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Matt700wlw
10-11-2011, 09:38 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7089985/theo-epstein-verge-taking-job-chicago-cubs-sources-say

Looking likely.

RFS62
10-11-2011, 09:49 PM
Theo!!!! In the name of all things holy, DON'T DO IT!!!!!

There is NO career in the history of MLB that Chicago can't ruin. There is no possible way this can end well for you!!!!!

RUN!!!!! Run like a scalded dog!!!! Run like you stole something!!!!!!

You will NEVER recover from this association.

Reds4Life
10-11-2011, 10:03 PM
Unless Theo is just going for the cash grab, which I doubt he needs, this would end up being the dumbest move of his career.

lollipopcurve
10-11-2011, 10:06 PM
History is history. Gone.

Cubs are the sleeping giant in the division.

Matt700wlw
10-11-2011, 10:10 PM
I wonder if Francona would become manager, assuming he doesn't want to take a year off and re-charge the batteries.

JaxRed
10-11-2011, 10:11 PM
If he broke the streaks of both Boston and Chicago he would be a GM legend...

edabbs44
10-11-2011, 10:20 PM
Unless Theo is just going for the cash grab, which I doubt he needs, this would end up being the dumbest move of his career.

Why would that be?

Spitball
10-11-2011, 10:55 PM
Why would that be?

Jumping from frying pan to the fire.

Spitball
10-11-2011, 10:57 PM
Maybe not so fast:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/10/epstein_not_out.html

savafan
10-11-2011, 11:14 PM
I would love to see the Cubs make all of the right moves and still get trounced for the next 100 years by the likes of Cincinnati, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Pittsburgh and Houston.

marcshoe
10-11-2011, 11:39 PM
Bring in a big name like Epstein and cubs fans will turn on him when they don't win it all next year. Theo would be smart to back away slowly.

Roy Tucker
10-12-2011, 12:10 AM
He'll either be a big hero or a big flop.

I think the bloom is a bit off his "boy genuis" reputation. I'd bet on the flop end of the spectrum. But the Cubs have always scared me. If they ever get their act together, they could be a formidable force in that market and $$$.

The Operator
10-12-2011, 12:15 AM
The thought of The Cubs having a GM with a brain scares me.

Hopefully if Theo does end up in Chicago he signs a lot of John Lackey-esque contracts for them.

Chip R
10-12-2011, 12:26 AM
Don't do it, Theo! You'll be sorry.

westofyou
10-12-2011, 12:28 AM
http://www.doctorramey.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/don-quixote1.gif

edabbs44
10-12-2011, 08:11 AM
He'll either be a big hero or a big flop.

I think the bloom is a bit off his "boy genuis" reputation. I'd bet on the flop end of the spectrum. But the Cubs have always scared me. If they ever get their act together, they could be a formidable force in that market and $$$.

I think Theo's bloom started to fall off once PED testing came around. Then he became more of a GM with deep pockets than anything else.

Tom Servo
10-12-2011, 09:56 AM
http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/this-just-in/21147021/dc-theo-has-5-year-deal-cubs

done deal, apparently.

redsfan30
10-12-2011, 10:23 AM
This worries me.

From his viewpoint though, he has a chance to be the guy who ended two curses. As someone said earlier, he'd be a legend.

Chip R
10-12-2011, 10:27 AM
This worries me.

From his viewpoint though, he has a chance to be the guy who ended two curses. As someone said earlier, he'd be a legend.

Perhaps. I do remember the last time the Cubs hired the flavor of the month wunderkind as their GM. Andy MacPhail had the experience, the pedigree, and he had results. It didn't end well for Andy in Chicago. Maybe it'll be different for Theo.

medford
10-12-2011, 10:31 AM
I think its a no lose situation for Theo. He'll always be a legend for breaking the 'curse' in Boston, bringing home two titles. Chicago's payroll will keep them out of the cellar w/ any reasonable amount of decent GMing and planning, he'd have the opportunity to break the other bit 'curse' in baseball. If he didn't win it all in Chicago, well it was the goat's fault.

mdccclxix
10-12-2011, 10:31 AM
It seems like there is some rotten water in Boston. It's been a long tenuous run. I'm sure there will be stories to be heard about what's gone on during the Epstein years. Lot's of PED smoke, characters like Manny and Pedro, a rabid and irrational fanbase, media worship, arrogance, failure in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, your manager just bails at season's end because players aren't listening, finger pointing at players like Youkilis, then come to find out your stars Beckett and Lester are drinking beer and playing video games during the collapse - clearly they're straining for answers (Adam Dunn's chair!). Now their boy genius, lifelong BoSox fan, is leaving to take the biggest risk he could take, go to the Cubs. We may not need to look for Boston competing in the near future if things don't shore up. It might be a good time for the Reds to pick at the carcass while it's fresh.

mbgrayson
10-12-2011, 10:43 AM
The Cubs picking up Theo Epstein worries me. The Cubs have a bigger payroll than the other NL Central teams, and if they get smarter, we will end up fighting the Cubs as well as the Cards and Brewers for the division. Of course he will have to deal with a lot of bad contracts on their books for the next few years, but I would predict that the Cubs will do better with him as their GM.

dfs
10-12-2011, 10:59 AM
The Cubs picking up Theo Epstein worries me. The Cubs have a bigger payroll than the other NL Central teams, and if they get smarter, we will end up fighting the Cubs as well as the Cards and Brewers for the division. Of course he will have to deal with a lot of bad contracts on their books for the next few years, but I would predict that the Cubs will do better with him as their GM.

