lets talk Votto and his suitors

[lidspinner]

lets pretend the Cardinals keep Albert and lets say the cubbies get Prince....who is left that would want Votto for what he is worth....he is worth every cent that Prince gets and I think he is worth as much as Albert being that Albert is on the back side of his career.....so who can afford Votto and would they be interested in getting him a few years sooner? Just asking

Yankees? Nope, tex is at first

Red Sox? Nope Adrian at first

Angles? not sure how high they are on Navarro but he is young and cheap so maybe they want to keep him at 1st...not sure, what say you all? Russel Branyon is not playing over votto so he is not even in play here...its Navarro or Joey that we are discussing..

Baltimore? they really dont have much at first and they have a young club so they might want to look this way seeing as they spend money just when you think they will not....

Detroit? no way, Cabrera has got that on lock down...unless they decide to DH Cabrera and let Votto play 1st....small chance

Texas? they have to many 1st base/DH guys right now anyhow and they are good at those jobs...not to mention Hamilton is getting long in the tooth and might want to start DH'ing some to keep healthy..

Philly? nope, Ryan Howard says no thanks Joey

Diamonbacks? I think they are hoping that Goldsmidt(sp?) is their guy but they could be possible suitors for Joey....average shot but would they spend the money?

Giants? Brett Pill and Brandon Belt might have that spot for 2012 but Joey would sure sell well to their fanbase...not sure they would spend the money either but they have proven in the past that they will buy if they need to..

Dodgers? I think Loney has that spot locked down as well but new ownership sometimes means new faces and a new overall look so nothing is a given with the Dodgers until we get a owner....would they pay for Votto? Hell Yes

Rockies? Helton is getting older and they know Joey would flourish in that thin air....only question is would they spend the money on Joey...they already have some good money tied up in other spots and they need some pitching as Millwood is old and their young guys just did not produce like they thought...sort of like our pitching did not advance from 2010 to 2011 like we wanted and needed.....

Padres? I think Guzman has 1st locked up, he is young and he produced some this year...he is on the cheap and they control him for a few more years i believe....I just dont think Votto makes sense for the Padres...


So it looks to me like the only real suitors would be the Angels, Baltimore, D-Backs, Giants,Dodgers and Rockies......and out of those teams I really see the only ones really being able to afford Joey and truly sign him as the face of their franchise is the Giants and Dodgers and both those teams have some other question marks that need to be addressed on the pitching side of the game....

So while we all know Joey is going to get big money and he deserves it, but I just dont see that many teams that are going to be screaming to get him...at least not right now...anything can happen in 2 years.....Tex or Adrian could get hurt and then Joey would be a shoe in for one of those teams.....Do you guys think this gives us any leverage in keeping Votto with us? Are there any teams that i missed that could or would take Joey considering money and depth chart?

[brm7675]

Never count out the Yankees...

[Vottomatic]

You left out the Blue Jays. Joey's home country, and I think hometown.

Adam Lind currently plays 1B. But he came up and played LF for several years before moving to 1B. The Blue Jays have Bautista, Travis Snider, and Colby Rasmus for the outfield. Snider has been chronically injured for the couple of seasons he's come up, and not put up very good numbers. Rasmus struggled mightily after coming to the Jays, batting less than .200 in 30-some games.

Blue Jays could acquire Votto, and move Lind back to LF to strengthen their outfield.

[brm7675]

Problem with the Blue Jays are the taxes. Players don't like playing there because they get hammered on their contracts via the country taxes. Now not saying that won't keep him from going there, but also there is ALOT of presure playing in front of the home crowd. I would say they might be a second group of teams with a shot. If the Cards would say lose Albert, which I doubt, how bad would it be to see Joey in a Cards uniform?

[mroby85]

Problem with the Blue Jays are the taxes. Players don't like playing there because they get hammered on their contracts via the country taxes. Now not saying that won't keep him from going there, but also there is ALOT of presure playing in front of the home crowd. I would say they might be a second group of teams with a shot. If the Cards would say lose Albert, which I doubt, how bad would it be to see Joey in a Cards uniform?

If he leaves, I would love if he went there. It would be nice to be a fan of a team that does things the right way with a knowledgeable fan base. They always say there is a thin line between love and hate lol.

[Nathan]

Uhh.. You listed all of 12 teams. That's like barely 40% which is why you have such few suitors for the Votto market. If you are going to give a rundown, list all the potential teams that may have an interest and then state why they are (or aren't) really in the market for a 1B.

