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dougdirt
11-29-2011, 02:01 AM
Except Boras has made it clear in his interviews that he basically has an agenda to basically "break the system".. give as much money to the players as possible. That's why he's had picks not sign and re-enter the draft the following year. It's all about his personal vendetta vs the owners. (Ok, maybe vendetta is a little overdramatic).

Boras has more than enough money to retire comfortably. He's not in it for the money.. He's in it to try to win battles.

Sure, but Boras isn't making anything close to his real money on draft picks. He is making it on those guys who stuck with him 7-10 years down the line when he gets them their first real contract that is more than 7 digits total rather than 7 digits per season.

And guys don't sign because they don't want to. Not because their agent tells them not to.

Dan
11-29-2011, 10:56 AM
MLBTR (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/rosenthal-on-votto-alonso-rangers-soriano.html?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed)


Cincinnati CEO Bob Castellini doesn’t want to trade Votto and appears to believe an extension is possible. However, some Reds owners believe the team should explore trades for the 2010 NL MVP. Votto is under contract through 2013.

Rival GMs consider Yonder Alonso a one-dimensional player, not someone who could be a centerpiece in a trade for a starting pitcher like James Shields or Gio Gonzalez.

lollipopcurve
11-29-2011, 11:23 AM
Rosenthal also says:


Votto is affordable to the Reds this season at $9.5 million, but his salary balloons to $17 million in 2013. The Reds probably should take the hint — Votto’s three-year deal covers only his arbitration years; he did not give up a single year of free agency.

Makes sense to me.

crazybob60
11-29-2011, 11:39 AM
It appears that now Broxton is off the market as he has signed with the Royals....

http://eye-on-baseball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22297882/33582947

redsfandan
11-29-2011, 01:06 PM
MLBTR (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/rosenthal-on-votto-alonso-rangers-soriano.html?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed)

It's not surprising that some gms see Alonso as a dh. He still hasn't shown (yet) that he can be more than that. And that hurts his trade value.

RedsManRick
11-29-2011, 01:12 PM
It's not surprising that some gms see Alonso as a dh. He still hasn't shown (yet) that he can be more than that. And that hurts his trade value.

Prince Fielder is a 1-dimensional player and yet teams are lining up to throw millions at him. If the one dimension a guy has is that he's an excellent hitter, teams will pay for that.

As it stands now, the problem is not that he's one-dimensional so much as it is that the one dimension is still essentially a question mark. A one-dimensional .800 OPS is much different than a a one-dimensional .900 OPS.

As for specific comments, whether it's from the Reds or another team's, they have no reason to provide accurate assessments to media types. It's about leverage. You play up your own assets to raise their value and you downplay other people's assets to make them cheaper. All comments should be seen through that prism. The off-season is one giant, 30-way negotiation.

Benihana
11-29-2011, 01:18 PM
If teams don't view Alonso as a centerpiece, then it's pretty simple- hold onto him and let him play LF (or 3B, as would be my preference).

Trade other players (ie Stubbs/Heisey) and/or prospects (ie Grandal) that teams may view as a centerpiece. No use in forcing an issue if a frontline arm isn't going to come back.

redsfandan
11-29-2011, 01:18 PM
Prince Fielder is a 1-dimensional player and yet teams are lining up to throw millions at him. If the one dimension a guy has is that he's an excellent hitter, teams will pay for that.

As it stands now, the problem is not that he's one-dimensional so much as it is that the one dimension is still essentially a question mark. A one-dimensional .800 OPS is much different than a a one-dimensional .900 OPS.

As for specific comments, whether it's from the Reds or another team's, they have no reason to provide accurate assessments to media types. It's about leverage. You play up your own assets to raise their value and you downplay other people's assets to make them cheaper. All comments should be seen through that prism. The off-season is one giant, 30-way negotiation.

There's a HUGE difference between Fielder and Alonso. Fielder isn't a question mark. People know what kind of offense he'll give you. I think there's some doubt with Alonso. Add in the defensive questions and how much are teams going to be really interested in him. His trade value probably isn't close to what we'd like it to be.

dunner13
11-29-2011, 01:20 PM
I think the question people have with alonso is whether hes a .300 15 hr guy or .300 30 hr guy. I dont think anyone really doubts that he can hit and will easily hit .300 in the big leagues the question is what kind of power does he have. He really hasnt been given much of a chance to show off his power because of the hammate bone injury he had, it some ways it might be better for the reds to put him in LF and let him show what he can do.

dfs
11-29-2011, 01:38 PM
His trade value probably isn't close to what we'd like it to be.

This is probably true for a substantial number of the reds younger players/prospects.

I(heart)Freel
11-29-2011, 01:44 PM
If Alonso isn't netting the frontline starter, then I would be a-ok as a Reds fan with him platooning in left in 2012 with a Heisey or Sappelt as the other half of the platoon and late inning defensive replacement.

With Cozart probably providing more offense than did Janish, with Bruce being another year wiser, with ANY production out of Rolen and/or continued progress from Francisco at third, I think the offense can handle that arrangement.

And it would be fun to see what Alonso can do in a full year, especially in a friendly platoon situation.

The key to me remains the rotation. I hope the FO is out there making a quality upgrade. And if Alonso doesn't net that upgrade, so be it. Package others, as someone said. I think the offense will be solid, and you get the added benefit of keeping Alonso in the organization as we creep closer to Votto judgment day.

redsfandan
11-29-2011, 01:45 PM
This is probably true for a substantial number of the reds younger players/prospects.

True but I'd be interested to see how much other teams value Billy Hamilton. I'd MUCH rather see Hamilton dealt anyway. He's not going to help the Reds in 2012/2013.

757690
11-29-2011, 01:48 PM
And guys don't sign because they don't want to. Not because their agent tells them not to.

I have to think that J.D. Drew would have signed with the Phillies if Boros told him to. These are kids, they are very easy to influence. I have to believe that they follow whatever advice their agents give them.

Kc61
11-29-2011, 01:54 PM
I don't believe that Alonso lacks trade value. I think any GM will see that he is a fundamentally sound hitter. Not sure he hits .300, as a previos post says, but he clearly has all around hitting ability. That's valuable.

To get a front line pitcher, the Reds would likely have to trade Alonso plus another valuable guy. Some of the names tossed around, like Volquez, won't do it.

Here are some guys I can see paired with Alonso to bring back a very good veteran pitcher - Grandal; Homer Bailey; Chapman; possibly Stubbs (but his 2011 hurts his value); Billy Hamilton; Corcino.

I doubt the Reds would trade Leake for pitching because that just hurts the pitching depth. Arroyo's contract and 2011 makes him hard to trade.

If a team likes Juan Francisco, I could see him possibly going with Alonso. Probably not, too many question marks, but possible. I doubt Boxberger would do the trick, relievers don't have great trade value.

Another choice is to trade Alonso for a pitcher who is not quite a front line guy. A younger pitcher with potential or a veteran who has had injuries or a bad year. Reds might go that way too.

RedsManRick
11-29-2011, 01:58 PM
There's a HUGE difference between Fielder and Alonso. Fielder isn't a question mark. People know what kind of offense he'll give you. I think there's some doubt with Alonso. Add in the defensive questions and how much are teams going to be really interested in him. His trade value probably isn't close to what we'd like it to be.

Ummm... yeah. That was my point. If it were a question of dimensionality, they wouldn't be interested in Fielder. But it's not a function of being one-dimensional. It's the level of confidence teams have in that dimension being impactful.

The one-dimensional thing only comes in to play because having defense/speed to fall back on would give Alonso a higher floor if his bat proves not to be elite.

redsfandan
11-29-2011, 01:58 PM
I don't believe that Alonso lacks trade value. I think any GM will see that he is a fundamentally sound hitter. Not sure he hits .300, as a previos post says, but he clearly has all around hitting ability. That's valuable.

To get a front line pitcher, the Reds will likely have to trade Alonso plus another valuable guy. Some of the names tossed around, like Volquez, won't do it.

Here are some guys I can see paired with Alonso to bring back a very good veteran pitcher - ...

Clearly? I think he does but I also think there's people out there that really do think he'll hit 15-20 homers.

Kc61
11-29-2011, 02:00 PM
Clearly? I think he does but I also think there's people out there that really do think he'll hit 15-20 homers.

When I say all around hitting ability, I don't mean huge power necessarily. A .290 hitter with 20 homers who is young, cheap, and controllable is valuable to many teams.

Maybe not the big markets looking for a powerhouse at first base, but to many teams.

And I think most teams would agree that over time Alonso, if he gets stronger and takes care of himself, could hit more than 20.

lollipopcurve
11-29-2011, 02:01 PM
If Votto gets Shields or Price, they should pull the trigger.

Kc61
11-29-2011, 02:02 PM
If Votto gets Shields or Price, they should pull the trigger.

For Price, I could see it.

For Shields? I wouldn't trade Votto for Shields.

redsfandan
11-29-2011, 02:03 PM
Ummm... yeah. That was my point. If it were a question of dimensionality, they wouldn't be interested in Fielder. But it's not a function of being one-dimensional. It's the level of confidence teams have in that dimension being impactful.

The one-dimensional thing only comes in to play because having defense/speed to fall back on would give Alonso a higher floor if his bat proves not to be elite.

Honestly, I didn't understand why you threw Fielder out as a comp to Alonso in the first place. You know that Fielder has the track record in the majors that Alonso doesn't. And when he has that kind of track record it's easier to accept his defense. Teams just won't do that with Alonso. That's why you even mentioning Fielder is odd to me.

RedsManRick
11-29-2011, 02:14 PM
Honestly, I didn't understand why you threw Fielder out as a comp to Alonso in the first place. You know that Fielder has the track record in the majors that Alonso doesn't. And when he has that kind of track record it's easier to accept his defense. Teams just won't do that with Alonso. That's why you even mentioning Fielder is odd to me.

I chose Fielder specifically because of the reason you mentioned as it highlights my point that dimensionality isn't the issue. The "one-dimension" comment suggests that a player who is one-dimensional cannot be seen as a valuable trade chit. But the Fielder example, as you point out, shows that the primary issue is not Alonso's defensive limitations but rather that his bat isn't proven.