That was my first thought too. One of the articles quoted above ends...

"The Cubs apparently have not settled on a title for Epstein"

....Well isn't that interesting. Why not just call him the GM? Is that not going to be his job? If that's not his job, then what is he doing? Special assistant to the GM? Bufferage between the GM and the stakeholders? If he's not going to be the GM, I'm far less worried.

With the payroll they can afford, Smart Cubs would be scary.

JaxRed
10-12-2011, 11:05 AM
This is an easier gig than Boston. He should do it. 90% of being a GM is having the big $$$ and not squandering it. In Boston he had to compete against someone that could spend even more. Here he'll have more money than anyone in Division.

Tom Servo
10-12-2011, 11:08 AM
Theo will likely be President of Baseball Operations (just as Jocketty is for us) or something along those lines, he will have the GM power.

REDREAD
10-12-2011, 11:08 AM
Also, Epstein's title with the Cubs would be above his current title of executive vice president/general manager of the Red Sox, a source told Levine.



Can I suggest the title of "The Grand Poobah" :lol:

mdccclxix
10-12-2011, 11:10 AM
Take Pena and Grabow off next year and save 15 million. Take Dempster and Zambrano off in 2013 and save 33 more million.

I hope they DO sign an aging Pujols this winter, I think it weakens the future of the Cards and Cubs.

They have a nice bullpen, but their rotation is in tatters understandably.
If Epstein could settle down Zambrano and sign CJ Wilson they could bounce right in the race I think:

CJ Wilson
Zambrano
Dempster

westofyou
10-12-2011, 11:21 AM
And on this day 104 years ago.

The Cubs win their first World Series, as Mordecai Brown tosses a shutout to defeat the Tigers, 2-0 in Game Five to end it

Benihana
10-12-2011, 11:36 AM
The Cubs picking up Theo Epstein worries me. The Cubs have a bigger payroll than the other NL Central teams, and if they get smarter, we will end up fighting the Cubs as well as the Cards and Brewers for the division. Of course he will have to deal with a lot of bad contracts on their books for the next few years, but I would predict that the Cubs will do better with him as their GM.

This is my thinking as well. I'm not a huge Theo guy, but this is not good for the Reds, at all.
I'm especially worried that my kids may now grow up in a world where the Cubs are actually good.
All the more reason why the Reds really have to go for it in these next two years. After that, I fear it could be another lost decade.

bucksfan2
10-12-2011, 12:09 PM
In my mind I am trying to rationalize this. I tend to think that some of the luster has worn off Theo over the past few seasons. But then again its not exactly like Boston has been hovering around the .500 mark during a bad season. But as of late Theo's magic touch has turned pretty poor. Big time free agents and extensions have back fired. Guys like Lackey, Dice K, Crawford (jury is still out), Beckett, JD Drew were really a drag on the team over the past season or two. With any good organization success comes from the inside. Youk, Pedroia, Papplebon, Lester and Buckholtz created a nice core of guys to build around.

My take is the Cubs will be successful if they are able to develop a good core to build around. If not you will continue to have a GM handing out bid contracts to high priced free agents.

dfs
10-12-2011, 12:24 PM
I'm especially worried that my kids may now grow up in a world where the Cubs are actually good.

That's just seems so impossible.

They're the cubs.

Mario-Rijo
10-12-2011, 12:30 PM
In my mind I am trying to rationalize this. I tend to think that some of the luster has worn off Theo over the past few seasons. But then again its not exactly like Boston has been hovering around the .500 mark during a bad season. But as of late Theo's magic touch has turned pretty poor. Big time free agents and extensions have back fired. Guys like Lackey, Dice K, Crawford (jury is still out), Beckett, JD Drew were really a drag on the team over the past season or two. With any good organization success comes from the inside. Youk, Pedroia, Papplebon, Lester and Buckholtz created a nice core of guys to build around.

My take is the Cubs will be successful if they are able to develop a good core to build around. If not you will continue to have a GM handing out bid contracts to high priced free agents.

That's the problem here, Theo understands it's about building from within and he has shown quite adept at collecting/developing young talent.

I pray they go after a guy like Pujols especially if they get Theo, Albert would be an anchor in a few years and they would likely be stuck with his contract and would not have the room to go after Votto.

mdccclxix
10-12-2011, 12:31 PM
The Reds are going to need the ability to spend 100 million within 3-4 years, that's why 2011 was a failure in the progression of this team. Fan interest and faith (which is fickle and relies on winning, yes even an 82-80 season will mitigate the overall picture) needs to steadily increase or the 85 million payroll next year will get slashed back to 60 or 70 while the Cueto's and Bruce's get sent packing at the end, or before the end, of their contracts and we're back to square 0. OK, rant over.

mdccclxix
10-12-2011, 12:34 PM
That's the problem here, Theo understands it's about building from within and he has shown quite adept at collecting/developing young talent.

I pray they go after a guy like Pujols especially if they get Theo, Albert would be an anchor in a few years and they would likely be stuck with his contract and would not have the room to go after Votto.

Yeah, you wonder if Votto will find interest in Chicago in 2 years or if he really does hate the Cubs. Votto is likely a SABR/AL East type of guy, Epstein could appeal and visa versa. I'm already having visions of strictly pitching way inside to Votto in a Cubs uni. Not pleasant!

