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jojo
11-03-2011, 09:26 AM
This video seems to speak for itself. At least I can't imagine a context where the content of this video could be taken out of context.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/02/justice/texas-video-beating/?hpt=hp_t2

Can a judge do this and still be trusted to do his job?

PickOff
11-03-2011, 11:21 AM
This video seems to speak for itself. At least I can't imagine a context where the content of this video could be taken out of context.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/02/justice/texas-video-beating/?hpt=hp_t2

Can a judge do this and still be trusted to do his job?

I can understand that this beating needs to be investigated to determine if it was legal corporal punishment or illegal abuse. If it is determined to be abuse, then the judge should lose his job, if not then the judge should be retained. Either way, he will likely not get reelected. See the link below for the difference between corporal punishment and abuse.

http://resources.lawinfo.com/en/Articles/Criminal-Law/Federal/when-does-discipline-become-abuse.html

It seems to me that his actions on this video would not legally constitute abuse.

RFS62
11-03-2011, 05:33 PM
It happened in Texas. Kid is lucky he didn't just shoot her.

757690
11-03-2011, 10:28 PM
Corporal punishment should never last longer than a minute. Imagine someone hitting you repeatedly for a minute. Usually 10 seconds is enough to be very effective.

Anything longer than a minute is usually considered abuse. This lasted 7 1/2 minutes. It's not even a close call.

RedsManRick
11-03-2011, 10:37 PM
While I personally think his actions are reprehensible, even if the actions were criminal, the statute of limitations for these actions is 5 years -- per CNN. So there probably won't be legs to the "news story" angle on this. Maybe he'll step down, maybe not. He probably won't be re-elected.

dougdirt
11-03-2011, 10:48 PM
I think that he can do that and still be trusted to do his job. I think he may have gone a little too far there for my own personal taste, but I also don't think that is child abuse either.

Redlegs23
11-03-2011, 11:23 PM
Using a belt and swinging it with the force that he was using is overboard. I'm fine with spanking and whatnot, but swinging a belt as hard as possible to inflict pain on your child for over 7 straight minutes is definitely child abuse in my opinion.

Johnny Footstool
11-03-2011, 11:32 PM
While I personally think his actions are reprehensible, even if the actions were criminal, the statute of limitations for these actions is 5 years -- per CNN. So there probably won't be legs to the "news story" angle on this. Maybe he'll step down, maybe not. He probably won't be re-elected.

The daughter could claim that the abuse was ongoing for a number of years after that video. The video could certainly serve as evidence to support that claim.

RedsManRick
11-03-2011, 11:38 PM
The daughter could claim that the abuse was ongoing for a number of years after that video. The video could certainly serve as evidence to support that claim.

The video would support the initial claim of abuse. But there's no evidence that it was ongoing.

redsfandan
11-04-2011, 12:38 AM
The video would support the initial claim of abuse. But there's no evidence that it was ongoing.

None that we know of ... yet. Who knows if anything else might come out.

oneupper
11-04-2011, 05:45 AM
Corporal punishment should never last longer than a minute. Imagine someone hitting you repeatedly for a minute. Usually 10 seconds is enough to be very effective.

Anything longer than a minute is usually considered abuse. This lasted 7 1/2 minutes. It's not even a close call.

A minute is still one minute too long in my book.
Guys like this judge make my blood boil, we should string him up and...(oops, wait a minute).

Redsfaithful
11-04-2011, 09:47 AM
Frankly, I'm shocked that anyone is ok with what went on in that video, even though I should really know better.

George Anderson
11-04-2011, 11:52 AM
He might of seemed a little over the top but in todays day and age when poor behavior is ignored by parents it is kinda nice to see a parent correct a child as opposed to ignoring it and flipping through the channels.

Danny Serafini
11-04-2011, 12:20 PM
I sure am glad a few of you aren't my dad.

