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camisadelgolf
11-03-2011, 07:13 PM
Who is Redszone's #8 prospect?

#1 C Devin Mesoraco
#2 1B/OF Yonder Alonso
#3 C Yasmani Grandal
#4 SS Billy Hamilton
#5 SS Zack Cozart
#6 RHP Dan Corcino
#7 RHP Robert Stephenson

camisadelgolf
11-03-2011, 07:15 PM
Anyone is welcome to start the next poll on Sunday around this time. Otherwise, it may not start until a little later.

cinreds21
11-03-2011, 07:16 PM
I am struggling with who to pick. It's either Soto or Torreyes. I went with the former because of age. (bad reason, but oh well)

camisadelgolf
11-03-2011, 07:17 PM
I'm going with Todd Frazier. I've seen some people act like his lack of position is a weakness when I actually see it as a strength. An .800+ OPS bat plays well at any position, and he happens to play at least three positions pretty well.

cinreds21
11-03-2011, 07:18 PM
It's sad to me that guys like Frazier and others will be ranked so "low" because of how stacked this system is. I am still not a fan of how high a couple of people have been ranked, but oh well.

lollipopcurve
11-03-2011, 07:48 PM
Sappelt

dougdirt
11-03-2011, 08:13 PM
I have Yorman ranked higher than #8, so he is an easy pick for me here. Too much upside for me to vote anyone else above him. I think at this point next year there are going to be plenty of people wondering why he was ranked so low.

bubbachunk
11-03-2011, 08:45 PM
I have Yorman ranked higher than #8, so he is an easy pick for me here. Too much upside for me to vote anyone else above him. I think at this point next year there are going to be plenty of people wondering why he was ranked so low.

In my personal rankings Yorman would be 7-8 because Cozart would probably have not been top 10 for me but Soto is still on the board so I am voting for him. Yorman will be next for me.

crazybob60
11-03-2011, 08:50 PM
I had Boxberger at 7 and Stephenson at 8. So I went with Boxberger here. I look for him to be a stalwart in the pen for the Reds for many years. Can't wait for him to get here hopefully within the next year...

camisadelgolf
11-03-2011, 08:54 PM
Just a friendly reminder from last year: the voting is public, so there really isn't much need to declare who you're voting for and call it a post. It's the equivalent to typing "Yes" and clicking the 'Post Quick Reply' button. If you'd all like, I rephrase the questions as, "Who is RedsZone's #__ Prospect and Why?"

mace
11-03-2011, 08:54 PM
Ronald Torreyes will be headed to High-A at age 19.

He is a career .364 hitter.

He has a career OBP of .419 with an OPS of .935.

His defense at second base has been highly praised.

He runs well.

He plays the game right.

He turned his team around.

Not sure what else he can do.

camisadelgolf
11-03-2011, 09:00 PM
I love Torreyes as a prospect and am very excited about him, but does anyone here see him as having an OPS better than .750? As far as I'm concerned, that's his ceiling, which is pretty solid, but with the players still on the board, I have my sights set higher for the #8 prospect.

The DARK
11-03-2011, 09:00 PM
Ronald Torreyes will be headed to High-A at age 19.

He is a career .364 hitter.

He has a career OBP of .419 with an OPS of .935.

His defense at second base has been highly praised.

He runs well.

He plays the game right.

He turned his team around.

Not sure what else he can do.

Pretty much. He's done it all in a notorious pitcher's league this last year as well. Scouts these days (carries over to the NBA) often vastly overrate size compared against results. He was my pick as well.

dougdirt
11-03-2011, 09:04 PM
I love Torreyes as a prospect and am very excited about him, but does anyone here see him as having an OPS better than .750? As far as I'm concerned, that's his ceiling, which is pretty solid, but with the players still on the board, I have my sights set higher for the #8 prospect.