If he could play a solid LF and run well, he still wouldn't be seen as a sufficient cornerstone for an ace. But if had a few years of a .900 OPS under his belt already and still had his defensive limitations, he would be.

lollipopcurve
11-29-2011, 02:15 PM
or Shields? I wouldn't trade Votto for Shields.

Difference of opinion.

To me, Shields moving from the AL East to the NL Central is close to a #1. 3 years of control at an affordable price. Got to take that.

redsfandan
11-29-2011, 02:18 PM
I chose Fielder specifically because of the reason you mentioned. It highlights my point. The "one-dimension" comment suggests that a player who is one-dimensional is necessarily not valuable. But the Fielder example, as you point out, shows that the primary issue is not Alonso's defensive limitations but rather that his bat isn't proven.

If he could play a solid LF and run well, he still wouldn't be seen as a sufficient cornerstone for an ace. But if had a year or two of a .900 OPS under his belt already and still had his defensive limitations, he would be.

No it doesn't. My point was that a "one dimension" prospect with questions about that one dimension can have limited value to clubs.

Trying to sidetrack the conversation by including Fielder as a comp is just silly.

Patrick Bateman
11-29-2011, 02:23 PM
No it doesn't. My point was that a "one dimension" prospect with questions about that one dimension can have limited value to clubs.

Trying to sidetrack the conversation by including Fielder as a comp is just silly.

No, you are missing the point.

Fielder is not a comp. Rick knows that, you know it, I know it.

It's the context of what Rick is saying. The original quote had Alonso as not being a centerpeice because he is "one dimensional" when the real reason is that teams are not so in love with that one dimension to give up a ransom.

If Alonso could hit like Fielder, few would care about only having one dimension. That's the point. It's more about being a prospect rather than established star, than it is about player type.

redsfandan
11-29-2011, 02:28 PM
No, you are missing the point.

Fielder is not a comp. Rick knows that, you know it, I know it.

It's the context of what Rick is saying. The original quote had Alonso as not being a centerpeice because he is "one dimensional" when the real reason is that teams are not so in love with that one dimension to give up a ransom.

If Alonso could hit like Fielder, few would care about only having one dimension. That's the point. It's more about being a prospect rather than established star, than it is about player type.

No, You are missing the point. You don't include Fielder in an Alonso discussion unless you want to compare the two cuz that will be the perceived intent. There's just a HUGE difference between the two.

AmarilloRed
11-29-2011, 02:37 PM
It sounds like the concern with Alonso is that teams fear he has limited power. If that's true, pull him off the trade block. Let's give him the opportunity to get significant playing time in LF next year-show he has the power that teams fear he doesn't. I'm really not much in favor of trading him unless he brings a frontline starter back, and that doesn't sound like it's going to happen this year.

Roy Tucker
11-29-2011, 03:38 PM
No, You are missing the point. You don't include Fielder in an Alonso discussion unless you want to compare the two cuz that will be the perceived intent. There's just a HUGE difference between the two.

Not speaking for RMR, but the way I took it was more as an example...

i.e. Fielder is an example of a one-dimensional player (hits a ton but that's it) with great value whereas Alonso is an example of a possible one-dimensional player (or maybe not) with unknown value. And yes, there is a big difference between the 2.

redsfandan
11-29-2011, 03:49 PM
Not speaking for RMR, but the way I took it was more as an example...

i.e. Fielder is an example of a one-dimensional player (hits a ton but that's it) with great value whereas Alonso is an example of a possible one-dimensional player (or maybe not) with unknown value. And yes, there is a big difference between the 2.

I think I just was expecting a more similar player to be used (another young player with less than a full season in the majors).

RedsManRick
11-29-2011, 03:49 PM
No, You are missing the point. You don't include Fielder in an Alonso discussion unless you want to compare the two cuz that will be the perceived intent. There's just a HUGE difference between the two.

I did want to compare the two. They are similar players in composition of their skills (bat only). However, one of them has a long track record of proven excellence while the other has, essentially, no track record of anything in the majors.

You're right, there's a HUGE difference between them. And yet, both are one-dimensional. Therefore, the issue with Alonso's value is not that he has just one skill. It's that he does not have a proven track record of being an excellent player, irrespective of the composition of his skill set.

If he could play good defense, maybe that would help on the margins. But the defensive liability is not the difference between being worth James Shields and not.

RANDY IN INDY
11-29-2011, 03:50 PM
You know, I have always been amazed at how good Fielder is, defensively, at his size.

redsfandan
11-29-2011, 03:54 PM
I did want to compare the two. They are similar players in composition of their skills (bat only). However, one of them has a long track record of proven excellence while the other has, essentially, no track record of anything in the majors.

You're right, there's a HUGE difference between them. And yet, both are one-dimensional. Therefore, the issue with Alonso's value is not that he has just one skill. It's that he does not have a proven track record of being an excellent player, irrespective of the composition of his skill set.

If he could play good defense, maybe that would help on the margins. But the defensive liability is not the difference between being worth James Shields and not.

Fair enough, I don't think this needs to addressed much more than it has.

Honestly, I'd prefer that the Reds used Hamilton, Grandal, and (yes) Chapman as trade bait. The only one of the 3 that will help the Reds in 2012 is Chapman and it's debatable whether he'll provide much production as a starter. If I could deal Chapman + a player for a young, good starting pitcher I'd give it strong consideration (depending on the rest of the deal).

Vottomatic
11-29-2011, 04:32 PM
It's not surprising that some gms see Alonso as a dh. He still hasn't shown (yet) that he can be more than that. And that hurts his trade value.

Alonso = Edgar Martinez

_Sir_Charles_
11-29-2011, 05:21 PM
It's not surprising that some gms see Alonso as a dh. He still hasn't shown (yet) that he can be more than that. And that hurts his trade value.

I firmly disagree with the argument that Yonder's a 1 dimensional player. He's not. Period. He's average to above average defensively at FIRST BASE. He's well below average at other positions though. For other teams, he can play first base and do it well. He's only 1 dimensional for teams like us who have a Votto at first already.

wolfboy
11-29-2011, 05:41 PM
Alonso = Edgar Martinez

Not sure if you meant this as a slight against Alonso, but if he can give us an Edgar Martinez like career, I'd be absolutely thrilled.

TRF
11-29-2011, 05:58 PM
No, You are missing the point. You don't include Fielder in an Alonso discussion unless you want to compare the two cuz that will be the perceived intent. There's just a HUGE difference between the two.

That difference is service time and that Fielder has apparently eaten his gardener.

dougdirt
11-29-2011, 06:00 PM
Clearly? I think he does but I also think there's people out there that really do think he'll hit 15-20 homers.

The only people who think Alonso is just a 15-20 HR guy are people who aren't being paid by MLB teams.

Superdude
11-29-2011, 06:27 PM
Not sure if you meant this as a slight against Alonso, but if he can give us an Edgar Martinez like career, I'd be absolutely thrilled.

If anyone thinks they can slight Alonso by comparing him to a career .933OPS hitter, then we've got some real expectation issues.

Vottomatic
11-29-2011, 06:36 PM
Not sure if you meant this as a slight against Alonso, but if he can give us an Edgar Martinez like career, I'd be absolutely thrilled.

Edgar was one of my favorite hitters and one of the more underappreciated hitters of all time, IMHO.

Vottomatic
11-29-2011, 06:39 PM
We can argue all day long about how good Alonso is gonna be......or how much he is going to OPS, etc. But until the Reds get some good pitching, it isn't gonna matter what anybody does offensively, unless they just all hit 30 HR's and bat .300, then it might happen in fantasyland.

Reds need pitching. Alonso is the most viable trade piece to get it (hopefully).

camisadelgolf
11-29-2011, 06:45 PM
Alonso would give you--at worst--average defense at first base imho. Sure, he's no Gold Glover, and he may be incapable of playing adequate defense anywhere else, but he's no slouch at first.

mattfeet
11-29-2011, 08:33 PM
Alonso would give you--at worst--average defense at first base imho. Sure, he's no Gold Glover, and he may be incapable of playing adequate defense anywhere else, but he's no slouch at first.

No one thought Joey Votto would be a gold-glove caliber First Baseman either...

-Matt

camisadelgolf
11-29-2011, 08:40 PM
No one thought Joey Votto would be a gold-glove caliber First Baseman either...

-Matt
Good point. I mean to say that Alonso will never be the best defensive first baseman in his respective league. Votto may have won the award (so did Rafael Palmeiro despite playing just 28 games there in 1999), but he wasn't the best defensive first baseman in the NL imho.

Slyder
11-29-2011, 08:47 PM
According to Jon Heyman of SI.com, free agent left-hander C.J. Wilson asked the Angels for a $100 million contract. It's not clear if the Angels balked at Wilson's asking price, but most expect the bidding will fall somewhere in the $100 million range. The 30-year-old southpaw visited the Marlins' new ballpark on Monday and could sign somewhere during the Winter Meetings next week in Dallas.

mattfeet
11-29-2011, 08:49 PM
Consider me old-school, naive, or downright stupid, but I have a VERY hard time understanding the logic in locking yourself into a pitcher for that total investment, being both time and dollars.

-Matt

Vottomatic
11-29-2011, 09:55 PM
If I were the Reds, I'd offer him $100M over 20 years. ;)

JaxRed
11-29-2011, 10:09 PM
Consider me old-school, naive, or downright stupid, but I have a VERY hard time understanding the logic in locking yourself into a pitcher for that total investment, being both time and dollars.

-Matt

Actually it's the opposite. A contract like this is almost a guarantee of failure.

Mario-Rijo
11-29-2011, 10:11 PM
I firmly disagree with the argument that Yonder's a 1 dimensional player. He's not. Period. He's average to above average defensively at FIRST BASE. He's well below average at other positions though. For other teams, he can play first base and do it well. He's only 1 dimensional for teams like us who have a Votto at first already.

He's below average defensively at 1st IMO.

Mario-Rijo
11-29-2011, 10:14 PM
No one thought Joey Votto would be a gold-glove caliber First Baseman either...

