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Buckeye33
12-19-2011, 04:18 PM
Noah Spence now commits to Ohio State. That D-Line is going to be sick in a couple of years.....heck, it should be really good next year.

I will say that the dominating DL will begin this upcoming year. Just take a look at this list assuming the committed players sign.

Nathan Williams, Simon, Hankins, Goebel, Bellamy, JT Moore, Bennett, Baldwin, Kenny Hayes, Farris, Hale, Spence, Washington, Schutt, Pittman

That is 15!!! deep. Obviously you can not play 15 DL but I think it is fair to say you could play 10 pretty consistently.

Brutus
12-20-2011, 11:14 AM
FYI, Ohio State received its findings from the NCAA yesterday. They will be announced by the NCAA at 3 PM with the media being given a public copy of the report at 2 PM to prepare for the teleconference.

Don't expect anything more than an added year probation and perhaps 1-3 more scholarships taken away.

BuckeyeRed27
12-20-2011, 02:03 PM
Bowl ban plus some other minor stuff. Pretty pumped for the Gator Bowl now. Good bye Gene. I didn't blame him until now but he has to go now.

cincrazy
12-20-2011, 02:10 PM
FYI, Ohio State received its findings from the NCAA yesterday. They will be announced by the NCAA at 3 PM with the media being given a public copy of the report at 2 PM to prepare for the teleconference.

Don't expect anything more than an added year probation and perhaps 1-3 more scholarships taken away.

That was the spin from Gene Smith and OSU. However, I don't think it was ever reality. NCAA hits us with a one year bowl ban, and Urban's not going to be very happy about this. Granted, one year isn't the end of the world. Gives him a year to play around with things, in all reality. Takes some pressure off perhaps, which isn't a bad thing for him. But still sucks.

jojo
12-20-2011, 02:48 PM
OUCH!

http://www.buckeyextra.com/content/stories/2011/12/20/ncaa-report.html

top6
12-20-2011, 02:50 PM
I don't get this. I am as casual an Ohio State fan as they come. Unless they are undefeated mid-way through the year, I generally watch 2-3 games, the Michigan game, and the bowl game. And even I knew that they should self-impose a bowl ban this year to avoid having one imposed next year. What was the downside to doing that?

IslandRed
12-20-2011, 02:50 PM
Quick summary: Bowl ban for next season, four scholarships over the next three years (on top of what OSU already self-imposed), Tressel gets the show-cause, probation extended from two years to three.

cincrazy
12-20-2011, 02:51 PM
Apparently a key witness refused to testify or it could've been much worse. The Bucks are lucky, as absurd as that might sound.

jojo
12-20-2011, 02:52 PM
Apparently a key witness refused to testify or it could've been much worse. The Bucks are likely, as absurd as that might sound.

likely=lucky?

cincrazy
12-20-2011, 02:54 PM
likely=lucky?

Yes sir! Thanks for the catch, just fixed it.

cincrazy
12-20-2011, 02:55 PM
Unlike Gene Smith, I'm willing to acknowledge my mistakes, and actually take steps to correct them.

BuckeyeRed27
12-20-2011, 03:06 PM
I don't get this. I am as casual an Ohio State fan as they come. Unless they are undefeated mid-way through the year, I generally watch 2-3 games, the Michigan game, and the bowl game. And even I knew that they should self-impose a bowl ban this year to avoid having one imposed next year. What was the downside to doing that?

Brutus knows a lot more about this than I do, but basically there has never been a school that has recieved a bowl ban with the same charges that OSU recieved.

Ohio State is the first school ever to get a bowl ban with these charges. That is why they didn't self impose a bowl ban.

cincrazy
12-20-2011, 03:17 PM
Brutus knows a lot more about this than I do, but basically there has never been a school that has recieved a bowl ban with the same charges that OSU recieved.

Ohio State is the first school ever to get a bowl ban with these charges. That is why they didn't self impose a bowl ban.

Not every situation is the same. The booster situation added another layer to it. The Buckeyes deserved every bit of this. Their coach covered up and lied. Their AD and compliance department did a poor job of monitoring the student athletes. I don't understand the "A bowl ban should never happen argument." Not directing that towards you, but towards the university. We ARE Ohio State, yes. Doesn't make us immune to this stuff. We should've been more proactive in dealing with it from the beginning.

The NCAA is operating differently now than it has in the past, and that's been known since the beginning of all this. They've been getting bad press for a while now, past precedent goes out the window when they're trying to up their credibility.

Dear Miami Hurricanes.... run for your lives.

BuckeyeRed27
12-20-2011, 03:23 PM
Not every situation is the same. The booster situation added another layer to it. The Buckeyes deserved every bit of this. Their coach covered up and lied. Their AD and compliance department did a poor job of monitoring the student athletes. I don't understand the "A bowl ban should never happen argument." Not directing that towards you, but towards the university. We ARE Ohio State, yes. Doesn't make us immune to this stuff. We should've been more proactive in dealing with it from the beginning.

The NCAA is operating differently now than it has in the past, and that's been known since the beginning of all this. They've been getting bad press for a while now, past precedent goes out the window when they're trying to up their credibility.

Dear Miami Hurricanes.... run for your lives.

I think a bowl ban is completely unreasonable here. Ohio State and the NCAA have punished everyone that has been proven to be responsible for doing something wrong. Now they are punishing people that has nothing to do with what happened. As much as the media and everyone has tried to make this a big institutional problem, nothing to that end was proven.

I would argue this is only happening because we are Ohio State. I'm not saying that Ohio State should be immune to anything. They messed up and deserve punishment, but why punishment that is more far reaching that any program has ever recieved for these charges?

The NCAA is not running any differently than it ever has. They just keep handing out inconsistent and inapproiate punishment, just like they always have.

Cardinal_Fan
12-20-2011, 03:23 PM
Dear Miami Hurricanes.... run for your lives.

You're not kidding.

Sea Ray
12-20-2011, 04:00 PM
How many Buckeye fans have come onto to this site saying over and over again that this wouldn't happen? Let this be a lesson for you. It doesn't matter if you get hit with a lack of institutional control. This can and did happen. The OSU fans underestimated the seriousness of this all the way through, many erroneously believing that the self imposed penalties would suffice. There was even a time when itwas thought that last years Sugar Bowl win would not be vacated.

The good news is Urban Meyer will handle this just fine. He'll use next year as a building year and come out firing in 2013 if the Mayans aren't correct...

jojo
12-20-2011, 04:02 PM
So is this the final tally?

Tressel gone.
Pryor gone.
5 players were suspended.
2010 completely vacated (including Bowl victory, Big 10 championship)..official record= 0-1
down 9 sholarships to occur 3 per each of the next 3 seasons (i'm assuming the NCAA added 4 more to the self imposed 5 and imposed the timeline?)
3 yr probation
Post-season Ban in 2012.


Future employers have to justify hiring Tressel-the Buckeye icon of the last decade-and the NCAA also issued a public reprimand and censure to OSU ultimately putting them on probation. And reports suggest they might have dodged a bullet. As it stands, the above is a big penalty and a statement by the NCAA.

IslandRed
12-20-2011, 04:07 PM
I would argue this is only happening because we are Ohio State. I'm not saying that Ohio State should be immune to anything. They messed up and deserve punishment, but why punishment that is more far reaching that any program has ever recieved for these charges?

I think, if we want to get right down to the core of it, the NCAA is getting even for feeling like they were played for chumps before last year's Sugar Bowl. A bowl for a bowl, so to speak.

RiverRat13
12-20-2011, 04:16 PM
I think, if we want to get right down to the core of it, the NCAA is getting even for feeling like they were played for chumps before last year's Sugar Bowl. A bowl for a bowl, so to speak.

OSU should be able to reinstate its Sugar Bowl win in that case. Yeah, I know that won't happen.

I think I'm in the minority but I really don't think what was added on is that big of a deal. Next year was a transition year anyway. Recruits aren't going to start decommitting because of missing one bowl game. Losing 15 extra practices going into what should be a big '13 season hurts a bit, but this isn't debilitating by any mean.

bucksfan2
12-20-2011, 04:31 PM
I don't have much of an issue with the ruling itself. A one year bowl band wasn't all that bad and I think the scholarships will be minimal at most.

But I do have a big problem with the timing. It irritates me that they come down with a bowl ban almost a year after the fact. The guilty parties (Herron, Posey, Prior, etc.) aren't being punished. Then the NCAA allowed the guilty parties to play in the Sugar Bowl last year. If OSU got a bowl ban it should have been for this season. Make the players who actually brought on the sanctions pay not punish the players who were innocent.

SeeinRed
12-20-2011, 05:32 PM
I don't have much of an issue with the ruling itself. A one year bowl band wasn't all that bad and I think the scholarships will be minimal at most.

But I do have a big problem with the timing. It irritates me that they come down with a bowl ban almost a year after the fact. The guilty parties (Herron, Posey, Prior, etc.) aren't being punished. Then the NCAA allowed the guilty parties to play in the Sugar Bowl last year. If OSU got a bowl ban it should have been for this season. Make the players who actually brought on the sanctions pay not punish the players who were innocent.

This I can agree with. The punishment seems to fit the crime to me, but the timing seems to add insult to injury.

izzy's dad
12-20-2011, 05:32 PM
I don't have much of an issue with the ruling itself. A one year bowl band wasn't all that bad and I think the scholarships will be minimal at most.

But I do have a big problem with the timing. It irritates me that they come down with a bowl ban almost a year after the fact. The guilty parties (Herron, Posey, Prior, etc.) aren't being punished. Then the NCAA allowed the guilty parties to play in the Sugar Bowl last year. If OSU got a bowl ban it should have been for this season. Make the players who actually brought on the sanctions pay not punish the players who were innocent.

This is what I have been thinking about lately. It seems to get lost in all of the discussion. The people that are being punished are the players that had nothing to do with the infractions, and the fans and students of the University. The NCAA does a lot of stupid things. Don't get me wrong, the punishments are deserved, but said punishments are being enforced on "innocent" people. Honestly I say go after their scholarships and wallets. If a coach lies to the NCAA he or she should be fined. If a player violates NCAA rules his or her scholarship should be altered according to the severity of the violation. Up to and including complete revocation of said athletic scholarships. Make them take out loans and build up tons of student loan debt like every other student has to do. Fine the university, coaches, staff, etc. Suspend those that are guilty and let the kids that do things the right way play the game they love, and let fans enjoy watching their teams play. I just don't understand this stuff.

Roy Tucker
12-20-2011, 05:40 PM
Not saying its right, but the NCAA has always worked this way. The boom gets lowered on the innocent while the guilty go on to pro ball. Just ask USC.

I'm not surprised by the bowl ban. All along, I thought the Buckeyes were going to be pretty severely punished. Tressel (and whoever else we'll never know) knowingly and blatantly violated some serious NCAA rules. And Gene Smith needs canned, like, yesterday.

jojo
12-20-2011, 05:48 PM
Not saying its right, but the NCAA has always worked this way. The boom gets lowered on the innocent while the guilty go on to pro ball. Just ask USC.

I'm not surprised by the bowl ban. All along, I thought the Buckeyes were going to be pretty severely punished. Tressel (and whoever else we'll never know) knowingly and blatantly violated some serious NCAA rules. And Gene Smith needs canned, like, yesterday.

Tressel isn't getting off free and clear, he took a huge hit IMHO and has a scarlet letter on his vest at least for the next several years.... also 2010 was basically erased which punishes the "guilty". It's not a perfect system but the guilty are taking a hit. Finally keep in mind that the NCAA concluded OSU was guilty of failure to monitor... so the "program" itself has to pay a debt too...

SeeinRed
12-20-2011, 05:49 PM
This is what I have been thinking about lately. It seems to get lost in all of the discussion. The people that are being punished are the players that had nothing to do with the infractions, and the fans and students of the University. The NCAA does a lot of stupid things. Don't get me wrong, the punishments are deserved, but said punishments are being enforced on "innocent" people. Honestly I say go after their scholarships and wallets. If a coach lies to the NCAA he or she should be fined. If a player violates NCAA rules his or her scholarship should be altered according to the severity of the violation. Up to and including complete revocation of said athletic scholarships. Make them take out loans and build up tons of student loan debt like every other student has to do. Fine the university, coaches, staff, etc. Suspend those that are guilty and let the kids that do things the right way play the game they love, and let fans enjoy watching their teams play. I just don't understand this stuff.