I think there is a chance he could be better than that. With that said, if he is ever over .800, I would be really surprised.

camisadelgolf
11-03-2011, 09:14 PM
I am struggling with who to pick. It's either Soto or Torreyes. I went with the former because of age. (bad reason, but oh well)
Yeah, it's pretty comical that you used age as a reason to pick someone over Torreyes. However, I think Soto is a great pick here. He hit 31 home runs in only 106 games as a 22-year-old. There's a long list of offensive superstars who have never been able to pull off anything close to that. Fwiw, Votto missed only 1 game this year and hit 'only' 29 home runs. Jay Bruce played 157 games and hit 32 home runs this year. In terms of power alone, we're almost talking Adam Dunn-type numbers.

Kc61
11-03-2011, 09:16 PM
Box made the Rising Stars game in the AFL, showcasing the top prospects.

HokieRed
11-03-2011, 09:26 PM
I had Yorman at 7, still have him at 8, and will keep voting him till he's picked. I think he's being way undervalued here.

camisadelgolf
11-03-2011, 09:32 PM
I think there is a chance he could be better than that. With that said, if he is ever over .800, I would be really surprised.
All I'll say is that people should refer to Jose Altuve (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/altuvjo01.shtml) if they think Torreyes could consistently OPS anywhere near .800.

dougdirt
11-03-2011, 09:53 PM
All I'll say is that people should refer to Jose Altuve (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/altuvjo01.shtml) if they think Torreyes could consistently OPS anywhere near .800.

I don't quite see the connection. Altuve is 21 years old and was rushed to the Majors. Not sure anything about him at this point in his career relates well to Torreyes.

JaxRed
11-03-2011, 09:57 PM
Tony Cingrani... Minor League Baseball's Short Season Starter of the Year

Screwball
11-03-2011, 09:59 PM
Just a friendly reminder from last year: the voting is public, so there really isn't much need to declare who you're voting for and call it a post. It's the equivalent to typing "Yes" and clicking the 'Post Quick Reply' button. If you'd all like, I rephrase the questions as, "Who is RedsZone's #__ Prospect and Why?"

Correct.

mace
11-03-2011, 10:37 PM
All I'll say is that people should refer to Jose Altuve (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/altuvjo01.shtml) if they think Torreyes could consistently OPS anywhere near .800.

Altuve at age 17 (Venez): 343/429/441/870
Torreyes at age 17 (Venez +): 370/434/564/999

Altuve at 18 (rookie): 284/320/433/753
Torreyes at 18 (A): 356/398/457/855

Altuve wasn't within 100 points of Torreyes at either stop, playing (for much of the time) in lesser leagues. Don't really see the comparison.

redsfandan
11-03-2011, 11:31 PM
I have Yorman ranked higher than #8, so he is an easy pick for me here. Too much upside for me to vote anyone else above him. I think at this point next year there are going to be plenty of people wondering why he was ranked so low.

OR why we had 3 pitchers ranked so highly.

Boxberger might make it 3 pitchers in a row. (I hope not but we'll see) I'm really not knocking them cuz they're all good prospects. I just don't know if I'd have any of them above some of the position players left.

fearofpopvol1
11-04-2011, 12:04 AM
I like Sappelt here. He's at least a very good 4th OF and may even be a MLB starter.

camisadelgolf
11-04-2011, 12:07 AM
Correct.
Yes.

camisadelgolf
11-04-2011, 12:17 AM
Altuve at age 17 (Venez): 343/429/441/870
Torreyes at age 17 (Venez +): 370/434/564/999

Altuve at 18 (rookie): 284/320/433/753
Torreyes at 18 (A): 356/398/457/855

Altuve wasn't within 100 points of Torreyes at either stop, playing (for much of the time) in lesser leagues. Don't really see the comparison.
Honestly, when it comes to a sample that small, you could place a lot of the difference in BABIP. You also cherry-picked your stats in comparing their numbers at age 18 (not that you have much to choose from in Torreyes' case). If size and history are indicators, Altuve has more power potential than Torreyes. He has also displayed more plate discipline. Since those are the two main factors in determing OPS, I tend to think a lot of people would say he has the higher ceiling in terms of OPS. As prospects, I'd definitely take Torreyes over Altuve, but Torreyes is capable of only so much.

