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View Full Version : Should we trade Mes & keep Grandal?



Will M
10-19-2011, 02:37 AM
The conventional wisdom seems to be that Mes/Hanigan will be the catchers in 2012. Grandal may get dealt this offseason. If not and Mes plays well then Grandal likely gets dealt before 2013. He is one of our biggest trading chips. I have been thinking. The trade scenario I have seen floated about most often is Alonso/Grandal for Shields. This makes sense for both teams. However, I presume Mes has a higher trade value than Grandal. He is rated higher as a prospect & is one level more developed. What if the team brought back Ramon on the cheap for one year, traded Mes, and planned for Grandal/Hanigan in 2013? Could we snare a strong starter for Mes and change rather than have to give up two of our top three prospects to grab that pitcher?

Degenerate39
10-19-2011, 07:53 AM
Keep em both

RANDY IN INDY
10-19-2011, 09:07 AM
Wouldn't be a good idea to trade Mesoraco. Looks like the real deal to me. Catcher is a hard position to fill, and he should fill it well for a good long time.

mdccclxix
10-19-2011, 09:24 AM
I agree, if it's about getting a better player in return, why not trade Mesoraco?

- Mez is "ready" now, but there will certainly be a learning curve at the plate and behind the plate and this team is in win now mode next year.

- I honestly don't think Mez is getting more than 80-85 starts anyway. Dusty just won't do it unless he's totally killing it.

- The difference between the two catching prospects is debatable. If the Reds feel they are keeping the better catcher in Grandal, that's even better.

- Resigning Ramon would be hugely unpopular, unless the Mez trade brought back a huge star player. What could be worse than retaining the best catching tandem in the NL?

- In the "You are the GM...Shortstop" thread I posted this trade idea:

Mesoraco + Chapman + Cozart = 28 y/o Hanley Ramirez at 3 years 46.5 million

BP
Bruce
Ramirez
Votto
Rolen
Alonso/Heisey
Stubbs/Heisey
Hernanigan

RedsManRick
10-19-2011, 11:11 AM
A bird in the hand. Unless you're somebody who is otherwise unattainable (e.g. Felix Hernandez), Grandal is the chip. I get where you're coming from, but I think that's getting a bit too cute.

Mario-Rijo
10-19-2011, 11:32 AM
In a word, nope.

mdccclxix
10-19-2011, 12:19 PM
A bird in the hand. Unless you're somebody who is otherwise unattainable (e.g. Felix Hernandez), Grandal is the chip. I get where you're coming from, but I think that's getting a bit too cute.

First, there's a good chance that neither of them work out that well. Second, there is a chance that just one of them will. Third, there is a chance that both work out well.

To me the chances that it's Mez or Grandal are very similar. Just being 1 year ahead of the other doesn't really mean much to me for the Red's purposes.

Besides whether Mez is the difference between Felix or Shields, say, I think the variable that says the Reds actually like Grandal better is actually just as likely as them liking Mez better. Or they just can't make up their minds. Who wouldn't believe that?

Nevertheless, trading one of them this offseason seems like the right thing to do when you consider:

1) Mez doesn't work out and
Yas doesn't work out

2) Mez works out or
Yas works out

3) Mez works out and
Yas work out

1 out of 6 scenarios would produce regret, if the Reds trade the one who works out. Both values are very high, Mez's is higher. If the Reds actually like Grandal as much or more, they should definitely trade Mez for a great return if it's available.

If there isn't a good deal for the Reds, a "Carson Palmer" type deal let's say, I won't mind keeping both, either. I've said before that Grandal can be a stop gap, if not a real solution, at 1b in 2014, batting right behind Mesoraco, our cleanup hitter. :beerme:

RedsManRick
10-19-2011, 03:54 PM
First, there's a good chance that neither of them work out that well. Second, there is a chance that just one of them will. Third, there is a chance that both work out well.

To me the chances that it's Mez or Grandal are very similar. Just being 1 year ahead of the other doesn't really mean much to me for the Red's purposes.

