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View Full Version : What would you do with Brandon Philips?



herbdizzle
10-08-2011, 02:05 PM
Good afternoon Redszone. It's good to join the forum. While 2011 was a disappointing year for the Reds results wise there were a few bright spots IMO. The development of Cueto, Leake, Bruce, & Alonso were all positive results from the year. However, the key issue going forward is what to do with Brandon Philips. I may be in the minority but I don't like the idea of extending Philips this off-season. I think it would benefit the Reds to simply pick up his option for now and see how he performs in 2011.

By not extending BP now it gives the Reds another year to evaluate the skills of Cozart and Billy Hamilton. If Cozart and Hamilton both continue to develop next year they could be cost effective middle infield solutions for 2013 when the 12-15 million BP would be paid could be used for pitching or a Votto extension. Plus it would guarantee his motivation for next year to perform at his best to get that last big contract.

What are you thoughts?

R_Webb18
10-08-2011, 02:10 PM
id love to sign him 2-3 yrs but just me. not many players in the game like him. i know most think thats to long but imo i feel he can continue wat hes doing.

Stray
10-08-2011, 03:57 PM
id love to sign him 2-3 yrs but just me. not many players in the game like him. i know most think thats to long but imo i feel he can continue wat hes doing.

2-3 years would be perfect for us, but not really fair considering where BP is in his career. He wouldn't take the deal and I wouldn't blame him. If we went 5 years with incentives for him to be paid in the back end he might bite. It all comes down to how much is just enough though, I don't know that we can.

Regardless, if we have to move on without him in 2013 it's going to be a big downgrade at 2nd base.

Vottomatic
10-08-2011, 07:03 PM
BP won't take the deal offered. I think he thinks he's worth more right now than they will offer. He will also look at the Bruce and Votto deals and wonder "why not me"? The answer is that they are younger, and BP is heading into his 30's and should start declining soon.

I'd offer him 3 years and if he declines, tell him we're picking up his '12 option and after that it's just business.

Roush's socks
10-09-2011, 01:32 AM
BP won't take the deal offered. I think he thinks he's worth more right now than they will offer. He will also look at the Bruce and Votto deals and wonder "why not me"? The answer is that they are younger, and BP is heading into his 30's and should start declining soon.

I'd offer him 3 years and if he declines, tell him we're picking up his '12 option and after that it's just business.

Agree with all of this. Phillips had a great year, but signing him to a long term deal doesn't make sense. If they could work out a reasonable deal that could be good, but I think Phillips is looking for the best deal out there, and why not? The days of athletes turning down more money to stay with small market teams are over. It happened in the past but these days the $$$$$$ rules.

The Rage
10-09-2011, 01:56 AM
Yup, a 5 year 60 million dollar deal doesn't make sense from the Reds POV. Phillips will be 31 next year. His speed and bat are in their final prime years. I would hate watching a 35 year old Phillips playing for the Reds.

A big market could sign him 5 years even though they would only expect, say 3 good years. The reds cannot(neither could the Cards fwiw).

TeamSelig
10-11-2011, 08:36 PM
Is there any chance we could land Billingsley + Ethier for Phillips + a prospect?

NCCardfan
10-11-2011, 09:30 PM
Ok. It's no secret that B Phillips is no fan of the Cardinals and the banter in August of 2010 made me dislike him. This spring I decided to look into his off field actions before going on a life long hatred for the man.

I was shocked and amazed! This guy plays hard, plays well, and still does charity work. This guy is a great athelete and an amazing human being. If the Reds orginization lets him go they are dumber than dirt but the real question is when I suppose. I would extend his contract through 2013 or 2014 this winter with a modest raise. If he keeps up his playing ability he ought to get the 'RED FOR LIFE' contract as long as his agent doesn't put the organization into the poor house. Players like these are few and far between, who would rather have some player like Nyger Morgan or Milton Bradley be the type of player that people think about when they hear your team being mentioned? Class act and he loves the team and the City. As much as I would LOVE to see him at 2B in STL, he is a good and positive face of the Reds.

Red Raindog
10-11-2011, 09:52 PM
Ok. It's no secret that B Phillips is no fan of the Cardinals and the banter in August of 2010 made me dislike him. This spring I decided to look into his off field actions before going on a life long hatred for the man.