[lidspinner]

Nathan. Most other teams can not or will not afford Joey. I am not gonna list the Pirates when I know there is simply no chance he goes there. I could list the Athletics if you want, but I'm assuming most knowledgeable baseball fans know that the A's are out of the votto sweepstakes before Votto even is available. I only listed teams that make sense. Toronto is one team I left out. If you have other teams Nathan, please by all means list them and let's discuss.

[Tuff Nut]

Well, if your looking for a 'money' team, that could fork over the cash, ala the Yankees or Red Sox......you made one huge ommision........the Chicago Cubs. They have the cash, and if, as you are impling, Albert and Prince are gone, then there is your 'money' team.

[Redsfansince72]

per mlbtraderumors:

Rival executives are getting signals that the Reds won't shop Joey Votto, but the club is fully prepared to listen to offers this winter, tweets Buster Olney of ESPN.com.

[texasdave]

per mlbtraderumors:
Rival executives are getting signals that the Reds won't shop Joey Votto, but the club is fully prepared to listen to offers this winter, tweets Buster Olney of ESPN.com.

No matter where you go in life people love to play their little word games. There is absolutely no difference between shopping someone and letting people know that someone is available. LOL.

I suppose they want to be able to look Votto in the eye, lie to him and say they never tried to trade him.

I think Joey is way too intelligent for that. That type of thinking stopped working in junior high.

Reds mismanagement. The fun never ends with this crew.

[The DARK]

The Giants are a pretty likely suitor. They've been hurting on offense for a few years now and Joey would be a huge upgrade for next few seasons. With all of their pitching prospects and rotation options, they have the flexibility to go for it and pay heavily if they want.

Still, I foresee a team having to massively overpay to get Joey. He's proven himself to be one of the best players in all of baseball, and Jocketty isn't one to let undervalue a guy like him. When you factor in the fact that having Pujols and Fielder on the market makes Votto likely to recieve a lower offer and the salary leaders are pretty well set... I don't see Votto going anywhere anytime soon.

And why let him go? No matter how good Alonso is, no one in this organization is good enough to force Joey out. Not even close. Besides, our offense isn't nearly good enough to function effectively without him.

[Redsfansince72]

this was just also posted on mlbtraderumors

Earlier today we heard that the Reds are expected to listen to offers for Joey Votto, and Joe Capozzi of The Palm Beach Post thinks the Marlins may kick the tires (Twitter link). The Fish are expected to make a splash before moving into their new stadium, and Votto would certainly qualify.

[krm1580]

The Marlins system is surprisingly weak so unless they are putting Stanton in a deal I can't see how they would have enough to get the job done.

Thinking creatively, a team I think would have the money to lock Joey Votto up long term, has a need at first and has some really good trading chips would be the Nationals. Realistically they are not offering up Harper or Strausburg, but they could make a pretty good offer with Rendon and Purke to start.

[FireDusty]

In 1972 some Reds fans said that Bob Howsam was an absolute idiot for trading away Lee May & Tommy Helms for some short little guy from Houston ,no-name starting pitcher, and a no name minor leaguer.

The short guys name? Hall of Famer Joe Morgan. The no-name starter? 2 time 19 game winner and world series bad ass Jack Billingham. The no name minor leaguer? Cesar Geronimo.

Trading May opened up first base for a guy that could hit, but hadn't been able to play good enough defense elsewhere. That guys name? Hall of Famer Tony Perez. Don't we have a guy that can rake and needs a position?

We have no chance to sign Joey Votto. None.

His value is as high as it will ever be right now.

[Kingspoint]

Yankees are old. They will make an attempt.

Baltimore could make a great splash.

Toronto would be the natural fit.

[Nathan]

The Marlins system is surprisingly weak so unless they are putting Stanton in a deal I can't see how they would have enough to get the job done.

Thinking creatively, a team I think would have the money to lock Joey Votto up long term, has a need at first and has some really good trading chips would be the Nationals. Realistically they are not offering up Harper or Strausburg, but they could make a pretty good offer with Rendon and Purke to start.

Rendon and Purke cannot be traded this offseason because MLB has some very stupid rules like teams can't trade draft picks until a year after they sign their first contract. Stupid, huh? (That's why Pomeranz had to be a PTBNL when Cleveland traded for Jiminez.) I'm pretty sure there's a time limit for PTBNL.

[Krawhitham]

How many teams can afford 22-27 million for a 1st baseman?