Besides whether Mez is the difference between Felix or Shields, say, I think the variable that says the Reds actually like Grandal better is actually just as likely as them liking Mez better. Or they just can't make up their minds. Who wouldn't believe that?

Nevertheless, trading one of them this offseason seems like the right thing to do when you consider:

1) Mez doesn't work out and
Yas doesn't work out

2) Mez works out or
Yas works out

3) Mez works out and
Yas work out

1 out of 6 scenarios would produce regret, if the Reds trade the one who works out. Both values are very high, Mez's is higher. If the Reds actually like Grandal as much or more, they should definitely trade Mez for a great return if it's available.

If there isn't a good deal for the Reds, a "Carson Palmer" type deal let's say, I won't mind keeping both, either. I've said before that Grandal can be a stop gap, if not a real solution, at 1b in 2014, batting right behind Mesoraco, our cleanup hitter. :beerme:

I'm not against keeping them both, at all. We saw what happened to the Rangers and their supposed glut of catching (though I wouldn't mind getting Mike Napoli for a mediocre reliever). But if you're trading one and both return good value, I'm keeping the guy who has crushed AAA pitching over a full season and has better reviews defensively.

The difference between them isn't just "one year". In his age 22 season, Mes hit .302/.377/.587, .964 OPS with 26 HR. Grandal hit .305/.401/.500 with 14 HR. But more to the point, Mes went out this year and was very solid in AAA. We can't simply assume Grandal will do the same. Yes, he's potentially 1 year away from being close to where Mes is now. But there's a very real chance he won't be.

At the plate, I'm not sure Grandal has the power you'd typically like to see out of 1B. He's still got a very good bat that would likely play just about anywhere, but he loses a good chunk of value moving off catcher. Of course, that's a problem I'd like to have.

At the end of the day, you can make a similar argument with any decent prospect. Let's not trade him because it might come back to haunt us. But this is a team poised to succeed. Mes can be a part of that this year. Grandal cannot. If it came to it, if we can get a piece that would help us a lot, trading Mes would hurt our 2012 roster, blunting the benefit of acquiring that other player. Trading Grandal wouldn't. I'm not leading trade offers with Grandal, but I definitely wouldn't let a deal fizzle out over including him.

lollipopcurve
10-19-2011, 03:59 PM
if we can get a piece that would help us a lot

That's the big IF. Gotta be a frontline player under team control for 3+ years, IMO. Otherwise, hang onto both. The chance still exists that they can build for the future with both guys (one at 1B or in LF -- with Mes being the more likely to move, given his athleticism). I really like Grandal's LH bat for GAB and his ability to work counts -- don't want to see them trade him for a marginal upgrade.

dougdirt
10-19-2011, 06:06 PM
To the original question.... absolutely not. Mesoraco is a potential .850+ OPS bat at catcher with potential above average defense. Grandal isn't either of those things. To compare their sheer tools against the other, Mesoraco has the better hit tool, Mesoraco has the better power, Mesoraco is the better thrower, Mesoraco is the better defender and Mesoraco has better speed, though it doesn't matter at all since they play catcher. Athletically, Mesoraco is a little better. When it comes to plate discipline, I think Mesoraco is more advanced there now, but its probably pretty close in the future.

In short, Mesoraco is on a completely different level than Grandal is. In my opinion, Grandal's ceiling is probably pretty close to what Mesoraco is today.

Grandal doesn't have the bat to play at first base, so for anyone thinking about that.... I would think again. With that said, Mesoraco could have the bat to play at first, so that could be a way to keep both 2-3 years down the road if you want to do something else with Alonso, but you had better be really sure about Grandal and Mesoraco to make that plan.

Scrap Irony
10-19-2011, 07:15 PM
How do you figure Mesoraco has a better hit tool, doug?

Grandal's 2011 line is 305/401/500. I realize that includes Bakersfield for half a season, but it also includes Carolina (305 BA with similar patience and less pop than Mesoraco) for a 900 full season OPS. In his half-season of AA, Mesoraco went 294/363/594.

I get the power and agree completely.

But Grandal looks like his hit tool is pretty much the same asd is his patience.