Roy Tucker
10-12-2011, 01:12 PM
And on this day 104 years ago.

The Cubs win their first World Series, as Mordecai Brown tosses a shutout to defeat the Tigers, 2-0 in Game Five to end it

We should all give daily thanks to God, Yahweh, Allah, Jehovah, Brama, Wotan, Zeus, Jupiter, the Flying Spaghetti monster, or any higher power of your choice that we weren't born Cubs fans.

Blitz Dorsey
10-12-2011, 01:28 PM
This whole thing stinks to high heavens. I can't believe the Red Sox were stupid enough to get rid of a good manager AND a good GM. Way to overreact, gentlemen. You just screwed yourself.

But this really stinks for the Reds too. Now the Cubs are basically guaranteed not to suck. They won't necessarily be great (or even good) but they will always be a contender from this point forward. The NL Central -- already one of the toughest divisions to win in baseball -- just got tougher.

Yes, Epstein made some mistakes, like the Carl Crawford and John Lackey albatrosses. However, overall, there is no doubt he's a good GM and he will help the Cubs. He won't have quite as high of a payroll to play with, but it's still a hell of a lot more than the Reds/Jocketty get to play with.

This is just simply not good. I can't believe the Red Sox's stupidity is going to result in helping the Cubs. To be clear, the Cubs won't be good in 2012, but they will be good sooner rather than later with Epstein running the ship. He's not a magician and at times I think he's overrated, but he's still much better than most of the GMs out there ... and certainly better than anything the Cubs have had.

We better have a good offseason or I'm going to be really upset. The Reds are not that far away from being legit contenders. But we need to sack up and make some bold moves this offseason.

osuceltic
10-12-2011, 02:09 PM
If he's going to continue to give hundreds of millions of dollars to guys like John Lackey, JD Drew, Carl Crawford, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Matt Clement, Edgar Renteria, Julio Lugo, Mike Cameron, Bobby Jenks and John Smoltz then his transition to Chicago will be seamless.

Ghosts of 1990
10-12-2011, 02:41 PM
He won two titles in Boston, he got stuff done. I'll take bad contracts like the ones listed above out of Walt if he even gets us to won series, let alone build a team that wins it.

I have no doubts that Chicago will be back in the World Series and relevant as a force in our division again before the Reds are able to. This was a big, great move for them.

defender
10-12-2011, 02:52 PM
New ownership, with the commitment to go out and get their dream GM. Whether Epstein is the guy or not, replacing shareholders with a guy that wants the Cubs to win, will make the Cubs a better team.

Chip R
10-12-2011, 03:08 PM
New ownership, with the commitment to go out and get their dream GM. Whether Epstein is the guy or not, replacing shareholders with a guy that wants the Cubs to win, will make the Cubs a better team.

They couldn't be much worse.

westofyou
10-12-2011, 03:12 PM
If guys like Jocketty are too old and "out of it" and guys like Beane to "full of it" and guys like Epstein have just been a part of "deep pocket" receivership what exactly is a good GM in a sport that has a lot of turmoil and quagmires in a 162 game season?

This isn't a marvel comic series, all GM's will achieve some serious FAILS in their tenures.

And one day the Cubs will win the World Series, the press will eat it up in a manner that will destroy everyone who spends energy hating them, it will be more annoying than a Tim McCarver story.

osuceltic
10-12-2011, 03:48 PM
He won two titles in Boston, he got stuff done. I'll take bad contracts like the ones listed above out of Walt if he even gets us to won series, let alone build a team that wins it.

I have no doubts that Chicago will be back in the World Series and relevant as a force in our division again before the Reds are able to. This was a big, great move for them.

Sure, overall he did a good job. His best moves were his early moves, before the Sox morphed into the Yankees and started just throwing money at everything.

But look at the list of mistakes. The reality is Boston was one of two organizations that could make those kinds of mistakes and keep spending to overcome them. Maybe the Cubs will do the same and give Theo the opportunity to make those mistakes and still spend his way out of them.

Benihana
10-12-2011, 04:08 PM
If guys like Jocketty are too old and "out of it" and guys like Beane to "full of it" and guys like Epstein have just been a part of "deep pocket" receivership what exactly is a good GM in a sport that has a lot of turmoil and quagmires in a 162 game season?

I'd say Andrew Friedman and Jon Daniels are looking pretty good. So is Alex Anthopolous, who admittedly, hasn't won anything yet.

Tom Servo
10-12-2011, 04:12 PM
I'd say Andrew Friedman and Jon Daniels are looking pretty good. So is Alex Anthopolous, who admittedly, hasn't won anything yet.
I would add Kevin Towers to that list. I said at the time I thought the Padres were making a mistake jettisoning him essentially because he could only do so much with their low budget, and he has proved that to be the case in Arizona.

mdccclxix
10-12-2011, 04:23 PM
I want to see how strong Jocketty can make the Reds this offseason so I can resume complete confidence in what he's building here. The heat is turning up. Houston is gone, no more whipping boy. Chicago is on countdown for 2013 contention. Wainwright returns next year. Fielder or not, Milwaukee will still have a great rotation next year and an ability to put up runs. Get strong Walt!

redsfandan
10-12-2011, 05:33 PM
Right now it looks like Boston prefers cash as compensation: http://twitter.com/#!/SI_JonHeyman/status/124165354858627073

klw
10-12-2011, 05:38 PM
Amazing piece on the collapse of the Sox.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2011/10/12/red_sox_unity_dedication_dissolved_during_epic_lat e_season_collapse/?page=5
Lets see we have accusations of a drug addicted manager, a starting staff all drinking and playing video during games, Ellsbury disconnected from the team, players griping about everything, $300 headphone presents ...

westofyou
10-12-2011, 05:53 PM
I'd say Andrew Friedman and Jon Daniels are looking pretty good. So is Alex Anthopolous, who admittedly, hasn't won anything yet.