Votto will need a 7th team to be willing

Ryan Howard, Miguel Cabrera, Mark Teixeira, Adrian Gonzalez, Albert Pujols and Prince Fielder all have contracts or soon will have contracts

The Toronto Blue Jays payroll was 10 million lower than the Reds this season so they are OUT

The Cards have 75 million locked up (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t_WBl5PYQPvrO7eNWGf0Vqg&output=html) next season for just 10 players, can they really afford Pujols or any other single player for 22-27 million

They resign Pujols they will have spent at least 100 million and still need 14 players. The average player salary in 2010 was 3,014,572. If they resign Pujols they are looking at a payroll of 142 million, that would be a 30% increase from 2011. How is that doable?

[Krawhitham]

I'm pretty sure there's a time limit for PTBNL.


6 months

[Billy Hamilton's Legs]

I don't think it should be done. but how would people feel about joey votto for james shields? And maybe Bj Upton? and we send back someone like Heisey or Sappelt?

[Old NDN]

The Reds have a sure thing in Votto for the next two years. Alonso still hasn't shown he could fill that void, IMO. Build around Votto and go for it these next couple of years.

[Vottomatic]

The Reds have a sure thing in Votto for the next two years. Alonso still hasn't shown he could fill that void, IMO. Build around Votto and go for it these next couple of years.

You know........I'm all for this idea. But I think they have to increase payroll to get it done, and I just don't see them increasing it.

I always assume the Reds are small market and have to fit everyone into an $80M payroll and catch some luck along the way. Otherwise, they have to trade players like Votto for quality pitching and keep rolling over players to fit into their small payroll system, until they find the right combo.

[texasdave]

The Reds have a sure thing in Votto for the next two years. Alonso still hasn't shown he could fill that void, IMO. Build around Votto and go for it these next couple of years.

Let's hope they go for it a little stronger in 2012 than they did in 2011. One silver lining is that Walt Jocketty should be well-rested.

[nate1213]

I believe the best suitors for us are Arizona, Seattle, and Toronto. Each have good young pitching that we could trade for. I would take Bauer, Parker, and anything else from Arizona. Both are projected to be aces. Seattle would be Pineda, League, and Walker. And Toronto would be Romero, Alvarez, and one of their top position prospects.

[Krawhitham]

I believe the best suitors for us are Arizona, Seattle, and Toronto. Each have good young pitching that we could trade for. I would take Bauer, Parker, and anything else from Arizona. Both are projected to be aces. Seattle would be Pineda, League, and Walker. And Toronto would be Romero, Alvarez, and one of their top position prospects.

Arizona does not want Votto

Arizona had a payroll of 56,489,833 this season, they do not have the money for Votto

Plus they have Paul Goldschmidt, he has hit 72 HR over the last two years (65 in the minors, while hitting .311)

[Krawhitham]

You can not trade Votto and then give Phillip 13 million and Coco 9 million

Both are on the back side of their careers and Votto is still on the raise

a 2nd baseman is easier to replace than a MVP

If we lose Votto in 2 years we have Neftali Soto who can step in, he hit 30 HR in AA this season (only 379 AB too)

[lidspinner]

all your responses prove my theory that Joey Votto is a lifetime Red....kind of why I started this thread.....Joey deserves every last cent he will get and then some....but the simple fact remains that your only worth what someone will pay you.....Joey might be worth as much or more than Prince, but someone has to pay that, and if you go down the list of potential suitors, I just dont see anyone giving him that much...not even the Reds....Does he take less to go to a proven winner? ok then, who is that proven winner with the low to mid range payroll? I dont think there is a clear cut better team than the Reds for Joey to go to.......I think we pay him good money and continue to build around him.......Hopefully the Reds brass can foresee this as well and start to build this team around Joey and go get us some help....its there, we just need to build it this off season....

Now, this is all taken in hopes that none of the top 1st baseman in the game have a serious career ending injury, in that case, Joey goes there in a heartbeat.....if Tex or Adrian goes down then Joey will fill that spot....Joey is the next big thing in MLB, its just a matter of who he plays for...and I think that team is us, I see him signing a 5 year deal and giving us a small break in salary. might be his only choice, or should I say best choice.....lots of things can happen between now and then but the stars are linning up just right for us to keep Joey.......but if that happens, what do we do with Yonder, thats another thread

[nate1213]

Arizona does not want Votto

Arizona had a payroll of 56,489,833 this season, they do not have the money for Votto

Plus they have Paul Goldschmidt, he has hit 72 HR over the last two years (65 in the minors, while hitting .311)

Because home runs in the minors predict your success in the majors. If the Diamondbacks want to create a culture of success, they would take two years of Votto.