In regards to Doug's comment, they're both undersized, aggressive at the plate, square the ball up well, have limited power, hit for a high average, have some speed, play solid defense, have a history of playing both third and second base, are both Venezuelan, are both young, etc. If I understand your post correctly, how you don't see a strong comparison is beyond me.

mace
11-04-2011, 12:44 AM
Honestly, when it comes to a sample that small, you could place a lot of the difference in BABIP. You also cherry-picked your stats in comparing their numbers at age 18 (not that you have much to choose from in Torreyes' case). If size and history are indicators, Altuve has more power potential than Torreyes. He has also displayed more plate discipline. Since those are the two main factors in determing OPS, I tend to think a lot of people would say he has the higher ceiling in terms of OPS. As prospects, I'd definitely take Torreyes over Altuve, but Torreyes is capable of only so much.



How did I cherry-pick my numbers at age 18? Since Torreyes was 18 this year, and it was his second year, their only comparable seasons are at ages 17 and 18. Those are the slash lines from those years.

Your comment was, "All I'll say is that people should refer to Jose Altuve if they think Torreyes could consistently OPS anywhere near .800." I used the only stats available to show that Torreyes' OPS numbers are, indeed, much better than Altuve's at the same stage of their careers.

dougdirt
11-04-2011, 01:48 AM
In regards to Doug's comment, they're both undersized, aggressive at the plate, square the ball up well, have limited power, hit for a high average, have some speed, play solid defense, have a history of playing both third and second base, are both Venezuelan, are both young, etc. If I understand your post correctly, how you don't see a strong comparison is beyond me.


Where I get confused is how Altuve is a reason that Torreyes isn't going to do something. Altuve had 150 plate appearances at AA before being promoted to the Majors at age 21. He was incredibly rushed to the Majors and he has had about 3/5's of a season in the Majors at age 21 and you are using him as a cautionary tale. My point is that I just don't get how the comparison is good in terms of using him as such a tale, when its clear he was rushed and he is 21 years old.

mth123
11-04-2011, 03:05 AM
Where I get confused is how Altuve is a reason that Torreyes isn't going to do something. Altuve had 150 plate appearances at AA before being promoted to the Majors at age 21. He was incredibly rushed to the Majors and he has had about 3/5's of a season in the Majors at age 21 and you are using him as a cautionary tale. My point is that I just don't get how the comparison is good in terms of using him as such a tale, when its clear he was rushed and he is 21 years old.

I think the recently deceased Matty Alou provides a good example of what Torreyes could become offensively even if his size prevents him from having much pop at the major league level. With the great reports we've heard about him defensively at 2B, that is a really good player. If he can bring double digit HR power to the mix, its an all star. I have Torreyes in my upper echelon of prospects at number six, just in front of the gap that separates the top 6 from the next 7 to 9 guys who I have rated in the second tier (and the even bigger gap to the next tier).

That said, I went for Sappelt here (who I have ranked at number 4 personally). I'm less a believer in the great tools guys until they show the baseball skills in their performance. Its why I have Y-Rod, Hamilton and Stephenson in that second tier behind the top 6.

Scrap Irony
11-04-2011, 11:51 AM
I think the recently deceased Matty Alou provides a good example of what Torreyes could become offensively even if his size prevents him from having much pop at the major league level. With the great reports we've heard about him defensively at 2B, that is a really good player. If he can bring double digit HR power to the mix, its an all star. I have Torreyes in my upper echelon of prospects at number six, just in front of the gap that separates the top 6 from the next 7 to 9 guys who I have rated in the second tier (and the even bigger gap to the next tier).

That said, I went for Sappelt here (who I have ranked at number 4 personally). I'm less a believer in the great tools guys until they show the baseball skills in their performance. Its why I have Y-Rod, Hamilton and Stephenson in that second tier behind the top 6.

