2011, 10:03 AM
I didn't know that Pujols is making strategy decisions in crucial situations. Pujols called the second hit-and-run on his own, in the ninth inning. And then he didn't even bother to swing as Craig got cut down at second.


Is it common for star players to call an audible like this, in baseball?

RedFanAlways1966
10-25-2011, 12:32 PM
Wow... a game where certain players make around $30,000 per plate appearance (if they are healthy all year). And you do not have enough foresight (despite being one of the smartest managers in the history of the game?) after playing 2 games there to purchase your own INEXPENSIVE walktie-talkie set.

Next! I ain't buying.

Kc61
10-25-2011, 12:39 PM
The national media has certainly focused on these events last night.

But they don't seem to be picking up on the Cards general reputation in the whine area.

Slyder
10-25-2011, 12:50 PM
The national media has certainly focused on these events last night.

But they don't seem to be picking up on the Cards general reputation in the whine area.

Of course not they have the golden ones (Pujols, LaDoubleday, Berkman, Molina), they can do NO WRONG!!!!! EVER!!!

mbgrayson
10-25-2011, 01:15 PM
There is also this little tidbit (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Chris-Carpenter-yelled-naughty-words-at-Mike-Nap?urn=mlb-wp25385&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)on Chris Carpenter yelling at Mike Napoli:


"(Bleep) you!" Carpenter appeared to scream. "You piece of (bleep)! (Bleep) you!"

cumberlandreds
10-25-2011, 01:53 PM
There is also this little tidbit (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Chris-Carpenter-yelled-naughty-words-at-Mike-Nap?urn=mlb-wp25385&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)on Chris Carpenter yelling at Mike Napoli:

By reading the comments under this article it looks like the rest of the nation is catching on to the Cardinals act.

medford
10-25-2011, 02:06 PM
I'm not buying the Bullpen phone issues. OK, so you can't see the bullpen from the Cardinals dugout, doesn't that behoove them to have somebody in the stands, that can physically see into the bullpen and relay messages back to the dugout (assuming picking up a cell phone and texting the names isn't an option)? Further more, don't know if Fox showed who was warming up in the bullpen, didn't catch that part of the game, but wouldn't somebody have it on TV in the locker room with an idea of what Tony wanted? I think its merly cover for Tony because his team lost. Another excuse about how the Cardinals should have/could have won, but something beyond their control prevented it. At best, they were poorly prepared for a situation that was at a minimum predictable.

Stay classy St Louis.

kaldaniels
10-25-2011, 02:12 PM
I'm not buying the phone story....but still, what happened then?

mbgrayson
10-25-2011, 02:15 PM
Also, this was their 3rd World Series game in Texas. Surely, after the first two games, they would have known about the noise and the bullpen phones and taken steps to fix the issue, if it really existed.

Just seems like it would have been so much easier for TLR to have admitted that he screwed up and didn't tell them to get Motte warmed up until too late. But that way, manning up and accepting responsibility, is too contrary to TLR's modus operandi.

cumberlandreds
10-25-2011, 02:29 PM
Also, this was their 3rd World Series game in Texas. Surely, after the first two games, they would have known about the noise and the bullpen phones and taken steps to fix the issue, if it really existed.

Just seems like it would have been so much easier for TLR to have admitted that he screwed up and didn't tell them to get Motte warmed up until too late. But that way, manning up and accepting responsibility, is too contrary to TLR's modus operandi.

If he did that and he's trying to cover up with the phone problems then he looks just that much more foolish. He could have always said it was a gut decision not to bring in Motte and no one would have questioned him all that much.

membengal
10-25-2011, 02:40 PM
Brandon Phillips is having a REALLY good World Series.

CTA513
10-25-2011, 03:07 PM
I'm not buying the phone story....but still, what happened then?

they wanted everyone to talk about them and succeeded.

The Operator
10-25-2011, 04:17 PM
Found on the interwebs:

http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q345/Der_Lehrer/call-to-the-pen.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/7CVc8.jpg

redsmetz
10-25-2011, 05:10 PM
There is also this little tidbit (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Chris-Carpenter-yelled-naughty-words-at-Mike-Nap?urn=mlb-wp25385&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)on Chris Carpenter yelling at Mike Napoli:

"Carpenter, meanwhile, would have offered comment, but he was too busy eating a postgame meal of Irish Spring and Dial." My mother's meal of choice for me when I used such language.

savafan
10-25-2011, 05:40 PM
I'm not buying the Bullpen phone issues. OK, so you can't see the bullpen from the Cardinals dugout, doesn't that behoove them to have somebody in the stands, that can physically see into the bullpen and relay messages back to the dugout (assuming picking up a cell phone and texting the names isn't an option)? Further more, don't know if Fox showed who was warming up in the bullpen, didn't catch that part of the game, but wouldn't somebody have it on TV in the locker room with an idea of what Tony wanted? I think its merly cover for Tony because his team lost. Another excuse about how the Cardinals should have/could have won, but something beyond their control prevented it. At best, they were poorly prepared for a situation that was at a minimum predictable.

Stay classy St Louis.

They clearly showed Lynn warming up in the bullpen on the game telecast.

The Operator
10-25-2011, 05:47 PM
It's pretty clear to me that Tony was trying to be the world's greatest genius last night, and it blew up in his face. Rather than owning up to it, he's pulling this ridiculous story out of his Carpenter to try and save face. The guy is nuts.

savafan
10-25-2011, 05:52 PM
This is classic LaRussa. I think many of us who remember the 1990 series recall the Oakland players whining afterward about how the best team didn't win.

savafan
10-25-2011, 06:03 PM
Here's something else LaRussa could have done if Motte truly was his pitcher of choice and just wasn't ready, and I believe that I have seen this move done before. Swap Scrabble with Pujols (or any position player for that matter) and let Pujols throw the intentional walk to Kinsler while Motte finishes warming up. IF the game had gone to extra innings, and LaRussa had wasted Lynn for 1 batter to pitch an intentional walk and had run out of pitchers, he would have looked even more stupid than he does right now.

mbgrayson
10-25-2011, 06:33 PM
I keep seeing more stories on what they are calling 'BullpenGate'. This one (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/world-series-game-5-bizarre-controversy-over-botched-call-to-bullpen-plagues-Tony-La-Russa-102411)is interesting and points out that LaRussa's two explanations are inconsistent with each other. Also, the call to get Scrabble warming up came between innings when Dotel was coming in, making it less likely that noise would have been an issue. :



Two statements from La Russa’s press conference seemed to contradict each other.