The thing is that the NCAA didn't view this as just infractions committed by individuals after the second notice of allegations. The NCAA's ruling says that OSU failed to show an increase in monitoring following the allegations, thus the Failiure to Monitor and penalties handed out to the institution. In that reguard, OSU's strategy to blame certain players while insisting it wasn't an institutional problem did not work.

Brutus
12-20-2011, 05:56 PM
Brutus knows a lot more about this than I do, but basically there has never been a school that has recieved a bowl ban with the same charges that OSU recieved.

Ohio State is the first school ever to get a bowl ban with these charges. That is why they didn't self impose a bowl ban.

That would have been true before the Failure to Monitor charge was added in October. Once that was added, it became a lot more likely (and in fact is not in any way, shape or form unprecedented).

No doubt, though, Ohio State was duped on this. They thought they would escape without a bowl ban. I thought, once the FTM charge was levied, it was 50-50. The last week, Ohio State seemed pretty confident, so I figured maybe a 'friend of a friend' may have given them reason to believe they would be in the clear. That obviously was not the case or if it was, they badly miscalculated.

IslandRed
12-20-2011, 07:18 PM
This I can agree with. The punishment seems to fit the crime to me, but the timing seems to add insult to injury.

I don't think anyone at Ohio State (except the senior class) would have lost a minute's sleep over not going to a bowl this year. A cynical person might surmise that's why the NCAA waited to hand down the bowl ban -- it isn't punishment if it doesn't hurt.

Speaking of punishment, it's also a side effect of the bowl ban that any of Ohio State's rising seniors can transfer without having to sit out a year. Realistically, most of them should be close to graduating and wouldn't want to do that.

SeeinRed
12-21-2011, 01:17 AM
I don't think anyone at Ohio State (except the senior class) would have lost a minute's sleep over not going to a bowl this year. A cynical person might surmise that's why the NCAA waited to hand down the bowl ban -- it isn't punishment if it doesn't hurt.

Speaking of punishment, it's also a side effect of the bowl ban that any of Ohio State's rising seniors can transfer without having to sit out a year. Realistically, most of them should be close to graduating and wouldn't want to do that.

I can agree with this too. It doesn't really matter to me since I don't root for OSU, but I can see why OSU fans are frustrated with how long this seemed to drag out. Honestly, the more I think about it, the length was probably added to by the second notice of allegations so it I wouldn't say it is surprising that it took this long. I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over them losing a bowl game next year though. I can just see both side I guess.

Captain Hook
12-21-2011, 04:06 AM
I don't think anyone at Ohio State (except the senior class) would have lost a minute's sleep over not going to a bowl this year. A cynical person might surmise that's why the NCAA waited to hand down the bowl ban -- it isn't punishment if it doesn't hurt.

Speaking of punishment, it's also a side effect of the bowl ban that any of Ohio State's rising seniors can transfer without having to sit out a year. Realistically, most of them should be close to graduating and wouldn't want to do that.

At 6-3 the Buckeyes controlled their own fate as far as the Rose Bowl went.I don't know how the time frame went for self imposing a bowl ban but things changed when Heron and Posey was found guilty of violations that took place this past summer right around that time.I heard on the local sports talk show here in Columbus that Gene Smith took his sweet time responding to the NCAA regarding this matter and that could've possibly led to the bad timing for OSU.My guess is that he foolishly thought he could asure the chance for the BSC Bowl this year if the Bucks qualified, by making it difficult for the NCAA to make their final ruling in time.Even if he'd heard that the bowl ban wasn't coming he had too know that the new violation would change things with the NCAA and possibly he acted on this assumption hoping to save this season not knowing that the Bucks would go on to lose their last 3 games, then hire Urban Meyer and then have him go on a recutting tear.I don't know what really happened but I can say that I have a feeling that Gene Smith is somehow to blame for this.He seems to have a knack for miscalculating things.

All I know is that this is now all in the past.No more questions and no more waiting around.Ohio State has a new coach and a bright future.All of this junk will slowly fade into history.

traderumor
12-21-2011, 09:58 AM
I don't understand the idea that the NCAA felt "duped" last year for the Bowl Game. The whole season was a coverup, not just the bowl game. And when push came to shove, the NCAA wanted those players to play and was criticized roundly for going for the money grab. Now, they are punishing the program for playing in a bowl they insisted they play in by allowing those players to remain eligible?

I guess its good to be the king. You get to play both sides of situations, benefit from letting what should be ineligible players play, then punish the program that they played for. They give back the money, the NCAA cashes the checks from their sponsor. Now there's some real corruption.

traderumor
12-21-2011, 10:02 AM
On another note, the parallel between Matta's arrival and Meyer's arrival is uncanny. The basketball program survived the exposure of O'Brien's shady dealings, I'm sure the football program under Meyer will experience similar success, if not more as he sits out a year of postseason play. And Buckeyes everywhere get to add another chip on their shoulder for their Rodney Dangerfield-like treatment out there. No respect, I tell you, they get no respect. :laugh:

LoganBuck
12-21-2011, 02:25 PM
How many Buckeye fans have come onto to this site saying over and over again that this wouldn't happen? Let this be a lesson for you. It doesn't matter if you get hit with a lack of institutional control. This can and did happen. The OSU fans underestimated the seriousness of this all the way through, many erroneously believing that the self imposed penalties would suffice. There was even a time when itwas thought that last years Sugar Bowl win would not be vacated.

The good news is Urban Meyer will handle this just fine. He'll use next year as a building year and come out firing in 2013 if the Mayans aren't correct...

Once the additional charge of Failure to Monitor was added, the additional penalties came in to play. Had nothing else emerged, I am quite sure the bowl ban and scholarship reduction would not have come into play. Rogue boosters are a completely different animal, than the original Tattogate scandal.

Sea Ray
12-21-2011, 03:55 PM
Once the additional charge of Failure to Monitor was added, the additional penalties came in to play. Had nothing else emerged, I am quite sure the bowl ban and scholarship reduction would not have come into play. Rogue boosters are a completely different animal, than the original Tattogate scandal.

No large football school could survive the scrutiny the NCAA put on OSU. I'm glad it's over and they can move on

MWM
12-21-2011, 04:00 PM
I doubt that

Sea Ray
12-21-2011, 04:20 PM
I doubt that

Can you be more specific? What are you referring to?

LoganBuck
12-21-2011, 07:04 PM
No large football school could survive the scrutiny the NCAA put on OSU. I'm glad it's over and they can move on

Agreed

Newport Red
12-28-2011, 03:07 PM
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-1229-pac-12-big-ten-20111229,0,4803434.story

Big 10 and PAC are enhancing their alliance. It would be nice to see a game at Soldier Field.

BuckeyeRed27
12-28-2011, 05:34 PM
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-1229-pac-12-big-ten-20111229,0,4803434.story

Big 10 and PAC are enhancing their alliance. It would be nice to see a game at Soldier Field.

This is a good idea and I'm not really sure why it wasn't happening already. It sounds like the BIG will stay at 8 conference games in football instead of going to 9 as planned.

traderumor
12-28-2011, 08:39 PM
No large football school could survive the scrutiny the NCAA put on OSU. I'm glad it's over and they can move onA good analogy is the IRS. Do things right in the first place and you keep them away, because if they come in and do an audit of a business, they're gonna find something to justify their existence.

jojo
12-28-2011, 10:17 PM
A good analogy is the IRS. Do things right in the first place and you keep them away, because if they come in and do an audit of a business, they're gonna find something to justify their existence.

Not everyone who gets audited gets penalized.

traderumor
12-29-2011, 11:47 AM
Not everyone who gets audited gets penalized.
Jojo, I was part owner of a CPA firm for a dozen years with 20 years experience as a CPA. Audits turn up something. The IRS may choose to not require an adjustment, but a large business (analogous to a large university) is going to have audit issues if the IRS comes sniffing around.

jojo
12-29-2011, 11:50 AM
Jojo, I was part owner of a CPA firm for a dozen years with 20 years experience as a CPA. Audits turn up something. The IRS may choose to not require an adjustment, but a large business (analogous to a large university) is going to have audit issues if the IRS comes sniffing around.

Then it's not a perfect analogy.

bucksfan2
12-29-2011, 12:21 PM
Jojo, I was part owner of a CPA firm for a dozen years with 20 years experience as a CPA. Audits turn up something. The IRS may choose to not require an adjustment, but a large business (analogous to a large university) is going to have audit issues if the IRS comes sniffing around.

If the IRS shows up at your doorstep they more times than not are going to find something. Maybe its a small bookkeeping error or something else all together. I had a coworker who owned a farm go through an audit a couple of years ago. He was told by his accountant that if the IRS shows up you will ultimately owe something.

Reds/Flyers Fan
12-29-2011, 12:53 PM
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-1229-pac-12-big-ten-20111229,0,4803434.story

Big 10 and PAC are enhancing their alliance. It would be nice to see a game at Soldier Field.

But I would hope it's not Ohio State giving up a home game to play in Chicago. Soldier Field is nice, but it's got nothing on about eight of the 12 B1G on-campus stadiums.

I'll say this about this new arrangement: First time the Buckeyes play in Folsom Field in Boulder, I'm there. Same with Eugene, Corvallis and Salt Lake.

traderumor
12-29-2011, 01:05 PM
Then it's not a perfect analogy.No analogy is. All analogies break down when carried to their logical extreme, which is why readers should use them as intended. Can we be done now? :)

BuckeyeRed27
12-29-2011, 01:17 PM
But I would hope it's not Ohio State giving up a home game to play in Chicago. Soldier Field is nice, but it's got nothing on about eight of the 12 B1G on-campus stadiums.

I'll say this about this new arrangement: First time the Buckeyes play in Folsom Field in Boulder, I'm there. Same with Eugene, Corvallis and Salt Lake.

Obviously a lot has to be ironed out, but from the sounds of it the bulk of the football games are going to be played at the regular home stadiums. It sounds like basketball will be played in a lot of NBA arenas and have triple headers and more tournament style basketball.

They said they want to have "competitive considerations" for the football games so I wonder how far in advance they are going to schedule the games. I want to see good games but I don't want to see OSU vs. USC/Oregon every year.

Reds/Flyers Fan
12-29-2011, 01:34 PM
Obviously a lot has to be ironed out, but from the sounds of it the bulk of the football games are going to be played at the regular home stadiums. It sounds like basketball will be played in a lot of NBA arenas and have triple headers and more tournament style basketball.

They said they want to have "competitive considerations" for the football games so I wonder how far in advance they are going to schedule the games. I want to see good games but I don't want to see OSU vs. USC/Oregon every year.

Since OSU already has a home-and-home scheduled with Oklahoma in 2016 and 2017, and another with Georgia in 2020-2021, you can bet that the B1G/PAC schedule makers won't force the Buckeyes to play one of the PAC's power teams those years. OSU has already said that Oklahoma series isn't going anywhere and their PAC12 game will be scheduled accordingly. Expect to see Arizona or Washington State - or whatever teams aren't expected to be elite that year - instead of USC, Oregon or Stanford.

As for basketball: There is nothing worse than watching college basketball games in half-empty, disinterested NBA arenas. Leave them on campus as much as possible or you'll be playing in front of quiet crowds in cavernous pro arenas with zero atmosphere.

BuckeyeRed27
12-29-2011, 01:43 PM
Since OSU already has a home-and-home scheduled with Oklahoma in 2016 and 2017, and another with Georgia in 2020-2021, you can bet that the B1G/PAC schedule makers won't force the Buckeyes to play one of the PAC's power teams those years. OSU has already said that Oklahoma series isn't going anywhere and their PAC12 game will be scheduled accordingly. Expect to see Arizona or Washington State - or whatever teams aren't expected to be elite that year - instead of USC, Oregon or Stanford.

As for basketball: There is nothing worse than watching college basketball games in half-empty, disinterested NBA arenas. Leave them on campus as much as possible or you'll be playing in front of quiet crowds in cavernous pro arenas with zero atmosphere.

I agree about the basketball stuff. I hate those preseason tournament games at neutral sites.

Maybe if you had USC, UCLA and Cal playing Ohio State, Michigan State and Indiana at Staples on the same day it might work, but even then I'd prefer to see those games in the home stadium.

jojo
12-29-2011, 01:57 PM
No analogy is. All analogies break down when carried to their logical extreme, which is why readers should use them as intended. Can we be done now? :)

This isn't about logical extremes. OSU wasn't a victim of nitpicking which really seems to be the underlying assertion that no program can survive an NCAA investigation without penalty (and the IRS analogy).