While I quibble about your rankings (I have Torreyes ahead of Sappelt), I see your point.

My argument for Torreyes is that he hit really, really well at a very young age in a tough league on hitters.

That's rarer than Redszone seems to think it is.

He's also a plus defensive player at a key position, which shouldn't be overlooked. He also has plus baseball instincts, power that'll play at the major league level, and plus work ethic, as supported by scout musings.

The only negative, really, is his size.

BuckeyeRedleg
11-04-2011, 12:55 PM
Joe Morgan was very small too. What was he, 5-7 and 155 lbs. in his prime?

I think Torreyes will be great and I struggled with not ranking him higher. I think he's next in line for me at #9.

Scrap Irony
11-04-2011, 01:33 PM
Joe Morgan was very small too.

So were Dustin Pedroia, Omar Vizquel, and Miguel Tejada at the same age Torreyes is right now.

98% (IIRC) of all males really blossom between the ages of 18-21. With weight training, science, nutrition supplements, and the natural progression of the body, Torreyes should be able to continue to display pretty much the same power he's shown up until now physically.

It helps that his hit tool is so high. (Much higher than Altuve's, the same little guy he often gets compared to.) The higher the hit tool, the more likely he can find a gap or three and raise that OPS higher.

Conservatively, he's a 750-ish OPS bat. But his ceiling is much, much higher than that.

dougdirt
11-04-2011, 02:48 PM
Conservatively, he's a 750-ish OPS bat. But his ceiling is much, much higher than that.

Hypothetically, what is his offensive ceiling?

I just don't see his power being enough to be "much, much higher" than .750 OPS. Of course, we may have a different definition of "much, much higher" which is why I am asking. What is the line you see as his ceiling, with a doubles/triples/HR line added in?

Scrap Irony
11-04-2011, 03:47 PM
340/410/470/880

25-35 doubles
5-7 triples
10-15 dingers

Mario-Rijo
11-05-2011, 11:55 AM
Sappelt...but since he has no shot at winning I'll go with Soto who is in this area for me.

RedsManRick
11-05-2011, 12:00 PM
Sappelt...but since he has no shot at winning I'll go with Soto who is in this area for me.

I didn't even see him on here -- I would have voted for him. It would be interesting to see how voting would be different if the players were listed in order of the voting last year

bubbachunk
11-05-2011, 12:06 PM
I still can't believe Box is going to take this when you still have Yorman, Soto, Torreyes, and Sappelt. I wish more Box supports would speak up and explain how they can rank him above those 4 guys.

dougdirt
11-05-2011, 12:24 PM
340/410/470/880

25-35 doubles
5-7 triples
10-15 dingers

That is a very wide range of power there. From the bottom end to the top end of that spectrum, we are talking about a difference in about 50-60 points of slugging. If we go with the low end of 25/5/10, which is still pretty strong for someone his size and a 6% walk rate and a 10% strikeout rate, we are looking at these lines given the different BABIP rates over 600 PA's:



PA AB h 2b 3b hr bb k hbp sh sf babip avg obp slg
600 552 150 25 5 10 36 60 5 5 2 .289 .272 .321 .389
600 552 155 25 5 10 36 60 5 5 2 .300 .281 .329 .399
600 552 160 25 5 10 36 60 5 5 2 .310 .290 .338 .408
600 552 165 25 5 10 36 60 5 5 2 .320 .299 .346 .417
600 552 170 25 5 10 36 60 5 5 2 .331 .308 .355 .426
600 552 175 25 5 10 36 60 5 5 2 .341 .317 .363 .435


At the low end, he isn't coming close to your projected line with those rates. So lets look at if he is at the high end of that spectrum in power.