1990REDS
11-04-2011, 12:54 PM
Just curious if any of the people that think this was ok have seen the full 7 minute version or just the cut up one in the link above. The full video also shows him grabbing her by the throat a couple of minutes in. Honestly I can't comprehend how someone could beat a dog with a leather belt for 7 minutes let alone another human being. Maybe this just brings up bad memories from my own experience with a abusive father, but the full 7 minute video is hard to watch. Actually it kinda ruined my day.

cumberlandreds
11-04-2011, 02:29 PM
I'm not against corporal punishment at all for a child. But this went way overboard. It was abuse,IMO. Seven minutes of that is too much and the way in which he was doing it was more to inflict pain than to correct. I was spanked by hand and with a switch off a tree many times when I was young and it was nothing to this degree. Also 14 is little too old for corporal punishment too. Especially to a girl. You really have to wonder about the dad.

WMR
11-04-2011, 02:47 PM
He deserves to have HIS a** kicked. I'd love to see him try to use that belt on me.

RFS62
11-04-2011, 03:27 PM
He deserves to have HIS a** kicked. I'd love to see him try to use that belt on me.


I was just thinking the same thing.

What a piece of crap human being this is. And he sits in judgment of others.

I was spanked when I was a kid. I'm not against it. This is different. This is a beating, child abuse.

He deserves to go to jail and get his a** kicked every day from inmates who were abused themselves.

dougdirt
11-04-2011, 03:33 PM
Just curious if any of the people that think this was ok have seen the full 7 minute version or just the cut up one in the link above. The full video also shows him grabbing her by the throat a couple of minutes in. Honestly I can't comprehend how someone could beat a dog with a leather belt for 7 minutes let alone another human being. Maybe this just brings up bad memories from my own experience with a abusive father, but the full 7 minute video is hard to watch. Actually it kinda ruined my day.

I only saw the short, cut up video. Grabbing a child by the throat, particularly a female? Incredibly over the line (I say a female, because I have personally seen full out fights between teenage sons and their fathers where it has almost been a "him or me" situation and in that case, I would understand such a scenario in terms of just generally protecting ones self). From what I originally watched, I saw something like 10 swats of the belt on the legs. Still a little much for my taste, but there is an incredibly large difference between that and what the full video shows.

Larry Schuler
11-04-2011, 09:24 PM
How many belt slaps/minutes of choking should a wife get before it becomes spousal abuse? I know it depends on if you are into old school wife discipline or new school wife discipline.

GAC
11-05-2011, 04:57 AM
I'm not against corporal punishment at all for a child. But this went way overboard. It was abuse,IMO.

Yep. There is a difference between disciplining a child, such as spanking, and what went on here. This was absolutely abuse, and it disgusts me that any parent would do that to a child (regardless of what they may have done). No excuse.


I was spanked by hand and with a switch off a tree many times when I was young and it was nothing to this degree.

We actually got spanked with a wooden paddle. Then along came the hot wheels track. I knew I should have asked for a Slinky instead at Christmas :p

My Dad wasn't a strict disciplinarian, and when me and my brothers got spanked we deserved it. We definitely weren't angels growing up.

I think the biggest thing with me and my brother's was the "psychological pressure" we had to deal with all day when Mom said "Wait till your Dad gets home!". It kinda ruined your day because of the waiting to 6 PM rolled around.

LOL

RFS62
11-05-2011, 10:27 AM
I think the biggest thing with me and my brother's was the "psychological pressure" we had to deal with all day when Mom said "Wait till your Dad gets home!". It kinda ruined your day because of the waiting to 6 PM rolled around.

LOL



Yep, with me, I'd much rather take a spanking than have to listen to a lecture from my mother growing up. I remember once when she was paddling me, she was crying and saying "this hurts me more than it hurts you". I told her "then why don't you stop!?!"

Didn't work.

Unassisted
11-05-2011, 03:44 PM
The girl in the video now lives here in San Antonio. This happened 7 years ago. Her dad says she held the release of this tape over his head for a portion of that time. She only released it when he quit bankrolling her living expenses and took away her use of a Mercedes he owned. In the meantime, the statute of limitations lapsed, which means no legal action can be taken against him.

Child abuse is illegal in this country, and so is blackmail. There are no heroes in this situation.