I was shocked and amazed! This guy plays hard, plays well, and still does charity work. This guy is a great athelete and an amazing human being. If the Reds orginization lets him go they are dumber than dirt but the real question is when I suppose. I would extend his contract through 2013 or 2014 this winter with a modest raise. If he keeps up his playing ability he ought to get the 'RED FOR LIFE' contract as long as his agent doesn't put the organization into the poor house. Players like these are few and far between, who would rather have some player like Nyger Morgan or Milton Bradley be the type of player that people think about when they hear your team being mentioned? Class act and he loves the team and the City. As much as I would LOVE to see him at 2B in STL, he is a good and positive face of the Reds.

He does all of that + he seems to geniunely like the fans too.

He's the Red I like to watch on the field the most -- even when does something boneheaded once in a while.

I'm hoping he can be kept around.

webbbj
10-11-2011, 11:17 PM
id go 4 years heres 60 million and i think that is the absolute max the reds should go. id like to see 3 years 45 million tho. but id budge on 4 years.

MBZags
10-11-2011, 11:40 PM
Is there any chance we could land Billingsley + Ethier for Phillips + a prospect?

:laugh:

None whatsoever.

bounty37h
10-12-2011, 10:27 AM
Ok. It's no secret that B Phillips is no fan of the Cardinals and the banter in August of 2010 made me dislike him. This spring I decided to look into his off field actions before going on a life long hatred for the man.

I was shocked and amazed! This guy plays hard, plays well, and still does charity work. This guy is a great athelete and an amazing human being. If the Reds orginization lets him go they are dumber than dirt but the real question is when I suppose. I would extend his contract through 2013 or 2014 this winter with a modest raise. If he keeps up his playing ability he ought to get the 'RED FOR LIFE' contract as long as his agent doesn't put the organization into the poor house. Players like these are few and far between, who would rather have some player like Nyger Morgan or Milton Bradley be the type of player that people think about when they hear your team being mentioned? Class act and he loves the team and the City. As much as I would LOVE to see him at 2B in STL, he is a good and positive face of the Reds.

I agree, he is great with fans adn the community. And I love his excitement. A lot of people get on him for smiling when he gets an out, but I think that is his personality and having fun playing the game, and that helps out more than it hurts through a long season. I wish we could keep him, but dont see it happening, he will want more than the Reds will give at this point in his career.

Vottomatic
10-12-2011, 04:38 PM
id go 4 years heres 60 million and i think that is the absolute max the reds should go. id like to see 3 years 45 million tho. but id budge on 4 years.

I'd go longer if the contract decreased in value each year.

'12 (turns 31 in June) - $15M
'13 (32) - $12M
'14 (33) - $9M
'15 (34) - $8M + incentives
'16 (35) - $7M + incentives

5 years - $51M guaranteed. Big paycheck up front.

brm7675
10-12-2011, 04:49 PM
It is all going to come down to how "Bob" views BP. Right now I think Bob belives BP is a key to the Reds relationship with the fans and thus when it is all said and done the Reds will give BP a 5 year deal in the 50-55 million dollar range over those 5 years...

Krawhitham
10-12-2011, 06:12 PM
I would pick up his option and trade him.

He wants 4-5 year deal at 15 million each, screw that use the money to keep Votto

NCCardfan
10-12-2011, 10:44 PM
I'd go longer if the contract decreased in value each year.

'12 (turns 31 in June) - $15M
'13 (32) - $12M
'14 (33) - $9M
'15 (34) - $8M + incentives
'16 (35) - $7M + incentives

5 years - $51M guaranteed. Big paycheck up front.

This is a good structure Vottomatic. I feel that a LOT of contracts will go the way of less guaranteed and more incentives in the near future. Teams cannot keep paying midlevel decent players Ten's of Millions of dollars for less and less performance. Let's take BP for instance, I'm going to take liberties with your quoted structure:

'12 (turns 31 in June) - $15M(or $12.5M guaranteed + up to $3M in incentives)
'13 (32) - $12M (or $10M salary + up to $3M in incentives)
'14 (33) - $9M ($8M + $3M performance incentives)
'15 (34) - $8M + incentives ($7M + up to $4-4.5M incentives)
'16 (35) - $7M + incentives ($7M + $4M incentives)

The club's guaranteed money is lessened and every club not in the Brox, Boston, or Philly needs that + when BP performs he can make more than you proposed. If the players are performing, then the fans come to see & the club is winning more games (that is the point isn't it;)). This isn't the perfect structure but you see where I'm going with it I hope. BP makes $44M guaranteed and if he keeps up his performance could pocket up to $60M & in this case more times than not it means that the Reds are at the very least competing if not a playoff team. 1 player doesn't make any team get into the playoffs but at least if a player starts stinking up the joint then his paycheck gets smaller.