-Matt

He had the athleticism to improve a great deal, Alonso does not. And I will be the one who continues to say it I don't believe Alonso is either a .300 hitter or a guy we can expect a high slugging out of, I still think this past season was a result of matching him to guys he can hit. Being the everyday starter will expose him and his lack of bat speed. Just like it has with Drew Stubbs.

Trading him now is the only wise option the Reds will ever get to make good on their initial investment.

REDREAD
11-29-2011, 10:20 PM
Sure, but Boras isn't making anything close to his real money on draft picks. He is making it on those guys who stuck with him 7-10 years down the line when he gets them their first real contract that is more than 7 digits total rather than 7 digits per season.

And guys don't sign because they don't want to. Not because their agent tells them not to.

Sure, of course Boras makes more money on ML clients than draftees.. At least in the short term. Just saying that he has an agenda beyond money. That was the point.

Of course, ultimately, it's the player's decision on whether to sign or not, but obviously the agent's advise is valued as input.

REDREAD
11-29-2011, 10:26 PM
If he could play a solid LF and run well, he still wouldn't be seen as a sufficient cornerstone for an ace. But if had a few years of a .900 OPS under his belt already and still had his defensive limitations, he would be.

IMO, if Alonso could play a solid LF and run well, he'd probably be twice as valuable.
Maybe still not enough to trade for an ace, but significantly more valuable.

dougdirt
11-29-2011, 10:29 PM
He had the athleticism to improve a great deal, Alonso does not. And I will be the one who continues to say it I don't believe Alonso is either a .300 hitter or a guy we can expect a high slugging out of, I still think this past season was a result of matching him to guys he can hit. Being the everyday starter will expose him and his lack of bat speed. Just like it has with Drew Stubbs.

Trading him now is the only wise option the Reds will ever get to make good on their initial investment.

Drew Stubbs and Yonder Alonso don't lack bat speed. At all.

Vottomatic
11-30-2011, 06:54 AM
He had the athleticism to improve a great deal, Alonso does not. And I will be the one who continues to say it I don't believe Alonso is either a .300 hitter or a guy we can expect a high slugging out of, I still think this past season was a result of matching him to guys he can hit. Being the everyday starter will expose him and his lack of bat speed. Just like it has with Drew Stubbs.

Trading him now is the only wise option the Reds will ever get to make good on their initial investment.

Good post Stubbs definitely lacks bat speed.

Redhook
11-30-2011, 07:01 AM
He had the athleticism to improve a great deal, Alonso does not.

I agree. Alonso scares me when he gets close to touching the ball with his glove.


And I will be the one who continues to say it I don't believe Alonso is either a .300 hitter or a guy we can expect a high slugging out of, I still think this past season was a result of matching him to guys he can hit. Being the everyday starter will expose him and his lack of bat speed.

If there's one thing Alonso can do it's hitting the ball. I don't think he'll be exposed at all. I think he'll get a lot better. He knows what he's doing in the batter's box and doesn't lack bat speed. I wouldn't be surprised if he hit .300 and hit 30 homers in the season, even next year.


Just like it has with Drew Stubbs.

I don't see how you can compare Stubbs and Alonso. They couldn't be more opposite in terms of hitting. Alonso hasn't shown me anything to make me think he'll struggle to hit major league hitting. Stubbs looked like a mess with some speed and power from day one.


Trading him now is the only wise option the Reds will ever get to make good on their initial investment.

I agree that the Reds should trade him for pitching, but if they don't, I believe they'll still get good value from him.

Redhook
11-30-2011, 07:14 AM
Good post Stubbs definitely lacks bat speed.

Like Doug stated earlier, Stubbs does not lack bat speed. Just because he can't hit the ball doesn't mean he doesn't have bat speed. That's like saying a pitcher, i.e. Volquez, isn't successful because he doesn't throw it fast enough when it has everything to do with wildness.

Dan
11-30-2011, 07:34 AM
If I were the Reds, I'd offer him $100M over 20 years. ;)

There was a time Kevin Brown was in a similar position to Wilson. He made it known he wanted a 7 year deal. Bowden offered 7 years at $1mil per year. :laugh:

redsfandan
11-30-2011, 07:54 AM
That difference is service time and that Fielder has apparently eaten his gardener.
And the likelihood that they'll be a top hitter. But, I'll make sure to send my condolences to the family of the gardener.

corkedbat
11-30-2011, 08:37 AM
And the likelihood that they'll be a top hitter. But, I'll make sure to send my condolences to the family of the gardener.

Oooooo! Mexican always gives me heartburn. :evil:

Vottomatic
11-30-2011, 08:57 AM
Like Doug stated earlier, Stubbs does not lack bat speed. Just because he can't hit the ball doesn't mean he doesn't have bat speed. That's like saying a pitcher, i.e. Volquez, isn't successful because he doesn't throw it fast enough when it has everything to do with wildness.

That's your opinion. And it's worth the same as mine.

I've never seen Stubbs catch up to anything over about 92 mph. And usually he's guessing when he hits that.

Nasty_Boy
11-30-2011, 09:15 AM
In no world does Drew Stubb lack bat speed... He may lack pitch recognition but the dude doesn't lack bat speed.

chicoruiz
11-30-2011, 09:35 AM
Drew has a fast enough swing, it's just too long. He has to commit to where he thinks the ball is going to be too early.

dougdirt
11-30-2011, 09:59 AM
I've never seen Stubbs catch up to anything over about 92 mph. And usually he's guessing when he hits that.

If you assume that the second part of your statement is right, wouldn't that have a lot more to do with the first statement than a lack of bat speed?

As for him not being able to catch up with anything over 92, I went back to 2010 (I haven't completed my Pitch F/X database for 2011 yet, so 2010 is what I have to work with here) and looked at every pitch that Stubbs swung at. Then I limited it to only pitcher over 92.0 MPH. He swung at 215 pitches at 92.1 MPH or faster. Here is how it broke down as a result:

Single - 19
Double - 1
Triple - 1
HR - 1
Swing and Miss - 64
Foul - 83
Ground Out - 18
Fly Out - 10
Line Out - 1
Pop Out - 9
Force Out - 5
Sac Fly - 3

Stubbs put the bat on the ball a lot more than he didn't on pitches over 92 MPH.

Nasty_Boy
11-30-2011, 10:18 AM
Drew has a fast enough swing, it's just too long. He has to commit to where he thinks the ball is going to be too early.

See, after going back and watching video I think Drew has short swing... Seeing HRs like the walk off against the Braves requires a short quick swing to hit that pitch like that... I still think that he is some what of a guess hitter that because he doesn't recognize off speed pitches very well. I like every thing about his swing, I'm just not in love with his approach and/or adjustments.

RedsManRick
11-30-2011, 10:35 AM
Giants are supposedly looking to deal one of Affeldt and Ramon Ramirez. Both guys have just a year left. Would something like Phipps and Carlos Fisher be too much for Ramirez? Too little?

IslandRed
11-30-2011, 11:09 AM
Giants are supposedly looking to deal one of Affeldt and Ramon Ramirez. Both guys have just a year left. Would something like Phipps and Carlos Fisher be too much for Ramirez? Too little?

In terms of trade cost, I'd do it in a heartbeat; to me, Fisher is filler and Phipps is a mirage. I don't expect either to help the Reds significantly in the future.

The real question is whether either reliever is worth the money. Ramirez is arbitration eligible, made $1.65 million last year, and had a good season. Figure maybe three or four mil? Affeldt's more consistent, but more expensive at $5 million for 2012. I'd be borderline on wanting to sign either at those prices even in a free-agent scenario, and then when you add in the trading chips, modest though they be... I don't know. Tough call.

Scrap Irony
11-30-2011, 11:15 AM
It's not bat speed-- it's pitch recognition (as others have already stated).

According to his advanced numbers, Stubbs is an above average hitter of fastballs at 9.9. Everything else is in the negative numbers. As a comparison, Jay Bruce has negative numbers against three off-speed pitches. Joey Votto has only one negative area (and it's relatively neutral).

Because you need a fast bat to hit fastballs, Stubbs probably either cheats and gets extremely lucky (as he has his entire three-year career so far), or his bat speed is plenty fast enough.

My eyes tell me that he cannot hit the low and away slider, but continues to chase it. I suspect, therefore, he's always looking to protect that area of weakness first. This causes defensive swings and the appearance of a slow bat, as he's thinking off-speed first, last, and always.

When he's right, he crushes fastballs. He just wasn't right much last year.

(Nor do I hold out much hope that he'll be right much this year. Pitchers have "figured" him out, and I've seen nothing to suggest he's been able to compensate to that.)


From Red Man Rick:
Giants are supposedly looking to deal one of Affeldt and Ramon Ramirez. Both guys have just a year left. Would something like Phipps and Carlos Fisher be too much for Ramirez? Too little?

I'd try to pry one of their younger guys and make him our closer. Sergio Romo would be fantastic, IMO, but I'd settle for Ramirez and a decent prospect for Stubbs.

Nasty_Boy
11-30-2011, 12:00 PM
It's not bat speed-- it's pitch recognition (as others have already stated).

According to his advanced numbers, Stubbs is an above average hitter of fastballs at 9.9. Everything else is in the negative numbers. As a comparison, Jay Bruce has negative numbers against three off-speed pitches. Joey Votto has only one negative area (and it's relatively neutral).

Because you need a fast bat to hit fastballs, Stubbs probably either cheats and gets extremely lucky (as he has his entire three-year career so far), or his bat speed is plenty fast enough.

My eyes tell me that he cannot hit the low and away slider, but continues to chase it. I suspect, therefore, he's always looking to protect that area of weakness first. This causes defensive swings and the appearance of a slow bat, as he's thinking off-speed first, last, and always.

When he's right, he crushes fastballs. He just wasn't right much last year.

(Nor do I hold out much hope that he'll be right much this year. Pitchers have "figured" him out, and I've seen nothing to suggest he's been able to compensate to that.)



I'd try to pry one of their younger guys and make him our closer. Sergio Romo would be fantastic, IMO, but I'd settle for Ramirez and a decent prospect for Stubbs.

