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Vottomatic
11-01-2011, 10:28 AM
Just for fun.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/10/2012-top-50-free-agents-1.html

They predict the Reds end up with Josh Willingham and wait for it, wait for it..........Juan Pierre.

Vottomatic
11-01-2011, 11:22 AM
Willingham

2011 488 at-bats,.246, 29 HR's, 98 rbi's, .810 OPS

Heisey
2011 279 at-bats, .254, 18 HR's, 50 rbi's, .797 OPS

Heisey, projected 500 at-bats based on 2011 stats

500 at-bats, 32 HR's, 90 rbi's, same average, etc.

Willingham turns 32 in February. Why sign him to a 3 year deal when you have a guy who turns 27 this December that has nearly the same numbers?

dougdirt
11-01-2011, 11:25 AM
Willingham turns 32 in February. Why sign him to a 3 year deal when you have a guy who turns 27 this December that has nearly the same numbers?

Because Willingham may be able to start every day and the Reds must not think that Heisey does... or he probably would have by now.

Benihana
11-01-2011, 03:23 PM
I'd take Willingham, Sizemore or Beltran for LF on a 2-year deal. I wouldn't want to commit more than that if I were the Reds. It goes without saying, but I have no interest in Pierre.

My first priority would be to secure a #1 or #2 starter, however- but a signing like this may allow that to happen (making Alonso, Stubbs, and/or Heisey more expendable).

Scrap Irony
11-01-2011, 06:35 PM
Willingham

2011 488 at-bats,.246, 29 HR's, 98 rbi's, .810 OPS

Heisey
2011 279 at-bats, .254, 18 HR's, 50 rbi's, .797 OPS

Heisey, projected 500 at-bats based on 2011 stats

500 at-bats, 32 HR's, 90 rbi's, same average, etc.

Willingham turns 32 in February. Why sign him to a 3 year deal when you have a guy who turns 27 this December that has nearly the same numbers?

Why not both?

Heisey also plays a passable CF, fwiw. (His dWAR numbers compare with Drew Stubbs across the board, though in fewer innings than is comfortable to predict.)

Scrap Irony
11-01-2011, 06:39 PM
I'd take Willingham, Sizemore or Beltran for LF on a 2-year deal. I wouldn't want to commit more than that if I were the Reds. It goes without saying, but I have no interest in Pierre.

My first priority would be to secure a #1 or #2 starter, however- but a signing like this may allow that to happen (making Alonso, Stubbs, and/or Heisey more expendable).

That would be fine for me as well. I'd love to have Beltran, but there's little chance the Reds could afford him.

MikeThierry
11-01-2011, 07:19 PM
I understand the issue they bring up about Fielder being drafted by the Mariners but I just don't see him going there.

WVRed
11-01-2011, 07:44 PM
I understand the issue they bring up about Fielder being drafted by the Mariners but I just don't see him going there.

Me neither. Safeco Field is where power hitters go to die. There is a reason Griffey and ARod both wanted out of there.

If I were the Mariners I would take the Padres approach. Build a team entirely around pitching and play to the strengths of your ballpark. Offering multi-millions to a player who will never live up to the expectations in that ballpark is kinda ridiculous.

I'd take a chance on Grady Sizemore and keep Heisey as a platoon player. If Sizemore works out, you have someone who works better at leading off.

Reds/Flyers Fan
11-02-2011, 01:31 PM
Juan Pierre, as awful as that acquisition would be, fits what the Reds do in the offseason to a tee under this Jocketty/Baker/Castellini regime.

See:

Patterson, Corey

Taveras, Willie

Vottomatic
11-02-2011, 04:08 PM
Me neither. Safeco Field is where power hitters go to die. There is a reason Griffey and ARod both wanted out of there.

If I were the Mariners I would take the Padres approach. Build a team entirely around pitching and play to the strengths of your ballpark. Offering multi-millions to a player who will never live up to the expectations in that ballpark is kinda ridiculous.

I'd take a chance on Grady Sizemore and keep Heisey as a platoon player. If Sizemore works out, you have someone who works better at leading off.

Well, sure. I'd sign Willingham, Sizemore or Beltran if Stubbs gets traded and Heisey moves to CF. Then we need a LFer, so it makes sense.

cinreds21
11-03-2011, 01:05 AM
Free agency begins! And here we go...

MikeThierry
11-03-2011, 01:10 AM
What do you all think the biggest surprise will be in the free agency period? Obviously Pujols and Fielder are the big names so it doesn't surprise me anywhere they land. What I mean is will there be any shocking trades or deals made?