La Russa said Motte would have faced Napoli if he was ready to do so.

And yet La Russa said he wasn’t aware that Lynn was the right-hander warming up until he removed Rzepczynski from the game.

That happened after Napoli batted.

Also, the funny video of Tony grabbing his head occurred after Rzepczynski loaded the bases, and Napoli was coming in with the bags filled. Now, the Cardinals would have to PITCH to him with a lefty, since there was no rightly warming. I wonder if it was this fact dawning on TLR that made him grab his head as he realized his error. If Rzepczynski gets an out with Murphy up, or if a runner gets knocked in, then there is an open base and they can walk Napoli. When that didn't happen, TLR realized he wasn't prepared, and reacted as we have all seen.

http://i.imgur.com/vkVue.gif

savafan
10-25-2011, 06:36 PM
There's been a lot of talk on Redszone over the years, especially in regard to Dusty Baker, about how managers neither win nor lose ballgames. Well, if there's one lesson to take away from Game 5 of the 2011 World Series, I think it's that a manager can lose a ballgame, because this loss rests on Tony LaRussa. I'm not saying Ron Washington managed well enough to win, because he certainly made some baffling moves as well, but LaRussa managed to lose.

Something interesting to ponder. LaRussa's contract is up after the World Series. If St. Louis loses the series, will we perhaps see someone else in the Cardinal's dugout in 2012?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/tom_verducci/10/25/game.5/


He had his best right-handed specialist, Octavio Dotel, on the mound in a 2-2 tie with a runner at second base after he had just struck out Adrian Beltre on three pitches. Everybody knew going into this series that Dotel's job was to troubleshoot the right-handed hitters that Washington stacks in the middle of his lineup: Michael Young, Beltre and Cruz.

Suddenly, pitching coach Dave Duncan walked out to the mound and told Dotel, "We're going to walk [Cruz]."

Dotel came back with the obvious reply: "Why?"





When I asked La Russa if he could do this because he thought he had closer Jason Motte ready for Napoli, he replied, "Well, I was more thinking that we had a real good chance with Rzepcynski with a pinch-hitter [for Murphy] or not, and if we got an out or not we were going to pitch around Napoli and then go after the left-hander."





Think along with La Russa here. He thinks he has Motte warming with Rzepczynski. So after Rzepczynski comes in and Murphy gets on and the bases are loaded and Napoli is up, what does La Russa do? Does he go out to the mound and call for Motte, whom he thinks he has ready? No. And if somehow word got to La Russa that Motte was not throwing, are you telling me the world's master at stalling a game -- who had not yet made a mound visit to Rzepczynski, and who knows he has three-minute commercial breaks for pitching changes where the guy has more time to get loose, and who has a guy who gets loose quickly -- made no attempt to buy time to get Motte in the game?




This time, La Russa said, when he said "Motte" into the phone, Lilliquist thought he said "Lynn." Lance Lynn is a guy La Russa said two days ago was not available for Games 4 and 5 except in an emergency because he needed rest. So Lilliquist hears that La Russa wants a guy who's not available to start throwing and thinks nothing of getting him up?

Every team begins every game with a list of pitchers who are available and not available. Lynn was so unavailable that when he did show up on the game mound -- La Russa thought he was bringing in Motte to face Kinsler -- La Russa didn't even want him facing one batter and ordered him to toss four intentional balls. What kind of massive breakdown has to occur for that to happen?




Think about what La Russa is saying here. Pujols represents the tying run, and yet La Russa is talking about him as if he is Nick Punto. He is thinking about Pujols -- who two days earlier joined Babe Ruth and Reggie Jackson as the only men ever to hit three homers in a World Series game -- hitting a groundball through the right side of the infield with Kinsler covering second base. A groundball to second base with Pujols finally getting a chance to swing the bat as the potential tying run! Do you know how many opposite field singles Pujols had this year in 651 plate appearances? Eleven.



http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AjD4I4ny1dxyfW73BvHKbws5nYcB?slug=jp-passan_world_series_game_five_la_russa_102411


ARLINGTON, Texas – He couldn’t do it. The Genius couldn’t take ownership of the fiasco he oversaw. Of all the places to manage the single worst inning of a career with 50,000 of them, Tony La Russa chose the eighth inning of the fifth game of a dead-even World Series. And as the fallout of his meltdown pervaded a St. Louis Cardinals club still mortified at what had transpired, he chalked it up to three screw-ups, as if the gods had decided to conspire against him.

“On our team, nobody gets thrown under the bus,” La Russa said, and atop that list is him. He wears the genius tag for his strategic savoir faire, wears the salary that accompanies it, wears them so proudly that it wears down all who refuse his Kool-Aid. When it comes to the Cardinals, the bus will roll over everyone before Tony La Russa smells the rubber.

The truth about how Game 5 devolved into an all-time mismanagement of a baseball game may surface someday. It is not material now. What is, and what’s especially relevant to the 107th World Series, is that it happened, and the Texas Rangers stand one game from their first championship with two chances to win it in St. Louis after their 4-2 victory Monday.

To whom it happened: That, too, is of great import. As La Russa played subterfuge artist, offering a story dotted with holes unbecoming of a man with a law degree, it was obvious that he was trying to protect someone, and he would go to such lengths only to save himself. Something jammed the St. Louis Cardinals’ machine, that chugging engine of efficiency and intellect, and La Russa couldn’t swallow the blame even though he’s its architect and supervisor.