That's why the analogy broke down.

traderumor
12-29-2011, 02:25 PM
This isn't about logical extremes. OSU wasn't a victim of nitpicking which really seems to be the underlying assertion that no program can survive an NCAA investigation without penalty (and the IRS analogy).

That's why the analogy broke down.So, I guess not.
What I read the original poster saying was that some things go under the radar in all major programs, like fake or overpaying jobs and generous boosters. This was in the early 90s. However, once the digging starts, look out. That was the premise of my analogy.

For example, I asked questions as a temp when I was a senior in college about payments to a certain OSU bball player. I got a scowl from my supervisor and was told I really didn't want to know the answer to that question.

Maybe the original poster can chime in on the intention of his words.

BuckeyeRed27
01-02-2012, 02:39 PM
That was an inspired half of football. Ohio State should win this game. They can run all they want and are better in the trenches. So I'm sure they will have at least two stupid turnovers and give up another big special teams plays in the second half.

MWM
01-02-2012, 02:54 PM
Turnovers and special teams are hurting the Big Ten teams in all the games right now. Nebraska is moving the ball easily on SC and seems to turn it over or do something stupid when they're ready to score. GA had a 90 yard punt return right before halftime as well against MSU.

Man, Miller needs to get out of the pocket. They need to call plays designed to get him out of it. Way too much straight drop back for him.

MWM
01-02-2012, 02:59 PM
These Buckeyes are terrible and have no business in a bowl game.

BuckeyeRed27
01-02-2012, 03:00 PM
And there is the special teams td right after a questionable hold kills a drive

Roy Tucker
01-02-2012, 03:01 PM
Good lord, can the special teams be any worse?

And roll Miller out. Drop back passes are killing them.

MWM
01-02-2012, 03:07 PM
They've had over a month and they look completely unprepared. Yes, this coaching staff is in WAY over their heads.

BuckeyeRed27
01-02-2012, 03:10 PM
They've had over a month and they look completely unprepared. Yes, this coaching staff is in WAY over their heads.

This is like the reverse of the 2009 wisconsin game. Totally out played the other team but giving up special teams and penalties.

Roy Tucker
01-02-2012, 03:11 PM
Yeah. Florida has made half time adjustments and OSU has no answer.

MWM
01-02-2012, 03:13 PM
It's been a weird day all the way around. South Carolina scored 2 points on a blocked extra point return. They then scored on a hail mary before halftime. They've been mostly shut down otherwise. FL has two special teams TDs, and GA has a 90 yard punt return that was one of the worst covered I've ever seen. Special teams is the easy stuff that any good program should get right.

MWM
01-02-2012, 03:18 PM
This is laughable. I don't even know why I'm watching. OSU is awful, but I think FL is even more awful. A true battle of futility.

MWM
01-02-2012, 03:38 PM
LOL, on that flanker screen that they saw coming, even I saw it coming. Hall was lined up a full yard behind the the slot receiver.

I don't think OSU has outplayed FL at all. I just don't think either team has shown much of anything. FL hasn't made mistakes and so has kind of outplayed OSU by default.

I know one thing. This is one of the ugliest, most boring bowl games I've ever seen.

Roy Tucker
01-02-2012, 03:40 PM
What a stone age offense. I can't watch this any more. What's on HGTV?

MWM
01-02-2012, 03:44 PM
What a stone age offense. I can't watch this any more. What's on HGTV?

Heck, I'd rather watch the home shopping network.

You'd think with a month to prepare after having a full season of watching this, they'd have made SOME improvements. But this might be their worst game of the year. Muschamp must be over there laughing thinking this is the easiest win he's ever had.

RiverRat13
01-02-2012, 03:53 PM
OSU actually looked good running between the tackles. Don't know why they went away from it.

BuckeyeRed27
01-02-2012, 03:54 PM
OSU actually looked good running between the tackles. Don't know why they went away from it.

Got behind two touchdowns

MWM
01-02-2012, 04:02 PM
Mich St - Georgia turning into a really good game. MSU didn't do anything in the first half. An 80 yard passing TD and a 90 yard punt return within a couple of minutes put them in a big hole. But they've dominated the second half and looked like the clear better team.

I really like Mark Richt, so I'm happy to see him preserve his job. He's one of the good guys in college football, IMO.

jojo
01-02-2012, 04:06 PM
Mich St - Georgia turning into a really good game. MSU didn't do anything in the first half. An 80 yard passing TD and a 90 yard punt return within a couple of minutes put them in a big hole. But they've dominated the second half and looked like the clear better team.

I really like Mark Richt, so I'm happy to see him preserve his job. He's one of the good guys in college football, IMO.

This has been an awesome game.....you couldn't pay me to be a tailback in his one... As for OSU and UF, it's puzzling how they've had the seasons theyve had given their talent...

MWM
01-02-2012, 04:09 PM
Mich St D-Line total domination, but GA offense making adjustments well. That was a great play call on that TD. Evenly matched teams in this game.

The Spartans achilles heal has been the big play. They've given up two 3 pass plays more than 60 yards, one being an 80 yard TD. That punt return was a killer too. Year in and year out it seems this is waht Big Ten team do in bowl games. They always seem to fall prey to special teams and big plays.

MWM
01-02-2012, 04:11 PM
This has been an awesome game.....you couldn't pay me to be a tailback in his one... As for OSU and UF, it's puzzling ow they've had the seasons have hd given the talent...

Worst bowl game ever. FL is awful, but OSU was worse.

But again, two special teams TDs wound up being the difference.

jojo
01-02-2012, 04:12 PM
Mich St D-Line total domination, but GA offense making adjustments well. That was a great play call on that TD. Evenly matched teams in this game.

The Spartans achilles heal has been the big play. They've given up two 3 pass plays more than 60 yards, one being an 80 yard TD. That punt return was a killer too. Year in and year out it seems this is waht Big Ten team do in bowl games. They always seem to fall prey to special teams and big plays.

You've condemned over signing in the past... Special teams is one place this might manifest as a tangible advantage.

MWM
01-02-2012, 04:14 PM
Nebraska totally outclassed in the second half. I like Bo Pellini, but his team seriously underachieved this year. They didn't dominate, but they outplayed SC in the first half by a decent amount. Then they came out and were dominated in the second half. He's a little too hot tempered, IMO.

MWM
01-02-2012, 04:15 PM
You've condemned over signing in the past... Special teams is one place this might manifest as a tangible advantage.

It's possible, but I've always thought special teams is mostly about just being smart and disciplined and coaching.

I think there is a serious coaching gap between the SEC and Big Ten right now. Big Ten athletic departments are seriously stuck in the past.

MWM
01-02-2012, 04:16 PM
Man, that's a tough INT there for MSU. That's going to really hurt. They were driving to potentially tie the game.

It's too bad one of these teams has to lose.

MWM
01-02-2012, 04:19 PM
Wow, that's a tough PI call in that situation, but it was probably the right one.

MWM
01-02-2012, 04:31 PM
Kirk Cousins really impressed me in the conference championship game, and he's impressed me in this one too. He's probably not going to be a star in the NFL, but he could be one of those smart, solid journeyman QBs. He could become a really good backup.

traderumor
01-02-2012, 04:35 PM
It's possible, but I've always thought special teams is mostly about just being smart and disciplined and coaching.

I think there is a serious coaching gap between the SEC and Big Ten right now. Big Ten athletic departments are seriously stuck in the past.Ohio State says if you can't beat them join them

But wouldn't it be more a talent gap?

There also has been the climate argument for why the midwest teams have to be built for cold weather football

LoganBuck
01-02-2012, 04:43 PM
Glad the OSU nightmare season is finally over. Games are over, suspensions done, sanctions imposed, new coach in place, recruiting back in gear. Things are looking up.

That game was totally unwatchable, Florida was even worse than Ohio State on offense.

Furthermore, I am glad that I never have to see JB Shugarts lineup at tackle ever again. I know that they have no one behind him to fill in, but I can't accept that kind of play from a four year starter at tackle.

Wipe the slate, shake the etch a sketch, break the molds, burn the blueprints. Tomorrow is a new day.

MWM
01-02-2012, 04:43 PM
Ohio State says if you can't beat them join them

But wouldn't it be more a talent gap?

There also has been the climate argument for why the midwest teams have to be built for cold weather football

Sure, there's a talent gap top to bottom, but I don't think it's that great at the top and mid-part of the league. The good programs in the Big 10 put plenty of players in the NFL.

I think the whole cold weather argument has some merit to it as you can't play the fast, SEC type of game week in and week out in bad weather, but that weather really only comes into play the last few weeks of the regular season.

So while I think it matters some, I think it's more there's too many relics in the Big Ten who choose to play a style of ball that's outdated. They're too stubborn to change as opposed to deliberately choosing their style based on the elements. But there's plenty of talent in the midwest, just look at the NFL for proof.

The SEC as a whole has embraced modern style college football. Heck, most of the country has. But many of the Big 10 programs are still playing like it was 1985. At least that's how I see it. It's an opinion.

TheBigLebowski
01-02-2012, 04:47 PM
That game was totally unwatchable, Florida was even worse than Ohio State on offense.



Um, no we weren't. Not even close. We were a bit better, actually.

MWM
01-02-2012, 04:48 PM
Really dumb pass by Cousins there.

MWM
01-02-2012, 04:52 PM
Not sure what GA was thinking there. Got a little too conservative. That was a Tressel-esque move. You don't just settle for a FG over 40 yards, especially with a kicker who missed 12 of them this year.

MWM
01-02-2012, 05:02 PM
Ugly series by MSU there. The knee down really hurt, but after that a couple of really bad play calls.

That's 2 straight bad snaps on FG attempts, the first on the tying TD, and now in OT. Got lucky on both of them. Hope it doesn't come back to bite them.

MWM
01-02-2012, 05:17 PM
Amazing game. You've got to give MSU credit for overcoming a 16-0 deficit and GA credit for stopping the bleeding and retaking the lead.

This was a great exhibition of what's great about college football. Both teams playing their hearts out. It's too bad one team had to walk away with a loss.

Buckeye33
01-02-2012, 05:20 PM
Furthermore, I am glad that I never have to see JB Shugarts lineup at tackle ever again. I know that they have no one behind him to fill in, but I can't accept that kind of play from a four year starter at tackle.

Every false start from now until I pass on from this earth by an OSU lineman will be referred to as a Shugarts by me. The game was so awful to watch that myself and some friends were actually rooting that he would get at least one more in before the game ended. Sad I know, but :eek:

jojo
01-02-2012, 05:22 PM
Amazing game. You've got to give MSU credit for overcoming a 16-0 deficit and GA credit for stopping the bleeding and retaking the lead.

This was a great exhibition of what's great about college football. Both teams playing their hearts out. It's too bad one team had to walk away with a loss.

Congrats to Mark Dantonio. No tears lost for Thug Nation.

MWM
01-02-2012, 05:37 PM
This just in, Montee Ball is REALLY good.

RiverRat13
01-02-2012, 06:18 PM
Got behind two touchdowns

Ohio State went away from its power game earlier than that. Tried to get too cute with the playcalling (end around for Posey?) when between the tackle running was moving the ball.

IslandRed
01-02-2012, 06:41 PM
They've had over a month and they look completely unprepared. Yes, this coaching staff is in WAY over their heads.

Whatever you got from your OC during the season, safe to say it wasn't going to be bettered while he's looking to sell his house and find another job.


Sure, there's a talent gap top to bottom, but I don't think it's that great at the top and mid-part of the league. The good programs in the Big 10 put plenty of players in the NFL.

I think the whole cold weather argument has some merit to it as you can't play the fast, SEC type of game week in and week out in bad weather, but that weather really only comes into play the last few weeks of the regular season.

So while I think it matters some, I think it's more there's too many relics in the Big Ten who choose to play a style of ball that's outdated. They're too stubborn to change as opposed to deliberately choosing their style based on the elements. But there's plenty of talent in the midwest, just look at the NFL for proof.

The SEC as a whole has embraced modern style college football. Heck, most of the country has. But many of the Big 10 programs are still playing like it was 1985. At least that's how I see it. It's an opinion.

The funny thing is, LSU and Alabama are playing offensive football that would fit in perfectly in the Big Ten. Change the uniforms and you couldn't tell them from the Ohio State of ten years ago. They're just doing it better than anyone else right now. We can draw up all the fancy Xs and Os we want, but there's still no substitute for lining up and kicking the opponent's tail around the field.