Yachtzee
11-05-2011, 04:53 PM
I can understand that this beating needs to be investigated to determine if it was legal corporal punishment or illegal abuse. If it is determined to be abuse, then the judge should lose his job, if not then the judge should be retained. Either way, he will likely not get reelected. See the link below for the difference between corporal punishment and abuse.

http://resources.lawinfo.com/en/Articles/Criminal-Law/Federal/when-does-discipline-become-abuse.html

It seems to me that his actions on this video would not legally constitute abuse.

Corporal punishment doesn't apply since its not a school setting. Whether the punishment constitutes discipline or abuse would be decided on the physical/emotional harm question if put before a jury. Considering the duration and that this was not an isolated incident, based on statements by daughter, mom and the fact that daughter was aware of potential abuse to set up a camera, i'd say it wouldn't be to hard for a jury to find abuse. People have been convicted of felony abuse and child endangerment for less.

If this judge is a family court judge, his presence on the bench calls into question the legitimacy of the legal system in that jurisdiction, particularly when it comes to abuse cases.

Yachtzee
11-05-2011, 04:55 PM
The girl in the video now lives here in San Antonio. This happened 7 years ago. Her dad says she held the release of this tape over his head for a portion of that time. She only released it when he quit bankrolling her living expenses and took away her use of a Mercedes he owned. In the meantime, the statute of limitations lapsed, which means no legal action can be taken against him.

Child abuse is illegal in this country, and so is blackmail. There are no heroes in this situation.

Of course he's going to say that. CYA.

redsfandan
11-05-2011, 05:44 PM
Corporal punishment doesn't apply since its not a school setting. Whether the punishment constitutes discipline or abuse would be decided on the physical/emotional harm question if put before a jury. Considering the duration and that this was not an isolated incident, based on statements by daughter, mom and the fact that daughter was aware of potential abuse to set up a camera, i'd say it wouldn't be to hard for a jury to find abuse. People have been convicted of felony abuse and child endangerment for less.

If this judge is a family court judge, his presence on the bench calls into question the legitimacy of the legal system in that jurisdiction, particularly when it comes to abuse cases.

I don't think he's currently on the bench. Pretty sure he got a little vacation while the allegations were looked into. While the DA said that he won't be charged criminally (because it was so long ago) it seems that whether he returns to the bench is up in the air. Plus there's the issue of whether this would affect custody of his younger daughter (think she's 10).

RFS62
11-05-2011, 05:50 PM
The girl in the video now lives here in San Antonio. This happened 7 years ago. Her dad says she held the release of this tape over his head for a portion of that time. She only released it when he quit bankrolling her living expenses and took away her use of a Mercedes he owned. In the meantime, the statute of limitations lapsed, which means no legal action can be taken against him.

Child abuse is illegal in this country, and so is blackmail. There are no heroes in this situation.



Gosh, it's hard to imagine how she might turn out twisted after the stellar upbringing she enjoyed.

Redsfaithful
11-05-2011, 09:06 PM
The girl in the video now lives here in San Antonio. This happened 7 years ago. Her dad says she held the release of this tape over his head for a portion of that time. She only released it when he quit bankrolling her living expenses and took away her use of a Mercedes he owned. In the meantime, the statute of limitations lapsed, which means no legal action can be taken against him.

Child abuse is illegal in this country, and so is blackmail. There are no heroes in this situation.

I'd say she's owed a hell of a lot more than some money and use of a car for having gone through that. Sounds to me like he got off cheap, he should have ended up in jail.

The Operator
11-06-2011, 01:49 AM
Wow. I was spanked as a child and I'm perfectly okay with it as a form of punishment, but I don't see how anyone can watch that video and not see it for what it is: a savage beating.

Here's to hoping he never works in the legal system again unless it's stamping license plates in prison. Guys like that are truly the scum of the earth.

Rojo
11-06-2011, 01:25 AM
He might of seemed a little over the top but in todays day and age when poor behavior is ignored by parents it is kinda nice to see a parent correct a child as opposed to ignoring it and flipping through the channels.

Yeah, that was real "nice". The kids you see "acting up" in public. Most of them are probably walloped at home.

Brutus
11-06-2011, 01:32 AM
I was spanked as a kid and frankly I think it helped instill some discipline. It sure made me think twice about acting up. I'm wholly in favor of parents being able to use corporal punishment and I find it interesting that many kids who have been subjected to it have turned out terrific, and in fact are raising their kids in a stable, disciplined home.