:beerme:

Couldn't agree more!

_Sir_Charles_
11-30-2011, 12:04 PM
He's below average defensively at 1st IMO.

Not from everything I've seen, heard & read. IMO he's average at WORST. Some of the minor league posters have obviously seen him more than I have though.

So feel free to chime in with more info guys.

Vottomatic
11-30-2011, 12:57 PM
If you assume that the second part of your statement is right, wouldn't that have a lot more to do with the first statement than a lack of bat speed?

As for him not being able to catch up with anything over 92, I went back to 2010 (I haven't completed my Pitch F/X database for 2011 yet, so 2010 is what I have to work with here) and looked at every pitch that Stubbs swung at. Then I limited it to only pitcher over 92.0 MPH. He swung at 215 pitches at 92.1 MPH or faster. Here is how it broke down as a result:

Single - 19
Double - 1
Triple - 1
HR - 1
Swing and Miss - 64
Foul - 83
Ground Out - 18
Fly Out - 10
Line Out - 1
Pop Out - 9
Force Out - 5
Sac Fly - 3

Stubbs put the bat on the ball a lot more than he didn't on pitches over 92 MPH.

There's no absolutism to those stats. There is probably a huge margin of error in those numbers. How'd he do on pitches 93.1 mph or faster? Huh? Huh? Huh? :laugh:

Obviously, Stubbs is a good guesser on those hits. Because his bat more than often is swinging after the pitch went by. Trade him while everyone still thinks he has bat speed.

Anyway. The truth is Stubbs sucks at hitting fastballs. But many will continue to love Mr. Strikeout Drew Stubbs.

jojo
11-30-2011, 01:25 PM
There's no absolutism to those stats. There is probably a huge margin of error in those numbers. How'd he do on pitches 93.1 mph or faster? Huh? Huh? Huh? :laugh:

Obviously, Stubbs is a good guesser on those hits. Because his bat more than often is swinging after the pitch went by. Trade him while everyone still thinks he has bat speed.

Anyway. The truth is Stubbs sucks at hitting fastballs. But many will continue to love Mr. Strikeout Drew Stubbs.

What we really need to best interpret Doug's numbers is some kind of a baseline.

Mario-Rijo
11-30-2011, 03:28 PM
Drew Stubbs and Yonder Alonso don't lack bat speed. At all.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81766

Long swing, lack of bat speed what is the difference it takes his bat too long to get thru the swing zone. Drew does also have pitch recognition issues as well and that is an extremely poor combination to have at the major league level, most guys don't make it. If it's a fixable issue why hasn't it been fixed yet?

Mario-Rijo
11-30-2011, 03:31 PM
It's not bat speed-- it's pitch recognition (as others have already stated).

According to his advanced numbers, Stubbs is an above average hitter of fastballs at 9.9. Everything else is in the negative numbers. As a comparison, Jay Bruce has negative numbers against three off-speed pitches. Joey Votto has only one negative area (and it's relatively neutral).

Because you need a fast bat to hit fastballs, Stubbs probably either cheats and gets extremely lucky (as he has his entire three-year career so far), or his bat speed is plenty fast enough.

My eyes tell me that he cannot hit the low and away slider, but continues to chase it. I suspect, therefore, he's always looking to protect that area of weakness first. This causes defensive swings and the appearance of a slow bat, as he's thinking off-speed first, last, and always.

When he's right, he crushes fastballs. He just wasn't right much last year.

(Nor do I hold out much hope that he'll be right much this year. Pitchers have "figured" him out, and I've seen nothing to suggest he's been able to compensate to that.)



I'd try to pry one of their younger guys and make him our closer. Sergio Romo would be fantastic, IMO, but I'd settle for Ramirez and a decent prospect for Stubbs.

It's not simply pitch recognition. His bat takes too long to get thru the hitting zone, always has and likely always will.

REDREAD
11-30-2011, 04:34 PM
Giants are supposedly looking to deal one of Affeldt and Ramon Ramirez. Both guys have just a year left. Would something like Phipps and Carlos Fisher be too much for Ramirez? Too little?

Oh yes, I would do that in a heartbeat.
I'd be willing to give up a little more in addition.
See.. this is when Maloney is missed.. the favorite piece of trade bait. :laugh:

I'd give one of Frasier, Sapplet, or Heisey. Or someone else of that caliber.
Maybe some will think that's overpaying, but it likely fits the budget well and fills a need without trading Alonso.
We need to add solid arm in the pen with Coco departing and Chapman maybe starting.

MikeS21
11-30-2011, 04:48 PM
Or ... Stubbs MAY have just experienced what MANY players experience: a Sophomore slump. Bat him 7th in the lineup and play him every day. He is not hurting the team in the OF. If you trade Stubbs, you now have a gaping hole in CF.

Heisey and Sappelt are the OF's I'd shop hard.

dougdirt
11-30-2011, 05:36 PM
There's no absolutism to those stats. There is probably a huge margin of error in those numbers. How'd he do on pitches 93.1 mph or faster? Huh? Huh? Huh? :laugh:

Obviously, Stubbs is a good guesser on those hits. Because his bat more than often is swinging after the pitch went by. Trade him while everyone still thinks he has bat speed.

Anyway. The truth is Stubbs sucks at hitting fastballs. But many will continue to love Mr. Strikeout Drew Stubbs.

There is plenty of absolutism in there based on what you said. You said you never see him hit anything over 92. I showed that he clearly does do that.

Someone else pointed out that of all the pitches Stubbs faced in 2011, the only pitch he had success against was the fastball.

No one loves what Stubbs does at the plate. Everyone wants him to be better at the plate than he is. The problem arises two fold, those who think he is absolutely worthless vs those who think he is acceptable and then the varying reasons as to why he isn't as good at hitting the baseball as "he should be".

Slyder
11-30-2011, 05:40 PM
Giants are supposedly looking to deal one of Affeldt and Ramon Ramirez. Both guys have just a year left. Would something like Phipps and Carlos Fisher be too much for Ramirez? Too little?

Who did we draft when the Giants gave us a pick for Affeldt :laugh:

camisadelgolf
11-30-2011, 05:41 PM
Who did we draft when the Giants gave us a pick for Affeldt :laugh:
For those not in the know, it was the Reds' supposed closer of the future, iIrc.

dougdirt
11-30-2011, 05:48 PM
There's no absolutism to those stats. There is probably a huge margin of error in those numbers. How'd he do on pitches 93.1 mph or faster? Huh? Huh? Huh? :laugh:


Stubbs swung at pitches 93.1 MPH or faster 134 times this season. He missed it 42 times. Meaning he made contact on it 92 times, though it only went forward and in play 37 of those times, while he fouled it off 55 times. Still, it doesn't suggest that he can't catch up to the pitch.

Kc61
11-30-2011, 06:12 PM
Or ... Stubbs MAY have just experienced what MANY players experience: a Sophomore slump. Bat him 7th in the lineup and play him every day. He is not hurting the team in the OF. If you trade Stubbs, you now have a gaping hole in CF.

Heisey and Sappelt are the OF's I'd shop hard.

Rather than a sophomore slump, I'd say Stubbs may have lost some confidence.

In 2010, when he hit the ball, he did so with authority. Not so much last year. I think he became tentative.

All the strikeouts and the bad ink about strikeouts may have gotten to Drew. A hitter can't be tentative up there. He has to be able to swing freely, without worrying about missing pitches.

I see a world of talent in Stubbs. Now is the worst possible time to trade him, his value has to be very low. I would keep him, hit him lower in the lineup.

In the minor leagues, Stubbs struggled some and then at some point really stepped forward. The same can happen in the bigs. I'd keep Stubbs.

Vottomatic
11-30-2011, 06:49 PM
Stubbs swung at pitches 93.1 MPH or faster 134 times this season. He missed it 42 times. Meaning he made contact on it 92 times, though it only went forward and in play 37 of those times, while he fouled it off 55 times. Still, it doesn't suggest that he can't catch up to the pitch.

I prefer the stat that says he struck out approximately 200 times.

That's what I call not catching up to the pitch. :beerme:

dougdirt
11-30-2011, 07:09 PM
I prefer the stat that says he struck out approximately 200 times.

That's what I call not catching up to the pitch. :beerme:

Of course, you aren't paying attention if that is what you think. Stubbs hit fastballs. Stubbs didn't hit the offspeed stuff. He was striking out, not for a lack of ability to hit the fastball, but because he struggles to identify pitches that aren't the fastball.

You said Stubbs strikes out because he has a slow bat/lack of bat speed. That was very likely incorrect given that he doesn't have a problem hitting the fastball, even when its pretty fast. You are ignoring the context of what you said to get to the final point you want to make, which is that Drew Stubbs swings and misses a lot. But it ignores what leads to him swinging and missing a lot and what you suggested it was, is very likely incorrect.

And why are you "cheers'ing" your comment? As someone on a Reds fan message board with a Reds player related name, I imagine you are a Reds fan and want them to succeed. Stubbs striking out 200 times isn't the way to go about that.

Scrap Irony
11-30-2011, 07:24 PM
It's not simply pitch recognition. His bat takes too long to get thru the hitting zone, always has and likely always will.

That's not what the numbers suggest.

corkedbat
11-30-2011, 11:16 PM
This was posted in the minor league forum by redsmetz in a thread starteed by icehole. I thought I'd bring it over here too, because if the Reds were to sign this kid it would impact the way they approach the entire offseason.


http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111114&content_id=25966816&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb


I know it would be a gamble, but I'd go up to six-years $60 on Cespedes as long as his actual age is 32 or under. He's not a sure thing, but at least you're not spending anything in the way of talent. I have a great deal of respect for the Cuban program and its players. I would expect Cespedes to be ready with in a year (if he's not already major league ready).

Stick him in LF and bat him cleanup between votto and Bruce. Then you have all of your trading chips to upgrade the pitching staff unless there's a 3B (Youkilis) or a young SS you like at the right price.