MWM
01-02-2012, 08:14 PM
Wisconsin can't tackle, like at all.

What I don't understand is why they keep running the same defensive coverage. They haven't changed anything they're doing and it's not working. Mix it up a little. They have nothing to lose, it's not like they're stopping anything now.

MWM
01-02-2012, 08:33 PM
/laughing at Abbrederos. He deserved to lose that ball. He catches like a 30 yard reception, he's at the sideline with 3 defenders and decides he wants to be a tough guy and lowered his shoulder. Just a bonehead play a smart player would never make.

And Bielema calling his second timeout less than 5 minutes into the half after that kickoff touchback was just dumb. Wisconsin was outcoached and outsmarted by a really good team, but not one I think they should lose to.

BuckeyeRed27
01-02-2012, 08:42 PM
/laughing at Abbrederos. He deserved to lose that ball. He catches like a 30 yard reception, he's at the sideline with 3 defenders and decides he wants to be a tough guy and lowered his shoulder. Just a bonehead play a smart player would never make.

And Bielema calling his second timeout less than 5 minutes into the half after that kickoff touchback was just dumb. Wisconsin was outcoached and outsmarted by a really good team, but not one I think they should lose to.

Fumble was just bad luck. That ball goes out of bounds 99 out of 100 times.

Hate when something stupid like that ending with the spike ruins a great game.

MWM
01-02-2012, 08:49 PM
Fumble was just bad luck. That ball goes out of bounds 99 out of 100 times.

Hate when something stupid like that ending with the spike ruins a great game.

Oh, it was definitely bad luck and they probably tie the game there. My problem is that he was running toward the sideline and looked up and at the last second thought he give the gut a bump. He wasn't trying to get more yards as he was clearly going out of bounds, it was pure bravado.

Bielema is just not a smart coach, which is weird for a place like Wisconsin. He does a lot of things that are just not smart. That timeout he wasted was so pointless. If you're going to take the timeout, just throw the challenge flag. Then the refs could have told you to him it couldn't be challenged and he doesn't lose a timeout. It would be different if they hadn't burned on already. There was still 11:30 minutes left in the 3rd quarter.

Then the spike at the end of the game was bonehead. They were at the 25 yard line, and while the odds are still against them, they could have at least had a chance.

He's just not a cerebral coach. Oregon is an excellent team, so I'm not trying to take anything away from them.

Brutus
01-02-2012, 08:59 PM
I think there is a serious coaching gap between the SEC and Big Ten right now. Big Ten athletic departments are seriously stuck in the past.

I wanted to bring this up because it's completely apt.

This past fall, I was studying athletic department finances for a freelance story on college revenue and expenses I was doing. As an aside to the story, I was comparing the SEC and B1G expenditures on coaching. The average salary department-wide spent by SEC schools on coaching staffs of male sports at the university was just shy of $16 million. For the Big Ten, it was about $9 million.

As a conference, the Big Ten actually earned about $1 million in revenue more per school than did the SEC. So clearly, the Big Ten has the money to compete and they're not doing so.

Mutaman
01-02-2012, 09:09 PM
Oh, it was definitely bad luck and they probably tie the game there. My problem is that he was running toward the sideline and looked up and at the last second thought he give the gut a bump. He wasn't trying to get more yards as he was clearly going out of bounds, it was pure bravado.

Bielema is just not a smart coach, which is weird for a place like Wisconsin. He does a lot of things that are just not smart. That timeout he wasted was so pointless. If you're going to take the timeout, just throw the challenge flag. Then the refs could have told you to him it couldn't be challenged and he doesn't lose a timeout. It would be different if they hadn't burned on already. There was still 11:30 minutes left in the 3rd quarter.

Then the spike at the end of the game was bonehead. They were at the 25 yard line, and while the odds are still against them, they could have at least had a chance.

He's just not a cerebral coach. Oregon is an excellent team, so I'm not trying to take anything away from them.

That's a good analysis. On the other side of the coin, Bielema has had the Badgers down to the wire in two straight Rose Bowls against two pretty good teams. And hes done it while running a clean program at a school with high academic standards.

MWM
01-02-2012, 09:25 PM
That's a good analysis. On the other side of the coin, Bielema has had the Badgers down to the wire in two straight Rose Bowls against two pretty good teams. And hes done it while running a clean program at a school with high academic standards.

Oh, he does some things well. It's not like he's a bad coach. He's just not a very cerebral one. He's not the best at coaching in close games.

MWM
01-02-2012, 09:28 PM
I wanted to bring this up because it's completely apt.

This past fall, I was studying athletic department finances for a freelance story on college revenue and expenses I was doing. As an aside to the story, I was comparing the SEC and B1G expenditures on coaching. The average salary department-wide spent by SEC schools on coaching staffs of male sports at the university was just shy of $16 million. For the Big Ten, it was about $9 million.

As a conference, the Big Ten actually earned about $1 million in revenue more per school than did the SEC. So clearly, the Big Ten has the money to compete and they're not doing so.

Interesting stuff. I also think it's the type of coach they go after. The Big Ten is so obsessed with "tradition" and most of the programs tend to do a lot of promoting within and finding guys that fit the Big 10 tradition. There's not a lot of progressive thinkers in the Big 10, IMO.

MWM
01-02-2012, 10:59 PM
Andrew Luck sure does make it look easy.

Mario-Rijo
01-03-2012, 11:45 AM
I wanted to bring this up because it's completely apt.

This past fall, I was studying athletic department finances for a freelance story on college revenue and expenses I was doing. As an aside to the story, I was comparing the SEC and B1G expenditures on coaching. The average salary department-wide spent by SEC schools on coaching staffs of male sports at the university was just shy of $16 million. For the Big Ten, it was about $9 million.

As a conference, the Big Ten actually earned about $1 million in revenue more per school than did the SEC. So clearly, the Big Ten has the money to compete and they're not doing so.

While true it comes down to getting the players and when you are recruiting what amounts to 2 full seasons worth of players more over a 10 year period than everyone else you are gonna have a distinct advantage in getting both more quantity and obviously more quality. The NCAA needs to draw some ovbious lines for everyone and one of the biggest is roster restriction numbers, and no over recruiting. Lame to crown the SEC and talk them up every year while ignoring they have a massive advantage in recruiting. Not to mention the draw they already have in the weather. Time to level the playing field a bit.

To tie it in to what you are saying here, does it make a difference what guys are being paid if you are handicapped from the beginning?

bucksfan2
01-03-2012, 11:50 AM
I wanted to bring this up because it's completely apt.

This past fall, I was studying athletic department finances for a freelance story on college revenue and expenses I was doing. As an aside to the story, I was comparing the SEC and B1G expenditures on coaching. The average salary department-wide spent by SEC schools on coaching staffs of male sports at the university was just shy of $16 million. For the Big Ten, it was about $9 million.

As a conference, the Big Ten actually earned about $1 million in revenue more per school than did the SEC. So clearly, the Big Ten has the money to compete and they're not doing so.

IMO this is a little overblown. The Big 10 has been down recently but for the most part OSU has been the premier program. Lets not forget that just last year they knocked off Arkansas in a bowl game. The problem is the other big time Big 10 programs have been down. Michigan made a huge mistake with the Rich Rod era, PSU let Paterno stay on a decade too long, and Wisconsin has just been on the wrong side of last minute scoring drives in the past two rose bowls.

I do think that the differences lie in over-signing and also the more fertile recruiting home states in the SEC. With the exception of Ohio and maybe Pennsylvania the recruiting home states of the Big 10 don't hold a candle to those in the SEC. It gives them a major advantage over everyone in the Big 10 who isn't thought of as a traditional power. If things start to get back to normal I think you will see OSU, UM and maybe PSU rise to the national forefront, competitive with the top dogs of the SEC.

Sea Ray
01-03-2012, 11:50 AM
Amazing game. You've got to give MSU credit for overcoming a 16-0 deficit and GA credit for stopping the bleeding and retaking the lead.

This was a great exhibition of what's great about college football. Both teams playing their hearts out. It's too bad one team had to walk away with a loss.

Kudos to MSU for sure.

I think they really got screwed. They were co-Big Ten champs in every sense yet somehow they were knocked down to Bowl bid #4 from the Big Ten. That's not right but I appreciate them giving us a great game to watch

Sea Ray
01-03-2012, 11:54 AM
IMO this is a little overblown. The Big 10 has been down recently but for the most part OSU has been the premier program. Lets not forget that just last year they knocked off Arkansas in a bowl game. The problem is the other big time Big 10 programs have been down. Michigan made a huge mistake with the Rich Rod era, PSU let Paterno stay on a decade too long, and Wisconsin has just been on the wrong side of last minute scoring drives in the past two Rose bowls.

I do think that the differences lie in over-signing and also the more fertile recruiting home states in the SEC. With the exception of Ohio and maybe Pennsylvania the recruiting home states of the Big 10 don't hold a candle to those in the SEC. It gives them a major advantage over everyone in the Big 10 who isn't thought of as a traditional power. If things start to get back to normal I think you will see OSU, UM and maybe PSU rise to the national forefront, competitive with the top dogs of the SEC.

The Big 10 hasn't just been down recently. It's been down for awhile. The reason Mich went to RichRod was because Lloyd Carr wasn't getting it done. The problem goes way back. Ohio State has been very good but the rest of the conference hasn't held up their end of the bargain

I agree with you that the geography of the Big Ten is troublesome. The top recruits just don't come from Big Ten states

Brutus
01-03-2012, 12:30 PM
IMO this is a little overblown. The Big 10 has been down recently but for the most part OSU has been the premier program. Lets not forget that just last year they knocked off Arkansas in a bowl game. The problem is the other big time Big 10 programs have been down. Michigan made a huge mistake with the Rich Rod era, PSU let Paterno stay on a decade too long, and Wisconsin has just been on the wrong side of last minute scoring drives in the past two rose bowls.

I do think that the differences lie in over-signing and also the more fertile recruiting home states in the SEC. With the exception of Ohio and maybe Pennsylvania the recruiting home states of the Big 10 don't hold a candle to those in the SEC. It gives them a major advantage over everyone in the Big 10 who isn't thought of as a traditional power. If things start to get back to normal I think you will see OSU, UM and maybe PSU rise to the national forefront, competitive with the top dogs of the SEC.

Not by coincidence, Ohio State has always been willing to pay its coaches at market value (Tressel, Meyer, Matta, Foster, etc.). In fact, it's now willing to pay SEC money to their assistants right now.

Your point about Ohio State is exactly my point... programs that are willing to pay for the best coaches are more likely to compete for the best recruits and win more games.

Hoosier Red
01-03-2012, 01:13 PM
I wanted to bring this up because it's completely apt.

This past fall, I was studying athletic department finances for a freelance story on college revenue and expenses I was doing. As an aside to the story, I was comparing the SEC and B1G expenditures on coaching. The average salary department-wide spent by SEC schools on coaching staffs of male sports at the university was just shy of $16 million. For the Big Ten, it was about $9 million.

As a conference, the Big Ten actually earned about $1 million in revenue more per school than did the SEC. So clearly, the Big Ten has the money to compete and they're not doing so.

That's interesting Brutus, I think it would be interesting to break that down sport by sport. One sport in particular like baseball, which is a very big deal in the SEC is an almost afterthought in the B1G Ten. I'd venture to guess that SEC baseball coaches are paid close to $1 million, but their counterparts in the B1G Ten are closer to low 6 figures. The sports where the B1G Ten fields teams but the SEC doesn't like men's soccer and wrestling demand a much lower payroll.

Also, I imagine a unique case like Joe Paterno at Penn State, where he made less than $1 Million/year I believe would make a significant impact. It also might explain part of the additional reluctance for Penn State to push him out until this year. You'd be losing a significant source of revenue and seeing your expenses increase 5 -10 fold.

dabvu2498
01-03-2012, 01:32 PM
That's interesting Brutus, I think it would be interesting to break that down sport by sport. One sport in particular like baseball, which is a very big deal in the SEC is an almost afterthought in the B1G Ten. I'd venture to guess that SEC baseball coaches are paid close to $1 million, but their counterparts in the B1G Ten are closer to low 6 figures. The sports where the B1G Ten fields teams but the SEC doesn't like men's soccer and wrestling demand a much lower payroll.


Yeah, I was thinking the same. Baseball skews it a bit. I'd bet that every baseball coach in the SEC, except maybe Henderson at UK makes more than every baseball coach in the Big 10. But that should be countered by the fact that the Big 10 sponsors more men's sports than the SEC.