[webbbj]

yanks or sox can make room for votto w/ the DH available to them.

[lidspinner]

yanks or sox can make room for votto w/ the DH available to them.

not saying your wrong but I would bet Ortiz and an aging Jeter and ARod would have something to say about the DH spots in those cities...

[bounty37h]

I don't think it should be done. but how would people feel about joey votto for james shields? And maybe Bj Upton? and we send back someone like Heisey or Sappelt?

Hope they include lube in that trade then, cause we would need it.

[dMaus14]

Ortiz will sign a 2-year deal this offseason and then the DH spot will be open. Doubt Jeter and A-Rod will both take that job! Just saying

[freestyle55]

Ortiz will sign a 2-year deal this offseason and then the DH spot will be open. Doubt Jeter and A-Rod will both take that job! Just saying

No, but Jesus Montero most likely will on the 50%+ days he's not catching...

[Old NDN]

Interesting that none of the other MLB team executives have disclosed the Reds are "entertaining offers" on Votto. Who's the sources for Olney and Rosenthal's assertions? Come on boys, you should be able to back up your claims with facts before you make such statements, IMO.

[dMaus14]

The reason I am nervous about keeping Joey Votto isn't the fact that he could possibly take up 30% of the payroll but what if we give him 7 years $160 million and say his last three years are not as productive then 30% of our payroll can't be moved and straps us to make improvements other than moving good players for younger players, which more likely than not won't promote winning either. I personally feel like we can win right now without Votto and can win down the line as well.

I mean we don't need to replace Votto as bad as some might think especially when teams are pitching around him anyways.

Total Runs: 735
C: 60
1B: 101
2B: 94
3B: 94 (between 5 different guys)
SS: 67 (Janish and Rentaria crossed home plate once every 2.4 games)
LF: 95 (between 5 different guys)
CF: 106 (Stubbs with 92)
RF: 84

I think that if you trade Votto and replace the low spots (SS, 3B and LF to go along with arms) you are competing year in and year out. Also saving money in the process for a deadline acquisition that we are so mad that Walt didn't make because we had the money at the deadline to welcome Hunter Pence in right?

I'd go after the Marlins, Angels, BlueJays, Athletics with all of them need a legit middle of the order hitter. And if we keep Votto then get rid of Alonso. We cannot keep them both

[Vottomatic]

The reason I am nervous about keeping Joey Votto isn't the fact that he could possibly take up 30% of the payroll but what if we give him 7 years $160 million and say his last three years are not as productive then 30% of our payroll can't be moved and straps us to make improvements other than moving good players for younger players, which more likely than not won't promote winning either. I personally feel like we can win right now without Votto and can win down the line as well.

I mean we don't need to replace Votto as bad as some might think especially when teams are pitching around him anyways.

Total Runs: 735
C: 60
1B: 101
2B: 94
3B: 94 (between 5 different guys)
SS: 67 (Janish and Rentaria crossed home plate once every 2.4 games)
LF: 95 (between 5 different guys)
CF: 106 (Stubbs with 92)
RF: 84

I think that if you trade Votto and replace the low spots (SS, 3B and LF to go along with arms) you are competing year in and year out. Also saving money in the process for a deadline acquisition that we are so mad that Walt didn't make because we had the money at the deadline to welcome Hunter Pence in right?

I'd go after the Marlins, Angels, BlueJays, Athletics with all of them need a legit middle of the order hitter. And if we keep Votto then get rid of Alonso. We cannot keep them both

I think Votto is the key to obtaining good starting pitching. If the Reds could get a Herschel Walker-type haul, they'd be stupid not to trade him, considering Alonso can play first base.

[texasdave]

Of course Walt Van Vinkle isn't entertaining offers for Joey Votto. He wouldn't even entertain offers for Ramon Freakin' Hernandez. If people start making offers you have to some actual research and make some calls. A person could easily miss their 9-3 nap. And that is not happening on Walt's watch.



Jocketty wasn't even willing to listen to offers for him, under the assumption no team would offer enough. In August, Hernandez was claimed off waivers but Jocketty again chose not to make a deal.

[texasdave]

Alex Gonzalez for Kris Negron.
Adam Rosales and Willy Taveras for Aaron Miles and PTBNL.
Chris Dickerson for Jim Edmonds.
PTBNL or Cash for Willie Bloomquist.
Jonny Gomes and Cash for Bill Rhinehart and Chris Manno.

