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TRF
10-03-2011, 03:49 PM
Jose Reyes was the obvious candidate... in May. Now, not so much. I mean I'd love to get the guy, but he's going to ask for a LOT of money.

But, you are the GM. Who do you peg as next year's starting SS. You can look within the system, pending free agents or players rumored to be available via trade.

I think Cozart has shown enough to be penciled in, with Janish as the backup, BUT... The Reds have established that Toronto is a decent trading partner, one many think will step up to trade for Joey Votto. I'd go after Escobar. Not for Votto, but maybe a Daryl Thompson and Cozart deal. Escobar gets on base, has a little pop and should transition back to the NL fairly easily. He becomes the leadoff hitter we have been clamoring for. Adeiny Hechavarria will be at AAA in 2012, he's being fast tracked.

Dan
10-03-2011, 03:54 PM
Same trade I suggested in the get a pitcher thread. Votto, Stubbs and Bailey for Romero, Thames, and Escobar. YE has a career obp above .360 and strikes out only one in ten at bats. Would make an outstanding #2 hitter behind Phillips next year.

Homer Bailey
10-03-2011, 03:57 PM
Same trade I suggested in the get a pitcher thread. Votto, Stubbs and Bailey for Romero, Thames, and Escobar. YE has a career obp above .360 and strikes out only one in ten at bats. Would make an outstanding #2 hitter behind Phillips next year.

If the Reds trade Votto, let's all pray they get a lot more in return than this deal.

Any Votto trade with Toronto has to include Bautista.

RedsManRick
10-03-2011, 03:59 PM
I like Cozart as well, but am worried about his OBP. If the money were available, I'd target Clint Barmes. I'd also take a look at bringing in Marco Scutaro if the Sox don't pick up his option. Barmes would likely be my starter where as Scutaro would be backup unless Cozart bombed.

reds1869
10-03-2011, 04:10 PM
I am comfortable with Cozart as the starter but wouldn't pass up the opportunity to upgrade if the right trade came along.

lollipopcurve
10-03-2011, 04:24 PM
Cozart. He's shown well on offense and defense.

dougdirt
10-03-2011, 04:26 PM
I am comfortable with Cozart as the starter but wouldn't pass up the opportunity to upgrade if the right trade came along.

This.

I feel comfortable that Cozart can be league average for a shortstop offensively, maybe with more pop. Defensively, I think he will be slightly above average as well.

Superdude
10-03-2011, 04:34 PM
It's not worth the cost of upgrading beyond what Cozart's likely to do IMO. Overhaul the pitching, and then we can nitpick other positions.

Kc61
10-03-2011, 04:34 PM
Janish had a pretty terrible year. He had a lot of at bats, which hurt the club given his offensive numbers.

I like his defense and he plays hard, but I don't see him on the ballclub next year.

I would go with Cozart and a different backup.

If the Reds keep both Cairo and Francisco on the bench, they will have a glut at third base and will need a backup SS who plays other positions. Otherwise the 5-man bench will have trouble covering all the spots.

It should be interesting to see how they figure out the jigsaw puzzle.

But I'm fine with Cozart as the main guy.

osuceltic
10-03-2011, 04:43 PM
I like Cozart as well, but am worried about his OBP. If the money were available, I'd target Clint Barmes. I'd also take a look at bringing in Marco Scutaro if the Sox don't pick up his option. Barmes would likely be my starter where as Scutaro would be backup unless Cozart bombed.

I'll be surprised if Cozart ever becomes the player Scutaro is right now.

Cozart is like Heisey -- I suspect if either of them becomes a full-season starter, we will find ourselves looking around for replacements. Now, every team starts guys like this, but you better not start too many of them -- or for too long.

_Sir_Charles_
10-03-2011, 04:46 PM
Barmes would be an interesting target, but the way the market is right now for SS he'll probably get overpriced pretty quickly. Right now I'd stick with Cozart with Janish backing him up. But that was a pretty small sample we saw from Cozart. If Barmes can be had fairly cheaply, I'd be all for it.