It's a great problem to have, really-- two very good catchers. One ready now and one ready next season.

Superdude
10-19-2011, 07:21 PM
To the original question.... absolutely not. Mesoraco is a potential .850+ OPS bat at catcher with potential above average defense. Grandal isn't either of those things. To compare their sheer tools against the other, Mesoraco has the better hit tool, Mesoraco has the better power, Mesoraco is the better thrower, Mesoraco is the better defender and Mesoraco has better speed, though it doesn't matter at all since they play catcher. Athletically, Mesoraco is a little better. When it comes to plate discipline, I think Mesoraco is more advanced there now, but its probably pretty close in the future.

In short, Mesoraco is on a completely different level than Grandal is. In my opinion, Grandal's ceiling is probably pretty close to what Mesoraco is today.

Grandal doesn't have the bat to play at first base, so for anyone thinking about that.... I would think again. With that said, Mesoraco could have the bat to play at first, so that could be a way to keep both 2-3 years down the road if you want to do something else with Alonso, but you had better be really sure about Grandal and Mesoraco to make that plan.

Agree with this completely. Grandal is not an identical commodity arriving a year later. All evidence points to Mesoraco having the better career, and unless a trade partner will blow us out of the water for Mesoraco and scoff at Grandal, Mes is staying IMO. And secondly, I really hope we're not at a point 2-3 years from now where Grandal is our best option at first base. Walt should be spending the next year listening to offers on Grandal.

dougdirt
10-19-2011, 07:23 PM
How do you figure Mesoraco has a better hit tool, doug?
Because he does. He hits the ball harder. He has similar plate discipline, if not better.

And let's also note that Grandal's BABIP this season was .375. That isn't likely to be repeated or even come close to.

Superdude
10-19-2011, 07:27 PM
How do you figure Mesoraco has a better hit tool, doug?

Grandal's 2011 line is 305/401/500. I realize that includes Bakersfield for half a season, but it also includes Carolina (305 BA with similar patience and less pop than Mesoraco) for a 900 full season OPS. In his half-season of AA, Mesoraco went 294/363/594.

I get the power and agree completely.

But Grandal looks like his hit tool is pretty much the same asd is his patience.

It's a great problem to have, really-- two very good catchers. One ready now and one ready next season.

Grandal's average was solid, but he also struck out at a pretty healthy clip, which doesn't bode well for sustainability. And I haven't read anything recently, but bat speed and hit tool were questions about Grandal on draft day.

RedsManRick
10-19-2011, 07:55 PM
I see that .300/.400/.500 and my eyes light up too -- especially because of the walk rate. But I also see that his walk rate was more than cut in half in AA while he continued to strike out more than 20% of the time. And if we were to normalize his BABIP, we're looking at a .260/.360/.440 line. Still impressive for a 22 year old catcher, but not quite as much.

Not to break character, but in any event there's a BIG difference between what slash stats a guy puts up and what his hit tool is. Doug is talking about an assessment about the guy's ultimate true talent -- not how that talent has manifested itself so far.

Especially in the low minors there can be a big gap between observed performance and actual (or projected) ability, for any number of reasons. For example, a guy who can launch a straight fastball 500 feet and who has decent pitch recognition but who can't touch a good breaking pitch can hit .320 in the low minors with great power since he's facing a bunch of guys who can throw their breaking stuff for a strike. Put that guy in AAA (or the majors) and he's a .240 hitter and his power drops off as he makes weaker contact against better quality pitches. And that's just one thing. There's also the poor quality of the fields, worse defense, park effects, age relative to competition, etc.

When we're talking about the minor leagues, the simple answer is that the performance numbers can be very deceiving. That's not to say they're useless, but the lower you go in the minors the less and less insightful actual performance is and the more you need to rely on the scouts. I don't think any of us has greater insight from what we can read in the numbers than we Doug can provide us from what he's scouted.

Superdude
10-19-2011, 10:43 PM
When we're talking about the minor leagues, the simple answer is that the performance numbers can be very deceiving. That's not to say they're useless, but the lower you go in the minors the less and less insightful actual performance is and the more you need to rely on the scouts. I don't think any of us has greater insight from what we can read in the numbers than we Doug can provide us from what he's scouted.