All of it was too funny to believe. The malfunctioning bullpen phone. The bullpen coach not hearing a name, then confusing the name “Motte” with “Lynn.” Intentional walks distributed like Halloween candy. Using the pitcher who was told before the game he wouldn’t be used. Sending a left-handed pitcher against a right-handed hitter who destroys southpaws. And everything in the same inning no less, an eighth La Russa wishes he could stick in a sepulcher and forget it ever happened.

And that doesn’t even include the “mix-up” on the basepaths or the three ill-timed sacrifice bunts or any of the other bits of bizarro baseball that saw La Russa’s managerial IQ degrade as the game wore on, like he was Charlie in “Flowers for Algernon.”

Most surreal was the postgame explanation in which La Russa offered a story with more holes than one spun by a 9-year-old trying to explain away a broken vase. To realize its absurdity, it’s important to understand the scenario that faced La Russa – the sort he had navigated with incredible acuity before the World Series.

Sometime toward the beginning of the eighth, with the score 2-2, La Russa picked up a phone to call bullpen coach Derek Lilliquist. He said he told Lilliquist he wanted left-hander Marc Rzepczynski and right-hander Jason Motte(notes) to warm up.

Meanwhile, with Michael Young(notes) on second base and one out, La Russa ordered reliever Octavio Dotel(notes) to walk Nelson Cruz(notes), a senseless base to give. Unless David Murphy(notes), the next hitter up, grounded into a double play, it ensured the Rangers’ hottest hitter, Mike Napoli(notes), would bat with runners on base. If Rzepczynski recorded an out, La Russa planned to pitch around Napoli and let him face left-handed Mitch Moreland(notes).

“I want to pitch Cruz,” Dotel said. “I do. I’ve got that feeling that I was going to pitch. I’m not going to lie. When Duncan came and said we are going to walk this guy, I say, ‘Why?’ He say, ‘The manager want to do that.’ And I respect that.”

With Cruz on first and Young at second, Murphy laced an infield single off Rzepczynski. According to one version of La Russa’s story, it was time for Motte.

One problem: There was no Motte.

“It was just basically a miscommunication,” Lilliquist said. “It was loud. A lot of places are like that. The phone is as good as any phone anywhere.”

And yet somehow, Motte hadn’t warmed up alongside Rzepczynski. So, La Russa said, he called to correct the error and ready Motte. Only the second time, Lilliquist said he heard reliever Lance Lynn’s(notes) name, not Motte’s, even though it was determined before the game that Lynn would pitch only in an emergency.

Why La Russa, the king of stalling to let a reliever get warm, didn’t pull out every trick remains a mystery. Instead, Napoli stepped in against Rzepczynski and took a hanging slider to right-center field for a two-run double and 4-2 advantage.

Two batters later, La Russa summoned a right-hander. He said he thought Motte would come. This conflicted with his story that he was going to put Motte in to face Napoli if Murphy got on base and lent credence to the theory that La Russa planned the entire time to pitch around Napoli and found himself pinned in when Murphy singled. Even so, it would be a botch of monumental proportions.

Instead, Lynn ran out of the bullpen, took the ball and intentionally walked Ian Kinsler(notes). La Russa yanked him immediately thereafter for Motte. Not only had La Russa misused his bullpen, he had made a pitching change specifically to intentionally walk a batter, something that would be downright hilarious were the rest of his night not such a disaster.

None of it made sense. Zero. Nil. Nada. Not an iota. Not a whit, not a sliver, not an atom.

And it dovetailed with La Russa’s bumbling since the series’ second game. In it, he relieved Motte, his best reliever and best chance at a strikeout or ground ball from Josh Hamilton(notes), with soft-tossing lefty specialist Arthur Rhodes(notes). Hamilton’s deep fly ball drove in one runner and advanced the winning run to third.

This was far worse. Seriously, La Russa wants people to believe that he, the most controlling of control-freak managers, would let a failure the magnitude of his best reliever not warming up go by without a trillion precautions to ensure it didn’t happen again? The guy who, when the bullpen phone malfunctioned earlier this year, sent one of his players sprinting from bench to bullpen to relay instructions – he would sit there idly in a swing game of the World Series and leave his chances up to a set of ears on the other end that blew the first conversation?

Inconsistencies between La Russa and Lilliquist’s stories were plentiful enough that it’s impossible to know what is truth and what isn’t. There could be more. Did La Russa forget the number of outs when he walked Cruz? Did he forget to mention Motte’s name on the first phone call? Most important, in what universe does “Motte” sound like “Lynn”? Especially a Lynn who isn’t supposed to throw.

“If he hears ‘Lynn’ and I’m the manager,” La Russa said, “what is he going to say?”

What he should say is: Hey, skip, he’s not supposed to pitch, right? It’s what any employee with a working relationship and not one of subservience would say to his boss. That La Russa runs a ship in which such communication isn’t encouraged personifies who he is and how he manages. It makes his successes great. It makes his failures spectacular.

It all smells fishy, and it’s because La Russa played guppy in the ultimate role reversal. This was supposed to be Ron Washington, the Rangers’ high-energy, low-strategy manager, the one who at the beginning of the series seemed the certain of the two to explain away tactical flubs with incomplete reason and mindless rationale and circuitous sentences. Even though he issued too many intentional passes and batted his best hitter, Napoli, eighth, Washington got away with it. His rationale for keeping Napoli there – he wanted to split up Murphy and Moreland, his lefties – ended up contributing to La Russa’s confusion, and at night’s end Washington found himself one victory away from a ring fitting.

La Russa kept tripping over his shoelaces. Allen Craig(notes), who might be slower than his pet tortoise, got caught stealing second base in the ninth inning on a failed hit-and-run when Albert Pujols(notes) swung through strike three from Neftali Feliz(notes). Two innings earlier, Craig had been gunned down, a play in which another “mix-up” – La Russa’s words – led to a wasted out with Pujols at the plate in a tie game.

“I got the sign and I ran,” Craig said. “Simple as that.”