Guacarock
10-03-2011, 04:54 PM
I'm comfortable giving the nod to Cozart, but hope we acquire someone like free-agent Jamey Carroll as a backup. Carroll can step forward as the SS if Cozart tanks, but otherwise can provide support at multiple positions, including 2B, 3B, LF and RF. Carroll would fill another role this team has been lacking -- a guy coming off the bench with a high OBP.

oneupper
10-03-2011, 04:58 PM
I'll be surprised if Cozart ever becomes the player Scutaro is right now.

Cozart is like Heisey -- I suspect if either of them becomes a full-season starter, we will find ourselves looking around for replacements. Now, every team starts guys like this, but you better not start too many of them -- or for too long.

Scutaro didn't get a starting job in the majors until he was 28. He racked up over 2400 ABs in AAA and was probably considered a borderline case.

Sometimes you just have to throw guys into the ring and see.

There aren't a lot of options for SS within budget. Furcal on a one-year deal perhaps? I don't particularly like that idea.

lollipopcurve
10-03-2011, 05:05 PM
Scutaro didn't get a starting job in the majors until he was 28. He racked up over 2400 ABs in AAA and was probably considered a borderline case.

Sometimes you just have to throw guys into the ring and see.

Absolutely. Cozart has hit close to 20 HRs in a AAA season and stolen 30 bases. With a good glove. If you're not going to give a kid like that a chance, you're probably looking at a big market roster-building strategy. And that isn't what the Reds can do.

RedsManRick
10-03-2011, 05:17 PM
I'll be surprised if Cozart ever becomes the player Scutaro is right now.

Cozart is like Heisey -- I suspect if either of them becomes a full-season starter, we will find ourselves looking around for replacements. Now, every team starts guys like this, but you better not start too many of them -- or for too long.

I had the Heisey comp in mind as well. The difference, of course, is that Cozart's bat plays much better at SS than Heisey's does in LF -- not that Heisey's bat is bad per se', just light on OBP.

I actually like Cozart quite a bit, I just wouldn't pass up a change to get somebody who is more of a sure thing at a reasonable cost.

WVRedsFan
10-03-2011, 05:30 PM
Free agent hopefully.

MikeS21
10-03-2011, 05:51 PM
Go with Cozart.

schroomytunes
10-03-2011, 06:25 PM
I'd give the nod to Cozart, but I would also go after Clint Barmes, he can play all over the infield and be able to help Cairo limit Rolen to 120 games. Thus allowing us to move Francisco in an offseason deal for pitching.

PuffyPig
10-03-2011, 08:18 PM
I'd go after Escobar. Not for Votto, but maybe a Daryl Thompson and Cozart deal.

Why would Toronto do this?

To get Thompson?

I doubt that Toronto would do Escobar for Cozart and any prospect of their choosing.

They might consider Cozart and Mess, but I doubt it.

mth123
10-03-2011, 09:05 PM
Cozart. He's an adequate bottom of the order option who will play plus defense and has demonstrated some potential for some power and some speed (two things that Paul Janish never showed in his minor league career). The Reds are not going to acquire a SS who can pitch at the top of the rotation or hit in the middle of the order. I'd save the salary money and the trade chips for those priorities.

I'd keep Frazier as my 25th man and let him get an occassional start or some innings in blow outs as Cozart's back-up. I'd keep a defensive minded option in AAA to be called up to play every day if Cozart goes down or needs a trip to AAA to get his bat going a bit. That is actually Paul Janish' best fate IMO, but he'd probably opt for free agency before going back down. Miguel Rojas is a better defernder and might fill the same purpose. By mid-season Didi Gregorious might be an option should Cozart play himself out of the role or suffer an injury. No resources expended here IMO unless something that can't be refused presents itself.

nemesis
10-04-2011, 09:14 AM
I would give Cozart the nod. Had a lot of time to sit on the bench and absorb in the Bigs.

Plus if you look at the Reds SS pickups since the Larkin era:

Aurillia
Lopez
Clayton
Gonzalez
Cabrera
Janish
Renteria

The Reds do not do well with 2nd tier options at SS.

