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View Full Version : Reds exercise Phillips' option; Decline Cordero's



mattfeet
10-31-2011, 05:43 PM
"Reds exercise Phillips' 2012 option, decline Cordero's option, outright Burton and Thompson. Maloney was claimed off waivers by the Twins."

From Reds twitter

-Matt

mattfeet
10-31-2011, 06:06 PM
Jocketty says they're still talking long-term deals with both players and that the "door is open" for Cordero to return under a re-structured contract.

-Matt

757690
10-31-2011, 06:31 PM
Considering how many closers there are available, I hope the Reds have no problem letting Cordero walk away if he doesn't agree to their terms.

Heath Bell and Jonathon Papelbon will probably get around $7-8M a year for two years, and they are significantly better than Cordero. If I'm the Reds, I offer $5M total for two years as a take it or leave it offer. I am positive the Reds can get someone just as good, if not better, for that price.

Vottomatic
10-31-2011, 06:45 PM
Well I agree in principle that I hope the Reds don't just take the easy path and re-sign Cordero without looking at comparable options.

Kc61
10-31-2011, 06:58 PM
Well I agree in principle that I hope the Reds don't just take the easy path and re-sign Cordero without looking at comparable options.

And I hope the Reds don't take the path of waving goodbye to Cordero, failing to sign another established closer, and winding up using a setup man as a closer. Some non-closer picked up in late January off the scrap heap.

Would a Heath Bell or a Papelbon come to the Reds? Would they pitch at GABP? Maybe they'd command much more $ than Coco at this stage.

I'm all for looking at the alternatives, but I remember the pre-Coco days when the 8th and 9th innings were nightmares.

I can live with a little heartburn in the ninth inning. Not sure how I would handle repeated meltdowns.

JaxRed
10-31-2011, 07:36 PM
And I hope the complete opposite. Let Cordero walk, find a cheap closer in Boxberger, or Ondrusek or someone, and reallocate the resources.

mattfeet
10-31-2011, 07:52 PM
I can live with a little heartburn in the ninth inning. Not sure how I would handle repeated meltdowns.

Agreed 110%

PickOff
10-31-2011, 08:11 PM
And I hope the complete opposite. Let Cordero walk, find a cheap closer in Boxberger, or Ondrusek or someone, and reallocate the resources.

Agreed. Fill the other holes first.

thatcoolguy_22
10-31-2011, 08:41 PM
And I hope the complete opposite. Let Cordero walk, find a cheap closer in Boxberger, or Ondrusek or someone, and reallocate the resources.

What Jax said.

Vottomatic
11-01-2011, 09:59 AM
And I hope the complete opposite. Let Cordero walk, find a cheap closer in Boxberger, or Ondrusek or someone, and reallocate the resources.

x 2, 3, and 4!

_Sir_Charles_
11-01-2011, 12:50 PM
I'm wondering how many of the people preferring to let a kid like Boxberger close were around when we had Guardado & Weathers as our closers. Have fans so quickly forgotten what our bullpen was like BEFORE Cordero? For a team that's thinking of contending...going into the season with a completely unproven pitcher in the closers role is kinda foolhardy IMO.

TRF
11-01-2011, 01:01 PM
Sam LeCure as Closer works for me. Best K rate of all relievers in 2011 not named Chapman.

and a killer stache.

reds1869
11-01-2011, 01:06 PM
Sam LeCure as Closer works for me. Best K rate of all relievers in 2011 not named Chapman.

and a killer stache.

I like it.

757690
11-01-2011, 01:26 PM
For the record, the 9th inning never was a big problem for the Reds last decade. For a brief time it was the 6-8th inning that was giving them fits.

Weathers actually was a decent closer, the problem was getting to him. Cordero was brought in so that Weathers could be that bridge to the 9th. It would have been much more prudent (and cheaper) to keep Weathers as the closer, and just get a good setup guy.

jojo
11-01-2011, 02:09 PM
Where does this officially put the Reds concerning payroll ($50M?)?

mdccclxix
11-01-2011, 02:27 PM
cots says 53 million with Rolen's and Arroyo's deferals added in. take those out it's 46 million. Add BP's extention it's 57 million. Add MLBTR's estimated Arb of 9 million and it's 66 million. Add pre arb contracts and it may approach 70 million, I don't know. That leaves about 15 million left if it goes to 85 this year. Cordero's 1 mil buy out is included. Ramon may factor in eventually. In actuality they could drop Cordero, Relieve with LeCure or Masset, and stick without Ramon and not sign a FA and have a 70 mil payroll, which if they want to keep Votto, they could sock some money away this year for that purpose.

jojo
11-01-2011, 02:31 PM
cots says 53 million with Rolen's and Arroyo's deferals added in. take those out it's 46 million. Add BP's extention it's 57 million. Add MLBTR's estimated Arb of 9 million and it's 66 million. Add pre arb contracts and it may approach 70 million, I don't know. That leaves about 15 million left if it goes to 85 this year. Cordero's 1 mil buy out is included. Ramon may factor in eventually. In actuality they could drop Cordero, Relieve with LeCure or Masset, and stick without Ramon and not sign a FA and have a 70 mil payroll, which if they want to keep Votto, they could sock some money away this year for that purpose.