Yes, Craig refused to throw anyone under the bus. He did manage to absolve himself, however, a tactic that his manager employed with great efficacy. As his machine sputtered and his season came down to handing a dangerous Rangers team consecutive losses, the damage to the Cardinals following Game 5 was evident.

In the tensest of baseball moments, the ones in which he’s supposed to thrive, the guy who broke first was Tony La Russa. And as he stepped around the debris of his own mess, it was obvious: For a lawyer, he offered a miserable defense.

Vottomatic
10-25-2011, 06:49 PM
It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

jojo
10-25-2011, 06:53 PM
I'm not buying the phone story....but still, what happened then?

Texting is illegal in the majors.

The Operator
10-25-2011, 07:37 PM
http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q345/Der_Lehrer/tonysmart.jpg

cincrazy
10-25-2011, 07:56 PM
One of the strangest stories I've EVER seen. I find it hard to believe a HOF manager with so many great moments on his resume makes THAT kind of gaffe. But, I have a hard time coming up with a logical explanation. I just literally have no idea what in the world happened.

mbgrayson
10-25-2011, 08:02 PM
Do you think the Cardinals had a 'happy flight' back to St. Louis? I doubt it.

That is two off-days in a row where the national media has been able to feast and dwell on Cardinal mistakes. Gotta make for a fun day for the Cards....not.

OTOH, it was after the last off day that Pujols exploded for 3 HRs, following his controversy of avoiding the media after Game 2.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 08:07 PM
Well, if there's one lesson to take away from Game 5 of the 2011 World Series, I think it's that a manager can lose a ballgame, because this loss rests on Tony LaRussa.

I think it has more to do with the Cardinals being 1-12 with runners in scoring position. Yes, LaRussa and the idiotic bullpen phone issue is part of the reason why they lost but I put most of the blame on lack of situational hitting and horrible approach last night. That aspect seems to be lost in this discussion. It will be a shame because these shenanigans, if the Cards manage to lose game 6, will overshadow the epic run that the team went on and it will overshadow the overall good that the team did the past two or so months.

savafan
10-25-2011, 08:12 PM
I think it has more to do with the Cardinals being 1-12 with runners in scoring position. Yes, LaRussa and the idiotic bullpen phone issue is part of the reason why the lost but I put most of the blame on lack of situational hitting. That aspect seems to be lost in this discussion.

Right, because putting on the hit and run, or allowing Pujols to put on the hit and run on his own, with fleet footed Allen Craig on first and Pujols, who the night before pulled off a feat accomplished only twice before in history, standing at the plate representing the tying run with your manager hoping he would slap it on the ground through the hole to the right side when he'd only done that 11 times all year makes a lot of sense.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 08:23 PM
Right, because putting on the hit and run, or allowing Pujols to put on the hit and run on his own, with fleet footed Allen Craig on first and Pujols, who the night before pulled off a feat accomplished only twice before in history, standing at the plate representing the tying run with your manager hoping he would slap it on the ground through the hole to the right side when he'd only done that 11 times all year makes a lot of sense.

Pujols has been able to put on his own hit and run for ages now. I'm not going to blame LaRussa for something that has been allowed for that player to do for a couple of years now. The policy of allowing Pujols putting on the hit and run was probably the furthest thing from his mind going into that game that night. The last hit and run I will grant you was not the best decision in the world, however the Cards still had a ton of opportunities to cash in.

Patrick Bateman
10-25-2011, 08:31 PM
I think it has more to do with the Cardinals being 1-12 with runners in scoring position. Yes, LaRussa and the idiotic bullpen phone issue is part of the reason why they lost but I put most of the blame on lack of situational hitting and horrible approach last night. That aspect seems to be lost in this discussion. It will be a shame because these shenanigans, if the Cards manage to lose game 6, will overshadow the epic run that the team went on and it will overshadow the overall good that the team did the past two or so months.

Stuff like that happens all the time.

1-12? All the time. That's mostly just random rather than controllable.

The Cards failed very badly at stuff that was 100% within their power. That is much less defensible.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 08:37 PM
Stuff like that happens all the time.

1-12? All the time. That's mostly just random rather than controllable.

The Cards failed very badly at stuff that was 100% within their power. That is much less defensible.

1-12 doesn't happen all the time in the World Series. The Rangers walked 9 Cardinals hitters and had two errors on the night yet they managed to win. David Schoenfield said it best in his article last night on ESPN.com:

"In other good news for Rangers fans, their club won a game it had absolutely no right winning. How did the Rangers survive to pull this one out? Only the baseball gods know the answer to that one. The Rangers were charged with only two errors but made five major defensive miscues. They issued four intentional walks (only the third time in World Series history that's happened). They walked nine batters altogether (only the 16th time a team has walked nine-plus in a World Series, and only the fourth team to win). They hit a batter and tossed a wild pitch. They threw 181 pitches in nine innings."

gahh... I just want to forget about that horribly managed and horribly played game all together and look forward to game 6.

savafan
10-25-2011, 08:43 PM
We're seeing two very different types of managers here in LaRussa and Washington. LaRussa analyzes every minute detail of what's happening on the diamond while Washington trusts his players and lets them go out and play. Washington's strategy is to more or less depend on your players and hope you get lucky while LaRussa wants the focus to be on his managerial style, which more often than not has worked for him. Last night it all fell apart though. I think you would find players would rather play for a guy like Washington (who is similar to Dusty, IMO) than LaRussa.

Vottomatic
10-25-2011, 08:50 PM
Well, after the Cards exploded for 16 runs or 17, not sure........I said the next day they may have blown their offensive output all in one game.

Hopefully they did.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 09:06 PM
Well, after the Cards exploded for 16 runs or 17, not sure........I said the next day they may have blown their offensive output all in one game.

Hopefully they did.

I think that it may have had an impact on their hitting approach the following two games. Instead of the situational hitting that was successful for them most of the year, it seemed that many of the hitters took an all or nothing approach at the plate the rest of the games there.