I doubt the big boys just let us walk away with him like we did Chapman, but I notice Buckley is quoted in the article. I seem to recall that the Reds had some kind of "in" or advantage with Chapman. Could something similar exist with this kid? I won't be disappointed if the Reds don't sign Cespedes, because I feel the deck is seriously stacked against them. If I were to find out they made a strong serious run at him though, I'd feel a lot better about the offseason even if they fail.

dougdirt
12-01-2011, 12:28 AM
You admit that he isn't a sure thing, but you would be willing to give him 6 years and $60M?

corkedbat
12-01-2011, 01:20 AM
You admit that he isn't a sure thing, but you would be willing to give him 6 years and $60M?

No one's a sure thing, but he's as good as anyone on the market and he costs zero talent in return. I'd like him for less , but I'd go close to $10M per to get something other than no-field firstbasemen and 4th OFers. in LF. I'd like an honest-to-goodness corner outfielder opposite Bruce for once. Brsides, it ain't really gambling unless you play with big bucks. :D

Superdude
12-01-2011, 01:54 AM
This was posted in the minor league forum by redsmetz in a thread starteed by icehole. I thought I'd bring it over here too, because if the Reds were to sign this kid it would impact the way they approach the entire offseason.


http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111114&content_id=25966816&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb


I know it would be a gamble, but I'd go up to six-years $60 on Cespedes as long as his actual age is 32 or under. He's not a sure thing, but at least you're not spending anything in the way of talent. I have a great deal of respect for the Cuban program and its players. I would expect Cespedes to be ready with in a year (if he's not already major league ready).

Stick him in LF and bat him cleanup between votto and Bruce. Then you have all of your trading chips to upgrade the pitching staff unless there's a 3B (Youkilis) or a young SS you like at the right price.

I doubt the big boys just let us walk away with him like we did Chapman, but I notice Buckley is quoted in the article. I seem to recall that the Reds had some kind of "in" or advantage with Chapman. Could something similar exist with this kid? I won't be disappointed if the Reds don't sign Cespedes, because I feel the deck is seriously stacked against them. If I were to find out they made a strong serious run at him though, I'd feel a lot better about the offseason even if they fail.

Seems like Chapman alone would be a legitimate draw. I'm assuming they played together. Not that we're gonna get discount, but "if" we put up the money, I would think that would be a big push in our favor.

corkedbat
12-01-2011, 02:06 AM
Seems like Chapman alone would be a legitimate draw. I'm assuming they played together. Not that we're gonna get discount, but "if" we put up the money, I would think that would be a big push in our favor.



I've just seen Cespedes on TV several times and liked what I saw. I'd be thrilled with him roaming LF for the Reds.

mth123
12-01-2011, 05:53 AM
Before the Reds commit a lot of money to a player this off-season they need to be able to answer yes to these questions:

1. Can he pitch?
2. Has he proven over multiple seasons that he can go 32 starts with over 200 Innings with no major health concerns and a consistent ERA+ above 110?

If the answer to either of these these questions is no, then the only other question that needs to be asked:

3. Is he Joey Votto?

This team needs yes answers to numbers 1 and 2 to commit a lot of money to a guy this offseason IMO with the only exception being a yes answer to number 3.

Dan
12-01-2011, 05:57 AM
Wouldn't cost talent? How much talent could $60 million over 6 years buy?

Nasty_Boy
12-01-2011, 08:22 AM
I prefer the stat that says he struck out approximately 200 times.

That's what I call not catching up to the pitch. :beerme:

Then you are saying Stubbs can't catch up to the breaking ball... I'll argue unti the cows come home that the guy has above average bat speed. He simply struggles to command the zone and recognize off speed stuff. Stubbs seems to sit on breaking balls instead of adjusting to them.

But saying he struck out 200 times because of bat speed couldn't be more off base... Ryan Howard, Adam Dunn and Mark Reynolds have been on the 180+ K team and those guys do not lack bat speed. Well maybe Dunn does now. ;)

lollipopcurve
12-01-2011, 08:32 AM
Trade Votto for pitching and sign this kid. Could be a bullseye for the Reds. You fill the "Big RH bat" problem for years to come (provided he's the real thing), gain long-term financial relief because Cespedes will cost far less than Votto, and infuse pitching into the organization. That's the way I'd like to see the team go.

Benihana
12-01-2011, 04:29 PM
Two Reds-related (one-time darlings of Redszone) Orioles moves of interest:


Orioles Designate Pedro Viola For Assignment
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [December 1 at 2:14pm CST]
The Orioles designated left-hander Pedro Viola for assignment to create roster space for the newly-acquired Taylor Teagarden, the team announced. Baltimore's 40-man roster remains full.

Viola, 28, has appeared in six games for the Orioles since 2010. The Dominican lefty spent much of the 2011 season at Double-A, where he posted a 2.04 ERA with 9.1 K/9 and 2.9 BB/9 in 39 2/3 innings.


Full Story | 9 Comments | Categories: Baltimore Orioles | Pedro Viola | Transactions


Orioles To Acquire Taylor Teagarden
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [December 1 at 1:39pm CST]
The Orioles and Rangers have agreed to a trade that will send Taylor Teagarden to Baltimore for minor league right-hander Randy Henry and a player to be named later. The Orioles have a full 40-man roster and will have to clear room on it for Teagarden.

Teagarden, 27, has a .220/.286/.417 career line with 16 home runs in 392 career big league plate appearances over the course of four seasons. The 2005 third rounder has a .262/.374/.488 line in parts of six minor league seasons. He'll back up starter Matt Wieters.

Henry, 21, has a 3.33 ERA with 8.3 K/9 and 1.7 BB/9 in 75 2/3 minor league innings since the Orioles selected him in the fourth round of the 2009 draft. He has yet to reach Double-A.

While the Orioles had just one catcher -- Wieters -- on their 40-man roster, the Rangers had three of them. Mike Napoli and Yorvit Torrealba were ahead of Teagarden on Texas' depth chart, which made the out-of-options backstop expendable.

Dan Connolly of the Baltimore Sun first reported the discussions and added detail, while Jon Heyman of SI.com first reported that the teams had agreed to a deal.

www.mlbtraderumors.com

Benihana
12-01-2011, 04:32 PM
Trade Votto for pitching and sign this kid. Could be a bullseye for the Reds. You fill the "Big RH bat" problem for years to come (provided he's the real thing), gain long-term financial relief because Cespedes will cost far less than Votto, and infuse pitching into the organization. That's the way I'd like to see the team go.

I'm not a fan of trading Votto, but I admire you're appetite for risk here. However, this thinking is even too risky for me (trading a MVP for an international question mark).

How many times have unknown international hitters (over the age of 21) worked out significantly in the team's favor? Ichiro did, anyone else?

lollipopcurve
12-01-2011, 04:37 PM
trading a MVP for an international question mark

Not what it is though. It's trading Votto for legit pitching and signing a high-ceiling big RH bat for $$$ only (those dollars handy partly by virtue of trading JV).

A player like Cespedes is rare on the FA market, and he just so happens to fit a major need. If the Reds have any advantage at all recruiting Cuban players (given the presence of Chapman, Alonso and Grandal), they have to at least test the waters with Cespedes, I would think.

Mario-Rijo
12-01-2011, 04:44 PM
That's not what the numbers suggest.

How do you figure? Let me just clear this up a smidge, when I say his bat is slow I don't mean too slow to hit a major league pitch. His bat speed seems to be plenty good enough IF he has a pretty good idea of what is coming. A fastball on a fastball count he has enough juice to get to, unless we are talking a Verlander or Chapman type fastball which I have my doubts he could catch up to at all. That said if it's not a traditional fastball count and he is expecting anything but a fastball he has virtually no chance of catching up to it enough to even foul it off. That's a problem because many players in the bigs who can legit hit wait on off speed and react to the fastball for a reason. It's not his biggest problem but it's one that will not allow for him to reach his ultimate ceiling. This is one of the reasons I think if he is smart he starts taking advantage of his wheels and learn to lay down the occasional bunt for more than one reason the biggest of which is to keep the pitcher off balance, afterall this guy is likely a bigger threat to score bunting than hitting one deep.

Benihana
12-01-2011, 04:54 PM
Not what it is though. It's trading Votto for legit pitching and signing a high-ceiling big RH bat for $$$ only (those dollars handy partly by virtue of trading JV).


Weren't Koskue Fukodome and Andy Morales "high-ceiling international FA bats"?

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind getting Cespedes, and he has a chance to be very good. I'm just saying, I'm not ready to bet my MVP on it that he can achieve production anywhere remotely in the ballpark of Joey Votto, or even significantly better than Yonder Alonso at this point.

lollipopcurve
12-01-2011, 05:08 PM
Weren't Koskue Fukodome and Andy Morales "high-ceiling international FA bats"?

You're kidding, right? What is this argument?

Look, read what Chris Buckley has said about Cespedes if you think I'm just blowing smoke. I'm not pulling my thoughts out of thin air.


Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind getting Cespedes, and he has a chance to be very good. I'm just saying, I'm not ready to bet my MVP on it that he can achieve production anywhere remotely in the ballpark of Joey Votto, or even significantly better than Yonder Alonso at this point.

It's not a one-for-one thing, as I've said. The team gets better on the mound. Cespedes will bring better offense to LF or CF eventually, if not at first. $$$ saved will help the team in still other ways.

I admit I'm looking more at a medium-term and long-term than the short-term. If you prefer the short-term only, you stay with Votto -- I'll take the more sustainable approach.

Hoosier Red
12-02-2011, 10:37 AM
In other words it's not Votto vs Cespedes but rather Votto + Alonso vs Alonso + Cespedes + $10 Million Pitcher to be Named Later

A more detailed version of what we've discussed elsewhere.


I'm not sure why Buckley's words are supposed to negate the argument. There's a long list of high profile international players who didn't pan out. And I'm willing to guess they all had their own set of scouts raving about them.

Of course a good number of them have worked out splendidly as well. So I don't think an international player is any better or worse of an unknown when compared to Votto's production versus trading for a Major Leaguer.

Benihana
12-02-2011, 10:59 AM
You're kidding, right? What is this argument?