Based on what I saw in this video: I'm not disturbed by the punishment as much as perhaps the extent or reported length of the punishment. I think long-lasting punishment can cross a fine line into abuse. I'd be more worried about the extent than the punishment itself.

SunDeck
11-06-2011, 07:04 AM
He might of seemed a little over the top but in todays day and age when poor behavior is ignored by parents it is kinda nice to see a parent correct a child as opposed to ignoring it and flipping through the channels.

A little over the top?
The guy is swinging for the fences, whipping her like a mule.

I did not find that "Nice to see".

oneupper
11-06-2011, 07:07 AM
My parents didn't hit me. I don't hit my kids. I don't want my kids hitting my grandkids when they have them.
There are other forms of correcting behaviour.

George Anderson
11-06-2011, 10:06 AM
A little over the top?
The guy is swinging for the fences, whipping her like a mule.

I did not find that "Nice to see".

Again, I don't necessarily condone what the judge did especially with the belt. At the same time I see the other side of this issue where to many parents now a days would ignore or make excuses for the wrong doing of a child. IMO what the parents do by ignoring or excusing a childs poor behavior is also a form of child abuse.

I would have been more appalled at seeing a video where the kid gets caught stealing, the parent lights up a cig, tells them no to do it again and asks what is for dinner. To many parents now a days are negligent in their parenting and while this judge did go over top it is no worse than a parent ignoring or condoning a childs behavior which is very much another form of child abuse.

redsfandan
11-06-2011, 11:40 AM
Again, I don't necessarily condone what the judge did especially with the belt. At the same time I see the other side of this issue where to many parents now a days would ignore or make excuses for the wrong doing of a child. IMO what the parents do by ignoring or excusing a childs poor behavior is also a form of child abuse.

I would have been more appalled at seeing a video where the kid gets caught stealing, the parent lights up a cig, tells them no to do it again and asks what is for dinner. To many parents now a days are negligent in their parenting and while this judge did go over top it is no worse than a parent ignoring or condoning a childs behavior which is very much another form of child abuse.

That's not child abuse. That's just bad parenting. Yes, they're both bad. Doesn't mean that they're the same though. There is a difference.

jojo
11-06-2011, 11:42 AM
In this case, allowing the daughter to play the video game was the lesser evil.

zacharync
11-06-2011, 01:05 PM
My parents didn't hit me. I don't hit my kids. I don't want my kids hitting my grandkids when they have them.
There are other forms of correcting behaviour.

+1

George Anderson
11-06-2011, 01:20 PM
That's not child abuse. That's just bad parenting. Yes, they're both bad. Doesn't mean that they're the same though. There is a difference.

Other than the belt being used I really had no problem with what the judge did. If you want to say using the belt was abuse then I may be inclined to go along with that but for the most part what I saw was a parent frustrated with a child that simply would not respect or obey his discipline. You can take away things, talk to them, seeking counseling etc but there comes a time when dealing with children when the tactics the judge took are very necessary. Again, minus the belt.

The thing is there is more to this story than the video clip we just saw. The media is making this girl out to be little Shirley Temple who was being beaten by a big bad mean bully, when for all we know this child could have been a complete devil who was a constant thorn in her parents side. Besides lets look at this child as an adult who admittedly released this video out of spite because her parents took away her Mercedes and monthly allowance. Give me a break, this person does not give off the persona of a little innocent Shirley Temple but instead a vindictive devil.

The Operator
11-06-2011, 02:28 PM
I haven't heard where she admits to releasing it because of him taking away money or a Mercedes. That's been the PR spin that what was put out by his camp.

According to her, she released it because he was harassing her and her mother.

Brutus
11-06-2011, 04:28 PM
My parents didn't hit me. I don't hit my kids. I don't want my kids hitting my grandkids when they have them.
There are other forms of correcting behaviour.