Sava, that may have been the worst managed game by TLR I have seen all year long if not the past couple of years. Even by TLR's over managing standards that was beyond bad. The bullpen confusion at the end is something I have never seen from him in the 16 or so years that I have watched him as Cardinals manager. It left the TLR bashers here in St. Louis even scratching their heads.

Spitball
10-25-2011, 09:45 PM
ARLINGTON, Texas – He couldn’t do it. The Genius couldn’t take ownership of the fiasco he oversaw. Of all the places to manage the single worst inning of a career with 50,000 of them, Tony La Russa chose the eighth inning of the fifth game of a dead-even World Series. And as the fallout of his meltdown pervaded a St. Louis Cardinals club still mortified at what had transpired, he chalked it up to three screw-ups, as if the gods had decided to conspire against him.

Great article by Jeff Passan. Is it possible this will overshadow Tony LaRussa's genius if the Cardinals do not come back to win?

I think Aaron Boone and the rest of the ESPN shills are being absolute cowards in addressing LaRussa's mistakes so maybe he will survive with his "genius" intact. Only time will tell, but this article addresses questions that the ESPN baseball people refuse to recognize.

Personally, I have never seen a manager sidestep the responsibility for a mistake with more "me before team" passion. He blamed the noise. He blamed phone. Heck, he let Pujols take the blame for the first time Craig was thrown out. He never really said, "I screwed up."

I have felt for 40 years that Richard Nixon would have had a different place in history if he had recognized the big picture when dealing with the Watergate mess. He wanted to cover it up when he should have said, "Heck, we made a stupid mistake." The world would have respected the man much more if he had owned up to mistakes.

I feel the same about LaRussa.

Patrick Bateman
10-25-2011, 10:02 PM
1-12 doesn't happen all the time in the World Series. The Rangers walked 9 Cardinals hitters and had two errors on the night yet they managed to win. David Schoenfield said it best in his article last night on ESPN.com:



Yes it does.

The average in that situation would be about three hits. So for every time you go 5-12, a 1-12 will happen.

That's baseball. It can be random, it just happened on a bad day.

Managers don't bring in two guys by accident every other day.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 10:21 PM
Yes it does.

The average in that situation would be about three hits. So for every time you go 5-12, a 1-12 will happen.

That's baseball. It can be random, it just happened on a bad day.

Managers don't bring in two guys by accident every other day.

Not 1-12 with all those walks and errors though. Not in a World Series game. I may be wrong but I think you have to go back to the mid-90's to find a situation where a team went 1-12 with runners in scoring position along with that many walks and errors in a World Series game.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 10:24 PM
Personally, I have never seen a manager sidestep the responsibility for a mistake with more "me before team" passion. He blamed the noise. He blamed phone. Heck, he let Pujols take the blame for the first time Craig was thrown out. He never really said, "I screwed up."

It looks like he took blame for what happened in today's press conference:

“To the extent that what I wanted to have happen wasn’t happening [or] didn’t happen-- yeah, that’s my fault,” La Russa said “I don’t need to dodge that, ever. . . . You go and make a pitching change, [and] you’ve got the wrong guy coming out there, that’s not fun. Geez, that was embarrassing.”

The article goes on further:

He reiterated the notion that he had intended to have closer Jason Motte warming up alongside Rzepczynski, in order to be ready to face Napoli, but that half of the request was never heard by bullpen coach Derek Lilliquist — with La Russa suggesting (for the first time) that he spoke Motte’s name too late, after Lilliquist had hung up.

“He felt bad about it,” La Russa said of Lillquist, “but I said, ‘Hey, that’s my fault.’ ”

blumj
10-25-2011, 10:27 PM
Not 1-12 with all those walks and errors though. Not in a World Series game. I may be wrong but I think you have to go back to the mid-90's to find a situation where a team went 1-12 with runners in scoring position along with that many walks and errors in a World Series game.
Well, the WS is between 4-7 games a year, it's such a teeny-tiny sample size that it's easy to go 15+ years without a whole lot of things happening in a WS game that happen all the time during the regular season.

savafan
10-25-2011, 10:28 PM
He reiterated the notion that he had intended to have closer Jason Motte warming up alongside Rzepczynski, in order to be ready to face Napoli, but that half of the request was never heard by bullpen coach Derek Lilliquist — with La Russa suggesting (for the first time) that he spoke Motte’s name too late, after Lilliquist had hung up.



LOL, no, wait.

*dial tone*

"...and get Motte warmed up also. Lill? Lill? Hmm...I'm sure he knew what I wanted, no need to call back."

Spitball
10-25-2011, 10:31 PM
It looks like he took blame for what happened in today's press conference:

“To the extent that what I wanted to have happen wasn’t happening [or] didn’t happen-- yeah, that’s my fault,” La Russa said “I don’t need to dodge that, ever. . . . You go and make a pitching change, [and] you’ve got the wrong guy coming out there, that’s not fun. Geez, that was embarrassing.”

The article goes on further:

He reiterated the notion that he had intended to have closer Jason Motte warming up alongside Rzepczynski, in order to be ready to face Napoli, but that half of the request was never heard by bullpen coach Derek Lilliquist — with La Russa suggesting (for the first time) that he spoke Motte’s name too late, after Lilliquist had hung up.

“He felt bad about it,” La Russa said of Lillquist, “but I said, ‘Hey, that’s my fault.’ ”

But he says it is his fault while saying it is the fault of the phone, the noise, and whatever. I don't see why he can't admit those factors where not the real reason. They were not the real reasons. Lynn does not sound like Motte. The Jumbotron showed who was warming up. LaRussa surely screwed up and did not personally admit to an error in judgement.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 10:32 PM
gahh... I'm trying to post the link to the article that I got those quotes from. It is a Washington post article that now is not letting me view it anymore for some reason. Anyway, google it, there are several articles about TLR taking the blame for the shenanigans in game 5.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 10:37 PM
But he says it is his fault while saying it is the fault of the phone, the noise, and whatever. I don't see why he can't admit those factors where not the real reason. They were not the real reasons. Lynn does not sound like Motte. The Jumbotron showed who was warming up. LaRussa surely screwed up and did not personally admit to an error in judgement.