True, but dang Jon Daniels once traded AGon for Adam Eaton

Benihana
10-12-2011, 06:51 PM
True, but dang Jon Daniels once traded AGon for Adam Eaton

Like someone said before, every GM makes mistakes and has regrets.

Beane traded Harang for Guillen. (Score 1 for the Reds)
Epstein traded Arroyo for Wily Mo. (Score 2 for the Reds)
Cashman has given out more money in bad contracts than the rest of the teams' payrolls combined and has won only once in the last decade.
Walt traded Haren for Mulder (Score 3 for the Reds)
Bowden traded O'Neill for Kelly (sorry, I got carried away)

I'd take Daniels and Friedman over Beane, Epstein, Cashman, or Walt. I'd take Anthopolous too. In a second.

WVRed
10-12-2011, 07:15 PM
If he's going to continue to give hundreds of millions of dollars to guys like John Lackey, JD Drew, Carl Crawford, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Matt Clement, Edgar Renteria, Julio Lugo, Mike Cameron, Bobby Jenks and John Smoltz then his transition to Chicago will be seamless.

If he brings a World Series I don't think anybody is going to care.

paintmered
10-12-2011, 08:11 PM
Theo in 2011 isn't Theo in 2004. The rest of baseball has caught up with his methodologies and he'll have less payroll than he did in Boston. He'll also have much less competition for a playoff spot.

Bottom line: this makes me nervous. I'm not sure I can handle the possibility of the Cubs being anything other than the Cubs. Theo gives them instant legitimacy even if he is no longer head-and-shoulders above everyone else.

George Anderson
10-12-2011, 08:22 PM
All we need now is Tony LaGenius becoming the Cubs manager and he brings them a WS championship.

Suddenly I feel ill.

Tom Servo
10-12-2011, 08:33 PM
Theo in 2011 isn't Theo in 2004. The rest of baseball has caught up with his methodologies and he'll have less payroll than he did in Boston.
If the Cubs start to win you can guarantee the payroll will get higher. see also: Phillies, Philadelphia.

kaldaniels
10-12-2011, 09:03 PM
If Theo wants to cement his legacy this is an awesome move.

Face it. If you are a top-5 payroll team in MLB in this day and age, your team is gonna come around and eventually win the World Series. It is just a matter of time until the Cubs dominate the Central, regardless of who is running things. So if you are Theo, you slide right over into the Cubs GM seat, use your decent GM skills to build a winner, and go down in the history books as the guy who brought long-needed World Series titles to the Red Sox and Cubs. And go down in history as one of the best, if not THE best, GM ever. Sounds like a plan to me.

RedsManRick
10-12-2011, 10:32 PM
The NL Central just got notably tougher.

blumj
10-13-2011, 12:18 AM
Like someone said before, every GM makes mistakes and has regrets.

Beane traded Harang for Guillen. (Score 1 for the Reds)
Epstein traded Arroyo for Wily Mo. (Score 2 for the Reds)
Cashman has given out more money in bad contracts than the rest of the teams' payrolls combined and has won only once in the last decade.
Walt traded Haren for Mulder (Score 3 for the Reds)
Bowden traded O'Neill for Kelly (sorry, I got carried away)

I'd take Daniels and Friedman over Beane, Epstein, Cashman, or Walt. I'd take Anthopolous too. In a second.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but the one time Friedman actually had some real money to spend on the free agent market, he ended up having to release Pat Burrell. And this one really cracks me up: Anthopoulos got Mike Napoli for Vernon Wells, which is amazing. But then he flipped him for Frank Francisco?

Johnny Footstool
10-13-2011, 01:26 AM
Amazing piece on the collapse of the Sox.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2011/10/12/red_sox_unity_dedication_dissolved_during_epic_lat e_season_collapse/?page=5
Lets see we have accusations of a drug addicted manager, a starting staff all drinking and playing video during games, Ellsbury disconnected from the team, players griping about everything, $300 headphone presents ...

That's the Boston media rolling out a litany of lame excuses. Hey, most of it was going on while the Red Sox tore through the league in May, June, July, and August, but we didn't hear about it, because there was no story to be sold. Now, readers want to know the "inside scoop," so the media trots out this pile of anecdotes.

My guess is that all that stuff goes on in every other MLB clubhouse every year.

cincinnati chili
10-13-2011, 03:10 AM
The Sox are a very top-heavy organization.

I think a lot of people make the mistake of assuming that the key Red Sox' mistakes (or good choices for that matter) were made with Theo's blessing. That article reported that Theo pushed for Crawford over the objection of other senior execs. Hadn't heard that one before.

If the Cubs are really going to give him control, then (aside from the $$$), I can totally see why he'd want to take on the challenge and stand or fall on his own merits.