Numbers certainly shed light on a lot of things, but you've gotta look well beyond slash lines when a guy only has 400ABs in A ball. BABIP's a legitimate skill for hitters, but it's WAY to early to conclude that Grandal is even above average in that category.

RedsManRick
10-19-2011, 11:08 PM
Numbers certainly shed light on a lot of things, but you've gotta look well beyond slash lines when a guy only has 400ABs in A ball. BABIP's a legitimate skill for hitters, but it's WAY to early to conclude that Grandal is even above average in that category.

Ummm.... I think you're misreading my post. I'm arguing precisely that we should not rely on the the stats to come to any conclusions when it comes to minor leaguers.

However, if we're trying to estimate true talent by looking at the stats, we should be regressing his BABIP towards league average quite a bit.

Superdude
10-19-2011, 11:23 PM
Ummm.... I think you're misreading my post. I'm arguing precisely that we should not rely on the the stats to come to any conclusions when it comes to minor leaguers.

However, if we're trying to estimate true talent by looking at the stats, we should be regressing his BABIP towards league average quite a bit.

oh yea I wasn't disagreeing with you at all. I was just expounding on the BABIP thing.

mdccclxix
10-20-2011, 12:25 AM
I respect Doug's opinion on these catchers, but what does Mesoraco's .855 OPS normalize to this year? If Grandal's normalized OPS is .800, and Mesoraco's is say .825, are we really talking about another level? The reports on Grandal's arm are not world beating, but you know, every time I hear Mesoraco brought up from the Red's perspective its that "he's learning" or "he's working on some things". It's never a ringing type of statement. It sort of reminds me of Sappelt. I'm not saying Mez has any serious issues, but he's certainly not a finished product defensively. He's also not a lock to OPS over .800 year in and year out, if at all.

RedsManRick
10-20-2011, 01:28 AM
I respect Doug's opinion on these catchers, but what does Mesoraco's .855 OPS normalize to this year? If Grandal's normalized OPS is .800, and Mesoraco's is say .825, are we really talking about another level? The reports on Grandal's arm are not world beating, but you know, every time I hear Mesoraco brought up from the Red's perspective its that "he's learning" or "he's working on some things". It's never a ringing type of statement. It sort of reminds me of Sappelt. I'm not saying Mez has any serious issues, but he's certainly not a finished product defensively. He's also not a lock to OPS over .800 year in and year out, if at all.

If you want to go the normalizing stats route, we first need to adjust for BABIP, which drops Grandal down to .800 or so. Then we need to account for the fact that he did a good chunk of that in one of the best offensive parks in the minors -- in high A. Hardly the same thing as putting up an .855 in AAA.

But I'd go back to the whole scouting/stats distinction. I don't claim to be a scout, but the ones I've seen/heard from say that Mesoraco has a significantly higher offensive upside than Grandal. That certainly doesn't make it fact -- as we've seen with Votto -- but it's still the best insight we've got. As for the working on things, show me a 23 year old catcher who is a finished product and I've got a bridge to sell you.

Superdude
10-20-2011, 01:38 AM
I respect Doug's opinion on these catchers, but what does Mesoraco's .855 OPS normalize to this year? If Grandal's normalized OPS is .800, and Mesoraco's is say .825, are we really talking about another level? The reports on Grandal's arm are not world beating, but you know, every time I hear Mesoraco brought up from the Red's perspective its that "he's learning" or "he's working on some things". It's never a ringing type of statement. It sort of reminds me of Sappelt. I'm not saying Mez has any serious issues, but he's certainly not a finished product defensively. He's also not a lock to OPS over .800 year in and year out, if at all.

I don't think you can just "normalize" OPS and compare the two. Mesoraco put up a pretty sustainable .855 OPS over 500AB in AAA. On top of that, it's not exactly the best hitter's park or league. Grandal had a nice season, but BABIP certainly played a factor and I don't think you can put too much stock into his power until he plays outside of Bakersfield for a while.