Look, read what Chris Buckley has said about Cespedes if you think I'm just blowing smoke. I'm not pulling my thoughts out of thin air.


No, I'm not. Scouts RAVED about Fukodome, and it was considered a coup when the Cubs signed him to a 4 year, $48MM deal. In fact, here is a sample quote that a GM could say about Cespedes once they sign him:



"We think we have the whole package," XXX said. "We feel we have a high-average player, a high-on-base-percentage player. He certainly has enough power, and he can hit the ball out of the ballpark. He's a Gold Glove-caliber defender with a tremendous arm in right field, and he can steal bases. All the things we felt or we hear about on a regular basis that we might have lacked -- on-base percentage, more speed, better defense in the outfield -- he fits the bill for all of us. We're not worried about the transition.

The point is, in my mind, if a team like the Reds are going to shell out eight figures per year for a player (not to mention trade their MVP), you better be pretty sure you're getting a very productive player, and it's a LOT harder to know that about a player has never played professional baseball in the United States.


I admit I'm looking more at a medium-term and long-term than the short-term. If you prefer the short-term only, you stay with Votto -- I'll take the more sustainable approach.

For the first time in a very long time, the Reds are in a position to possibly contend for a title in the next two years, provided they can make the right moves to supplement their current core. I want to take full advantage of that opportunity rather than continue to kick the can down the road. Three years from now, when Cespedes, Alonso, or some other rookie will be starting to hit their stride, Cueto, Phillips, and possibly Chapman will likely be gone, Leake may be too expensive, and who knows about Stubbs/Heisey.

I'm not one for totally punting the future to focus on winning now, but I'd also rather be a serious contender for the next couple years and worry about 2015 later than "stay interesting" indefinitely without really ever going for it. We still have guys like Mez, Bruce, Cozart, and all of the guys who were in Dayton last year for the future, and no one is talking about trading all of them.

lollipopcurve
12-02-2011, 11:40 AM
For the first time in a very long time, the Reds are in a position to possibly contend for a title in the next two years, provided they can make the right moves to supplement their current core. I want to take full advantage of that opportunity rather than continue to kick the can down the road. Three years from now, when Cespedes, Alonso, or some other rookie will be starting to hit their stride, Cueto, Phillips, and possibly Chapman will likely be gone, Leake may be too expensive, and who knows about Stubbs/Heisey.

I'm not one for totally punting the future to focus on winning now, but I'd also rather be a serious contender for the next couple years and worry about 2015 later than "stay interesting" indefinitely without really ever going for it. We still have guys like Mez, Bruce, Cozart, and all of the guys who were in Dayton last year for the future, and no one is talking about trading all of them.

This is a valid argument, provided the team can fill at least 2 of 3 their holes this offseason, I'd say -- frontline starter, big RH bat, closer. Maybe all 3 if you want an unequivocal "all in." So -- how do you propose they do this?

Will M
12-02-2011, 12:26 PM
For the first time in a very long time, the Reds are in a position to possibly contend for a title in the next two years, provided they can make the right moves to supplement their current core. I want to take full advantage of that opportunity rather than continue to kick the can down the road. Three years from now, when Cespedes, Alonso, or some other rookie will be starting to hit their stride, Cueto, Phillips, and possibly Chapman will likely be gone, Leake may be too expensive, and who knows about Stubbs/Heisey.

I'm not one for totally punting the future to focus on winning now, but I'd also rather be a serious contender for the next couple years and worry about 2015 later than "stay interesting" indefinitely without really ever going for it. We still have guys like Mez, Bruce, Cozart, and all of the guys who were in Dayton last year for the future, and no one is talking about trading all of them.

Will M
12-02-2011, 12:30 PM
For the first time in a very long time, the Reds are in a position to possibly contend for a title in the next two years, provided they can make the right moves to supplement their current core. I want to take full advantage of that opportunity rather than continue to kick the can down the road. Three years from now, when Cespedes, Alonso, or some other rookie will be starting to hit their stride, Cueto, Phillips, and possibly Chapman will likely be gone, Leake may be too expensive, and who knows about Stubbs/Heisey.

I'm not one for totally punting the future to focus on winning now, but I'd also rather be a serious contender for the next couple years and worry about 2015 later than "stay interesting" indefinitely without really ever going for it. We still have guys like Mez, Bruce, Cozart, and all of the guys who were in Dayton last year for the future, and no one is talking about trading all of them.

I have to disagree here. Lets say the Reds could get a weak #2/strong #3 starter (say Wandy) for spare parts (CF & Volquez). Thats the entire payflex gone. Solid needed acquisition. But thats all the money the Reds have. IMO even with this type of deal the team is still a high 80s win total type of team. I think they are the 3rd best team in the division. Now IF the team added more payroll, say an extra $10M, then Walt has all kinds of things he could do to make the team a contender. I just don't see how the team is a real contender with the payroll they plan to have.

mdccclxix
12-02-2011, 12:41 PM
This is a valid argument, provided the team can fill at least 2 of 3 their holes this offseason, I'd say -- frontline starter, big RH bat, closer. Maybe all 3 if you want an unequivocal "all in." So -- how do you propose they do this?

I would look at dealing some of the younger minor league talent that is less certain but has a lot of shine (Billy Hamilton, Torreyes, etc). If those chips can bring in as much as Alonso, I'd look that way. The way the roster is melding with Alonso, Francisco and Sappelt I think having them around will really help Dusty create tough lineups. Defensively they all provide some adventure, though.

*Alonso will provide another year of Votto insurance and be as good a bat as they could find on the market for LF.

*Francisco will add 15 HR from the 3b position filling in for and keeping Rolen fresh.

*Sappelt could spell Stubbs and Heisey in CF and LF as well as provide a tough out as a PH.

The two year window plan would allow the Reds to deal their younger players with an ETA of 2014 or later. If things flop in 2013, deal off Votto for a truck of young players. It's important to realize, so much can happen in 2 years as well.

- Scrap heap pickups that work out.
- Rule 5
- Comp picks (Ramon and Cordero...Phillips?)
- The Reds draft pretty darn well

I say you have to roll the dice on a few of the young prospects and use most of the old/ready ones to help you win a championship.

My list of availables by way of finding a SP and Closer:

-2 of Wood, Volquez, Bailey
-1 of Stubbs, Heisey, Sappelt
-Soto
-Henry Rodriguez
-Cody Puckett
-Two of Yorman, Duran, Hamilton, Torreyes
-Lotzkar
-Gregorious
-Lamarre
-Lutz
-Phipps
-Renken
-Joseph

That's 20 players that can be dealt, most of them AA or below. There are likely 5-10 more interesting prospects. If you took any 10 of them out in favor of a #2 and a closer, I am confident the Reds would be OK in 2 years.

REDREAD
12-02-2011, 01:32 PM
For the first time in a very long time, the Reds are in a position to possibly contend for a title in the next two years, provided they can make the right moves to supplement their current core. I want to take full advantage of that opportunity rather than continue to kick the can down the road. .

I agree completely. The Reds MUST add a starting pitcher and a reliever this year. And these have to be two guys that will be steady producers. They can't be another project.

Honestly, I don't care if they have to empty the farm to do it either.
I'd like to keep Juan Francisco, only because he's depth at 3b and LF, but pretty much any other prospect or backup player is fair game.

I'm as big a fan of Walt as any, but if we enter the season with no pitching upgrades, I'm going to be disappointed. It would be nice to trade Alonso this offseason and get value for him too, but I guess I could live with him lumbering in LF. Last offseason, they were coming off a division title, and they had a lot of young pitching to sort through .. things have shook out though.. no excuse to be conservative this year.

lollipopcurve
12-02-2011, 01:56 PM
My list of availables by way of finding a SP and Closer:

-2 of Wood, Volquez, Bailey
-1 of Stubbs, Heisey, Sappelt
-Soto
-Henry Rodriguez
-Cody Puckett
-Two of Yorman, Duran, Hamilton, Torreyes
-Lotzkar
-Gregorious
-Lamarre
-Lutz
-Phipps
-Renken
-Joseph

Suffice it to say you are being extremely optimistic in thinking these players can bring back a proven #1/2 and a solid closer. You're relying on a team being willing to take quantity over quality. Without Alonso and Francisco and Grandal on the list, I don't see the team being able to use prospects to bring back the kind of starter that would make the team a legit championship contender.

Benihana
12-02-2011, 02:05 PM
This is a valid argument, provided the team can fill at least 2 of 3 their holes this offseason, I'd say -- frontline starter, big RH bat, closer. Maybe all 3 if you want an unequivocal "all in." So -- how do you propose they do this?

1. Trade Yonder Alonso for Michael Pineda. Add Grandal if they'll provide more coming back (say Brandon League + others)
2. Sign Carlos Beltran or Josh Willingham to a 2 year deal to play LF.

I've always been a firm believer that the closer role can be filled organically, whether that's by Masset, Bray, Ondrusek, Volquez, Boxberger or someone else (ie a very inexpensive FA acquisition.)

There's also a host of other players that could be made available to acquire other key pieces. A lot of them are semi-redundant with another player in the organization. The Reds need to pick one and trade one if they can find a taker. I would include on this list:

Wood/Volquez
Stubbs/Heisey/Sappelt
Francisco/Frazier
Hamilton/Torreyes
Duran/Rodriguez

There are many others (Janish/Valaika) but the above five pairings all have significant enough trade value to acquire significant players that could help at the major league level. Add Alonso and/or Grandal to the list, and the Reds should be able to get the pieces that they need to supplement this core group and contend for a title for the next two years.

Other rumored available pitchers I'd be targeting include Matt Garza, Cole Hamels, James Shields, and Trevor Cahill - probably in that order.
I'd only trade Alonso if you think he'll be unable to play LF and/or OPS at least .840 over the next two years. If you believe he can effectively do both of those, I'd hang onto him and trade more minor league talent for the aforementioned targets.

mdccclxix
12-02-2011, 02:06 PM
Suffice it to say you are being extremely optimistic in thinking these players can bring back a proven #1/2 and a solid closer. You're relying on a team being willing to take quantity over quality. Without Alonso and Francisco and Grandal on the list, I don't see the team being able to use prospects to bring back the kind of starter that would make the team a legit championship contender.