Well.. he admitted today that he was wrong so I don't know what more you want him to do. Do you want to have him come in the Reds Zone, get on his knees, and ask forgiveness to all the Cincinnati Reds fans? I know many hate him here but can't people just take him at his word when he says it was his mistake after a day to clear his head from the events? I guess he can go Merchant of Venice style and give you a pound of flesh to satisfy you here.

savafan
10-25-2011, 10:39 PM
Well.. he admitted today that he was wrong so I don't know what more you want him to do. Do you want to have him come in the Reds Zone, get on his knees, and ask forgiveness to all the Cincinnati Reds fans? I know many hate him here but can't people just take him at his word when he says it was his mistake after a day to clear his head from the events? I guess he can go Merchant of Venice style and give you a pound of flesh to satisfy you here.

The problem here is that his story keeps changing and it's just one excuse after another without him actually saying, look, I screwed up. I think that's what we all want to hear. Just the honest truth with no BS excuses to direct blame elsewhere.

Spitball
10-25-2011, 10:40 PM
gahh... I'm trying to post the link to the article that I got those quotes from. It is a Washington post article that now is not letting me view it anymore for some reason. Anyway, google it, there are several articles about TLR taking the blame for the shenanigans in game 5.

But is he saying, "I messed up" or is he saying, "I messed up because of the phones, or misunderstanding, or Pujols called for a hit and run"? There is a difference.

Spitball
10-25-2011, 10:47 PM
I guess he can go Merchant of Venice style and give you a pound of flesh to satisfy you here.

As it was used in the Merchant of Venice, it refered to an unreasonable payment for a debt. I don't think that works here. He just owes his team an honest public acceptance for his mistakes.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 10:56 PM
But is he saying, "I messed up" or is he saying, "I messed up because of the phones, or misunderstanding, or Pujols called for a hit and run"? There is a difference.

From what I have read, he is saying he messed up. Plain and simple.

Here is an article about him taking the blame today:

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/10/25/cards-skipper-la-russa-takes-blame-for-game-5-gaffes/

Spitball
10-25-2011, 11:01 PM
From what I have read, he is saying he messed up. Plain and simple.

No, he is not admitting to anything other than a problem with the noise and Pujols acting on his own. He needs to admit to a managerial error, but he will never ever do that.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 11:04 PM
No, he is not admitting to anything other than a problem with the noise and Pujols acting on his own. He needs to admit to a managerial error, but he will never ever do that.

So this is not him taking responsibility?

""When there's stuff that went on in that inning with the bullpen, and who's up and who's not, that's miscommunication. In the end that comes totally on the coach, or the manager."

"It's my fault for not handling it better and making sure. All I had to do was look in the bullpen, repeat to make sure."

Spitball
10-25-2011, 11:21 PM
So this is not him taking responsibility?

""When there's stuff that went on in that inning with the bullpen, and who's up and who's not, that's miscommunication. In the end that comes totally on the coach, or the manager."

"It's my fault for not handling it better and making sure. All I had to do was look in the bullpen, repeat to make sure."

I do not believe it was miscommunication. I believe he made an error in judgement because the excuses for the miscommunication are unbelieveable. He is not saying, "I made an error in judgement because I thought things would play out differently with the Murphy atbat. I, Tony LaRussa, made an strategical error."

Patrick Bateman
10-25-2011, 11:30 PM
Well, the WS is between 4-7 games a year, it's such a teeny-tiny sample size that it's easy to go 15+ years without a whole lot of things happening in a WS game that happen all the time during the regular season.

Right.It has nothing to do with world series.

Players dont have the option of selecting when they get their hits. This is about understanding how run scoring actually happens, and their is a major luck component to it. The Cards true talent level was not revealed when they scored 19,000 runs the night before. That wasn't clutch. The two different nights was just an illustration of how even a good offensive club such as the Cards can come up empty even in crucial situations.

It's a baseball thing.

Not a clutch thing.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 11:30 PM
I do not believe it was miscommunication. I believe he made an error in judgement because the excuses for the miscommunication are unbelieveable. He is not saying, "I made an error in judgement because I thought things would play out differently with the Murphy atbat. I, Tony LaRussa, made an strategical error."

Again, my statement of the Merchant of Venice isn't that far off. I think it would take a pound of flesh for some in here to be satisfied. If what he came out with today isn't enough for you to be satisfied, there is nothing I can say to change your mind.

Anyway, I'm over this issue. On with game six.

The Operator
10-25-2011, 11:31 PM
Yea, he's still blaming it on the bullpen phone and crowd noise. Essentially saying "yea, it's my fault, but it's more the fault of crowd noise and poor communication."

He'll never come right out and admit he made the wrong move and it burned him. No, he had every intention of making the right move, but he just wasn't allowed to because of crowd noise and miscommunication. Whatever, Tony.

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 11:39 PM
Right.It has nothing to do with world series.

Players dont have the option of selecting when they get their hits. This is about understanding how run scoring actually happens, and their is a major luck component to it. The Cards true talent level was not revealed when they scored 19,000 runs the night before. That wasn't clutch. The two different nights was just an illustration of how even a good offensive club such as the Cards can come up empty even in crucial situations.

It's a baseball thing.

Not a clutch thing.

Its not very smart hitting when a guy is wild and can't find the plate yet players swing away. Players swinging on the first pitch when the bases have men on isn't great situational hitting. All of those things were happening last night. Yes, some of it is luck but a lot of it has to do with taking a wrong approach and abandoning the things that have worked so well during the regular season/most of the playoffs.

Spitball
10-25-2011, 11:42 PM
Again, my statement of the Merchant of Venice isn't that far off. I think it would take a pound of flesh for some in here to be satisfied...