Dimensions of Bakersfield home field LF: 328 CF: 354 RF: 328

I'm not knocking Grandal, but Mesoraco is on a whole different level until Grandal proves otherwise.

dougdirt
10-20-2011, 03:19 AM
I respect Doug's opinion on these catchers, but what does Mesoraco's .855 OPS normalize to this year? If Grandal's normalized OPS is .800, and Mesoraco's is say .825, are we really talking about another level? The reports on Grandal's arm are not world beating, but you know, every time I hear Mesoraco brought up from the Red's perspective its that "he's learning" or "he's working on some things". It's never a ringing type of statement. It sort of reminds me of Sappelt. I'm not saying Mez has any serious issues, but he's certainly not a finished product defensively. He's also not a lock to OPS over .800 year in and year out, if at all.

I think Grandal's arm is actually pretty solid. It grades out as average to a slight tick above from the times I have had on him.

As for normalizing things, I will say this.... Louisville's right field robbed Mesoraco of a few extra HR's this season that he would have gotten in most places, including GABP. He is a pull hitter, but when he goes the other way it is usually with power. Last season his IsoP to right field was .447, which is pretty darn good. This season it was below .200 in Louisville. It is a tough place to hit the ball out of.

As for the knocks on Mesoraco's defense.... I think these are the same things you hear about just about all minor league catchers. We just haven't had any worth talking about who were young in how long? Hanigan was always an older guy (spent his career in the minor leagues until he was 27) and who was the last guy from the system to catch before him? I think it is just a perception thing because we haven't had a guy worth talking about at that position who was also young in 10+ years.

Strikes Out Looking
10-20-2011, 09:50 PM
2 Names -- Saltimacchia and Teagarden. Prospects don't always become JB. Keep 'em both.

crazybob60
10-20-2011, 10:44 PM
Unless we are blown away with an offer, meaning a TOR type of SP, then no, we shouldn't, and I mean that for both Mes and Grandal.

RANDY IN INDY
10-21-2011, 11:59 AM
2 Names -- Saltimacchia and Teagarden. Prospects don't always become JB. Keep 'em both.

Nobody has ever become JB.

mdccclxix
10-21-2011, 12:47 PM
I can't find any splits on where Yasmani hit the ball in Bakersfield, or any milb splits in 2011 for that matter, so I can't argue that Yas was aided by his environment and Mez was hurt by it. We'll go with Doug on that.

I will leave open the possibility, though, that Yasmani has the skill set to put the ball in play where he wants to more often, leading to a higher BABIP than Mez, who just takes a strong cut and can really connect, but often just misses good contact. For a 1st round talent out of Miami that has been praised for his approach, I wouldn't put it past him yet, and a high BABIP is certainly not an uncommon trait for advanced hitters in the minors, no matter the environment.

In his first year of pro ball he did well. Like many 1st round catchers, he spent 22 in A+ and AA. I suspect he may need to work on pitch recognition if his bb rate in AA was due to better off spead stuff. His 22% or so K rate needs to come down to the teens, IMO, which I think it can.

I did some research on 1st round C's recently and would rank them, based on their 22-23 y/o seasons in A+ through AAA, like so:
Weiters A
Posey A-
Mesoraco B+ (2010)
Grandal B (2011)
Jason Castro B-
Jeff Clement C

However, I put Grandal's floor a bit higher than Mez due to OBP skills and approach.

klw
10-21-2011, 01:12 PM
2 Names -- Saltimacchia and Teagarden. Prospects don't always become JB. Keep 'em both.

Interestingly this is also the argument for trading both of them. You don't know if or when they will amount to something so trade them for known quantities. (Not something I would like to see happen by the way)

dougdirt
10-21-2011, 02:06 PM
However, I put Grandal's floor a bit higher than Mez due to OBP skills and approach.

Grandal has the higher floor because he walked a little bit more than Mesoraco? Doesn't Mesoraco having hit well in AAA over 557 plate appearances trump a really high walk rate in Bakersfield?

Strikes Out Looking
10-21-2011, 02:22 PM
Nobody has ever become JB.