There are a couple of MLB players on the list and a couple of high upside top 100 talent on the list. I see deals get done quite often with players similar to above.

Edit: and I didn't say #1 starter, that's different. I was thinking more #2 or good #3.

jojo
12-02-2011, 02:46 PM
1. Trade Yonder Alonso for Michael Pineda. Add Grandal if they'll provide more coming back (say Brandon League + others)

Yonder isn't enough to get Pineda....

lollipopcurve
12-02-2011, 03:25 PM
1. Trade Yonder Alonso for Michael Pineda. Add Grandal if they'll provide more coming back (say Brandon League + others)

Agree with jojo -- Alonso isn't enough. Alonso + Grandal is an overpay IMO because Pineda has never shown 200 inning durability (plus if Mesoraco proves mediocre and Votto leaves in 2014, the team is off a cliff without a 1B or C).


2. Sign Carlos Beltran or Josh Willingham to a 2 year deal to play LF.

2 won't get it done, I predict. And the team will have to outbid teams like Boston and SF. Remember. too, that both these players have had injury problems -- especially Beltran.

It sounds to me as if ownership is having a debate similar to the one we're having. And the way Alonso is being featured in the media and around Redsfest lately, it seems to me they have no intention of trading him.....

kaldaniels
12-02-2011, 04:06 PM
I love how the news only thread gets screwed up by the sixth post or so. That's Redszone.

Kc61
12-02-2011, 04:15 PM
I love how the news only thread gets screwed up by the sixth post or so. That's Redszone.

Waiting for news/rumors on the Reds in the off-season is like watching paint dry. Except paint dries in a couple of days.

One reads the rumor pages and wonders if the Reds have been contracted out of existence.

We should have a poll on when the next actual "news only" post will be made. I would be tempted to take "sometime in 2012, if then" in such a poll.

Sorry, I forgot, there will be news soon. When Cordero leaves to sign elsewhere. The Reds do have off-season activity when other teams sign their players.

mdccclxix
12-02-2011, 04:44 PM
1. Trade Yonder Alonso for Michael Pineda. Add Grandal if they'll provide more coming back (say Brandon League + others)
2. Sign Carlos Beltran or Josh Willingham to a 2 year deal to play LF.

I've always been a firm believer that the closer role can be filled organically, whether that's by Masset, Bray, Ondrusek, Volquez, Boxberger or someone else (ie a very inexpensive FA acquisition.)

There's also a host of other players that could be made available to acquire other key pieces. A lot of them are semi-redundant with another player in the organization. The Reds need to pick one and trade one if they can find a taker. I would include on this list:

Wood/Volquez
Stubbs/Heisey/Sappelt
Francisco/Frazier
Hamilton/Torreyes
Duran/Rodriguez

There are many others (Janish/Valaika) but the above five pairings all have significant enough trade value to acquire significant players that could help at the major league level. Add Alonso and/or Grandal to the list, and the Reds should be able to get the pieces that they need to supplement this core group and contend for a title for the next two years.

Other rumored available pitchers I'd be targeting include Matt Garza, Cole Hamels, James Shields, and Trevor Cahill - probably in that order.
I'd only trade Alonso if you think he'll be unable to play LF and/or OPS at least .840 over the next two years. If you believe he can effectively do both of those, I'd hang onto him and trade more minor league talent for the aforementioned targets.

This batch of players, I think, could be enough to at least get a closer, but more hopefully, a 2/3 SP. You still have Alonso, Mesoraco, Grandal and Chapman. In fact, if you just erased that whole batch of players (save a CF though) and added a 200 inning #2/#3 SP and quality closer, both signed for 2-3 years, you wouldn't need the minors for a few years.

Votto
BP / AAA
Cozart
Rolen / AAA
Bruce
CF
Alonso
Mez

Aquisition
Cueto
Leake
Arroyo
Chapman Bailey

Barring injury, there really aren't a lot of huge openings in the next 2 years, unless BP isn't resigned.

My point isn't that we should trade huge quantity, just that we could, and for the next 2 years, it wouldn't really matter. By then, the system would be replenishing.

corkedbat
12-02-2011, 05:24 PM
I would look at dealing some of the younger minor league talent that is less certain but has a lot of shine (Billy Hamilton, Torreyes, etc). If those chips can bring in as much as Alonso, I'd look that way. The way the roster is melding with Alonso, Francisco and Sappelt I think having them around will really help Dusty create tough lineups. Defensively they all provide some adventure, though.

*Alonso will provide another year of Votto insurance and be as good a bat as they could find on the market for LF.

*Francisco will add 15 HR from the 3b position filling in for and keeping Rolen fresh.

*Sappelt could spell Stubbs and Heisey in CF and LF as well as provide a tough out as a PH.

The two year window plan would allow the Reds to deal their younger players with an ETA of 2014 or later. If things flop in 2013, deal off Votto for a truck of young players. It's important to realize, so much can happen in 2 years as well.

- Scrap heap pickups that work out.
- Rule 5
- Comp picks (Ramon and Cordero...Phillips?)
- The Reds draft pretty darn well

I say you have to roll the dice on a few of the young prospects and use most of the old/ready ones to help you win a championship.

My list of availables by way of finding a SP and Closer:

-2 of Wood, Volquez, Bailey
-1 of Stubbs, Heisey, Sappelt
-Soto
-Henry Rodriguez
-Cody Puckett
-Two of Yorman, Duran, Hamilton, Torreyes
-Lotzkar
-Gregorious
-Lamarre
-Lutz
-Phipps
-Renken
-Joseph

That's 20 players that can be dealt, most of them AA or below. There are likely 5-10 more interesting prospects. If you took any 10 of them out in favor of a #2 and a closer, I am confident the Reds would be OK in 2 years.

I'd include Alonso, Grandal, one of Frazier or Francisco, one of several relievers, Sulbaran (you neer know who might be a good pot sweetner) and even Corcino if the starter was right.

Of course, I'm not saying I'd deal all my list and yours - just saying they'd all be available if the deal was right. It may seem a little strange, but out of your list and mine, Gregorious would be the first guy I'd pull back. Not saying he's untouchable by any means, but I just like the fact that he's a switch-hitting MI with speed and a decent bat who could be within a year of the Big Show. I'd like to see he & Cozart sharing/competing for the SS spot.

Deal for the right starter and closer and it would be a successfull offseason IMO.

* I could live with Street or Andrew Bailey at the closer spot. You might get Bailey from the A's at a reasonable price.

* I'd like to add another LH 8th/9th inning lefty to pair with Bray in the pen (McGee from TB?). I wouldn't mind adding Octavio Dotel also (at the right price).

* My top dozen starter trade targets (from th0se i've seen mentioned( in order of preference:
)01. James Shields (TB)
02. Matt Garza (CHC)
03. Johnny Danks (CHW)
04. Micheal Pineda (SEA)
05. Wandy Rodriguez (HOU)
06. Ervin Santana (ANH)
07. Jeff Niemann (TB)
08. Wade Davis (TB)
09. Brett Anderson (OAK)
10. Francisco Liriano (MIN)
11. Trevor Cahill (OAK)
12. Gio Gonzalez (OAK)

* I'd hope for a decent price, but I would target Yoennis Cespedes for the LF spot.

* My core package for a starter would be (Shields or better):
- Alonso, Grandal, One of Stubbs/Heisey/Sappelt and One of Bailey/Volquez/Wood with other pieces going each way as needed

* Clay Kershaw, Chad Billingsley, Andy Either & Andrew McCutcheon would be my "It Ain't Gonna Happen But I'd Still Take My Best Shot For The Heck Of It Anyway" longshot targets. :D

TRF
12-02-2011, 05:50 PM
If the Reds trade Alonso, Shields better be the return. period. No one else on the market is even remotely appealing. Ans while I am not as high on Alonso as others, I do think he can be a .290/.380+/.500+ hitter next year.

The reds were a top 5 NL offense with black holes at 4 positions. If Alonso never plays for the Reds again and we get Shields for a few years, I'll be thrilled.

HokieRed
12-02-2011, 08:18 PM
If the Reds trade Alonso, Shields better be the return. period. No one else on the market is even remotely appealing. Ans while I am not as high on Alonso as others, I do think he can be a .290/.380+/.500+ hitter next year.

The reds were a top 5 NL offense with black holes at 4 positions. If Alonso never plays for the Reds again and we get Shields for a few years, I'll be thrilled.

Aren't too many out there who have Alonso at .880 next year. If a guy is really an .880, why trade him? Period.

TRF
12-02-2011, 09:09 PM
Aren't too many out there who have Alonso at .880 next year. If a guy is really an .880, why trade him? Period.

because offense isn't the problem.

MikeS21
12-03-2011, 08:28 AM
because offense isn't the problem.
Can't say I agree. Beef up the offense, and I'll take my chances with the staff we have.

HokieRed
12-03-2011, 10:02 AM
If we seriously think Alonso can put up .880 in what is basically his rookie season, then he's not the first baseman to trade.

RedLegSuperStar
12-03-2011, 10:43 AM
I agree with beefing up the offense but to do that most teams would want pitching. Of the staff i'd offer (Wood, Volquez, Bailey, and Leake) I'm not sure you are going to get more then a past their prime type player. Sure you can sign Willingham but sure his price tag will be through the roof to play in Cincinnati.

If we are wheeling and dealing I focus in on Top of The Rotation Starter, LF/CF, and SS.

Scrap Irony
12-03-2011, 11:06 AM
If we seriously think Alonso can put up .880 in what is basically his rookie season, then he's not the first baseman to trade.

If he goes 880, he's fine as a LF, IMO, and a great hitter in the lower part of the order. (Not that an 880 bat would belong down there, but that Baker won't put three lefties in a row.)

traderumor
12-03-2011, 11:12 AM
Can't say I agree. Beef up the offense, and I'll take my chances with the staff we have.We tried that for oh, let me see, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011. We have one division title to show for it. I'm thinking that isn't a winning model. But sure, lets try it again in 2012. Fun.

mdccclxix
12-05-2011, 11:47 AM
Reds are still in on Willingham. I like the idea in conjunction with a trade for a cost controlled #2 pitcher. It makes nearly all the OF pieces available in a trade except Bruce and one CF.