Ron Madden
10-13-2011, 05:37 AM
[QUOTE=westofyou;2491878]If guys like Jocketty are too old and "out of it" and guys like Beane to "full of it" and guys like Epstein have just been a part of "deep pocket" receivership what exactly is a good GM in a sport that has a lot of turmoil and quagmires in a 162 game season?

This isn't a marvel comic series, all GM's will achieve some serious FAILS in their tenures.

And one day the Cubs will win the World Series, the press will eat it up in a manner that will destroy everyone who spends energy hating them, it will be more annoying than a Tim McCarver story.[/QUOTE


It's Homerism.

Beane or Epstein never worked for the Reds. If they did, it would automatically make them very wise and provide them with built in excuses kinda like Wayne Special "K" Krivisky or "Dano" O'Brien. Nothing they ever did was any fault of their own. ;)

Benihana
10-13-2011, 10:44 AM
I'm not disagreeing with you, but the one time Friedman actually had some real money to spend on the free agent market, he ended up having to release Pat Burrell. And this one really cracks me up: Anthopoulos got Mike Napoli for Vernon Wells, which is amazing. But then he flipped him for Frank Francisco?

Like I said, everyone makes mistakes. In my opinion, Friedman and Daniels seem to make less of them and more savvy moves than some others.

lollipopcurve
10-13-2011, 10:56 AM
In my opinion, Friedman and Daniels seem to make less of them and more savvy moves than some others.

Ehh. There's so much we don't know about when it comes to how decisions are made that it's hard to justify any kind of ranking of GMs, IMO.

For example -- should GMs get credit for good drafts and blame for bad ones? Take a look at the last few Rangers drafts. Not real impressive. Should Daniels get dinged for that? Who gets credit for their aggressive international signings -- Daniels, ownership, scouts? Is it to Daniels credit that the Mariners sent Cliff Lee to them because Jack Z preferred Smoak to other prospects being offered?

It's all too squishy for me.

blumj
10-13-2011, 03:43 PM
BTW, I'm not sure how obvious it is if you're not in the middle of all this, but, just in case it isn't, Ben Cherington is GM of the Red Sox.

cincinnati chili
10-15-2011, 11:53 AM
Ehh. There's so much we don't know about when it comes to how decisions are made that it's hard to justify any kind of ranking of GMs, IMO.

For example -- should GMs get credit for good drafts and blame for bad ones? Take a look at the last few Rangers drafts. Not real impressive. Should Daniels get dinged for that? Who gets credit for their aggressive international signings -- Daniels, ownership, scouts? Is it to Daniels credit that the Mariners sent Cliff Lee to them because Jack Z preferred Smoak to other prospects being offered?

It's all too squishy for me.

Agree 100%.

vaticanplum
10-15-2011, 03:08 PM
Who's familiar with the detailed ins and outs of what's tied up in the Cubs' roster right now? I stopped paying attention to them when I decided to excise all irrelevant fluff from my life.

My perception is that they have a lot of money to spend -- and may get even more with the street cred of Epstein now (because when I think Epstein, I think STREET), but it's also true that the organization has been in flux for the last several years. I know the Trib finally sold the team but I don't know anything about the family that bought it or what their general philosophies are. And their buckets of money aside, there was a time in the recent past when they had an awful lot of money tied up in pretty terrible players. Soriano is still under that godawful contract. Zambrano is getting old and spotty. They're the Cubs; I know they can swallow a lot of money if they end up trading some of these guys, but it will take a crapton to sign someone like Pujols as well.

Oh god, I'm so infuriated with what might happen here. The Yankees don't get away with anything under the eye of money-conscious fans, and there is at least a good deal of criticism toward the Red Sox and the Phillies for the money they spend and the amount of leeway they have to make the occasional bad decision. But because the Cubs play far away from the evil East Coast, and their ballpark is a frathouse, and their fans have so few brain cells as to believe that losing is adorable, and anyone will pay any amount of money for something with a blue bear on it because they think it looks cute on babies, everybody just lets them get away with the fact that they are the WORST example of throwing money around because THEY DON'T DO IT WELL. They throw away money, they give up on players at the first sign of problems (except for the ones who sell a lot of magazines with their tales of injury and woe), they're horrible at managing their farm system. And if they end up winning because they finally have a GM who just does it slightly better -- which is by no means to say that he'll even do it well, because he'll have so much money that he'll be able to mess up right and left -- then we'll be absolutely buried in special segments on ESPN featuring grandmothers and Harry Caray voiceovers, and everyone will cry and conveniently forget what an awful, evil organization they are and how horrid all of their slurring, oblivious fans are. The Cubs embody ALL THE WORST QUALITIES of sports organization and fandom, and everybody screams about it with the AL East, but wrap it in ivy and NO ONE EVEN NOTICES. I hate the Cubs so much.

757690
10-15-2011, 03:30 PM
One crucial point that was reported is that the Red Sox will not allow Epstein to take any of his staff or their software with him. Epstein is smart, but what really turned them around was when they hired Bill James, and melded his stats with their very deep scouting department.

Now Epstein will import that overall philosophy of mixing scouts and stats, but I have to think that he was very dependent on the organization that he was working with. It is yet to be seen if he the Cubs can provide him with as good an organization as he had with the Red Sox.

signalhome
10-15-2011, 03:35 PM
One crucial point that was reported is that the Red Sox will not allow Epstein to take any of his staff or their software with him. Epstein is smart, but what really turned them around was when they hired Bill James, and melded his stats with their very deep scouting department.