RedsManRick
11-03-2011, 01:12 AM
CJ Wilson ends up a Yankee. They replace him with Yu Darvish.

MikeThierry
11-03-2011, 01:14 AM
CJ Wilson ends up a Yankee. They replace him with Yu Darvish.

I have heard a lot about Yu Darvish. What makes him different from other Japanese players that have come over and had limited success?

RedsManRick
11-03-2011, 01:18 AM
I have heard a lot about Yu Darvish. What makes him different from other Japanese players that have come over and had limited success?

Other than being half Iranian, I'm not sure.

The Operator
11-03-2011, 03:14 AM
I have heard a lot about Yu Darvish. What makes him different from other Japanese players that have come over and had limited success?
This has probably been said about the last few to come over, but supposedly he is "different". I know one thing he has going for him is a very good size frame, 6'5" I believe.

Ron Madden
11-03-2011, 04:49 AM
Good Lord! I hope Walt keeps Juan Pierre away from Dusty Baker.

RBA
11-03-2011, 02:44 PM
$225-230MM over nine years seems a fair compromise for the Cardinals and their superstar first baseman.

I hope the Cardinals do it. :D

TRF
11-03-2011, 03:17 PM
hmmm. biggest surprise? Toronto enters the sweepstakes for both Fielder and Pujols and Darvish, signing one of the 1B and Darvish.

blumj
11-03-2011, 07:25 PM
hmmm. biggest surprise? Toronto enters the sweepstakes for both Fielder and Pujols and Darvish, signing one of the 1B and Darvish.

At this point, I'd be surprised if the Jays didn't do something surprising.

Mario-Rijo
11-03-2011, 09:07 PM
At this point, I'd be surprised if the Jays didn't do something surprising.

Boy I sure hope they sign Fielder or even Pujols (doubt the latter would happen though) then maybe the Votto stuff would come to a halt.

cinreds21
11-03-2011, 09:08 PM
Boy I sure hope they sign Fielder or even Pujols (doubt the latter would happen though) then maybe the Votto stuff would come to a halt.

They could always use a new left fielder...

Mario-Rijo
11-03-2011, 09:10 PM
They could always use a new left fielder...

No one in MLB is foolish enough to stick Votto in LF. There simply is no reason to when he plays 1B at a well above average level and his bat keeps him there.

Check that: GG level defense.

cinreds21
11-03-2011, 09:16 PM
Sarcasm bruh.

Mario-Rijo
11-03-2011, 09:58 PM
Sarcasm bruh.

I hope so but some on here don't think it's a bad idea. Tough to tell which is which sometimes.

WVRed
11-03-2011, 11:52 PM
I still see the Marlins being players for Pujols:


New ballpark opening
Latino superstar
Need power hitter in middle of lineup
Veteran leadership for a young team
Relevancy in Miami (The Heat's Big Three and likely Andrew Luck coming to the Dolphins)

dougdirt
11-03-2011, 11:59 PM
No one in MLB is foolish enough to stick Votto in LF. There simply is no reason to when he plays 1B at a well above average level and his bat keeps him there.

Check that: GG level defense.

Sure there is. At every other position on the field, his bat is even more valuable than it is right now at first base. If he can field another position adequately, it makes a ton of sense to move him, even if he is a very strong defender at first base because it provides your team more value when you can then plug in someone else at first base who is also a good hitter and probably a solid enough fielder.

cinreds21
11-04-2011, 12:42 AM
I still see the Marlins being players for Pujols:


New ballpark opening
Latino superstar
Need power hitter in middle of lineup
Veteran leadership for a young team
Relevancy in Miami (The Heat's Big Three and likely Andrew Luck coming to the Dolphins)


That's what we are hoping for.

REDREAD
11-04-2011, 01:44 AM
Sure there is. At every other position on the field, his bat is even more valuable than it is right now at first base. If he can field another position adequately, it makes a ton of sense to move him, even if he is a very strong defender at first base because it provides your team more value when you can then plug in someone else at first base who is also a good hitter and probably a solid enough fielder.

I disagree.
The experiment of moving Aaron Boone to 2b is a prime example.
Boone never got comfortable, and his hitting suffered.
Why ask your MVP 1b to move to LF and embarass himself? Do you think he's going to want to stay longterm if the Reds did something sillly like that to him?

Take this hypothetical person you are going to plug in at 1b (Alonso) and move him to LF or trade him for a real LF.. That makes a lot more sense.