$15M does not buy alot on the open market.

But there is an avenue where Walt could add payroll via creative trades possibly.

mdccclxix
11-01-2011, 03:50 PM
Yep, if Chapman were in a deal, he makes close to 5 mil next year. Bailey is an Arb 1. Masset is an Arb 2 or 3. Any of the Arb guys could add pay flex if they were dealt.

757690
11-18-2011, 09:08 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/reds-need-to-increase-offer-to-keep-cordero.html

Cordero says that he won't sign with the Reds unless they up their offer. However, he said they are still in the hunt.

Big question, do the Reds offer Cordero arbitration?

mth123
11-18-2011, 09:28 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/reds-need-to-increase-offer-to-keep-cordero.html

Cordero says that he won't sign with the Reds unless they up their offer. However, he said they are still in the hunt.

Big question, do the Reds offer Cordero arbitration?

Please lord no. Anything more than $2 Million for a reliever is too much. The main thing this bullpen needs is a reliable starter to get past the 5th inning most of the time.

If Chapman were to stay in the pen, I think the Reds pen as is, is as good and deep as most. Chapman, Arredondo, Masset, Bray, Ondrusek, Lecure and Wood. I'd take that over nearly every pen in baseball.

757690
11-18-2011, 09:38 PM
Please lord no. Anything more than $2 Million for a reliever is too much. The main thing this bullpen needs is a reliable starter to get past the 5th inning most of the time.

If Chapman were to stay in the pen, I think the Reds pen as is, is as good and deep as most. Chapman, Arredondo, Masset, Bray, Ondrusek, Lecure and Wood. I'd take that over nearly every pen in baseball.

Obviously, if there is a chance that Cordero would accept it, no way should the Reds offer arbitration. But if he is getting the interest he says he's getting, he would be foolish to accept. At his age, if he can get a multiple year deal, he need to take it.

I guess the question should have been, do you think Cordero would get a multiple year deal this off season?

dougdirt
11-18-2011, 09:40 PM
I guess the question should have been, do you think Cordero would get a multiple year deal this off season?

I think he will. Someone will absolutely buy into a 2.45 ERA and 37 saves even with the declining stuff and strikeout numbers.

Gallen5862
11-18-2011, 09:48 PM
The Reds should offer COCO and Hernandez arbitration since they are both Type A Free agents. If they accept arbitration you keep roster depth. If they decline arbitration you get draft picks.

dougdirt
11-18-2011, 10:23 PM
The Reds should offer COCO and Hernandez arbitration since they are both Type A Free agents. If they accept arbitration you keep roster depth. If they decline arbitration you get draft picks.

If they accept you lose any and all payroll flexibility you had, which wasn't much to begin with, and you don't really get much upgrade vs what you already had without them.

757690
11-18-2011, 11:01 PM
I think he will. Someone will absolutely buy into a 2.45 ERA and 37 saves even with the declining stuff and strikeout numbers.

I agree. I'm just not sure I want to gamble the Reds payflex on it, especially after Papelbon's contract. Really tough call, imo.

Ron Madden
11-19-2011, 03:47 AM
Seems like some fans want to hold on to every veteran on the roster.
I disagree.

The sad but true fact is: The Reds can't afford to sign all of their veteran players to long term contracts.

Ya gotta lock up your keepers when they are young.

The trick is figuring out which young guys to sign long term then getting them to agree to a deal.

MattyHo4Life
11-19-2011, 09:02 AM
Seems like some fans want to hold on to every veteran on the roster.
I disagree.

I'm kind of surprised about that as well. Some fans seem to think that 3Mil isn't much to risk for the chance of a draft pick. I think it's too much unless you really want that player back. In comparison... the Cardinals are expected to non tender Ryan Theriot because he will probably get 3.9Mil in arbitration. The Cardinals could keep him and use him as backup, but they probably feel that is too much for a backup. I think most Cardianls fans agree with that. That money can be used elsewhere. Of course, a draft pick isn't at stake in that situation...so it is a little different, but not a lot. I guess this should be in the Hernandez thread, because the comparison is to Hernandez...not Phillips or Cordero. :)

MattyHo4Life
11-19-2011, 09:16 AM
I agree. I'm just not sure I want to gamble the Reds payflex on it, especially after Papelbon's contract. Really tough call, imo.