That's certainly your prerogative. It doesn't mean it's the right way or the only way to do it.

redsfandan
11-06-2011, 05:55 PM
Other than the belt being used I really had no problem with what the judge did. If you want to say using the belt was abuse then I may be inclined to go along with that but for the most part what I saw was a parent frustrated with a child that simply would not respect or obey his discipline. You can take away things, talk to them, seeking counseling etc but there comes a time when dealing with children when the tactics the judge took are very necessary. Again, minus the belt.

The thing is there is more to this story than the video clip we just saw. The media is making this girl out to be little Shirley Temple who was being beaten by a big bad mean bully, when for all we know this child could have been a complete devil who was a constant thorn in her parents side. Besides lets look at this child as an adult who admittedly released this video out of spite because her parents took away her Mercedes and monthly allowance. Give me a break, this person does not give off the persona of a little innocent Shirley Temple but instead a vindictive devil.

The fact that he used a belt on the girl isn't the problem. The problem is that he used a belt to hit her for SEVERAL minutes AND he grabbed her by the throat at least once.

Parents have to deal with kids that get out of line all the time. And alot of parents will use spanking, a belt, etc when they feel they have to. But, I doubt many of those parents do it for more than a minute.

Larry Schuler
11-06-2011, 07:21 PM
When my sons were young and would misbehave I'd go to the local gym to let out my aggression. Better workout and cardio than whipping my kids and now my kids are members of the same gym too. This stuff has a knack for repeating itself.

SunDeck
11-06-2011, 08:55 PM
The hardest thing about parenting is not taking it personally when your kids act like dunderheads. This guy isn't teaching the girl a lesson, or punishing her, he's beating her. It's easy to hit a kid, but it's difficult to tell them they have lost their computer privileges for six months because it requires oversight and paying attention to enforce it.
If you're going to set rules, you have to have a plan of what you'll do when the kids don't follow them. This guy has no plan other than to whip her.

GAC
11-07-2011, 05:04 AM
The hardest thing about parenting is not taking it personally when your kids act like dunderheads. This guy isn't teaching the girl a lesson, or punishing her, he's beating her. It's easy to hit a kid, but it's difficult to tell them they have lost their computer privileges for six months because it requires oversight and paying attention to enforce it.
If you're going to set rules, you have to have a plan of what you'll do when the kids don't follow them. This guy has no plan other than to whip her.

Bingo!

I learned from a child psychologist many years ago that when it came to raising a child you not only have to set reasonable boundaries (dependent on age), but also insure the child understands them. And every child is obviously different. I was a strong-willed child. One of my kids is too. And when that child deliberately sets out to test your authority and "put that foot over the line to see if you mean business" then you have to act decisively. And that may include a spanking. I was an infrequent spanker. It depended on the situation (severity). But not beating the crap out of the kid and abusing them. And you never spanked a child in anger. You have to be in control of your emotions. And afterwards there has to be positive reinforcement involved with the child.

Mario-Rijo
11-07-2011, 11:26 AM
My pops never spanked us in the heat of the moment, as he put it the idea of a spanking is to punish for the bad behavior (and thus give you a consequence to recall the next time you think about doing poor behavior again) not for him to get his dissatisfaction with you out of his system. The worse part of the spanking was waiting for the heat of the moment to die down, sitting thinking about the whoopin' you were about to receive. I had other family members who didn't use the same train of thought, who basically did what he said not to. Neither scarred me or caused me any pyschological or emotional issues. I whole heartedly believe in spanking, it's one of the few things that I have ever seen actually work no matter the kid or the issue (assuming it was done as my Dad prescribed it and as long as the punishment fit the crime). Some kids will rebel against the lesson (and you, as they should) if you have less than admirable intentions.

But make no mistake this isn't a spanking here this is abuse period. Had that judge saw that in his court he would have called it the same. I really would love to sit him down and speak to him, right after I got my dissatisfaction with him out of my system (via punk slapping him like the little man he is).

Hoosier Red
11-07-2011, 03:24 PM
My biggest problem with the video is all the things that would probably make it inadmissable from a legal standpoint make it all the more disgusting.

She videotaped it, which to me suggests she wanted to catch him in the act, which means she knew what was going to happen to her.