The other thing to factor in: Sabin, Miles, Petrino, possibly Richt, Calipari and Donovan probably all make more than anyone in the Big 10 save Matta and Meyer.

I'd expect D'Antonio will be in line for a substantial raise soon, and deservingly so.

BuckeyeRed27
01-03-2012, 10:38 PM
Denard Robinson makes Tim Tebow look like Peyton Manning. I have never seen so many crappy throws rewarded with such excellent results.

OUReds
01-18-2012, 03:32 PM
Sanctions certainly haven't slowed down Meyer's recruiting. 3 more top 100ish recruits committed this week, David Perkins LB (a former Notre Dame commit), Joey O'Conner (a former Penn State commit, who left after the scandal broke), and Taylor Decker (an outright theft from Notre Dame). Since Meyer took over the class has gone from a mid twenties to a top 5 ranking.

A couple things are becoming clear here. One, Meyer is a darn good recruiter with a very, VERY different (read: aggressive) style then Tressel. Two, Meyer isn't afraid to poach a recruit if he smells blood in the water.

traderumor
01-18-2012, 04:15 PM
Sanctions certainly haven't slowed down Meyer's recruiting. 3 more top 100ish recruits committed this week, David Perkins LB (a former Notre Dame commit), Joey O'Conner (a former Penn State commit, who left after the scandal broke), and Taylor Decker (an outright theft from Notre Dame). Since Meyer took over the class has gone from a mid twenties to a top 5 ranking.

A couple things are becoming clear here. One, Meyer is a darn good recruiter with a very, VERY different (read: aggressive) style then Tressel. Two, Meyer isn't afraid to poach a recruit if he smells blood in the water.I don't know if I'd call it poaching since this is his first recruiting season. I wonder if these were recruits high on the Buckeyes until the mess, but now are back on board with that all settled?

Brutus
01-18-2012, 04:17 PM
Until there is a signature on the piece of paper, I don't think it's poaching. Verbal commitments are non-binding. If someone commits to buy something but doesn't put it in writing or make a down payment, if that product is purchased by someone else, then no harm no foul.

Danny Serafini
01-18-2012, 04:44 PM
I wonder if these were recruits high on the Buckeyes until the mess, but now are back on board with that all settled?

Don't know about the other two, but Decker wasn't even recruited by Tressel. That's all on Meyer prying him out of there.

BuckeyeRed27
01-18-2012, 04:46 PM
Don't know about the other two, but Decker wasn't even recruited by Tressel. That's all on Meyer prying him out of there.

I'm sure Meyer helped, but the Notre Dame coaches (Hinton I believe) that just joined the staff I think had a lot more to do with landing Decker.

traderumor
01-18-2012, 07:16 PM
BTW, Tressel got his share of late signings like this, kept going after verbal committment guys, lost some also. Its brutal out there.

OUReds
01-20-2012, 04:05 PM
I just can't agree with you there Trade. Tressel had his own unique strengths as a recruiter, but aggressiveness and closing the deal on elite talent late in the recruiting season wasn't among them.

*BaseClogger*
01-21-2012, 03:46 AM
I just can't agree with you there Trade. Tressel had his own unique strengths as a recruiter, but aggressiveness and closing the deal on elite talent late in the recruiting season wasn't among them.

QFT

WMR
01-21-2012, 04:37 AM
Lets not forget that just last year they knocked off Arkansas in a bowl game.

No they didn't.

BTW: I have zero doubt that Coach Meyer is going to absolutely kill it in Columbus. It's going to be fun to see you Buckeyes back in the national championship versus someone from the SEC. You guys are going to be great. Just gotta get through this next year.


PPS: As an SEC underdog, it has been sort of amusing to watch the Gators get so pissed off. :D

traderumor
01-21-2012, 02:24 PM
I just can't agree with you there Trade. Tressel had his own unique strengths as a recruiter, but aggressiveness and closing the deal on elite talent late in the recruiting season wasn't among them.That isn't what I was saying. He won some on late decommits that became available, he lost some, but he did get some of these. They weren't poaches then, kids changed their mind he jumped on it. He lost some that way also. That is all I was saying.

And I think all Meyer is doing is getting kids that had given up on OSU due to termoil and now are buying in after committing somewhere else. This will probably be a one year dynamic.

cincrazy
01-21-2012, 04:59 PM
No they didn't.

BTW: I have zero doubt that Coach Meyer is going to absolutely kill it in Columbus. It's going to be fun to see you Buckeyes back in the national championship versus someone from the SEC. You guys are going to be great. Just gotta get through this next year.


PPS: As an SEC underdog, it has been sort of amusing to watch the Gators get so pissed off. :D

And John Calipari has never coached in a Final Four :)

OUReds
01-21-2012, 06:18 PM
That isn't what I was saying. He won some on late decommits that became available, he lost some, but he did get some of these. They weren't poaches then, kids changed their mind he jumped on it. He lost some that way also. That is all I was saying.

Nothing like this. Nabbed another one from Penn State yesterday (link (http://www.elevenwarriors.com/2012/01/williams-makes-23)). Obviously there are extenuating circumstances here, especially for the Penn State kids, but Meyer deserves a ton of credit. Call it what you will, he's flipped a ton of great recruits from other schools to Ohio State. I don't think anyone else could have put this class together in so short a time, even under normal OSU circumstances, let alone what the program has gone through the past 12 months.

traderumor
01-21-2012, 07:47 PM
Nothing like this. Nabbed another one from Penn State yesterday (link (http://www.elevenwarriors.com/2012/01/williams-makes-23)). Obviously there are extenuating circumstances here, especially for the Penn State kids, but Meyer deserves a ton of credit. Call it what you will, he's flipped a ton of great recruits from other schools to Ohio State. I don't think anyone else could have put this class together in so short a time, even under normal OSU circumstances, let alone what the program has gone through the past 12 months.All that may be true, but this is a one shot deal due to transition. I'm not trying to steal thunder, just noting that "poaching" is an unfair description of what is going on.

WMR
01-21-2012, 09:00 PM
And John Calipari has never coached in a Final Four :)

Actually his first one was last year. ;)

Puffy
01-24-2012, 11:24 AM
I'm sure Meyer helped, but the Notre Dame coaches (Hinton I believe) that just joined the staff I think had a lot more to do with landing Decker.

Ed Warriner too. It was a combination of Warriner and Hinton were his potential position coach and lead recruiter at ND and both left for Ohio State.

WVRed
01-24-2012, 02:13 PM
I just can't agree with you there Trade. Tressel had his own unique strengths as a recruiter, but aggressiveness and closing the deal on elite talent late in the recruiting season wasn't among them.

I'm not an Ohio State fan, but I disagree with this.

He did close on Terrelle Pryor, who was the top recruit in the nation at the time. He could have easily ended up at Michigan and Rich Rodriguez still would have had a job with his version of Pat White. (if if's and buts were candy and nuts, I know)

Tressel's strength was that he locked down the state. He had his pick of any of the top talent in the state of Ohio and those players more often than not committed to the Buckeyes. Regardless of whether the pieces fit or not, Tressel kept them in Columbus.

I echo WMR when i say Meyer is going to win and win big in Columbus, but he is going to do it with "his" guys. Some top recruits in-state may opt elsewhere because they don't fit Meyer's spread offense.

MWM
02-02-2012, 04:56 PM
It appears that some Big Ten coaches are not thrilled with Urban's recruiting tactics.

http://eye-on-collegefootball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/24156338/34669389

They don't really say what tactics he's using that are unethical, only that he's brought these tactics from other leagues and they don't like it. I'm really not a big fan of trying to poach recruits from other schools where they have verbally committed. I get the idea that they aren't really committed until they sign the LOI, but I think once a kid has said he's going somewhere else, other coaches should leave them alone unless the player initiates the contact.

These kids have enough pressure as it is and that's one of the primary reasons they do verbal commitments. The decision is hard enough already that having some coach come in after they've made a decision second guessing them is not fair to the kid. I hope this doesn't become a habit with Meyer. Now, I could get behind the notion that when these kids made their commitments, he wasn't the head coach and they may have chosen differently if he was around. I still don't love this, but I can at least understand it. But in the future, I hope he leaves kids alone who have made a decision. If the player makes the first contact, or lets it be known that he's willing to change, then he should go after them. I don't have a problem with that.

dabvu2498
02-02-2012, 05:21 PM
If Meyer is doing something "illegal," as Bielema alleges, then he should report it to the conference and the NCAA and not whine about it to the media.

I would be interested to see if Wisconsin or Mich St hosted any kids on official visits who had already given a verbal commitment somewhere else.

LoganBuck
02-02-2012, 10:04 PM
Now, I could get behind the notion that when these kids made their commitments, he wasn't the head coach and they may have chosen differently if he was around. I still don't love this, but I can at least understand it. But in the future, I hope he leaves kids alone who have made a decision. If the player makes the first contact, or lets it be known that he's willing to change, then he should go after them. I don't have a problem with that.

This is pretty much what happened. He called, asked if they were interested in coming to Ohio State, if they said yes he recruited them. If they said no, he did not. Why not give the kids the choice? Pittman and Dodson, were both pressured into verballing, to those other schools during the height of Tressel departure. Once the situation changed at Ohio State, they were inclined to stay home. Kyle Kalis, a Michigan commitment(formerly a Ohio State commit), declined and Urban Meyer did not contact him again. Did Brady Hoke leave Kalis alone? Did he spend all fall trying to swipe Brionte Dunn from Ohio State. Ohio State worked hard and kept him on board. Maybe these other schools should work a little harder.

Mark Dantonio did some pretty shady stuff himself when he left UC for MSU. No one cared a few years ago, when Ron Zook poached Justin Green from Ohio State on signing day. Lets not pretend that the other coaches in the BigTen have been pillars of gentlemanly virtue.

bucksfan2
02-03-2012, 08:13 AM
This is pretty much what happened. He called, asked if they were interested in coming to Ohio State, if they said yes he recruited them. If they said no, he did not. Why not give the kids the choice? Pittman and Dodson, were both pressured into verballing, to those other schools during the height of Tressel departure. Once the situation changed at Ohio State, they were inclined to stay home. Kyle Kalis, a Michigan commitment(formerly a Ohio State commit), declined and Urban Meyer did not contact him again. Did Brady Hoke leave Kalis alone? Did he spend all fall trying to swipe Brionte Dunn from Ohio State. Ohio State worked hard and kept him on board. Maybe these other schools should work a little harder.

Mark Dantonio did some pretty shady stuff himself when he left UC for MSU. No one cared a few years ago, when Ron Zook poached Justin Green from Ohio State on signing day. Lets not pretend that the other coaches in the BigTen have been pillars of gentlemanly virtue.

I couldn't remember Justin Green's name but was thinking about that story.

I saw a headline or something the other day talking about the B1G. They said something like, its becoming the Big 2 and little 10. OSU and UM killed it this year, can't say as much about anyone else. I wonder about MSU now that UM is recruiting the same type of player again.

traderumor
02-03-2012, 10:33 AM
Agreeing with what's been said on the recruiting wars. Sour grapes from these coaches. I'm sure none of them worked the "OSU is going to be in BIGGGGGG trouble, you don't want to go there" angle in their recruiting.

As for tactics, this year is a free pass save for activities that are recruiting violations. New head coach in November who is of Meyer's stature is gonna get some flips.

I do not think that pursuing a kid that verbally commits is wrong. I like the dating analogy Rob Oller used in the Dispatch. Verbal commits change frequently when there are program changes, so why shouldn't it work the other way? The kids are known to be fickle and take advantage of the recruiting process with visits and other recruiting benefits, so to say "only if a kid makes the contact" seems a bit limiting all things considered.

Todd Gack
02-03-2012, 11:06 AM
It's funny seeing OSU fans now praising Urban.

bucksfan2
02-03-2012, 11:12 AM
It's funny seeing OSU fans now praising Urban.

Last I checked he is Ohio State's head coach.

Todd Gack
02-03-2012, 11:15 AM
Last I checked he is Ohio State's head coach.

I know. It's just funny reading the personal comments of him being in 2008 compared to now. I get it, he's your coach. Nothing wrong with attacking the man who beat you handily and then praising him when he's your own. It's just amusing.

traderumor
02-03-2012, 12:14 PM
I know. It's just funny reading the personal comments of him being in 2008 compared to now. I get it, he's your coach. Nothing wrong with attacking the man who beat you handily and then praising him when he's your own. It's just amusing.Sometimes people end up getting married who either did or would have hated each other in a different stage in their life.