You are correct, and like Thurman Munson, I shouldn't have embarrased them by comparing them to No. 5. I guess I should say we don't know if they will even become Joe Oliver.

mdccclxix
10-21-2011, 02:31 PM
Grandal has the higher floor because he walked a little bit more than Mesoraco? Doesn't Mesoraco having hit well in AAA over 557 plate appearances trump a really high walk rate in Bakersfield?

I also said approach. I think he will have more chance to succeed and adjust to MLB pitching because he's a switch hitter with a good eye for the strike zone and power from both sides. Lower ceiling, higher floor, that's how I see it. My biggest concern for Grandal is pitch recognition and K rate, but since it was his first year and he did so well with OBP, I am optimistic that he will get his K rate down in the 17-19% range. Mesoraco could end up a 20 hr catcher, with a .245 average, which I don't think holds as much value as a catcher that bats, say .285 with 12-15 hr and OBP's .380. That's my rough vision of the future there.

dougdirt
10-21-2011, 02:39 PM
I also said approach. I think he will have more chance to succeed and adjust to MLB pitching because he's a switch hitter with a good eye for the strike zone and power from both sides. Lower ceiling, higher floor, that's how I see it. My biggest concern for Grandal is pitch recognition and K rate, but since it was his first year and he did so well with OBP, I am optimistic that he will get his K rate down in the 17-19% range. Mesoraco could end up a 20 hr catcher, with a .245 average, which I don't think holds as much value as a catcher that bats, say .285 with 12-15 hr and OBP's .380. That's my rough vision of the future there.

Why do you think that the guy who strikes out less and has more power will hit for a much lower average? That really doesn't make much mathematical sense.

RedsManRick
10-21-2011, 02:53 PM
Grandal has the higher floor because he walked a little bit more than Mesoraco? Doesn't Mesoraco having hit well in AAA over 557 plate appearances trump a really high walk rate in Bakersfield?



Grandal
PA BB% K% ISO BABIP
A 0 -- -- --- ---
A+ 251 16% 23% .214 .359
AA 172 8% 23% .173 .377
AAA 18 -- -- --- ---

Mesoraco
PA BB% K% ISO BABIP
A 334 6% 19% .137 .300
A+ 538 10% 20% .196 .302
AA 212 9% 18% .299 .300
AAA 557 10% 17% .199 .318


For me, the big thing in the data is this: When Mes moved to AA (leaving Sarasota, a pitcher's paradise), his power spiked big time while his BB%, K% and BABIP held steady. When Grandal moved to AA (leaving Bakersfield, a hitter's paradise), his walk rate was cut in half while his K%, ISO and BABIP held steady. On top of that, his BABIP is unsustainable at the major league level unless he's a line driving hitting freak like Joey Votto. That's possible, but it's much, much more likely that he's in large part been the beneficiary of good "luck", bad defense, etc.

Now, to be fair, Mes was dealing with bad thumbs in his first years, so those early ISOs may have not been a good representation of his talent. And while Mes's power dropped back to mere above average instead of top notch in AAA, Doug has suggested that AAA suppresses RH pull power. I think Doug is arguing a few things:
- Mes makes more contact
- Mes has more power
- Grandal's 16% BB rate in Bakersfield was not sustainable

In short, Grandal is Mes with less contact and less power. I will be watching these 3 things from Grandal next year:

1.) Does he sustain a .350+ BABIP?
2.) Does he sustain a .180+ ISO?
3.) Does his BB% rebound north of 10%?

We should have a much clearer picture of Grandal this time next year

dougdirt
10-21-2011, 03:09 PM
Doug has suggested that AAA suppresses RH pull power. Actually, Louisville suppresses left handed pull power, which would actually hurt Mesoraco's opposite field power. While Mesoraco is a pull first hitter, his IsoP to right field dropped from .447 in 2010 to .156 this year. I saw several warning track fly balls to dead right field this season that would have been gone in most other parks that wound up being outs for Mesoraco.



1.) Does he sustain a .350+ BABIP?