CySeymour
10-04-2011, 09:52 AM
Cozart. He's shown well on offense and defense.

Agreed. I feel if they are going to spend money, let it be for a TOR pitcher or leadoff hitter.

Mario-Rijo
10-04-2011, 10:07 AM
Man would I love to get my hands on Asdrubal Cabrera (been saying that for a couple of years). But I am not so sure that is gonna happen. Short of that how about Erick Aybar, he isn't listed as a FA but by my count he should be, can anyone clarify that? If not how about a Grandal and Janish deal for him (they could use a catcher), move Cozart to 2B and deal Brandon to save money? Though I'd happily keep Brandon at this point and have Cozart as a backup at both positions.

Ok back to reality Barmes is a solid target.

osuceltic
10-04-2011, 11:09 AM
I had the Heisey comp in mind as well. The difference, of course, is that Cozart's bat plays much better at SS than Heisey's does in LF -- not that Heisey's bat is bad per se', just light on OBP.

I actually like Cozart quite a bit, I just wouldn't pass up a change to get somebody who is more of a sure thing at a reasonable cost.

That's where I am. If we can get an upgrade, we shouldn't let Cozart keep us from doing that.

Personally, I think our priorities should be something like: 1. starting pitcher; 2. left fielder; 3. starting pitcher; 4. starting pitcher; 5. shortstop.

Alonso, Stubbs, Heisey, Francisco, Cozart, Sappelt, Chapman, Mes, Grandal, Hannigan, Wood, Volquez ... any and all of these guys should be available to fill those needs.

TRF
10-04-2011, 11:55 AM
Why would Toronto do this?

To get Thompson?

I doubt that Toronto would do Escobar for Cozart and any prospect of their choosing.

They might consider Cozart and Mess, but I doubt it.

Yeah well it was my opening bid. :) Cozart, Thompson and Donnie Joseph. would be my next offer.

Toronto would probably say no, but frankly, he should have been a target of the Reds when Atlanta let it be known they were willing to deal him.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-04-2011, 01:17 PM
Do we even know that Cozart will be ready for opening day?

PuffyPig
10-04-2011, 01:59 PM
I would give Cozart the nod. Had a lot of time to sit on the bench and absorb in the Bigs.

Plus if you look at the Reds SS pickups since the Larkin era:

Aurillia
Lopez
Clayton
Gonzalez
Cabrera
Janish
Renteria

The Reds do not do well with 2nd tier options at SS.

Cozart would certainly be considered a 2nd tier option.

marcshoe
10-04-2011, 02:05 PM
Do we even know that Cozart will be ready for opening day?


MORE SURGERY: Shortstop Zack Cozart will have surgery next week on his right ankle, a clean-out procedure. Cozart already was out, after having Tommy John surgery Aug. 12 on his left elbow.

Cozart also is expected to be ready for spring training.

Cincinnati.com, September 12 (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110912/SPT04/110912027&Ref=AR')

_Sir_Charles_
10-04-2011, 02:06 PM
Do we even know that Cozart will be ready for opening day?

For SURE? No. But they said very clearly that he would be ready. But who knows, he could pull a muscle sneezing. :laugh:

marcshoe
10-04-2011, 02:09 PM
To me, this is low priority. Cozart certainly looked capable in his short debut, and there are other more pressing problems. Such as pitching. And pitching.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-04-2011, 03:02 PM
To me, this is low priority. Cozart certainly looked capable in his short debut, and there are other more pressing problems. Such as pitching. And pitching.

Agree. If Cozart is okay this is not an issue. For now.

Pitching please.

REDREAD
10-04-2011, 04:23 PM
Cozart is worth audtioning, but we need to bring in a capable backup. It's worth 2-3 million to bring in someone in case Cozart flops or has more health problems.
One a backup SS is secured, Janish should be removed from the 40 man roster. If we lose him, we lose him.

mth123
10-04-2011, 07:36 PM
Cozart is worth audtioning, but we need to bring in a capable backup. It's worth 2-3 million to bring in someone in case Cozart flops or has more health problems.
One a backup SS is secured, Janish should be removed from the 40 man roster. If we lose him, we lose him.