MWM
02-03-2012, 12:43 PM
What's really amusing is the need to come tell us how amusing we are instead of just being amused.

Roy Tucker
02-03-2012, 01:08 PM
I used to *hate* Deion Sanders. Thought he was a showboat, thought he was a hot dog, just didn't like him at all.

Then he became a Red. And then I loved him. He was still a hot dog, but he was *our* hot dog now.

So I'm glad all of us OSU fans can keep everyone else amused. It's called human nature.

WVRed
02-03-2012, 07:29 PM
I used to *hate* Deion Sanders. Thought he was a showboat, thought he was a hot dog, just didn't like him at all.

Then he became a Red. And then I loved him. He was still a hot dog, but he was *our* hot dog now.

So I'm glad all of us OSU fans can keep everyone else amused. It's called human nature.

Jim Edmonds would have been a good analogy.

As for Bielema, it kinda reminds me of Kevin Stallings and Rick Stansbury complaining in the SEC about Kentucky receiving favoritism. Just makes you want to beat them that much more just to rub salt in the wound. I'm sure tOSU fans feel the same way about Wisconsin.

MWM
02-03-2012, 07:46 PM
Bielema is not getting a lot of support from much of anyone on this. His own AD, Barry Alvarez, came out and said there was no such pact and that recruits were fair game until they signed and that all coaches should be doing it. Pat Fitzgerald said about the same and there was no basis for accusations of unethical recruiting practices, even implying things were misrepresented.

This is backfiring on Bielema and making him just look sour and envious. He should have kept his mouth shut instead of whining as he's wound up costing himself some credibility.

traderumor
02-03-2012, 11:10 PM
Bielema is not getting a lot of support from much of anyone on this. His own AD, Barry Alvarez, came out and said there was no such pact and that recruits were fair game until they signed and that all coaches should be doing it. Pat Fitzgerald said about the same and there was no basis for accusations of unethical recruiting practices, even implying things were misrepresented.

This is backfiring on Bielema and making him just look sour and envious. He should have kept his mouth shut instead of whining as he's wound up costing himself some credibility.
I never liked Bielema, thought he just wore arrogance like a bad powder blue leisure suit. Now, I have even more justification for that opinion :thumbup:

*BaseClogger*
02-04-2012, 01:48 AM
I wonder if it is a coincidence that Bielema has had to replace 9 assistant coaches over the last two years?

traderumor
02-04-2012, 08:06 AM
Possible, except two of them went to Pitt, one was his OC who is now the head coach and he took his OL coach with him. I don't know about the other 7.

jojo
02-04-2012, 09:18 AM
Flipping recruits isn't cheating.

If the ideal is that a student athlete will end up in the best fit possible for him, it follows that giving that athlete more choices likely increases the chances that the ideal is achieved.

If the culture in the Big 10 has been one of gentleman's agreements, well the big 10 should understand now that Meyer is no gentleman.

WVRed
02-04-2012, 10:18 AM
Flipping recruits isn't cheating.

If the ideal is that a student athlete will end up in the best fit possible for him, it follows that giving that athlete more choices likely increases the chances that the ideal is achieved.

If the culture in the Big 10 has been one of gentleman's agreements, well the big 10 should understand now that Meyer is no gentleman.

Exactly. Florida was known for oversigning and player arrests during his time in Gainesville. No reason for it to change in Columbus.

At the end of the day, if Urban Meyer is winning national titles, does it really matter if he has any friends within the B1G coaching community? I guess that is the question you have to ask yourself.

Mario-Rijo
02-04-2012, 10:30 AM
Exactly. Florida was known for oversigning and player arrests during his time in Gainesville. No reason for it to change in Columbus.

At the end of the day, if Urban Meyer is winning national titles, does it really matter if he has any friends within the B1G coaching community? I guess that is the question you have to ask yourself.

He won't get away with that in Columbus, the fans of other teams and the media just won't have it. The Buckeyes may be the NYY's of College Football, most everyone hates them but the Buckeyes themselves and their fans.

jojo
02-04-2012, 10:44 AM
Sanctions certainly haven't slowed down Meyer's recruiting. 3 more top 100ish recruits committed this week, David Perkins LB (a former Notre Dame commit), Joey O'Conner (a former Penn State commit, who left after the scandal broke), and Taylor Decker (an outright theft from Notre Dame). Since Meyer took over the class has gone from a mid twenties to a top 5 ranking.

If you really want to be impressed, look at wht USC has done recruiting-wise.

Mario-Rijo
02-04-2012, 11:47 AM
If you really want to be impressed, look at wht USC has done recruiting-wise.

They done really well. But IMO I really, really liked what I seen Stanford pull in, serious quality IMO.

RiverRat13
02-04-2012, 12:51 PM
If the culture in the Big 10 has been one of gentleman's agreements, well the big 10 should understand now that Meyer is no gentleman.

The only gentleman's agreement was between Tressel and Dantonio as the two coached with each other for years. Dantonio and Bielema have flipped other verbals in the past. Both are just whining now.

The good news for both is that I doubt Meyer will have to flip too many other schools' verbal commits from here on out. I'm guessing he will get who he wants pretty early.

traderumor
02-04-2012, 03:18 PM
Flipping recruits isn't cheating.

If the ideal is that a student athlete will end up in the best fit possible for him, it follows that giving that athlete more choices likely increases the chances that the ideal is achieved.

If the culture in the Big 10 has been one of gentleman's agreements, well the big 10 should understand now that Meyer is no gentleman.The thing about gentleman's agreements is that they only seem to apply for the offended party. When its in that party's favor, it doesn't apply.

jojo
02-04-2012, 05:47 PM
The thing about gentleman's agreements is that they only seem to apply for the offended party. When its in that party's favor, it doesn't apply.

Can you even imagine a coach actually verbalizing such an arrangement?

I guess it's kind of like the unwritten laws in baseball.

KronoRed
02-04-2012, 08:31 PM
Exactly. Florida was known for oversigning and player arrests during his time in Gainesville. No reason for it to change in Columbus.


I must have missed all the oversigning, you know with Florida being well under the 85 limit for the 3rd year a row coming up, where are all these guys? ;)

As for player arrests, you sign top kids that's going to happen, no matter where you are.

traderumor
02-04-2012, 09:27 PM
Can you even imagine a coach actually verbalizing such an arrangement?

I guess it's kind of like the unwritten laws in baseball.That's the thing, its "good ole boys" crap, and Meyer ain't in the club. He just farted in the country club bar after winning the club championship and the old timers ain't likin' it atall.

jojo
02-20-2012, 05:13 PM
Mike Bianchi sounds off on Meyer's legacy at Florida:


Muschamp dismissed his best player, Janoris Jenkins, from the team for a couple of pot arrests last year. Said Jenkins afterwards: "No doubt, if coach Meyer were still coaching, I'd still be playing for the Gators."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/os-bianchi-saturday-circus-0218-20120217,0,1553252.column

OSU essentially owns Ohio. It will be interesting to see if this effects the number of off the field issues associated with Meyer's recruiting classes now that he is at OSU.

RiverRat13
02-21-2012, 11:17 AM
Mike Bianchi sounds off on Meyer's legacy at Florida:



http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/os-bianchi-saturday-circus-0218-20120217,0,1553252.column

OSU essentially owns Ohio. It will be interesting to see if this effects the number of off the field issues associated with Meyer's recruiting classes now that he is at OSU.

So Urban Meyer was at Florida for six years. His players were arrested 31 times. Now that he's gone he also gets "credit" for the arrests of the players he recruited that are still at UF? So does he get to go back and count how many of those original 31 were Zook recruits and subtract that from his total? Or does Bianchi get to count all of those in Meyer's total?

traderumor
02-21-2012, 11:37 AM
So Urban Meyer was at Florida for six years. His players were arrested 31 times. Now that he's gone he also gets "credit" for the arrests of the players he recruited that are still at UF? So does he get to go back and count how many of those original 31 were Zook recruits and subtract that from his total? Or does Bianchi get to count all of those in Meyer's total?And when it all comes down to it, it isn't that college students who are also athletes get into trouble, it is how the discipline is handled by the program that matters. And a lot of that is not public information. Just ESPN level potshots if you ask me.

I mean, seriously, what meaningful measuring stick does "x number of arrests" provide? Did they result in convictions? Were they disciplined if team rules were violated (which is getting arrested a violation of team rules? of course not, anyone can get arrested)? If folks are going to bring that stuff up, just throwing out "number of arrests" is not fair for any program as any sort of measuring stick for the integrity of the program.

No one wants their team's athletic program to lack integrity, but the current "evaluation" methods that are used to determine that are certainly not very helpful and abuse certain information to prove the case that critics are trying to make.

MWM
02-21-2012, 12:33 PM
It was an editorial which means the guy can say about whatever he wants. But even by editorial standards that was a hack job. He got one quote from a player who was suspended from the team who thinks he'd still be on the team if Meyer were around, but that's just his speculation. Is it surprising that a player who is suspended by a new coach would say the old one wouldn't have done it?

He may be right, but that doesn't make it any more speculation than it is. It's not like he never threw anyone off the team. Cam Newton is one example.

He clearly had an agenda, but editorials are allowed that. But he really doesn't help his own credibility there. He claims all the arrests under Meyer were a result of the culture he created of not holding them accountable, even suggesting that so many players transferred because they didn't want to be a part of Muschamp's new order that actually held players accountable. Yet he then points out that 9 players were arrested since Muschamp took over, which seems to contradict his previous point. Seems to me that if the difference was Meyer himself and the culture of no accountability that Muschamp has instilled, there would have been a reduction in arrests once he was gone. Can't have it both ways. 9 players have been arrested since he took over. 1 has been thrown off the team. This guy is really grabbing at straws here.

jojo
02-21-2012, 12:36 PM
So Urban Meyer was at Florida for six years. His players were arrested 31 times. Now that he's gone he also gets "credit" for the arrests of the players he recruited that are still at UF? So does he get to go back and count how many of those original 31 were Zook recruits and subtract that from his total? Or does Bianchi get to count all of those in Meyer's total?

You'll have to ask Bianchi.

I get that some of this is sour grapes by Florida fans. I also get that pointing out anything that contradicts the narrative that Meyer chose OSU because its a place where he can be a moral coach of character rankles the feathers of some OSU fans.

Bianchi's point though is a reasonable one. Attrition can decimate a recruiting class be it injury, academics, or off the field things. Meyer's program at Florida had an endemic issue with off the field issues that goes beyond simple arrest tallies. You can either put up with them or kick the kid to the curb. I think that's what Bianchi was pointing out-perhaps there wasn't enough kicking to the curb under Meyer and Muschamp is dealing with some housecleaning.

My question did not have a value judgement attached. Will Meyer's new recruiting grounds alter the type of culture that developed under him at Florida or will a renewed battle in national grounds promote a similar culture at OSU? If so, will it be tolerated? Not tolerating it can mean saying goodbye to major talent.

MWM
02-21-2012, 01:33 PM
I don't think there's no valid point to be made around Meyer and what he left behind at Florida. There's no escaping the fact that he left the cupboards pretty bare and that's on him and is something he should not be very proud of. His heart wasn't in it the last year or two it seems. And I don't doubt that there's a lot of truth to the criticism that he fostered a culture lacking in discipline when it came to off the field behavior and that he recruited kids probably prone to these issues.

Whether there's some truth to what's underlying Bianchi's tangent is not what I took issue with. That piece was all over the place with contradictions and the support he used was pretty poor. If you're going to make those kinds of accusations, he should at least do a better job supporting it. That's all I was saying.

The real narrative of Meyer's decision is something only he knows, but I don't think it's completely unreasonable to think there's an element of truth to some of the noise about him wanting a different environment, even though that idea rankles the feathers of the SEC football is the greatest invention since the wheel crowd. He clearly was not happy in the environment he had in Gainesville, I don't think that much is really in doubt.

I really don't know what his true motivations are, but I think there are some reasonable theories one could explore. His past head coaching experience was at Bowling Green and Utah. He's not having to deal with elite players and a lot of problem kids. He's obviously a great x and o coach, but there wasn't a lot in his experience that prepared him to be at the head of a program with the type of problems that come with a program like Florida (and I don't mean SEC, I mean a big time program with elite players and an atmosphere where football means everything. It could very easily have been OSU or any other big time program).