PA AB h 2b 3b hr bb k hbp sh sf babip avg obp slg
600 552 155 35 7 15 36 60 5 5 2 .292 .281 .329 .451
600 552 160 35 7 15 36 60 5 5 2 .303 .290 .338 .460
600 552 165 35 7 15 36 60 5 5 2 .313 .299 .346 .469
600 552 170 35 7 15 36 60 5 5 2 .324 .308 .355 .478
600 552 175 35 7 15 36 60 5 5 2 .334 .317 .363 .487
600 552 180 35 7 15 36 60 5 5 2 .344 .326 .371 .496


We get a bit closer here, though the average isn't there like you said without a very likely unsustainable BABIP over .360. His walk rate would still need quite a boost to reach the marks you listed as well.

So, am I off in my thinking here with his walk rate (6%) and strikeout rate (10%) compared to what you were thinking?

dougdirt
11-05-2011, 12:28 PM
I still can't believe Box is going to take this when you still have Yorman, Soto, Torreyes, and Sappelt. I wish more Box supports would speak up and explain how they can rank him above those 4 guys.

Agreed. And I feel like I really like Boxberger. But I still don't have him close to the Top 10.

redsfandan
11-05-2011, 12:33 PM
I still can't believe Box is going to take this when you still have Yorman, Soto, Torreyes, and Sappelt. I wish more Box supports would speak up and explain how they can rank him above those 4 guys.

Yep, having all 3 of Corcino, Stephenson, and Boxberger ranked ahead of all 5 of Yorman, Soto, Torreyes, Sappelt, and Frazier is something I just don't get. It's almost like RedsZone wants the perception of the system to be that it's more balanced than it really is and doesn't want to acknowledge that the strength of the system is easily position players.

dougdirt
11-05-2011, 12:43 PM
Yep, having all 3 of Corcino, Stephenson, and Boxberger ranked ahead of all 5 of Yorman, Soto, Torreyes, Sappelt, and Frazier is something I just don't get. It's almost like RedsZone wants the perception of the system to be that it's more balanced than it really is and doesn't want to acknowledge that the strength of the system is easily position players.

I have Corcino ranked ahead of all of those guys and Stephenson ahead of all of them but Yorman. But, I also have Boxberger ranked behind them all.

redsfandan
11-05-2011, 01:04 PM
I have Corcino ranked ahead of all of those guys and Stephenson ahead of all of them but Yorman. But, I also have Boxberger ranked behind them all.

And there ya go. I get that you like Corcino but you're saying that you had one of the position players ahead of one of the pitchers and ALL of the position players ahead of Box. It just makes me wonder how many people had 3 pitchers in their top 8.

dougdirt
11-05-2011, 01:07 PM
And there ya go. I get that you like Corcino but you're saying that you had one of the position players ahead of one of the pitchers and ALL of the position players ahead of Box. I just makes me wonder how many people had 3 pitchers in their top 8.

I imagine those who have it that way place a lot of value on individual relievers.

HokieRed
11-05-2011, 01:11 PM
And there ya go. I get that you like Corcino but you're saying that you had one of the position players ahead of one of the pitchers and ALL of the position players ahead of Box. I just makes me wonder how many people had 3 pitchers in their top 8.

One: Corcino at number 4.

mth123
11-05-2011, 01:22 PM
Boxberger, Corcino, Stephenson 7, 8, 9 respectively.

Its not just about Starter versus Reliever. Its about liklihood of being a positive. I think its a pretty good bet that in the next couple of years that Boxberger will come up and successfully fill a role that the team spent $12 Million on in 2011. That would seem to have a lot of value that I think gets short changed here.

Of course I view prospects differently than most on here do. I have Billy Hamilton at number 10 while Zach Cozart sits at number 2 on my list.

redsfandan
11-05-2011, 01:23 PM
I imagine those who have it that way place a lot of value on individual relievers.

Maybe some feel that it would be a knock against a pitcher to be ranked just outside the top 10 instead of inside the top 10.

redsfandan
11-05-2011, 01:28 PM
Boxberger, Corcino, Stephenson 7, 8, 9 respectively.