Doug, no offense, but statements like the above totally ignore the human element of the game and treat it as if it was a computer simulation.

MikeThierry
11-04-2011, 01:48 AM
I still see the Marlins being players for Pujols:

* New ballpark opening
* Latino superstar
* Need power hitter in middle of lineup
* Veteran leadership for a young team
* Relevancy in Miami (The Heat's Big Three and likely Andrew Luck coming to the Dolphins)


I totally agree here. The teams I see Pujols going to are the Cards, Texas with that 80 million plus TV contract per year, Florida, and The Los Angeles Angels of Anheim California World Universe 4th dimension.


Why ask your MVP 1b to move to LF and embarass himself? Do you think he's going to want to stay longterm if the Reds did something sillly like that to him?

gahh.. this is a reason why the NL needs a DH, haha :)

redsfandan
11-04-2011, 02:25 AM
I disagree.
The experiment of moving Aaron Boone to 2b is a prime example.
Boone never got comfortable, and his hitting suffered.
Why ask your MVP 1b to move to LF and embarass himself? Do you think he's going to want to stay longterm if the Reds did something sillly like that to him?

Take this hypothetical person you are going to plug in at 1b (Alonso) and move him to LF or trade him for a real LF.. That makes a lot more sense.

Doug, no offense, but statements like the above totally ignore the human element of the game and treat it as if it was a computer simulation.

Unfortunately, I think that's probably a mistake that is made too often (not by Doug, by fans in general).

dougdirt
11-04-2011, 03:03 AM
I disagree.
The experiment of moving Aaron Boone to 2b is a prime example.
Boone never got comfortable, and his hitting suffered.
Why ask your MVP 1b to move to LF and embarass himself? Do you think he's going to want to stay longterm if the Reds did something sillly like that to him?

Take this hypothetical person you are going to plug in at 1b (Alonso) and move him to LF or trade him for a real LF.. That makes a lot more sense.

Doug, no offense, but statements like the above totally ignore the human element of the game and treat it as if it was a computer simulation.

I don't think Votto is staying unless Castellini wins the powerball and gives it to Votto.

Votto has also played left field before and was fine out there. So the idea that he would embarrass himself isn't a good one.

And to be honest, any scenario where you put a player ahead of the team, to me, makes a lot less sense. Trading or moving the lesser defender to a position to appease a player, even a great one, is something that is done far too often at the expense of the team being better.

Everyone has their ego's, but if I were a GM, I wouldn't be paying a manager millions of dollars to coddle someone so my team in turn performs worse because one of the players can't handle the idea of being asked to move. Maybe I am ignoring the human element, or maybe someone just needs to put their foot up someone's butt and tell them what they are going to do and that it is what is best for the team and the team is more important than you as an individual. If that player can't handle that, then I probably don't want him on the team anyways because how is he ever going to handle any real adversity?

With that said, the Reds aren't going to ruffle Votto's feathers because he seems to have the mental make up of someone who would not adjust well to that.

I am not pretending this is some video game. It isn't like I am asking Prince Fielder to move to left field. Joey Votto is pretty fit, especially for a first baseman. He could handle the move, physically. In fact, he could do so incredibly better than the guy they are actually moving out there, which seems a lot more like a video game move than a real life one because of how ridiculous it is that they are asking the bigger, slower player to move for the leaner and faster player.

redsfandan
11-04-2011, 03:45 AM
I don't think Votto is staying unless Castellini wins the powerball and gives it to Votto.

Votto has also played left field before and was fine out there. So the idea that he would embarrass himself isn't a good one.

And to be honest, any scenario where you put a player ahead of the team, to me, makes a lot less sense. Trading or moving the lesser defender to a position to appease a player, even a great one, is something that is done far too often at the expense of the team being better.

Everyone has their ego's, but if I were a GM, I wouldn't be paying a manager millions of dollars to coddle someone so my team in turn performs worse because one of the players can't handle the idea of being asked to move. Maybe I am ignoring the human element, or maybe someone just needs to put their foot up someone's butt and tell them what they are going to do and that it is what is best for the team and the team is more important than you as an individual. If that player can't handle that, then I probably don't want him on the team anyways because how is he ever going to handle any real adversity?

With that said, the Reds aren't going to ruffle Votto's feathers because he seems to have the mental make up of someone who would not adjust well to that.

I am not pretending this is some video game. It isn't like I am asking Prince Fielder to move to left field. Joey Votto is pretty fit, especially for a first baseman. He could handle the move, physically. In fact, he could do so incredibly better than the guy they are actually moving out there, which seems a lot more like a video game move than a real life one because of how ridiculous it is that they are asking the bigger, slower player to move for the leaner and faster player.