I don't think I missed any blockbusters. There have been quite a few. Trades made by Walt Jocketty in the past 26 months.

Trades?!??! We don't need no stinkin' trades ??!!?

Walt is standing pat, people.

[Krawhitham]

Because home runs in the minors predict your success in the majors. If the Diamondbacks want to create a culture of success, they would take two years of Votto.

You hit 65 HR in 2 years while batting .311 at age 23, YEAH that will predict success in the majors

[brm7675]

Votto is going no where via trade, if he leaves it will be due to some team offereing him AROD stupid type money, if the deal is between 18-24 per year for say 5-6 years the Reds will resign him.

[Helms1]

Keep Votto, trade Dusty. PLEASE.

[jwmann2]

Don't know if you all have seen this or not but Walt Jocketty killed all rumors that they are shopping Votto. He is under contract until after the 2013 season.

[dMaus14]

And Nick Saban wasn't going to Alabama. Brian Kelley never wanted to coach anywhere but Cincinnati.

[Vottomatic]

Don't know if you all have seen this or not but Walt Jocketty killed all rumors that they are shopping Votto. He is under contract until after the 2013 season.

There you have it. :lol::laugh:

[texasdave]

Don't know if you all have seen this or not but Walt Jocketty killed all rumors that they are shopping Votto. He is under contract until after the 2013 season.

Looking at Walt's track record with the Reds, he isn't shopping anybody.

[Vottomatic]

I think they meant to say Walt went shopping at Kohl's with Joey Votto, not that he was shopping Joey Votto.

[Old NDN]

Of course Walt Van Vinkle isn't entertaining offers for Joey Votto. He wouldn't even entertain offers for Ramon Freakin' Hernandez. If people start making offers you have to some actual research and make some calls. A person could easily miss their 9-3 nap. And that is not happening on Walt's watch.

Outstanding! I love the Van Winkle quip. But seriously, has Walt lost his mojo? Maybe he can't relate to this younger generation of GMs. His past reputation of "getting things done" sure hasn't seemed to have followed him here.

[dMaus14]

I've read on hear that people want to trade for James Shields but what about both Gavin Floyd and John Danks from CWS? Floyd is under control until 2013 and Danks is 3rd arbitration this offseason. I think we would be able to sign them to extensions because the 2013 SP free agents look pretty good unlike this year. They both had better WAR than ANY of our pitchers and both pitched in a hitter's friendly ballpark. Chicago had the 27th best farm system according to Baseball America so they could be looking for a bunch of prospects not necessarily elite prospects. By doing this trade you had two better arms to our rotation than we have and can keep Chapman in the pen where I personally think he belongs. I think any package will begins with Grandel, H. Rodriguez, Volquez and possibly Wood. but if we get them our rotation could look like;

Cueto
Floyd
Danks
Arroyo
Leake, Bailey

I would also kick the tires on Kazmir as a similar signing as Willis this past year.

[Tuff Nut]

Watching the WS, and it started to make me wonder. Is Michael Young still wanting out of Texas?...Well, he can play 3B, and is playing 1B....Alonso and change for Young, anyone??

[R_Webb18]

Watching the WS, and it started to make me wonder. Is Michael Young still wanting out of Texas?...Well, he can play 3B, and is playing 1B....Alonso and change for Young, anyone??

thnk he cost a lot

[jwmann2]

lets pretend the Cardinals keep Albert and lets say the cubbies get Prince....who is left that would want Votto for what he is worth....he is worth every cent that Prince gets and I think he is worth as much as Albert being that Albert is on the back side of his career.....so who can afford Votto and would they be interested in getting him a few years sooner? Just asking

Yankees? Nope, tex is at first

Red Sox? Nope Adrian at first

Angles? not sure how high they are on Navarro but he is young and cheap so maybe they want to keep him at 1st...not sure, what say you all? Russel Branyon is not playing over votto so he is not even in play here...its Navarro or Joey that we are discussing..

Baltimore? they really dont have much at first and they have a young club so they might want to look this way seeing as they spend money just when you think they will not....

Detroit? no way, Cabrera has got that on lock down...unless they decide to DH Cabrera and let Votto play 1st....small chance

Texas? they have to many 1st base/DH guys right now anyhow and they are good at those jobs...not to mention Hamilton is getting long in the tooth and might want to start DH'ing some to keep healthy..

Philly? nope, Ryan Howard says no thanks Joey

Diamonbacks? I think they are hoping that Goldsmidt(sp?) is their guy but they could be possible suitors for Joey....average shot but would they spend the money?