Its not just about Starter versus Reliever. Its about liklihood of being a positive. I think its a pretty good bet that in the next couple of years that Boxberger will come up and successfully fill a role that the team spent $12 Million on in 2011. That would seem to have a lot of value that I think gets short changed here.

Of course I view prospects differently than most on here do. I have Billy Hamilton at number 10 while Zach Cozart sits at number 2 on my list.

Sappelt and Frazier are both pretty safe bets to be a positive, imo. And the fact that the Reds overpaid for Cordero has something to do with Box POSSIBLY replacing a player that was paid $12 million.

mth123
11-05-2011, 01:30 PM
Sappelt and Frazier are both pretty safe bets to be a positive, imo. And the fact that the Reds overpaid for Cordero has something to do with Box POSSIBLY replacing a player that was paid $12 million.

I see Frazier as a back-up player. He can be a good one, but is mostly an interchangeable part once his price gets above $3 Million or so.

I have Sappelt at number 4.

redsfandan
11-05-2011, 01:31 PM
Regardless, I think the chances of Sappelt/Frazier helping the Reds are at least a little better than Box being the next Reds closer.

mth123
11-05-2011, 01:40 PM
Regardless, I think the chances of Sappelt/Frazier helping the Reds are at least a little better than Box being the next Reds closer.

Agree where Sappelt is concerned its why I have him at number 4. Frazier can contribute, but the value is a lot more limited. Its not just the Reds who paid 8 figures for a closer.

Even as a set-up man or a decent middle reliever Boxberger would cost more to replace than a utility player. Even the cost conscious teams like the A's paid middle relievers $4 and $5 Million per year which is more than what a utility player should get.

redsfandan
11-05-2011, 01:45 PM
Agree where Sappelt is concerned its why I have him at number 4. Frazier can contribute, but the value is a lot more limited. Its not just the Reds who paid 8 figures for a closer.

Even as a set-up man or a decent middle reliever Boxberger would cost more to replace than a utility player. Even the cost conscious teams like the A's paid middle relievers $4 and $5 Million per year which is more than what a utility player should get.

I think we can agree that Frazier can be a good backup. I'm just not convinced that more is out of the question.

Yes, the Reds aren't the only team that paid a premium price for the label of 'closer'. And, yes, some middle relievers get paid alot too. Are we 100% sure that Box will fill either role for the Reds though? I'm not.

mth123
11-05-2011, 01:58 PM
I think we can agree that Frazier can be a good backup. I'm just not convinced that more is out of the question.

Yes, the Reds aren't the only team that paid a premium price for the label of 'closer'. And, yes, some middle relievers get paid alot too. Are we 100% sure that Box will fill either role for the Reds though? I'm not.

I'm hopeful for Frazier, and he'd be on my 25 man roster to open 2012 barring other moves, but the fact is he's likely to hit like a MI with a bit of occassional power added while playing defense like a corner player. He's not more certain of being valuable than Boxberger IMO.

redsfandan
11-05-2011, 02:09 PM
I'm hopeful for Frazier, and he'd be on my 25 man roster to open 2012 barring other moves, but the fact is he's likely to hit like a MI with a bit of occassional power added while playing defense like a corner player. He's not more certain of being valuable than Boxberger IMO.

Frazier looks like he could be a good 3rd baseman for 1/2 the season (since Rolen will miss time) and possibly be the eventual replacement. To me IF that happens that would be worth more than the ceiling for Box. Granted, alot of that will depend on how much someone values a closer. But, we also already know that Frazier can be a backup. Right now, we're still hoping that Box can make the transition to the bigs to at least fill a supporting role.

Betterread
11-05-2011, 09:23 PM
Brad Boxberger does not currently have the required control to either be a setup man or closer for the Reds. I think once he gets some more experience at AAA he will be ready but at the moment, he does not have necessary control.

Kc61
11-05-2011, 10:59 PM
Brad Boxberger does not currently have the required control to either be a setup man or closer for the Reds. I think once he gets some more experience at AAA he will be ready but at the moment, he does not have necessary control.