Now Epstein will import that overall philosophy of mixing scouts and stats, but I have to think that he was very dependent on the organization that he was working with. It is yet to be seen if he the Cubs can provide him with as good an organization as he had with the Red Sox.

That is an excellent point that I had not thought of.

dougdirt
10-15-2011, 03:41 PM
One crucial point that was reported is that the Red Sox will not allow Epstein to take any of his staff or their software with him. Epstein is smart, but what really turned them around was when they hired Bill James, and melded his stats with their very deep scouting department.

Now Epstein will import that overall philosophy of mixing scouts and stats, but I have to think that he was very dependent on the organization that he was working with. It is yet to be seen if he the Cubs can provide him with as good an organization as he had with the Red Sox.

The Red Sox had been using plenty of sabermetric ideas before they hired Bill James. Theo Epstein and the other guys who were assistants to the GM prior to Epstein getting the job were all very saber-friendly types who were using statistical models and analysis to help evaluate players. Adding James certainly helped, but I think you are cutting short Epstein and the other guys that were there before Epstein got the job.

RFS62
10-15-2011, 04:00 PM
Who's familiar with the detailed ins and outs of what's tied up in the Cubs' roster right now? I stopped paying attention to them when I decided to excise all irrelevant fluff from my life.

My perception is that they have a lot of money to spend -- and may get even more with the street cred of Epstein now (because when I think Epstein, I think STREET), but it's also true that the organization has been in flux for the last several years. I know the Trib finally sold the team but I don't know anything about the family that bought it or what their general philosophies are. And their buckets of money aside, there was a time in the recent past when they had an awful lot of money tied up in pretty terrible players. Soriano is still under that godawful contract. Zambrano is getting old and spotty. They're the Cubs; I know they can swallow a lot of money if they end up trading some of these guys, but it will take a crapton to sign someone like Pujols as well.

Oh god, I'm so infuriated with what might happen here. The Yankees don't get away with anything under the eye of money-conscious fans, and there is at least a good deal of criticism toward the Red Sox and the Phillies for the money they spend and the amount of leeway they have to make the occasional bad decision. But because the Cubs play far away from the evil East Coast, and their ballpark is a frathouse, and their fans have so few brain cells as to believe that losing is adorable, and anyone will pay any amount of money for something with a blue bear on it because they think it looks cute on babies, everybody just lets them get away with the fact that they are the WORST example of throwing money around because THEY DON'T DO IT WELL. They throw away money, they give up on players at the first sign of problems (except for the ones who sell a lot of magazines with their tales of injury and woe), they're horrible at managing their farm system. And if they end up winning because they finally have a GM who just does it slightly better -- which is by no means to say that he'll even do it well, because he'll have so much money that he'll be able to mess up right and left -- then we'll be absolutely buried in special segments on ESPN featuring grandmothers and Harry Caray voiceovers, and everyone will cry and conveniently forget what an awful, evil organization they are and how horrid all of their slurring, oblivious fans are. The Cubs embody ALL THE WORST QUALITIES of sports organization and fandom, and everybody screams about it with the AL East, but wrap it in ivy and NO ONE EVEN NOTICES. I hate the Cubs so much.



Bless you, VP *sniff*

That was magnificant.

:beerme:

redsfandan
10-15-2011, 04:09 PM
One crucial point that was reported is that the Red Sox will not allow Epstein to take any of his staff or their software with him.

I've read that's why it's not 100% done. Apparently Theo wants to bring an assistant or two with him to Chicago. But Boston doesn't want to do that without asking for alot more in compensation.

757690
10-15-2011, 04:31 PM
The Red Sox had been using plenty of sabermetric ideas before they hired Bill James. Theo Epstein and the other guys who were assistants to the GM prior to Epstein getting the job were all very saber-friendly types who were using statistical models and analysis to help evaluate players. Adding James certainly helped, but I think you are cutting short Epstein and the other guys that were there before Epstein got the job.

I don't follow the Red Sox that closely, so I'm sure you're right. I didn't mean to imply that their success was dependent on James. I also don't mean to sell Epstein short, however, I think the key to his success is the team that he builds around him, as it is with every GM.

cincinnati chili
10-15-2011, 11:29 PM
I've read that the process is being held up because Larry Lucchino is being aggressive (or being a ******, depending on your perspective) in insisting on the Cubs' best prospect or two in return:

http://www.csnchicago.com/baseball-chicago-cubs/news/Red-Sox-playing-hardball-with-Cubs?blockID=577760&feedID=661

I had not heard that Bill James has much influence, and doubt that's true. He doesn't even live in Boston, and is basically just a consultant. His interviews have suggested that much of his analysis is on coming up with defensive metrics.

I think it's dangerous to assume who was responsible for which good or which bad moves over the past 8 or 9 years. John Henry just said in an interview that he didn't agree with the Carl Crawford signing. Seriously? You're the partner with a plurality of ownership shares and you can't veto a $140 million contract?