Giants? Brett Pill and Brandon Belt might have that spot for 2012 but Joey would sure sell well to their fanbase...not sure they would spend the money either but they have proven in the past that they will buy if they need to..

Dodgers? I think Loney has that spot locked down as well but new ownership sometimes means new faces and a new overall look so nothing is a given with the Dodgers until we get a owner....would they pay for Votto? Hell Yes

Rockies? Helton is getting older and they know Joey would flourish in that thin air....only question is would they spend the money on Joey...they already have some good money tied up in other spots and they need some pitching as Millwood is old and their young guys just did not produce like they thought...sort of like our pitching did not advance from 2010 to 2011 like we wanted and needed.....

Padres? I think Guzman has 1st locked up, he is young and he produced some this year...he is on the cheap and they control him for a few more years i believe....I just dont think Votto makes sense for the Padres...


So it looks to me like the only real suitors would be the Angels, Baltimore, D-Backs, Giants,Dodgers and Rockies......and out of those teams I really see the only ones really being able to afford Joey and truly sign him as the face of their franchise is the Giants and Dodgers and both those teams have some other question marks that need to be addressed on the pitching side of the game....

So while we all know Joey is going to get big money and he deserves it, but I just dont see that many teams that are going to be screaming to get him...at least not right now...anything can happen in 2 years.....Tex or Adrian could get hurt and then Joey would be a shoe in for one of those teams.....Do you guys think this gives us any leverage in keeping Votto with us? Are there any teams that i missed that could or would take Joey considering money and depth chart?

You're speculating and making up the minds of organizations you are unfamiliar with. You don't know what everyone else is thinking. There are 30 teams in this league and hundreds of front office people within that organization. Go watch Moneyball. You'll see how crazy some of these guys talk and how many deals fall through. Besides, didn't Jocketty already say that Votto is in Cincy thru 2013?

[lidspinner]

You're speculating and making up the minds of organizations you are unfamiliar with. You don't know what everyone else is thinking. There are 30 teams in this league and hundreds of front office people within that organization. Go watch Moneyball. You'll see how crazy some of these guys talk and how many deals fall through. Besides, didn't Jocketty already say that Votto is in Cincy thru 2013?


isnt that what we do on message boards? if all we did was talk about facts then it would get boring....not one person here knows what the teams front office is thinking, we are here to talk, err, type about it...

the fact still remains that only a handful of teams are going to be in the market for Joey Votto....you can scratch a good number of teams off the list just from salary demands alone....scratch another few off the list due to the fact that they have stud 1st basemen already on their roster for the foreseeable future.....that leaves a group of teams and its nice to be able to guess which group of teams that is....it gives us something to discuss while our team is sitting at home and not in the Series like we should be right now. Lets face it, we could get a kings ransom for Votto if he was being shopped...it is something this team's front office is going to have to decide in the near future, as much as we want him to retire a Red, and he still might, but the FO needs to look into the possibility of moving Joey for some sure fire talent....

EDIT: you refer to moneyball the movie in regards to all the deals that fall through, yet then assume that Walt is telling us the truth when he says that Joey is here till 2013....you cannot believe anything a GM says to the media, bottom line. and I do agree there are a ton of deals that fall through each year that we never hear about...but I am not sure how many of those deals involve a MVP player with the upside of Joey....just saying.

[mroby85]

I can think of a team that has a stud first baseman who would be out of the running because they already have one.. oh wait thats the Reds.

[dMaus14]

Back to the Blue Jays - their owner said they can see them having $100 million payroll in the next couple of years!

Reds get:
Escobar - signed through 2013 ($5 mil per) with club options in 2014 and 2015
Morrow - final arbitration year
McGuire - 6 years of control
Drabek - 4 years of control

Blue Jays get:
Votto
Wood
Masset

Why this is good: The reds farm system is loaded with position prospects and lacking in pitching prospects like Drabek and McGuire. Reds save money not in the sense of actual money but you get a good roatation arm in Morrow (WAR = 3.4), Escobar (WAR = 4.3) for 4 years and $2 million payroll room all for the price of Votto. That leaves money to play with at SP, LF, and possibly another bullpen arm.

[mroby85]

Back to the Blue Jays - their owner said they can see them having $100 million payroll in the next couple of years!