There's some logic to the idea of Alonso playing 1st and Votto left. Except that Votto won't do it. We could start a separate thread about how teams coddle players and let them play wherever they want to play. But, it's not going to change anything. Anyone that is put in the position of gm realizes that there will be players like that. Sometimes you can make them do what you want. The rest of the time you can't. So, say you're the gm and you say that Votto WILL play left. What do you do when he says no?

lollipopcurve
11-04-2011, 08:30 AM
Re: Votto not moving -- let's remember that there were a couple moves the Reds wanted Barry Larkin to make, one in the field very early in his career, the other in the lineup. Larkin resisted both.

If it's a role player, maybe it's a problem. If it's an MVP, you don't worry about it.

WVRed
11-04-2011, 11:58 AM
I totally agree here. The teams I see Pujols going to are the Cards, Texas with that 80 million plus TV contract per year, Florida, and The Los Angeles Angels of Anheim California World Universe 4th dimension.

I think Texas will be more in the market for a pitcher if CJ Wilson decides to leave. Still, a Pujols-Hamilton middle of the lineup would be something to see.

I would have thought the Cubs would be in the thick of it, but with Theo running the show, its hard to tell.

Scrap Irony
11-04-2011, 12:57 PM
I totally agree here. The teams I see Pujols going to are the Cards, Texas with that 80 million plus TV contract per year, Florida, and The Los Angeles Angels of Anheim California World Universe 4th dimension.

I'd add Boston (they won't make the mistake of overspending on Ortiz as a DH only and are looking for a change), New York (AL) (as a DH and utility guy who can play 3B, LF, and 1B), Chicago (NL) (Theo wants to make a splash and has tons of cash-- Pujols also gets the goat of the Cardinals), Los Angeles (assuming ownership is figured out before he signs), Baltimore (need and a burgeoning team that needs a masher in the middle), and Washington (1B as Morse moves to the OF again) to be interested.

Benihana
11-04-2011, 05:36 PM
There's some logic to the idea of Alonso playing 1st and Votto left. Except that Votto won't do it. We could start a separate thread about how teams coddle players and let them play wherever they want to play. But, it's not going to change anything. Anyone that is put in the position of gm realizes that there will be players like that. Sometimes you can make them do what you want. The rest of the time you can't. So, say you're the gm and you say that Votto WILL play left. What do you do when he says no?

I believe Bowden put Alfonso Soriano to the test with this, and Bowden won.

Joey Votto has a contract with the Reds that goes through 2013. By almost all accounts, he is likely to leave via FA after that contract expires. So, what's Joey going to do, quit like Carson Palmer?

redsfandan
11-05-2011, 11:39 AM
I believe Bowden put Alfonso Soriano to the test with this, and Bowden won.

Joey Votto has a contract with the Reds that goes through 2013. By almost all accounts, he is likely to leave via FA after that contract expires. So, what's Joey going to do, quit like Carson Palmer?

I had a feeling that name would be mentioned. It's also pretty rare that Bowden is mentioned in a positive way. Well, you'd probably hurt any chances of keeping Votto past 2013 if you forced him to move when he doesn't want to.

WVRed
11-05-2011, 12:31 PM
Re: Votto not moving -- let's remember that there were a couple moves the Reds wanted Barry Larkin to make, one in the field very early in his career, the other in the lineup. Larkin resisted both.

If it's a role player, maybe it's a problem. If it's an MVP, you don't worry about it.

I remember Larkin moving in the batting order. He did hit leadoff for a little bit, although I think it was begrudgingly.

In Votto's case, we are talking about a gold glove first baseman. I don't think it's a good comparison. Larkin was past his prime when the Reds asked him to switch positions (which may have prolonged his career a year or two). Votto is in his prime and the Reds have another prospect at his position.

dougdirt
11-05-2011, 12:33 PM
I had a feeling that name would be mentioned. It's also pretty rare that Bowden is mentioned in a positive way. Well, you'd probably hurt any chances of keeping Votto past 2013 if you forced him to move when he doesn't want to.
Except the fact that you are the Cincinnati Reds all but kills your chances of keeping him anyways. As for what you do when he says no.... well, we know what the Reds did, they catered to him. Let's not kid ourselves, he was asked to move and he said no. What I would do with someone not of the mindset of Votto? Have the manager write his name in left field on the line up card.