Box hasn't been in pro ball very long and has progressed to AAA. One more year of AAA ball should get him ready.

REDblooded
11-06-2011, 03:20 PM
Box hasn't been in pro ball very long and has progressed to AAA. One more year of AAA ball should get him ready.

2 years to be exact... and one was terrible.

He showed great improvement last season, but he also developed a scary trend (as a potential GABP RP) of becoming more of a flyball pitcher than he was in the previous season... 1.57 GO/AO in 2010 to 1.14 in 2011...

And the difference in K/BB in 2011 @ Carolina vs Lou?
4.39 vs. 2.4

I don't get the love.

dougdirt
11-06-2011, 03:39 PM
2 years to be exact... and one was terrible.

He showed great improvement last season, but he also developed a scary trend (as a potential GABP RP) of becoming more of a flyball pitcher than he was in the previous season... 1.57 GO/AO in 2010 to 1.14 in 2011...

And the difference in K/BB in 2011 @ Carolina vs Lou?
4.39 vs. 2.4

I don't get the love.

Not quite. Half of a season was terrible. And I think we can wipe that one away given that it was his first real taste in the bullpen full time and he clearly showed he adjusted much better this year to being a bullpen arm.

There is a problem in using GO/AO comparisons.... it only accounts for balls turned into outs.

In 2010, Boxberger had a GB rate of 47%. In 2011, it was 52%. So he went from a guy who was getting a slightly above average rate of grounders to a guy who was well above average at getting grounders.

The walk rate is an issue that has been addressed some as a concern for most of us. It is probably the reason that most guys have him outside of their top 10 (I know it is one of the reasons he is outside of my top 10). But there is plenty to like about him. He has a 91-94 MPH rising fastball that touches 95-97, a high 80's slider and outstanding strikeout numbers. He also throws a change up.

REDblooded
11-06-2011, 04:55 PM
Not quite. Half of a season was terrible. And I think we can wipe that one away given that it was his first real taste in the bullpen full time and he clearly showed he adjusted much better this year to being a bullpen arm.

There is a problem in using GO/AO comparisons.... it only accounts for balls turned into outs.

In 2010, Boxberger had a GB rate of 47%. In 2011, it was 52%. So he went from a guy who was getting a slightly above average rate of grounders to a guy who was well above average at getting grounders.

The walk rate is an issue that has been addressed some as a concern for most of us. It is probably the reason that most guys have him outside of their top 10 (I know it is one of the reasons he is outside of my top 10). But there is plenty to like about him. He has a 91-94 MPH rising fastball that touches 95-97, a high 80's slider and outstanding strikeout numbers. He also throws a change up.

Good point on GO/AO... You're 100% correct.

And I'm not trying to completely dog the guy... It's just the fact that if I'm voting (and defending like others in these threads) a RP prospect over some of the offensive talent left on the board, he better have VERY few flaws if any... And Boxberger isn't that guy...

He's got a solid arsenal, but as a reliever I find it impossible to place him in front of Soto/Rodriguez/Sappelt/& possibly even Rosa...

dougdirt
11-06-2011, 05:09 PM
Good point on GO/AO... You're 100% correct.

And I'm not trying to completely dog the guy... It's just the fact that if I'm voting (and defending like others in these threads) a RP prospect over some of the offensive talent left on the board, he better have VERY few flaws if any... And Boxberger isn't that guy...

He's got a solid arsenal, but as a reliever I find it impossible to place him in front of Soto/Rodriguez/Sappelt/& possibly even Rosa...

I am almost with you there. I think he has a fantastic arsenal. And I am also with you on placing him in front of those guys. I ranked him directly ahead of Rosa.

REDblooded
11-21-2011, 07:46 PM
Bump

dougdirt
11-21-2011, 07:47 PM
Bump

Huh?

REDblooded
11-21-2011, 07:50 PM
Huh?

Now read vote 13