[Name drop forthcoming] I am acquainted with the person who's likely to be the next GM of the Red Sox, and he's been in the Sox inner circle throughout this whole mess (we went to the same grad program. He hasn't told me who was responsible for pushing for Lackey, Crawford, and (to a lesser extent) Daisuke. I've talked to some of our trusted mutual friends, and he hasn't told them either. If the insiders aren't talking to people they know about what's going on, even their close friends, I doubt that they are being sincere with the media. It wouldn't surprise me if the "sources" within the Sox are low level people who have no idea wtf is going on.

redsfandan
10-16-2011, 02:33 AM
[Name drop forthcoming] I am acquainted with the person who's likely to be the next GM of the Red Sox, and he's been in the Sox inner circle throughout this whole mess (we went to the same grad program. He hasn't told me who was responsible for pushing for Lackey, Crawford, and (to a lesser extent) Daisuke. I've talked to some of our trusted mutual friends, and he hasn't told them either. If the insiders aren't talking to people they know about what's going on, even their close friends, I doubt that they are being sincere with the media. It wouldn't surprise me if the "sources" within the Sox are low level people who have no idea wtf is going on.

I tend to take things that come from people that are 'close to those involved' with a grain of salt. No offense intended. It's not that I doubt that you know the guy cuz I don't doubt that. But, despite the chaos going on, this guy is going to get a really nice job. I know I'd watch what I'd say so I didn't screw it up.

cincinnati chili
10-16-2011, 02:44 AM
I tend to take things that come from people that are 'close to those involved' with a grain of salt. No offense intended. It's not that I doubt that you know the guy cuz I don't doubt that. But, despite the chaos going on, this guy is going to get a really nice job. I know I'd watch what I'd say so I didn't screw it up.

I agree he'd be a fool to talk now. But I'm also saying, going back several years to the Daisuke signing, then Lackey, and then Crawford, it has been very difficult to get a sense of who in the organization was gung ho in favor of such signings. I don't think anyone really knows which one of these (if any) were done over Theo's objection or which ones Theo pushed for.

Someone mentioned Bill James' influence above. All of these signings, except maybe Daisuke (who's actually been the most valuable of the 3) were very un-Bill-Jameseque, unsabermetric signings.

gilpdawg
10-17-2011, 10:09 AM
I agree he'd be a fool to talk now. But I'm also saying, going back several years to the Daisuke signing, then Lackey, and then Crawford, it has been very difficult to get a sense of who in the organization was gung ho in favor of such signings. I don't think anyone really knows which one of these (if any) were done over Theo's objection or which ones Theo pushed for.

Someone mentioned Bill James' influence above. All of these signings, except maybe Daisuke (who's actually been the most valuable of the 3) were very un-Bill-Jameseque, unsabermetric signings.
Yes, Red Sox ownership is a very meddling ownership. I'm pretty sure I've heard that Theo didn't want to sign Lackey, but was ordered to "make a splash" with a pitcher, and he was the best out there at that time, and I think the fact that he was losing control is one of the reasons he wanted out.

Theo should bring Bartman in to throw out the first pitch opening day, to try and swing the karma the other way. (That's a joke, BTW, I know Bartman would NEVER want to do that.)

Roy Tucker
10-17-2011, 12:54 PM
Who's familiar with the detailed ins and outs of what's tied up in the Cubs' roster right now? I stopped paying attention to them when I decided to excise all irrelevant fluff from my life.

My perception is that they have a lot of money to spend -- and may get even more with the street cred of Epstein now (because when I think Epstein, I think STREET), but it's also true that the organization has been in flux for the last several years. I know the Trib finally sold the team but I don't know anything about the family that bought it or what their general philosophies are. And their buckets of money aside, there was a time in the recent past when they had an awful lot of money tied up in pretty terrible players. Soriano is still under that godawful contract. Zambrano is getting old and spotty. They're the Cubs; I know they can swallow a lot of money if they end up trading some of these guys, but it will take a crapton to sign someone like Pujols as well.

Oh god, I'm so infuriated with what might happen here. The Yankees don't get away with anything under the eye of money-conscious fans, and there is at least a good deal of criticism toward the Red Sox and the Phillies for the money they spend and the amount of leeway they have to make the occasional bad decision. But because the Cubs play far away from the evil East Coast, and their ballpark is a frathouse, and their fans have so few brain cells as to believe that losing is adorable, and anyone will pay any amount of money for something with a blue bear on it because they think it looks cute on babies, everybody just lets them get away with the fact that they are the WORST example of throwing money around because THEY DON'T DO IT WELL. They throw away money, they give up on players at the first sign of problems (except for the ones who sell a lot of magazines with their tales of injury and woe), they're horrible at managing their farm system. And if they end up winning because they finally have a GM who just does it slightly better -- which is by no means to say that he'll even do it well, because he'll have so much money that he'll be able to mess up right and left -- then we'll be absolutely buried in special segments on ESPN featuring grandmothers and Harry Caray voiceovers, and everyone will cry and conveniently forget what an awful, evil organization they are and how horrid all of their slurring, oblivious fans are. The Cubs embody ALL THE WORST QUALITIES of sports organization and fandom, and everybody screams about it with the AL East, but wrap it in ivy and NO ONE EVEN NOTICES. I hate the Cubs so much.

Don't hold back now, vp. Quit beating around the bush. Tell us how you really feel.

TRF
10-17-2011, 04:04 PM
Who's familiar with the detailed ins and outs of what's tied up in the Cubs' roster right now? I stopped paying attention to them when I decided to excise all irrelevant fluff from my life.