Those programs have a different kind of athlete and a different set of expectations and problems that come along with it. I do think that's probably elevated at an SEC school with the type of atmosphere that exists down here, and I don't think anyone could argue with that considering it's one of the things the SEC fanbase is so proud of and reminds us of constantly.

Meyer is a football coach and was never prepared to deal with what he had to deal with at a program like Florida. It's possible he just had no idea how to handle it and did a very poor job of adapting. It wore on him over the years and even led to some health issues. It wasn't getting any better and he felt ill-equipped to deal with all the other things that comes with being at the head of this type of program. Just because he's a skilled football coach doesn't mean he's skilled at managing that type of environment, from trying to recruit in the SEC to dealing with problem kids.

Maybe he was just burned out and thought it was something he was just not going to be able to get better at dealing with, at least not in Gainesville. I'm not suggesting he was right or wrong about this, but I don't think it's that far-fetched a theory as to what he may have been thinking and what led him to leave Florida. What he thought is different that whether or not we think he's right in his thinking.

And maybe he thought it would be different enough outside the SEC that he could focus more on coaching and less on that. Or it's possible that after a year away to reflect he now sees his role in what happened and feels better equipped to manage the types of problems that arise at an elite football program. I really don't know, but there are plenty of reasonable conjectures that don't completely dismiss the idea that at least he thinks things will be different at OSU instead of Florida.

Personally, I think if he does believe this he'll be in for a disappointment. The problems he experienced at Florida will be there at any big time program....maybe not to the same degree, but they will be there. If he didn't learn from his experience in Gainesville and do things differently at OSU, I think there's a better than good chance he'll wind up burning out there as well. But there's no teacher like experience. He had none that prepared him for what he had to deal with in Gainesville. He now has that experience and and a clean slate. We'll see if he learned anything or not.

BuckeyeRed27
02-21-2012, 01:36 PM
You'll have to ask Bianchi.

I get that some of this is sour grapes by Florida fans. I also get that pointing out anything that contradicts the narrative that Meyer chose OSU because its a place where he can be a moral coach of character rankles the feathers of some OSU fans.

Bianchi's point though is a reasonable one. Attrition can decimate a recruiting class be it injury, academics, or off the field things. Meyer's program at Florida had an endemic issue with off the field issues that goes beyond simple arrest tallies. You can either put up with them or kick the kid to the curb. I think that's what Bianchi was pointing out-perhaps there wasn't enough kicking to the curb under Meyer and Muschamp is dealing with some housecleaning.

My question did not have a value judgement attached. Will Meyer's new recruiting grounds alter the type of culture that developed under him at Florida or will a renewed battle in national grounds promote a similar culture at OSU? If so, will it be tolerated? Not tolerating it can mean saying goodbye to major talent.

OSU has had plenty of bad apples before Urban Meyer arrived and they will continue to have them. It's the nature of college football. I'm not sure why this has been coming up so much. Maybe it was some of the holier than thou OSU fans that brought it up after he smoked us in the NCG?
As for the Meyer to Muschamp change over, I don't believe it is any different than any school with a coaching change. New coach means new rules and usually some attrition in the players. Once again it's the nature of college football.

RiverRat13
02-21-2012, 01:39 PM
Bianchi's point though is a reasonable one. Attrition can decimate a recruiting class be it injury, academics, or off the field things. Meyer's program at Florida had an endemic issue with off the field issues that goes beyond simple arrest tallies. You can either put up with them or kick the kid to the curb. I think that's what Bianchi was pointing out-perhaps there wasn't enough kicking to the curb under Meyer and Muschamp is dealing with some housecleaning.


That may be fair. I mean it seems that stealing laptops would be enough to kick someone out of school, yet it took that and multiple instances of academic fraud for Meyer to finally be done with one particular player I can remember.

And as MWM pointed out, 9 arrests and only 1 one person removed from the program doesn't sound much like Muschamp housecleaning to me.

Mike Bianchi seems to be doing a lot sounding off about Urban Meyer. Read this particular article. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-02-03/sports/os-bianchi-saturday-circus-0204-20120203_1_urban-meyer-college-coaching-profession-dwight-howard

Is that who you really want to link on an OSU thread? Would you consider any part of that to be professional?

As for your question, OSU is going to have arrests under Urban Meyer. I would hope 31 in six years would not be tolerated, but OSU will most likely have their share.

jojo
02-21-2012, 02:17 PM
That may be fair. I mean it seems that stealing laptops would be enough to kick someone out of school, yet it took that and multiple instances of academic fraud for Meyer to finally be done with one particular player I can remember.

Meyer never revoked the scholarship of the particular player you remember.

gonelong
02-21-2012, 02:23 PM
Underage drinking, MJ possession, moving violations, shoplifting a snickers bar ... not all that concerned.

B&E, Theft, assault/fights, domestic disputes, disorderly conduct, DUI ... concerned.

GL

/depends which is which

Roy Tucker
02-21-2012, 04:13 PM
What I'm hoping for Urban Meyer is that he'll be like Dick Vermeil v1.0 and v2.0.

v1.0 on the Eagles, he got all caught up in the hype and micromanagement of every minutiae of a big time program and just burned himself out and had to get out to save his life.

v2.0 on the Rams, he learned how to deal with the stress and delegate authority and take more of a manager level position rather than a micromanager.

v1.0 is a fast track to killing yourself while v2.0 is a viable career path. I'm hoping we'll see a v2.0 Meyer. Fingers crossed.

jojo
04-09-2012, 07:09 PM
This Sporting News article paints a really ugly picture of the behind the scenes happenings at Florida under Meyer. In short, if quotes in the article are true, Meyer is exactly everything that big ten fans hate and criticize the sec for and the days of a red sweater leading the charge up a high road while OSU wins are over.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2012-04-09/urban-meyer-florida-ohio-state-ncaa-violation-recruiting-drugs-program-will-musc

BuckeyeRed27
04-10-2012, 02:40 AM
That article was dumb. I'm not even sure it was written by a professional journalist. It read like a Bleacher Report article.

LoganBuck
04-10-2012, 08:18 AM
I don't like the shoot the messenger stuff, but Matt Hayes has been an axe to grind with Urban Meyer. He is a Florida Gator fan that lives in Orlando. His disdain for Ohio State is also known. The take home message from the article is that Urban won big at Florida. Urban had some star players that got preferential treatment. Some players were suspended and the info on the suspensions was kept in house. Urban's second to last recruiting class was filled with big talent psychos who don't play well under the rules. Urban Meyer recruited players committed to other schools to Ohio State who likely would have committed to Ohio State to begin with had a coaching change not occurred. Will Muschamp has a scapegoat. Shall we do this level of investigative journalism at any other program? Off the top of my head I could write a similar article changing names at Ohio State, Alabama, Notre Dame, Florida State, Auburn, LSU, Texas, USC, Oregon, Cincinnati, Penn State, Michigan, Michigan State, and I am sure a google search would get me that anywhere else. Yawn

I used to follow Matt Hayes on Twitter, but his Urban Meyer/Ohio State stuff was so juvenile I had to quit. I follow most of the national college football guys, and some of them were really hard on Ohio State, I still follow them, they were just doing their job.

jojo
04-10-2012, 08:59 AM
I don't like the shoot the messenger stuff, but Matt Hayes has been an axe to grind with Urban Meyer. He is a Florida Gator fan that lives in Orlando. His disdain for Ohio State is also known. The take home message from the article is that Urban won big at Florida. Urban had some star players that got preferential treatment. Some players were suspended and the info on the suspensions was kept in house. Urban's second to last recruiting class was filled with big talent psychos who don't play well under the rules. Urban Meyer recruited players committed to other schools to Ohio State who likely would have committed to Ohio State to begin with had a coaching change not occurred. Will Muschamp has a scapegoat. Shall we do this level of investigative journalism at any other program? Off the top of my head I could write a similar article changing names at Ohio State, Alabama, Notre Dame, Florida State, Auburn, LSU, Texas, USC, Oregon, Cincinnati, Penn State, Michigan, Michigan State, and I am sure a google search would get me that anywhere else. Yawn

I used to follow Matt Hayes on Twitter, but his Urban Meyer/Ohio State stuff was so juvenile I had to quit. I follow most of the national college football guys, and some of them were really hard on Ohio State, I still follow them, they were just doing their job.

I think it's fair to point out a couple of things-Matt Hayes has been consistently vocal about his criticism of Meyer and the Sporting News piece had a paucity of named sources.

Regardless of whether the airing of Meyer's Gator laundry is motivated by sour grapes or not, the notion that Meyer is above the fray and has some type of a moral authority and it's this nobility that drew him to OSU really can't be supported by any type of close inspection of his program at Florida.

To me, that's kind of the take home. Meyer is going to win at OSU-he's too good of a coach not to have success given the advatages of the Buckeye program. But it will be winning at all costs and that will be at odds with the Buckeye Brand at times and this is a time when there is little margin for error for the Buckeye compliance staff and when a great program may not even sniff a championship game.

Todd Gack
04-10-2012, 12:39 PM
I don't like the shoot the messenger stuff, but Matt Hayes has been an axe to grind with Urban Meyer. He is a Florida Gator fan that lives in Orlando. His disdain for Ohio State is also known. The take home message from the article is that Urban won big at Florida. Urban had some star players that got preferential treatment. Some players were suspended and the info on the suspensions was kept in house. Urban's second to last recruiting class was filled with big talent psychos who don't play well under the rules. Urban Meyer recruited players committed to other schools to Ohio State who likely would have committed to Ohio State to begin with had a coaching change not occurred. Will Muschamp has a scapegoat. Shall we do this level of investigative journalism at any other program? Off the top of my head I could write a similar article changing names at Ohio State, Alabama, Notre Dame, Florida State, Auburn, LSU, Texas, USC, Oregon, Cincinnati, Penn State, Michigan, Michigan State, and I am sure a google search would get me that anywhere else. Yawn

I used to follow Matt Hayes on Twitter, but his Urban Meyer/Ohio State stuff was so juvenile I had to quit. I follow most of the national college football guys, and some of them were really hard on Ohio State, I still follow them, they were just doing their job.


I get the sneaking suspicion that if Urban wasn't in Columbus, BuckeyePlanet wouldn't be defending the guy to death.

LoganBuck
04-10-2012, 12:43 PM
I get the sneaking suspicion that if Urban wasn't in Columbus, BuckeyePlanet wouldn't be defending the guy to death.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070526081822/uncyclopedia/images/thumb/1/15/CaptainobviousChooseOption.jpg/200px-CaptainobviousChooseOption.jpg

Scrap Irony
04-10-2012, 01:39 PM
Urban Meyer: NCAA FB rules and regulations
::
John Calipari: NCAA BB rules and regulations?

bucksfan2
04-10-2012, 01:43 PM
I get the sneaking suspicion that if Urban wasn't in Columbus, BuckeyePlanet wouldn't be defending the guy to death.

Really?!?!

From everything I have heard Urban is running a pretty tight program right now. The only real thing he has caught heat over was his recruiting tactics from the likes of Bilema and Dantonio. I was surprised at some of the things Tressel would let go that Meyer put an end to.

As for the Sporting News article I read it and thought it was a hack job. The problem I had was there were some accusations but no one would back them up with concrete evidence. I liked the "circle of trust" accusation that was debunked with a Meet the Fockers reference.

As for the issues with some of his Florida players they were well known. Jenkins, Hernandez, and Harvin all had baggage that everyone knew about. I would also challenge anyone to find a top tier college football program that didn't have players with baggage. I am not saying that Hernandez somking pot is right, but I challenge that author to attend any university in the country (not located in Utah) and see if he can find a squeaky clean one. Because it appears that is what his standards are.

RiverRat13
04-10-2012, 02:20 PM
I think there's some evidence that Urban Meyer is a jerk. Oh, well.

The only part of the article that stood out to me was including Bielema's crying. Bielema was publicly accosted by his own AD/mentor Barry Alvarez for what he said about Meyer. Hayes should have included that in his article.

Scrap Irony
04-10-2012, 03:02 PM
From everything I have heard Urban is running a pretty tight program right now.

He's been at OSU for, like, a month.

(Okay, since late November.)

Todd Gack
04-10-2012, 09:21 PM
Really?!?!

From everything I have heard Urban is running a pretty tight program right now. The only real thing he has caught heat over was his recruiting tactics from the likes of Bilema and Dantonio. I was surprised at some of the things Tressel would let go that Meyer put an end to.