Grrr! This is totally an inappropriate. He is not being asked to give a pound of flesh. He is being asked to take honest responsibility for an error in judgement or an error in strategical processing. It is not about giving neither an ureasonable nor unfair confession. It is about admitting it was not the phone or the noise. Managers have been making pitching changes in that stadium since 1994.

mbgrayson
10-25-2011, 11:42 PM
From what I have read, he is saying he messed up. Plain and simple.

Here is an article about him taking the blame today:

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/10/25/cards-skipper-la-russa-takes-blame-for-game-5-gaffes/ (http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/10/25/cards-skipper-la-russa-takes-blame-for-game-5-gaffes/)

From that article:



But his rambling answers at Tuesday's off-day inquisition did little to clear up the baffling course of events.




Asked why he did not explain the blown hit-and-run after the game, La Russa said: "I treat the club like a family. I don't throw the family under the bus, my personal family. I don't throw this family under the bus. I'd rather take the hit."



Implication: It was someone else's fault, and I am such a great stand up guy that I won't say who and throw them under the bus. That's really taking responsibility.... I'm impressed. That's the kind of acceptance of responsibility that we all want our kids to learn.... ;)

MikeThierry
10-25-2011, 11:51 PM
Grrr! This is totally an inappropriate. He is not being asked to give a pound of flesh. He is being asked to take honest responsibility for an error in judgement or an error in strategical processing. It is not about giving neither an ureasonable nor unfair confession. It is about admitting it was not the phone or the noise. Managers have been making pitching changes in that stadium since 1994.

TLR is rightly or wrongly made out to be the devil incarnate here in this forum (honestly in many Cardinal forums as well) and it would not surprise me if it took a pound of flesh from LaRussa for some of the posters to be satisfied. That was my point. It wasn't mainly dealing with the issue we were talking about here but rather a whole set of long issues that posters have problems with him over. I know in St. Louis, there are some fans who still cannot forgive him and hate him for the Ozzie Smith situation some 16-17 years ago. Those people will never be satisfied and I get the sense that no matter what Tony LaRussa does, its going to be over analyzed and people are going to foam at the mouth over it in this forum as well as other forums. If TLR wears his sunglasses at night and takes them off, there is probably going to be people thinking there is some ulterior motive to him taking off his sun glasses. That is an exaggeration but you get my point.

VR
10-26-2011, 12:57 AM
I find it odd that there isn't more press on Carpenter's outburst at Napoli.

757690
10-26-2011, 01:16 AM
From what I have read, he is saying he messed up. Plain and simple.

Here is an article about him taking the blame today:

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/10/25/cards-skipper-la-russa-takes-blame-for-game-5-gaffes/

Taking responsibility for this would require LaRussa to not talk about the phones, or Pujols at all when talking to the press about what happened. He threw them under the bus, and then said he would take responsibility. It doesn't work that way.

In the post game interview, he literally in less than a minute said that Pujols called for the hit and run himself, and that he (LaRussa) would not have called for it, and then said he's not going to blame it on Pujols. The only problem is that he just did blame it on Pujols to the entire media with cameras rolling. He did the exact same thing with the bullpen incident.

That's not how you take responsibility, in fact, it's the exact opposite.

RedsManRick
10-26-2011, 01:41 AM
I find it odd that there isn't more press on Carpenter's outburst at Napoli.

Was it really at him? Maybe that's nitpicking, but from what I can see, it's a guy vocally celebrating the out -- just in a filthy way that shows a lack of respect. Appropriate? Maybe not. But it was the equivalent of a Ric Flair "Wooooo". It wasn't directly at Napoli as in calling him that to his face as an insult, but rather in that "I'm going to demean you to myself to make me feel powerful" bully kind of thing. Even then, we all do that kind of thing from time-to-time, usually at least partially in jest. "I'm going to kill you, you stupid spider." We're not actually insulting the spider's intelligence...

I can see it being a story because the guy lacks any class. But he's an athlete, don't we encourage that sort of thing in our culture? This isn't a ballet recital. Guys do stuff like that to pump themselves up.

remdog
10-26-2011, 01:43 AM
I find it odd that there isn't more press on Carpenter's outburst at Napoli.

Maybe it's because it's so normal for Chrissy when he's wearing his skirt. OTOH, Napoli handled it with class.

Rem

puca
10-26-2011, 07:39 AM
Maybe it's because it's so normal for Chrissy when he's wearing his skirt. OTOH, Napoli handled it with class.

Rem

I think the reason it is a non-topic is BECAUSE Napoli handled it with class. It didn't allow Carp or the Tony to get on their soapbox and play the innocent victim part.

Vottomatic
10-26-2011, 08:23 AM
TLR is rightly or wrongly made out to be the devil incarnate here in this forum (honestly in many Cardinal forums as well) and it would not surprise me if it took a pound of flesh from LaRussa for some of the posters to be satisfied. That was my point. It wasn't mainly dealing with the issue we were talking about here but rather a whole set of long issues that posters have problems with him over. I know in St. Louis, there are some fans who still cannot forgive him and hate him for the Ozzie Smith situation some 16-17 years ago. Those people will never be satisfied and I get the sense that no matter what Tony LaRussa does, its going to be over analyzed and people are going to foam at the mouth over it in this forum as well as other forums. If TLR wears his sunglasses at night and takes them off, there is probably going to be people thinking there is some ulterior motive to him taking off his sun glasses. That is an exaggeration but you get my point.

TLR isn't liked by the media or fans of mlb in general. He dug his grave with his childishness and game playing. Now he can lie in it.

VR
10-26-2011, 10:31 AM
Was it really at him? Maybe that's nitpicking, but from what I can see, it's a guy vocally celebrating the out -- just in a filthy way that shows a lack of respect. Appropriate? Maybe not. But it was the equivalent of a Ric Flair "Wooooo". It wasn't directly at Napoli as in calling him that to his face as an insult, but rather in that "I'm going to demean you to myself to make me feel powerful" bully kind of thing. Even then, we all do that kind of thing from time-to-time, usually at least partially in jest. "I'm going to kill you, you stupid spider." We're not actually insulting the spider's intelligence...