Reds get:
Escobar - signed through 2013 ($5 mil per) with club options in 2014 and 2015
Morrow - final arbitration year
McGuire - 6 years of control
Drabek - 4 years of control

Blue Jays get:
Votto
Wood
Masset

Why this is good: The reds farm system is loaded with position prospects and lacking in pitching prospects like Drabek and McGuire. Reds save money not in the sense of actual money but you get a good roatation arm in Morrow (WAR = 3.4), Escobar (WAR = 4.3) for 4 years and $2 million payroll room all for the price of Votto. That leaves money to play with at SP, LF, and possibly another bullpen arm.

Why is this good: Because you're a Blue Jays fan and the Reds are being trade raped in this scenario lol.

[dMaus14]

First off, I meant to take out Wood when I added Masset. Also, I would add another prospect to the Blue Jays side but not sure who. I look back to the Halladay trade where he was in his final year of his contract and the Blue Jays got 3 prospects out of the deal. Then you look at the Teixeira deal when he was traded at the deadline and Texas got 4 prospects out of the deal (Andrus, Feliz, Saltallamacchia, and some other guy) which was a build for the future move. Now you look at Votto and the Reds: They have several very good pieces and several crappy pieces. The holes that we need to fill are SS, LF, SP and RP (CL). I am talking about trading a guy who has averaged a 6.8 WAR over the past 3 years and who, let's be honest, has no vision of wearing a Reds uniform after 2013, for a SS who ranks 5th in WAR over the past 3 years, an arm who is more established than Volquez, Wood, Bailey. Then you also build for the future with 2 projectable TOR guys that at the least could be work horses.

Look if it takes another year to build for what the Rangers are doing I am down for it but I can't stand watching a glued together rotation, a non-hitting youngster and an over the hill former all star duke it out at SS, not to mention a guy who can really hit but isn't good defensively (ie. Adam Dunn) thrown out in to left. The main problem with the Reds is they never allow for payroll flexibility. Which is probably why we didn't get Pence because we couldn't add another $7 million on to our payroll. So yes let's sign Votto to $23 mil a year for seven years and take up almost a 1/3 of our payroll and and Bruce is signed through 2016(?) with the last couple of years being in the $12 million range so now $36 million of our projected $90 million dollar payroll is used up on 2 players and none on pitching. Then if we extend Cueto to an ace that he's becoming that could be anywhere between $13-18 million so now around $50 million is used on 3 players.

Our problem with pitching is we play in a hitter's ballpark so FA pitchers aren't going to want to come here especially with a lack of winning. So we have to groom our pitchers which we aren't the Rays right now with all of our better arms being below AA which leads us to the trade market.

If we trade Votto and Masset to the Blue Jays and get back Morrow, Escobar, McGuire and Drabek we should look like this:

C: mesaraco, hanigan
1B: alonso
2B: phillips, cairo
SS: escobar, cozart
3B: rolen, francisco
LF: FA (if you really have that much faith in Heisey then you can put him here)
CF: stubbs, heisey
RF: bruce

SP: cueto, morrow, leake, bailey, wood, volquez, arroyo*Drabek and Mcguire right behind
RP: boxberger, ondrusek, bray, arredondo, lecure
SU: ??
CL: chapman

And according to Cot's if that is our roster we would have $15 million ($70 million in salary for 2012) left to go get another SP or LF. Or trade Arroyo + prospect to NYY for Swisher move him to left and your OF is set and you just need another arm but you have $15 million to work with. I thnk Walt is in a tough situation because if he keeps Votto and trades prospects he handicaps the future. If he gets rid of Votto there will be a mutiny and tickey sales will fall. If he tries to trade guys like Stubbs and Volquez he won't get much in return (because if we don't like them why would other GM's). He does have money to work with but he has to keep Phillips and he has 3-4 additional areas to fill with that little money. Not an easy solution. And I don't know know about you but I would much rather have a prolonged period of success than a two year hit it and quit it period that we haven't sealed the deal on yet.

[JaysFanToronto]

Back to the Blue Jays - their owner said they can see them having $100 million payroll in the next couple of years!

Reds get:
Escobar - signed through 2013 ($5 mil per) with club options in 2014 and 2015
Morrow - final arbitration year
McGuire - 6 years of control
Drabek - 4 years of control

Blue Jays get:
Votto
Wood
Masset

Why this is good: The reds farm system is loaded with position prospects and lacking in pitching prospects like Drabek and McGuire. Reds save money not in the sense of actual money but you get a good roatation arm in Morrow (WAR = 3.4), Escobar (WAR = 4.3) for 4 years and $2 million payroll room all for the price of Votto. That leaves money to play with at SP, LF, and possibly another bullpen arm.