As for the Sporting News article I read it and thought it was a hack job. The problem I had was there were some accusations but no one would back them up with concrete evidence. I liked the "circle of trust" accusation that was debunked with a Meet the Fockers reference.

As for the issues with some of his Florida players they were well known. Jenkins, Hernandez, and Harvin all had baggage that everyone knew about. I would also challenge anyone to find a top tier college football program that didn't have players with baggage. I am not saying that Hernandez somking pot is right, but I challenge that author to attend any university in the country (not located in Utah) and see if he can find a squeaky clean one. Because it appears that is what his standards are.

I'm just saying that I think the article is a little overstated. I think the worst part is letting Harvin pretty much doing whatever he wanted and getting in to a tussle with the WR's coach. If he did in fact protect the 'circle of trust' players more than the others in the media, then that's pretty sad.

But that's not really my point. I just think it's funny that if this article had come out while he was still at UF, I highly doubt you'd be defending the integrity of this man.

LoganBuck
04-10-2012, 11:37 PM
I'm just saying that I think the article is a little overstated. I think the worst part is letting Harvin pretty much doing whatever he wanted and getting in to a tussle with the WR's coach. If he did in fact protect the 'circle of trust' players more than the others in the media, then that's pretty sad.

But that's not really my point. I just think it's funny that if this article had come out while he was still at UF, I highly doubt you'd be defending the integrity of this man.

The coach denied the story today.

Most Buckeye fans wouldn't care. Why is that interesting?

jojo
04-17-2012, 11:26 PM
http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2012-04-16/chris-rainey-percy-harvin-brandon-spikes-carlos-dunlap-urban-meyers-track-record

Brutus
04-17-2012, 11:52 PM
One thing is for sure, when the worst people can find on a coach is that he may have shown preferential treatment as to how a coach handles players... you know there's not much bad to speak of the guy.

No one will bring up cheating, because he's got a spotless record with the NCAA.

No one will bring up grades, because he had more Academic All-SEC selections than anyone in the conference sans (gasp, Vanderbilt).

No one will bring up his own character, because he's never committed a single unlawful act (outside of a parking or speeding ticket).

The best a Sporting News "investigation" can come up with is that he may have been more lenient on stars? Say it isn't so!

BuckeyeRed27
04-24-2012, 02:06 PM
Just had three night games announced for this season. Home against Nebraska and @Indiana and @Penn St. All games in October.

I watched a bit of the Spring Game on TV. I don't think you can take a lot from them, but it was nice to see both Miller and Guiton look good throwing the ball. Obviously freshman Michael Thomas stood out with 12 cathes, so we'll see if he can avoid the Buckeye Spring Game curse. He just looks like a wide reciever though and think he'll have a nice career.

jojo
06-04-2012, 05:32 PM
Two expected starters for Urban Meyer's first Ohio State team have been suspended from the team.

Ohio State issued a statement Monday saying that Meyer had suspended senior tight end Jake Stoneburner and junior offensive tackle Jack Mewhort after they were arrested by police on a misdemeanor charge of obstructing official business. The school said it had no further comment.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8007778/ohio-state-buckeyes-suspend-jake-stoneburner-jack-mewhort-weekend-arrests

BuckeyeRed27
06-04-2012, 06:14 PM
http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2012/5/13/3018008/trovon-reed-arrested-auburn-tigers

jojo
06-04-2012, 06:32 PM
http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2012/5/13/3018008/trovon-reed-arrested-auburn-tigers

Reed paid the parking ticket that he received in high school and it's a non-issue.

But it's inexplicable why a reference to Trovon Reed would appear in an OSU thread.

Assembly Hall
06-04-2012, 08:04 PM
Reed paid the parking ticket that he received in high school and it's a non-issue.

But it's inexplicable why a reference to Trovon Reed would appear in an OSU thread.

He had to have copied the wrong link. Or they change it daily? Beats me, dont know what it has to do with the conversation period.:beerme:

BuckeyeRed27
06-04-2012, 08:11 PM
Reed paid the parking ticket that he received in high school and it's a non-issue.

But it's inexplicable why a reference to Trovon Reed would appear in an OSU thread.

My bad. I thought this was the pointless college football player arrest thread.

I'm sure in the next couple weeks you can also file this one under "non-issue".

jojo
06-04-2012, 08:17 PM
My bad. I thought this was the pointless college football player arrest thread.

I'm sure in the next couple weeks you can also file this one under "non-issue".

Fortunately you still have time to edit the original post and remove the pointless off topic link. :p

BuckeyeRed27
06-04-2012, 08:43 PM
Fortunately you still have time to edit the original post and remove the pointless off topic link. :p

I think I'll leave it for context.

jojo
06-04-2012, 08:44 PM
I think I'll leave it for context.

But it doesn't provide any.

RiverRat13
06-05-2012, 07:10 PM
http://www.elevenwarriors.com/2012/06/11655/b1ggie-pac

improbus
07-07-2012, 03:55 PM
I know OSU fans won't want to hear this, but arrests are often a sign of an improving football team. Florida, Oregon, Alabama, Miami, Florida State, LSU, and USC all had significant legal troubles during their championship runs. You need a little of that dangerous edge in your huddle.

15fan
07-07-2012, 06:53 PM
I know OSU fans won't want to hear this, but arrests are often a sign of an improving football team. Florida, Oregon, Alabama, Miami, Florida State, LSU, and USC all had significant legal troubles during their championship runs. You need a little of that dangerous edge in your huddle.

Mark Richt wishes that were so, because he'd have a boatload of BCS trophies.

improbus
07-07-2012, 10:41 PM
Mark Richt wishes that were so, because he'd have a boatload of BCS trophies.

Arrests don't lead to championships, but championships rarely come without them. I found this very interesting.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/the_bonus/02/27/cfb.crime/index.html

improbus
07-07-2012, 10:57 PM
Another fun website. I clicked on the OSU link for 2012, noticing that there have been 4 arrests. I was delighted by the fourth. Just outstanding. I need video. Like right now.

http://arrestnation.com/

LoganBuck
07-09-2012, 01:19 PM
Another fun website. I clicked on the OSU link for 2012, noticing that there have been 4 arrests. I was delighted by the fourth. Just outstanding. I need video. Like right now.

http://arrestnation.com/

I don't know what is so funny about domestic violence? Storm Klein got kicked off the team just like he should have been. So was Dominic Clarke.

Mewhart and Stoneburner are suspended for the time being, and off scholarship. Their misdeeds are forgivable as college tomfoolery. But they have to earn it.

Accepting arrests is not something that should be tolerated.

improbus
07-09-2012, 01:42 PM
I don't know what is so funny about domestic violence? Storm Klein got kicked off the team just like he should have been. So was Dominic Clarke.

Mewhart and Stoneburner are suspended for the time being, and off scholarship. Their misdeeds are forgivable as college tomfoolery. But they have to earn it.

Accepting arrests is not something that should be tolerated.

Sorry, I meant the last name, Paul Hamm. I got the number wrong.

sonny
07-30-2012, 10:16 AM
Ohio State runningnack Bri'onte Dunn arrested and charged with drug possession.

In related news, Bri'onte Dunn will never play for the Buckeyes again.

Scrap Irony
07-30-2012, 10:34 AM
Was he kicked off the team?

That's not something Meyer usually does. Especially with talented guys.

Danny Serafini
07-30-2012, 10:38 AM
Technically he was cited, not arrested, but it still isn't good.

sonny
07-30-2012, 12:00 PM
Technically he was cited, not arrested, but it still isn't good.

You are correct, my mistake. However, with all the messages being sent by Meyer, I wouldn't be surprised to see Bri'onte in Youngstown State.

BuckeyeRed27
07-30-2012, 02:59 PM
According to Twitter (which means it's true) he was with his cousin and the drugs may not have been his. Still a lack of judgement and I'm sure punishment is coming, but I doubt he'll be kicked off the team.

Scrap Irony
07-30-2012, 03:10 PM
Yeah, Meyer only kicks five star guys off his team after their fourth or fifth arrest.

Those of you that still insist there's a code of conduct that's different at tOSU than at other institutions are in for a rude awakening, IMO. All the "SEC cheats/ crooks/ thieves" narratives are going to have to be re-written or edited, post-haste, because this is the way Urban Meyer plays the game.

BuckeyeRed27
07-30-2012, 04:51 PM
Yeah, Meyer only kicks five star guys off his team after their fourth or fifth arrest.

Those of you that still insist there's a code of conduct that's different at tOSU than at other institutions are in for a rude awakening, IMO. All the "SEC cheats/ crooks/ thieves" narratives are going to have to be re-written or edited, post-haste, because this is the way Urban Meyer plays the game.

So you are in favor of college players being kicked off of the team because they were found with a small amount of pot that may or may not have belonged to them?

I'm just trying to figure out when I should bust out my "holier than thou" posts.

bucksfan2
07-30-2012, 04:55 PM
So you are in favor of college players being kicked off of the team because they were found with a small amount of pot that may or may not have belonged to them?

I'm just trying to figure out when I should bust out my "holier than thou" posts.

Guilty until proven innocent in America, huh?

Scrap Irony
07-30-2012, 05:49 PM
So you are in favor of college players being kicked off of the team because they were found with a small amount of pot that may or may not have belonged to them?

I'm just trying to figure out when I should bust out my "holier than thou" posts.

You're right, it's unfair to characterize this kid as a trouble-maker because he was arrested with pot and paraphenalia.

Mea culpa.

Brutus
07-30-2012, 06:05 PM
Marijuana use among young adults aged 18 to 25 was found most responsible for the rise. Drug use among college-aged students has jumped from 19.6 percent in 2008 to 21.5 percent in 2010.

http://www.usatodayeducate.com/staging/index.php/ccp/statistics-rise-high-for-marijuana-use

BuckeyeRed27
07-31-2012, 11:05 AM
You're right, it's unfair to characterize this kid as a trouble-maker because he was arrested with pot and paraphenalia.

Mea culpa.

He was not arrested.

cincrazy
07-31-2012, 11:23 AM
You're right, it's unfair to characterize this kid as a trouble-maker because he was arrested with pot and paraphenalia.

Mea culpa.

Not all OSU fans are happy with this. I think he should be kicked off the team. Now is no time to be screwing around, coming off the troubles we came off of. No time for fools.

cincrazy
07-31-2012, 11:23 AM
He was not arrested.

No, he wasn't. But he was hanging out with his pot smoking cousin. He's hanging out with him for a reason, if you ask me.

bucksfan2
07-31-2012, 11:30 AM
No, he wasn't. But he was hanging out with his pot smoking cousin. He's hanging out with him for a reason, if you ask me.

Two of my roommates in college were pot smokers. One it turns out was a weed while the other one is very successful today.

I think he should be suspended and have to earn his way back on the team. However I am not going to pass judgement on a 18 year old caught with a little wacky tobacco.

BuckeyeRed27
07-31-2012, 12:37 PM
http://www.cantonrep.com/osu/x1437139996/Brionte-Dunn-will-not-face-drug-charges

Charges were dropped.

WMR
07-31-2012, 01:05 PM
Two of my roommates in college were pot smokers. One it turns out was a weed while the other one is very successful today.

I think he should be suspended and have to earn his way back on the team. However I am not going to pass judgement on a 18 year old caught with a little wacky tobacco.

One of your roommates was a weed? I hate to ask what drugs you were doing! :laugh:

cincrazy
08-01-2012, 06:25 PM
Two of my roommates in college were pot smokers. One it turns out was a weed while the other one is very successful today.

I think he should be suspended and have to earn his way back on the team. However I am not going to pass judgement on a 18 year old caught with a little wacky tobacco.

I wasn't trying to demonize the kid. My best friend in college smoked week. He's now through law school and working for a prominent bank in Columbus.

With that being said, I owe Dunn an apology. He passed a drug test, and clearly isn't smoking it, even if it was in the car he was driving.

bucksfan2
08-02-2012, 09:12 AM
I wasn't trying to demonize the kid. My best friend in college smoked week. He's now through law school and working for a prominent bank in Columbus.

With that being said, I owe Dunn an apology. He passed a drug test, and clearly isn't smoking it, even if it was in the car he was driving.

One of my buddies was a pretty big pot smoker in college and passed a drug test to get a job at Honda :eek: My roommate that I was refering to earlier probably kept enough weed at our apartment to get arrested with intent to distribute. Did that mean that the other 4 roommates were no goods and should have been kicked out of college?

Dunn needs to earn his way back into the good graces of OSU. Passing a drug test is step one.