I can see it being a story because the guy lacks any class. But he's an athlete, don't we encourage that sort of thing in our culture? This isn't a ballet recital. Guys do stuff like that to pump themselves up.

How did Mike gain access to your account? :)

It's bush league either way, and yes....Napoli was ridiculously classy in his response.

Patrick Bateman
10-26-2011, 10:52 AM
Its not very smart hitting when a guy is wild and can't find the plate yet players swing away. Players swinging on the first pitch when the bases have men on isn't great situational hitting. All of those things were happening last night. Yes, some of it is luck but a lot of it has to do with taking a wrong approach and abandoning the things that have worked so well during the regular season/most of the playoffs.

The Rangers went 1-8 with RISP the night before.
It happens all the time.
Sometime good pitching beats good hitting.

The fact that every other team in the national league is eliminated and not the Cards, it's safe to assume that the Cards do it less than other teams. Good for them.

Reds Fanatic
10-26-2011, 12:46 PM
There is a very good chance game 6 will be rained out tonight. There is a bad forecast pretty much throughout tonight in St. Louis. So there is supposed to be a decision around 2PM on whether to just postpone the game.

signalhome
10-26-2011, 02:07 PM
Was it really at him? Maybe that's nitpicking, but from what I can see, it's a guy vocally celebrating the out -- just in a filthy way that shows a lack of respect. Appropriate? Maybe not. But it was the equivalent of a Ric Flair "Wooooo". It wasn't directly at Napoli as in calling him that to his face as an insult, but rather in that "I'm going to demean you to myself to make me feel powerful" bully kind of thing. Even then, we all do that kind of thing from time-to-time, usually at least partially in jest. "I'm going to kill you, you stupid spider." We're not actually insulting the spider's intelligence...

I can see it being a story because the guy lacks any class. But he's an athlete, don't we encourage that sort of thing in our culture? This isn't a ballet recital. Guys do stuff like that to pump themselves up.

I think it definitely appeared to be directed at Napoli. Watch this video (warning: NSFW language; uploader loudly vocalizes what Carpenter appears to be saying): Chris Carpenter reacts to fly out! By swearing up a storm! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Dnj-5KGe4) Carpenter is certainly looking in Napoli's general direction when he yells out the second sentence. I could be wrong, but it really does appear to me that Carpenter was directing that second exclamation, if not all of it, toward Napoli.

wlf WV
10-26-2011, 03:05 PM
There's a difference between competitiveness and what he seems to be.Why the name calling,childish.

I used to like Pujols,but I think TLR and Carpenter's personalities are rubbing off on him too.

Evil communications corrupt good manners.

The Operator
10-26-2011, 03:28 PM
Game 6 has been postponed until tomorrow due to rain. And Cardinals fans everywhere rejoice. This sucks.

Roy Tucker
10-26-2011, 04:43 PM
Game 6 has been postponed until tomorrow due to rain. And Cardinals fans everywhere rejoice. This sucks.

I wish they wouldn't postpone a game 4 1/2 hours before first pitch. I can understand a situation like a hurricane where you *know* its coming. But looking at the STL weather side, its 80% chance of rain but the radar makes it look like its moving out. Its the midwest where weather is always iffy and weather guys can be wrong.

I'm sure Fox has a lot to do with this.

Vottomatic
10-26-2011, 04:52 PM
I heard Fox got a call from Larussa and thought he said cancelled, but he actually said Motte.

CTA513
10-27-2011, 08:25 PM
early scoring tonight

Rangers go up 1-0, but fail to get a runner in from 3rd with 0 outs
Cardinals go up 2-1 after a 2 out 2 run homer by Berkman

savafan
10-27-2011, 08:50 PM
Punto nearly took out Carpenter with his bat.

savafan
10-27-2011, 09:11 PM
Has there been a worse World Series to have to watch if you're a Cardinal fan?

savafan
10-27-2011, 09:13 PM
MVNAPOLI

Matt700wlw
10-27-2011, 09:14 PM
Garcia's out already. I guess there's no problem hearing the conversations on the bullpen phones tonight...

Reds Fanatic
10-27-2011, 09:18 PM
Cards defense is falling apart

savafan
10-27-2011, 09:19 PM
Is Eddie Cicotte warming up in the Cards' bullpen right now?

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTgxOTU3ODQyNV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMTQ4NjYzNA@@._ V1._SX640_SY433_.jpg

blumj
10-27-2011, 09:25 PM
Has there been a worse World Series to have to watch if you're a Cardinal fan?

2004 probably wasn't a lot of fun for them, but this one's dragging on a lot longer.

The Operator
10-27-2011, 09:31 PM
Gee, ya think Holliday was trying to take out Andrus on that?

savafan
10-27-2011, 09:32 PM
Gee, ya think Holliday was trying to take out Andrus on that?

Clearly. The slide was late, though I guess it's legal, even though the slide was out of the baseline.

savafan
10-27-2011, 09:36 PM
The Cardinals are starting to resemble the "Pittsburgh Steelers of Baseball" in my mind. Well run organization with a storied history, but the guys on the field are punks.

Matt700wlw
10-27-2011, 09:37 PM
Clearly. The slide was late, though I guess it's legal, even though the slide was out of the baseline.

He's done it before.

The Operator
10-27-2011, 09:42 PM
Heh, Cards defense is really looking good tonight.

savafan
10-27-2011, 09:42 PM
Those pop-ups have been anything but routine tonight...

The Operator
10-27-2011, 09:43 PM
Rangers lead 4-3!

Looks like it's gonna be "one of those" games.

blumj
10-27-2011, 09:45 PM
Hard to be odder than the last game, but they're trying.

savafan
10-27-2011, 09:47 PM
Let's recap statements by Buck and McCarver during this series.

With the Cards up 1-0

"The Cardinals have never won a World Series game 1-0 in franchise history."

Rangers score.

"Mitch Moreland hit 16 homeruns during the regular season, but hasn't shown that pop in the postseason yet."

Moreland homers.

"There's a pop-up, but those have been anything but routine tonight."

Freese drops the ball.