My perception is that they have a lot of money to spend -- and may get even more with the street cred of Epstein now (because when I think Epstein, I think STREET), but it's also true that the organization has been in flux for the last several years. I know the Trib finally sold the team but I don't know anything about the family that bought it or what their general philosophies are. And their buckets of money aside, there was a time in the recent past when they had an awful lot of money tied up in pretty terrible players. Soriano is still under that godawful contract. Zambrano is getting old and spotty. They're the Cubs; I know they can swallow a lot of money if they end up trading some of these guys, but it will take a crapton to sign someone like Pujols as well.

Oh god, I'm so infuriated with what might happen here. The Yankees don't get away with anything under the eye of money-conscious fans, and there is at least a good deal of criticism toward the Red Sox and the Phillies for the money they spend and the amount of leeway they have to make the occasional bad decision. But because the Cubs play far away from the evil East Coast, and their ballpark is a frathouse, and their fans have so few brain cells as to believe that losing is adorable, and anyone will pay any amount of money for something with a blue bear on it because they think it looks cute on babies, everybody just lets them get away with the fact that they are the WORST example of throwing money around because THEY DON'T DO IT WELL. They throw away money, they give up on players at the first sign of problems (except for the ones who sell a lot of magazines with their tales of injury and woe), they're horrible at managing their farm system. And if they end up winning because they finally have a GM who just does it slightly better -- which is by no means to say that he'll even do it well, because he'll have so much money that he'll be able to mess up right and left -- then we'll be absolutely buried in special segments on ESPN featuring grandmothers and Harry Caray voiceovers, and everyone will cry and conveniently forget what an awful, evil organization they are and how horrid all of their slurring, oblivious fans are. The Cubs embody ALL THE WORST QUALITIES of sports organization and fandom, and everybody screams about it with the AL East, but wrap it in ivy and NO ONE EVEN NOTICES. I hate the Cubs so much.

best. rant. ever.

Benihana
10-17-2011, 07:14 PM
best. rant. ever.

x2

If we still gave rep points, vaticanplum would get my entire allocation for the year. Well done, sir.

savafan
10-17-2011, 07:23 PM
x2

Well done, sir.

I think you mean ma'am. ;)

defender
10-17-2011, 09:35 PM
What the Redsox have done, is spend money on the draft. They are signing 2, 3,4 first round talents a year, instead of one. Epstein or his entire staff would not make much difference, if the Cub's owner is not willing to do that.

The Cubs have already started doing that. Rickets has increased spending on the draft. Epstein and whomever he brings or keeps on staff, will do fine. Hopefuly it takes at least 3 years.

Ron Madden
10-18-2011, 05:04 AM
Legend has it that Jesus Christ appeared in the Chicago Cubs clubhouse in 1908.

He said "Don't you guys do anything until I get back".

gilpdawg
10-18-2011, 06:53 AM
Cubs fans are so dumb they believe they are being cursed by a billy goat. Isn't it obvious? The Cubs last won in 1908, right? What famous incident happened in 1908? Merkle's Boner! The Cubs aren't cursed by a stupid goat, they just have to pay back years of karma for screwing Fred Merkle! And their fans don't even know it. Bwahahaha. :D

CarolinaRedleg
11-16-2011, 04:11 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7242337/terry-francona-ruled-managing-2012-not-chicago-cubs

Tito says not now to Chicago.

blumj
11-17-2011, 12:41 AM
Sveum very likely cubs next manager.

http://twitter.com/#!/SI_JonHeyman/status/137019220453105664

George Anderson
11-17-2011, 01:08 AM
http://twitter.com/#!/SI_JonHeyman/status/137019220453105664

I need to learn how to say his name.

blumj
11-17-2011, 02:03 AM
I need to learn how to say his name.

It's Swaym, but it's so hard not to say Svaym, so I'm a little relieved he isn't taking the Red Sox job.

757690
11-30-2011, 02:37 PM
His first big player move. A new right fielder... David DeJesus

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/cubs-reach-agreement-with-david-dejesus.html

Edd Roush
11-30-2011, 02:45 PM
His first big player move. A new right fielder... David DeJesus

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/cubs-reach-agreement-with-david-dejesus.html

A lot of posters were big fans of DeJesus last off-season. He's obviously no longer an option for the Reds, but for those who were touting him last off-season, has your opinion changed? DeJesus did a great job of taking lots of walks last year despite his contact rate plumetting. Was this a good pick-up for the Cubs? DeJesus doesn't seem like a re-build move to me. I wonder if they are going to try to win in 2012. I guess them pursuing Pujols would mean they don't believe they need to re-build.

RedsManRick
11-30-2011, 03:23 PM
A lot of posters were big fans of DeJesus last off-season. He's obviously no longer an option for the Reds, but for those who were touting him last off-season, has your opinion changed? DeJesus did a great job of taking lots of walks last year despite his contact rate plumetting. Was this a good pick-up for the Cubs? DeJesus doesn't seem like a re-build move to me. I wonder if they are going to try to win in 2012. I guess them pursuing Pujols would mean they don't believe they need to re-build.

For 2/10 Dejesus was an absolute steal. He's not a world-beater, but if you subscribe to the "at least average everywhere" philosophy, he'll give you average to above average production at a cheap price.

Hoosier Red
11-30-2011, 05:07 PM
Maybe because they're both former Royals, but he always reminded me of Michael Tucker. Decent OF, not enough power to be an optimal corner outfielder, but someone you can stick 6th or 7th in the batting order and get good production.

Dejesus Career Average: .289/.360/.427
Tucker Career Average: .256/.339/.423


So he's essentially Tucker with a better knack for getting on base.