The problem is you won't get a capable back-up for $2 or $3 Million. You'll get Edgar Renteria and the like. Save the bucks for a pitcher. If the other priorities are filled (A pitcher or two and a third mid-order run producer), this spot could be a glove that never gets a hit and it wouldn't cause much of a problem.

dfs
10-05-2011, 12:02 AM
The job is Cozart's to lose.

I know I'm stubborn about it, but I give Todd Frazier every opportunity to take 12 innings a week at shortstop.

If they both fall on their heads.....I guess I put Janish in and hope for a miracle.

CesarGeronimo
10-05-2011, 12:31 AM
I'd go with Cozart, but I fear that he will hit #2 in the order, which he should not, particularly if Stubbs is at the top of the order again, which he should not be.

dfs
10-05-2011, 12:35 AM
I'd go with Cozart, but I fear that he will hit #2 in the order, which he should not, particularly if Stubbs is at the top of the order again, which he should not be.

If Dusty starts using Stubbs at the top of the order again when he has a healthy Brandon Phillips available, then Dusty needs replaced. Phillips can be a very good leadoff hitter. BP has no business in the middle of the order. Certainly not against right handed pitching and there is a LOT of right handed pitching out there.

nemesis
10-05-2011, 02:02 AM
Cozart would certainly be considered a 2nd tier option.

While he may not be Jeter or Furcal in their prime, but I wouldn't call the kid 2nd tier. As a matter of fact, if he could come close to his AAA numbers last year he'd be in the top 5 of SS's in baseball in WAR.

Scrap Irony
10-05-2011, 10:30 AM
The job is Cozart's to lose.

I know I'm stubborn about it, but I give Todd Frazier every opportunity to take 12 innings a week at shortstop.

If they both fall on their heads.....I guess I put Janish in and hope for a miracle.

I lean toward this as well, though I'd love to grab another young SS and have a competition between Sappelt and whomever was dealt for.

mdccclxix
10-10-2011, 05:10 PM
Been thinking about this today,

Chapman + Mesoraco + Cozart for Hanley Ramirez.

Hanley's come off his worst year yet, the perfect time to pick him up. He's going to rebound. Players that do what he's done simply do not disappear at the age of 28. It's all been injury related.

The excitement around Chapman could diminish the loss of excitement that Hanley brings in Miami. Add to that the acquisition of the top C prospect in baseball and Miami fans have almost forgot Hanley was ever there. :)

Phillips
Bruce
Hanley
Votto
Rolen/Francisco
Alonso/Heisey
Heisey/Stubbs
Hernanigan
P

That's my plan at SS. :beerme:

Redhook
10-10-2011, 08:48 PM
Been thinking about this today,

Chapman + Mesoraco + Cozart for Hanley Ramirez.

Hanley's come off his worst year yet, the perfect time to pick him up. He's going to rebound. Players that do what he's done simply do not disappear at the age of 28. It's all been injury related.

The excitement around Chapman could diminish the loss of excitement that Hanley brings in Miami. Add to that the acquisition of the top C prospect in baseball and Miami fans have almost forgot Hanley was ever there. :)

Phillips
Bruce
Hanley
Votto
Rolen/Francisco
Alonso/Heisey
Heisey/Stubbs
Hernanigan
P

That's my plan at SS. :beerme:

It does make the lineup look a whole lot better!

I like your idea for the trade, but I'd like to add a twist to it. How about trading someone else instead of Cozart? I'm not exactly sure who, but wouldn't it be nice to move HanRam to 3B when Rolen crumbles and keep Cozart for SS? Long-term, HanRam could possibly play 3B or LF maybe. Either way, it'd be nice to have him on the team.

Spitball
10-10-2011, 10:55 PM
Short of that how about Erick Aybar, he isn't listed as a FA but by my count he should be, can anyone clarify that?

He doesn't hit free agency until after the 2012 season.


If not how about a Grandal and Janish deal for him (they could use a catcher), move Cozart to 2B and deal Brandon to save money?

I can't see the Angels going for that deal. Hank Conger is their catcher of the future.