I jump off the soapbox now.

R_Webb18
10-12-2011, 11:27 PM
I would pick up his option and trade him.

He wants 4-5 year deal at 15 million each, screw that use the money to keep Votto

votto cost way to much + bp would be steal at what ppl are saying

Krawhitham
10-13-2011, 02:35 AM
votto cost way to much + bp would be steal at what ppl are saying

Phillips is not worth 15 million

Phillips will be 31 for the option year

32 the season an extension would start

a 4-5 year contract for a 32 year old is insane

brm7675
10-13-2011, 01:50 PM
Phillips is not worth 15 million

Phillips will be 31 for the option year

32 the season an extension would start

a 4-5 year contract for a 32 year old is insane

This is MLB, insane contracts happen all the time. I would rather "overpay" for BP then waste money on the likes of ER or such.

krm1580
10-13-2011, 02:23 PM
I feel the same way about Phillips as I did with Arroyo last season. He outperformed his last contract and he and his agent are going to be pushing for market value based on that past performance, which I don't blame them.

The problem of course is that moving forward I would not be going very far out on a limb to say his next 5 years will not exceed or even match his past 5 years. So while he outperformed his last contract he will most likely underperform his next contract, which is something small/mid market teams cannot afford.

So similar to what I said about Arroyo last year, see if you can sign him to a team friendly contract. If they decline (and I don't blame them if they do, it is their last opportunity for big $$$) you pick up their option and let the chips fall where they may.

R_Webb18
10-13-2011, 03:58 PM
I feel the same way about Phillips as I did with Arroyo last season. He outperformed his last contract and he and his agent are going to be pushing for market value based on that past performance, which I don't blame them.

The problem of course is that moving forward I would not be going very far out on a limb to say his next 5 years will not exceed or even match his past 5 years. So while he outperformed his last contract he will most likely underperform his next contract, which is something small/mid market teams cannot afford.

So similar to what I said about Arroyo last year, see if you can sign him to a team friendly contract. If they decline (and I don't blame them if they do, it is their last opportunity for big $$$) you pick up their option and let the chips fall where they may.

arroyo was average at best. bp is like top 3 at his spot. id be willing to bet he does good the next 2-3 yrs. also if bp wanted im sure he could get over 15 m

Vottomatic
10-14-2011, 10:35 AM
There was one reason, simply, they signed Arroyo. Innings-eater.

Bailey, Cueto, Volquez, Wood, Leake, in 2010, struggled to go 6 or 7 innings at times, and it put a strain on the bullpen.

R_Webb18
10-14-2011, 11:49 PM
Phillips is not worth 15 million

Phillips will be 31 for the option year

32 the season an extension would start

a 4-5 year contract for a 32 year old is insane

where do u get 4-5

Mr Larkin
10-17-2011, 03:45 PM
I would go as far as possible to keep BP, but we can't bet the farm on him alone.

GABPbum
10-17-2011, 06:47 PM
I personally do not think that the reds and BP will make a deal this offseason unless they offer him too much (which many people have pointed out). The only other deal that I could see him going after is the one that Vottomatic suggested. Phillips seems to be a very motivated person and I think that he would rise to the occasion if given the incentives offer.

If this deal doesn't happen then my hope is that the reds pick up the option for next year and evaluate both Phillips and Cozart. Phillips is still playing well but Cozart could be ready by 2013.

Again, my hope is that he signs an extension with incentives but I'm not sure that will be on the table.

The DARK
10-17-2011, 07:53 PM
5 years at 55-65 million sounds reasonable to me, considering we're talking about one of the top-tier second basemen in the game. If and when Votto departs for greener pastures, we're going to need some consistent batting from the rest of the squad, and Phillips is as much of a sure thing and team leader as we've got. Keep in mind that other free agent second basemen are going to be just as pricey, and we don't have any surefire second base prospects behind him either. And if you think that Valaika is a worthy stopgap, consider how well Janish fared in his starting stint. Give him that contract!

Vottomatic
10-18-2011, 09:25 AM
Again. I'd do a $50M to $55M contract over 5 years. I'd make his yearly pay higher at the beginning and go down in value, because common sense tells you he will probably decline instead of improve as he ages.

'12: $15M (his big payday at age 31)
'13: $11M (32)
'14: $10M (33)
'15: $ 9M (34)
'16: $ 7M (35)

$52M and maybe throw in some incentive clauses for '14 thru '16 so he can make another $3M.