Not sure if you're a Jays fan or Reds fan but this deal seems to favor Toronto. I've come to the conclusion that we'll probably have to wait until the trade deadline or next of season to make a trade for Votto as the price at this point will be very prohibitive.

Just a couple of corrections: I think Escobar's contract is two years at 4 mill per, with two option years at the same average salary. That's a bargain contract for a above average shortstop in his prime. Drabek, not having enough service time should still have five controllable years.

Now as for the parameters of a trade, I think it would have to be a three team trade for anything to work out, as our top prospect, plays the same position as the reds top prospect.

The question is what other team would be the perfect facilitator? The Marlins? The Rockies? The Angels? What prospect from another organization would make a good centre piece?

[dMaus14]

What if you added Asher Wojciecjowski for what the Reds receive, take back Masset and add Janish as a cheap John McDonald and Bronson Arroyo (payroll flexibility greatest part of trase); opens up SS for Hecchevaria to take over.

Now you have payroll room and prospects (grandal, sappelt, heisey, wood, volquez) left to trade for another arm: Danks, Floyd, or shields.

And you go low risk high reward signings like Bedard, Sanchez, Kazmir possibly Liriano. Also Delmon Young for LF (non tender candidate).

[Cardinal_Fan]

I honestly don't know how on Earth the Reds could trade Votto and I don't think it will happen (especially with how that Hamilton trade looks -- difference circumstances I know, but the offense for pitching thing didn't work out well). You guys should try to build a winner around him and bring the fans to the ballpark (winning will do that). He is a heck of a player, certainly someone you could build a team around.

[mroby85]

I honestly don't know how on Earth the Reds could trade Votto and I don't think it will happen (especially with how that Hamilton trade looks -- difference circumstances I know, but the offense for pitching thing didn't work out well). You guys should try to build a winner around him and bring the fans to the ballpark (winning will do that). He is a heck of a player, certainly someone you could build a team around.

Finally some sanity.

[lidspinner]

Finally some sanity.

I agree, but at what point does his 20+ million dollar salary start to limit what this team can do with the other spots on the roster? we cannot have 1 guy take up that much money when we are going to have to skimp at every other spot....I am not saying I want to trade Votto, but I am saying I want Walt to explore his options.....

I am not sure whats better for trying to make the playoffs, build a team around Votto with low salary guys and young guys who play hard or trade Votto and have a team full of medium salary guys who play hard....its a tough call and it is the main reason Walt is getting paid more than I am, he has to live with his decision and I am ok with that.....if Votto leaves and we get nothing in return for him and we have not made the playoffs then Walt will have to take a hike....this is what Walt is there for....figure it out walt

[The Rage]

You have to build teams in balance. One really weak point and everything comes apart. The Phillies are a good example of this. They overinvested into starting pitching and left themselves short a bat and arm in the lineup/pen(besides getting screwed in the NDS, but that is another topic for another time).

[texasdave]

Saying, point blank, before the off-season even begins that you are not listening to offers for Joey Votto is not the way to go. Why cut off one very important option in possibly upgrading the team as a whole? Of course he wouldn't even listen for offers for Ramon Hernandez so it does not surprise me. He can whine all year long about how his offers for this player or that player were better than what was accepted, but nobody is listening. Sports is a bottom-line industry. Either you get the job done or you don't. Cutting off options won't help get the job done IMO.

[Cardinal_Fan]

I just don't get it. When I think of Pujols and Votto I'm honestly not sure which one I'd rather have... How can you trade Votto? I've lived in Cincinnati, I don't see why a winner can't be built around him. You guys need to address the pitching from outside, but you have prospects to get some leverage on that. I dunno you guys have a good team, you shouldn't be thinking about essentially imploding it by getting rid of your best player.

I really mean this with respect. Votto is a great player. I don't think you can replace his value in a trade. IF you fail to improve over the next year or two and are out of it in his final season then whatever throw in the towel, but you guy's aren't that far off. You are not the Cubs.

[dMaus14]

I feel like we aren't that far off but we aren't that close either. 17 games back in the central and 11 games back in the wild card. Look I don't want to trade him either but our payroll is telling us we have to. St. Louis hasn't had a payroll under $80 million since 2002. We have no payroll flexibility right now and we want to keep our expensive player and trade our controllable cheap talent for one or two pieces, when you can trade Votto for several productive pieces for the future and the now. Use payroll flexibility on more pieces