To me this means this likely wasn't a one time thing. It wasn't the first or the last time this guy did this, and so the "I went over the line and apologized" nonsense goes out the window.

jojo
11-07-2011, 03:28 PM
She videotaped it, which to me suggests she wanted to catch him in the act, which means she knew what was going to happen to her.

Wouldn't this argument mean that a bankrobber couldn't be prosecuted based upon security camera footage because the bank knew it was likely to be robbed at some point?

Johnny Footstool
11-08-2011, 12:37 AM
I am in favor of limited corporal punishment for kids -- a couple of swats on the behind with a bare hand, delivered with the tiniest amount of force.

I'm not in favor of using a belt, a switch, a wooden spoon (my mom used to use one), or other objects. The point of a spanking, IMO, isn't really to inflict pain. It's psychological.

This guy was out to inflict pain.

The Operator
11-08-2011, 12:47 AM
I agree, Johnny. I've always thought a spanking was more about breaking a child's pride a little bit after doing something wrong, not hurting them.

That guy was beating the tar out of her.

GAC
11-08-2011, 04:08 AM
I am in favor of limited corporal punishment for kids -- a couple of swats on the behind with a bare hand, delivered with the tiniest amount of force.

I'm not in favor of using a belt, a switch, a wooden spoon (my mom used to use one), or other objects. The point of a spanking, IMO, isn't really to inflict pain. It's psychological.

I was always told that one shouldn't use the bare hand because the child will then "associate" the hand with something negative. Now obviously that doesn't mean you grab a 2x4; but my Dad had a wooden paddle. And he didn't beat the crap out of us per say, but he'd give us anywhere from 5-10 good whacks with it. He'd then tell us to stay in our room to think about what we did, and then he'd come in later to talk it out. But we were three hard headed boys growing up. We never learned. LOL


I agree, Johnny. I've always thought a spanking was more about breaking a child's pride a little bit after doing something wrong, not hurting them.

I agree. Break their pride (somewhat); but not their spirit. A very strong-willed child can be very difficult to deal with. But even so, that's no excuse to beat the tar out of them. Especially when that type of beating (abuse) isn't going to accomplish anything positive other then fuel hatred and resentment in the relationship. You've then defeated the whole purpose of correction.

oneupper
11-08-2011, 09:30 AM
She videotaped it, which to me suggests she wanted to catch him in the act, which means she knew what was going to happen to her.


Shades of the scene in the "Sixth Sense" where the little girl videotaped her Münchausen mom poisoning her.

Scary stuff. What happens to the girl if the Dad would have found out about the tape while she was still in his care?

jojo
11-08-2011, 09:42 AM
If the belt fits, the judge must quit.

Johnny Footstool
11-09-2011, 12:22 AM
I was always told that one shouldn't use the bare hand because the child will then "associate" the hand with something negative.

Yeah, I've heard that as well. But honestly, I'm the one administering the punishment, so my boys are going to associate me with something negative, whether I'm using a tool or not.

And yes, spanking is completely about deflating their egos and teaching them that inappropriate behavior has consequences. Spanking is the final consequence, and honestly, I rarely have to use it. Warnings and the loss of privileges are usually enough.

GAC
11-09-2011, 04:25 AM
Yeah, I've heard that as well. But honestly, I'm the one administering the punishment, so my boys are going to associate me with something negative, whether I'm using a tool or not.

And yes, spanking is completely about deflating their egos and teaching them that inappropriate behavior has consequences. Spanking is the final consequence, and honestly, I rarely have to use it. Warnings and the loss of privileges are usually enough.

By the way - how are those boys of yours doing Johnny? How old are they? Give me some updates buddy, and maybe some pics. I still remember when you had your first one.

I think being a parent taught me more life lessons then anything else.

Rojo
11-09-2011, 04:06 PM
I never wanted to break my son's pride.

Johnny Footstool
11-09-2011, 05:48 PM
By the way - how are those boys of yours doing Johnny? How old are they? Give me some updates buddy, and maybe some pics. I still remember when you had your first one.

I think being a parent taught me more life lessons then anything else.

They're doing very well. My oldest just turned 5. He'll start kindergarden next year. My youngest is about to turn 2. He's loves sports, especially football. He's got a fierce pitching arm, too.