It is worth noting that his LD rate in Bakersfield was only 13% and in Carolina it was 20%. So it wasn't as if he were spraying line drives all over the place. So I don't think his BABIP is going to be sustainable unless he improves his rate of line drives, I don't think its going to happen that he is Joey Votto like (Grandal for example had 19 IFFB's this year, while Votto has had 2 over the last two seasons, which is one reason why his BABIP remains high).

lollipopcurve
10-21-2011, 03:10 PM
In short, Grandal is Mes with less contact and less power. I will be watching these 3 things from Grandal next year:

1.) Does he sustain a .350+ BABIP?
2.) Does he sustain a .180+ ISO?
3.) Does his BB% rebound north of 10%?

We should have a much clearer picture of Grandal this time next year

One other thing to keep an eye on -- health. Grandal had a balky elbow this year. He was in and out of the lineup, and now he's been missing time in the AFL too. Not sure if the elbow is causing all of these absences, but if it is, it's likely something that will have to be addressed at some point.

mdccclxix
10-21-2011, 03:23 PM
Why do you think that the guy who strikes out less and has more power will hit for a much lower average? That really doesn't make much mathematical sense.

Like I said, it was a rough guess.

dougdirt
10-21-2011, 03:26 PM
Like I said, it was a rough guess.

But what is it based around? Guys with less power and less contact rarely hit for higher averages than guys with more contact and more power, much less 30-40 points higher. Was your guess simply based on the fact that Grandal can hit from both sides of the plate?

mdccclxix
10-21-2011, 03:39 PM
But what is it based around? Guys with less power and less contact rarely hit for higher averages than guys with more contact and more power, much less 30-40 points higher. Was your guess simply based on the fact that Grandal can hit from both sides of the plate?

That and his walk rate, yes.

Superdude
10-21-2011, 03:40 PM
I will leave open the possibility, though, that Yasmani has the skill set to put the ball in play where he wants to more often, leading to a higher BABIP than Mez, who just takes a strong cut and can really connect, but often just misses good contact. For a 1st round talent out of Miami that has been praised for his approach, I wouldn't put it past him yet, and a high BABIP is certainly not an uncommon trait for advanced hitters in the minors, no matter the environment.

You can't put BABIP skills past him, but you also can't even begin to draw a conclusion on that after less than 400 at bats in single A.

Superdude
10-21-2011, 03:47 PM
That and his walk rate, yes.

Walk rate could either be great pitch recognition or just a product of approach. Stubbs has a very solid walk rate, but I think it's safe to say pitch recognition has nothing to do with it. We'll have to wait and see on Grandal, but the K rate so far points more towards him taking pitches as opposed to having great discipline.

dougdirt
10-21-2011, 03:58 PM
Walk rate could either be great pitch recognition or just a product of approach. Stubbs has a very solid walk rate, but I think it's safe to say pitch recognition has nothing to do with it. We'll have to wait and see on Grandal, but the K rate so far points more towards him taking pitches as opposed to having great discipline.

Especially since when he went to AA, his walk rate dramatically declined.

Superdude
10-21-2011, 04:09 PM
Especially since when he went to AA, his walk rate dramatically declined.

I hope these Mesoraco comparisons stop just so I can say something nice about Grandal for once. I like him a lot everyone! :laugh:

mdccclxix
10-21-2011, 04:29 PM
I hope these Mesoraco comparisons stop just so I can say something nice about Grandal for once. I like him a lot everyone! :laugh:

Yeah my intent wasn't to air all his dirty laundry, oh well. What's that saying, "trying to help can make things 1,000 times worse." :D My original point in this thread was that the return on Mez may outweigh the risk in keeping Grandal. At this point I'm thinking trade them both!

Vottomatic
10-24-2011, 04:24 PM
I have had no desire to trade our best players.

But I'm starting to have a change of heart.

I atleast would make them available in trade, and field offers. I would make it known to every GM that every player is available for the right offer, and then see what kind of crazy offers come in. If someone is willing to overpay in a Herschel Walker-type offer, then YOU have to consider it.

If everyone is underpaying, then you sit tight and go to war with your stud players.