I agree with you on this one...it is a tough call. My first thought was that the Reds should without question offer him arbitration. However, there are a lot of closers on the market which are diluting the market. I'm sure there is a lot of demand for Cordero, because a lot of teams would love to have him as their closer. I'm not sure that the demand translates to big multi year deals though. I guess the big question is whether the Reds would be ok with keeping him as closer at more than 12Mil for one more year just in case he accepts arbitration. I seriously doubt any team would offer him 12Mil for a year. So in that regard, accepting arbitration would be very tempting if he doesnt find the multi year deals out there.

BuckeyeRedleg
11-19-2011, 10:15 AM
The Reds should offer COCO and Hernandez arbitration since they are both Type A Free agents. If they accept arbitration you keep roster depth. If they decline arbitration you get draft picks.

I like the idea of not offering them arbitration.

It's not worth taking the chance of them accepting. Draft picks are nice, but the Reds can always make up for not getting those extra picks by continuing to be active in the Latin American (VZ, DR) free agent market.

We maybe could use Coco for cheap. I like Ramon, but I see really no benefit to having him back. Not with Mesoraco and Hanigan around.

lollipopcurve
11-19-2011, 11:49 AM
If the new CBA changes the system so that no team relinquishes picks for Cordero and Hernandez, the Reds absolutely should offer arbitration to Hernandez. Cordero is a little dicier, since he'd get much more dough than Ramon. But I think some team will be willing to give him more on a 2-year deal than the Reds would have to pay in 2012 through arbitration -- with the fall back being a similar 2-year deal the Reds could give him. I'd take the risk, given what we saw Papelbon get and the supposedly strong market for closers.

mth123
11-19-2011, 11:58 AM
If the new CBA changes the system so that no team relinquishes picks for Cordero and Hernandez, the Reds absolutely should offer arbitration to Hernandez. Cordero is a little dicier, since he'd get much more dough than Ramon. But I think some team will be willing to give him more on a 2-year deal than the Reds would have to pay in 2012 through arbitration -- with the fall back being a similar 2-year deal the Reds could give him. I'd take the risk, given what we saw Papelbon get and the supposedly strong market for closers.

I don't know. Multi Millions of the big league budget blown on something you don't need defeats the purpose. The Reason for wanting the picks is to acquire cheap players. Usually cheap players are needed to offset guys who are making too much at the big league level. IMO, the best play is to avoid overspending in the big leagues for interchangeable parts. On the Red's roster, Ramon is just that.

PuffyPig
11-19-2011, 01:15 PM
I'm wondering how many of the people preferring to let a kid like Boxberger close were around when we had Guardado & Weathers as our closers. Have fans so quickly forgotten what our bullpen was like BEFORE Cordero? For a team that's thinking of contending...going into the season with a completely unproven pitcher in the closers role is kinda foolhardy IMO.

Weathers was as good as Cordero as a closer.

And unproven closers succeed all the time.

blumj
11-19-2011, 03:30 PM
And Guardado was a proven closer.

SirFelixCat
11-19-2011, 04:58 PM
No to CoCo, imo. Razor, only if there is a hand-shake deal that he will decline it. Otherwise, no thanks. I appreciate what he did with this team, but his time w/ this team has passed w/ Hanigan & Mesoraco...unless he's going to be a 3rd catcher, PH'er, backup 1B.

Kc61
11-19-2011, 06:01 PM
No to CoCo, imo. Razor, only if there is a hand-shake deal that he will decline it. Otherwise, no thanks. I appreciate what he did with this team, but his time w/ this team has passed w/ Hanigan & Mesoraco...unless he's going to be a 3rd catcher, PH'er, backup 1B.

Actually I thing an arb offer with agreement to decline is more likely in Coco's case.

Difference is that Reds need a closer, may actually want to keep Coco. Unlikely but possible that they will have that arrangement with him.

With Devin M ready, I expect Reds to just cut bait with Ramon. I don't expect the arb with an agreement to decline scenario in his case. We should know soon.

REDREAD
11-19-2011, 11:45 PM
Something else to consider.

If the Reds offer either Coco or Ramon arb, they are going to be paralyzed from making any moves until those players officially refuse arb. The Reds are very fiscally conservative.. As long as there's a threat of a 10+ million contract being handed to Cordero in arb, they aren't going to make any moves.
Even Ramon would hinder moves until the Reds got certainty.

Money is super tight.. why spend part of the offseason with Walt's hands tied as we wait for Ramon and Cordero to decide arb status.
If we offer Cordero arb, don't the rules say we can only cut his pay by 20%..
So Cordero could accept arb and be guaranteed at least 10 million.. At age 36, that might be more attractive than any multiyear deal he'd get as a FA.

Don't flush 2012 down the toilet in hopes of getting an extra draft pick.