RedEye
12-05-2011, 11:56 AM
Reds are still in on Willingham. I like the idea in conjunction with a trade for a cost controlled #2 pitcher. It makes nearly all the OF pieces available in a trade except Bruce and one CF.

I've always thought Willingham would be a good target for the Reds. If the team gets Shields, Willingham and a contingency plan at SS this off-season -- all of which I consider realistic goals -- I will gave the FO an "A" for their efforts. Shields is obviously the most difficult piece to obtain in this scenario, but if they get Willingham, I think it's possible...

Vottomatic
12-05-2011, 12:05 PM
Reds are still in on Willingham. I like the idea in conjunction with a trade for a cost controlled #2 pitcher. It makes nearly all the OF pieces available in a trade except Bruce and one CF.

I still don't see where Willingham is any better than Heisey. And Heisey is younger and cheaper.

Vottomatic
12-05-2011, 12:08 PM
I've always thought Willingham would be a good target for the Reds. If the team gets Shields, Willingham and a contingency plan at SS this off-season -- all of which I consider realistic goals -- I will gave the FO an "A" for their efforts. Shields is obviously the most difficult piece to obtain in this scenario, but if they get Willingham, I think it's possible...

My expectations are higher. I want to acquire Shields and Pineda or some other #2 quality pitcher. Reds have plenty to deal and only 2 more years of Votto. They need to quit wasting time, hoping these prospects and young guys pan out, and strengthen the pitching. Castellini seems to be the one who keeps rejecting some of these moves you hear about.

Time to make some tough decisions and strengthen the starting pitching.

Platoon Heisey and Sappelt in LF. I'm fine with that.

mdccclxix
12-05-2011, 12:19 PM
Willingham is a model of consistency. His career OPS is .836. He hit's LHP .870 and RHP .827. He has better plate discipline than Heisey. He's a RH that can fit in the lineup well. He'll slug close to .500 at GABP. His defense is bad, though. He's a good contingency plan if the Reds empty out their OF for a great pitcher. 3 years, 24 million is as high as I'd go.

marcshoe
12-05-2011, 12:36 PM
I'm a huge fan of getting Willingham. Very solid, very consistent, and, as has been mentioned, frees up outfielders for a trade for pitching. The only problem I'd see is that he'd be in left, and Alonso's new physique might have him headed in that direction if he isn't traded.

Tom Servo
12-05-2011, 12:42 PM
Yeah I've been hoping for the Reds to acquire Willingham ever since the Marlins first made him available a few years ago, I'd love to see him added.

mdccclxix
12-05-2011, 01:16 PM
I'm a huge fan of getting Willingham. Very solid, very consistent, and, as has been mentioned, frees up outfielders for a trade for pitching. The only problem I'd see is that he'd be in left, and Alonso's new physique might have him headed in that direction if he isn't traded.

For this reason, I'd really rather see the Reds spend on Buehrle or Wilson than Willingham, although the budget probably won't let that happen. I'd assume whatever Alonso is packaged for has got to be a better deal for the Reds than the current FA's available. And don't forget Oswalt could be waiting around for a deal.

Vottomatic
12-05-2011, 03:42 PM
Benihana or someone reported on the hot stove news thread that the Marlins have significant interest in Alonso. Who would you want back? I'd start with Stanton and one of their pitchers. Hehehe.

bucksfan2
12-05-2011, 04:03 PM
Benihana or someone reported on the hot stove news thread that the Marlins have significant interest in Alonso. Who would you want back? I'd start with Stanton and one of their pitchers. Hehehe.

Hanley.

It would be a roll of the dice but its apparent that they are moving him off of SS. Give Hanley a year at SS and have Cozart play a Janish roll. Then after Rolen is done next year move Hanley to 3b and have Cozart take over at SS.

It doesn't address pitching and a move would need to be made to bolster that heading into 2012.

Benihana
12-05-2011, 04:13 PM
Hanley.

It would be a roll of the dice but its apparent that they are moving him off of SS. Give Hanley a year at SS and have Cozart play a Janish roll. Then after Rolen is done next year move Hanley to 3b and have Cozart take over at SS.

It doesn't address pitching and a move would need to be made to bolster that heading into 2012.

Agree with this, although the Reds would have to find the funds and my guess is it would take more than just Alonso.

The Marlins would likely ask for Alonso and Chapman, as they attempt to gain a monopoly on all the Cubans in MLB. Would you do that?

I think the Marlins are probably thinking more along the lines of LoMo for Alonso, but that is just my own speculation.

Dan
12-05-2011, 04:15 PM
Yonder and Chapman for HanRam, LoMo, and the remnants of Josh Johnson?

Benihana
12-05-2011, 04:19 PM
Yonder and Chapman for HanRam, LoMo, and the remnants of Josh Johnson?

Would require a lot more than that on the Reds part.

The Operator
12-05-2011, 04:24 PM
I wouldn't touch Hanley with a 10-ft. pole. He's a clubhouse cancer and he had a pretty awful year in 2011. Let someone else deal with his problems.

The Reds need starting pitching - it would be short-sighted to waste any resources at all on acquiring a guy like Hanley Ramirez in my opinion.

Benihana
12-05-2011, 04:34 PM
Here's an idea:

Yonder Alonso, Yasmani Grandal, Nick Masset and Chris Heisey for James Shields and BJ Upton.

Who hangs up first?

bucksfan2
12-05-2011, 04:36 PM
Agree with this, although the Reds would have to find the funds and my guess is it would take more than just Alonso.

The Marlins would likely ask for Alonso and Chapman, as they attempt to gain a monopoly on all the Cubans in MLB. Would you do that?

I think the Marlins are probably thinking more along the lines of LoMo for Alonso, but that is just my own speculation.

Two years ago I would backed up the truck for Hanley. Right now, not so much. He is coming off a bad year and I don't really know what to expect. Especially if you move him off of SS his "value" diminishes. I do tend to think that he is athletic enough to move to 2B, 3B, LF which would create flexibility.

I don't have much of an issue parting with Alonso if it makes the team better. Chapman on the other hand I would be wary about. Right now, if he doesn't improve from his current state, he is still a very valuable commodity in baseball. A closer in waiting who has lights out stuff but can be inconsistent has a long shelf life in baseball. His move to the rotation is a wild card and I don't know what to expect. Its like having a lottery ticket in which you already hit the first 4 numbers and don't know about the final 2.

For Hanley I would consider Yonder, Francisco, and Wood.

Vottomatic
12-05-2011, 04:52 PM
Here's an idea:

Yonder Alonso, Yasmani Grandal, Nick Masset and Chris Heisey for James Shields and BJ Upton.

Who hangs up first?

Geez. I feel like that's overpaying honestly. Shields had an e.r.a. over 5.00 in 2010. He's been mostly consistent, but 2011 was his best season ever. Does that make him a Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Lincecum, Kershaw-type pitcher? I don't think so.

Reds should probably hang up first, but to pry Shields away, I think the Reds will have to overpay.

How 'bout.......Alonso, Grandal, Heisey for Pineda and Ichiro, with the M's paying 1/2 of Ichiro's salary? Ichiro can be our new leadoff man. LOL.

Vottomatic
12-05-2011, 04:53 PM
I wouldn't touch Hanley with a 10-ft. pole. He's a clubhouse cancer and he had a pretty awful year in 2011. Let someone else deal with his problems.

The Reds need starting pitching - it would be short-sighted to waste any resources at all on acquiring a guy like Hanley Ramirez in my opinion.

Alot of people said the same about Matt Kemp after his 2010 season.

I'd prefer trading our players for Stanton and one of their better starting pitchers.

mdccclxix
12-05-2011, 04:58 PM
I could see the Marlins wanting to deal Nolasco, who's owed 9 million this year, making room for Pujols. But they have rotation concerns so that would be weird.

RedsManRick
12-05-2011, 05:06 PM
I'd pursue Hanley in a heartbeat with Stubbs, Fransisco and Volquez as my key chips. You buy low and Hanley is low. They are hard up for both 3B and CF and this would give them young, cheap options. They could move LoMo to 1B or use Fransisco there.

To make the money work, I'd be trying to pull off the Votto for an ace trade (Shields, Pineda, etc). Move Alonso to 1B and play Hanley in LF or CF. He then takes over 3B next year.

Tom Servo
12-05-2011, 05:15 PM
Harang signs with the Dodgers, looks like he's following the Jon Garland method of going touring the west on 1-2 year pacts.

TRF
12-05-2011, 05:19 PM
Great move for Harang. Keeps him close to home, SD, and keeps him in the spacious NL West.

mdccclxix
12-05-2011, 05:36 PM
The CJ Wilson case intrigues me only because there is a mystery team and that points to Walt. Wilson could be a Carpenter type player that emerges late and stays great for years. That would blow Reds fans away. CJ Wilson, 6 years 90 million.

Benihana
12-05-2011, 06:10 PM
The CJ Wilson case intrigues me only because there is a mystery team and that points to Walt. Wilson could be a Carpenter type player that emerges late and stays great for years. That would blow Reds fans away. CJ Wilson, 6 years 90 million.

There was also a mystery team for Cliff Lee, which of course turned out to be the Phillies. Would've been nice to have been the mystery team then.

757690
12-05-2011, 06:14 PM
The CJ Wilson case intrigues me only because there is a mystery team and that points to Walt. Wilson could be a Carpenter type player that emerges late and stays great for years. That would blow Reds fans away. CJ Wilson, 6 years 90 million.

I hope not. CJ's really not that great. He's good, but not worth a contract like that.

Tom Servo
12-05-2011, 06:15 PM
Dodgers are apparently close on adding another ex-Red, Jerry Hairston Jr.

Vottomatic
12-05-2011, 07:14 PM
Who are the 6 starters the Reds have targeted? And do they mean in trade or does it include free agency?

The only ones I can think of are the ones mentioned on here:
CJ Wilson (FA)
Pineda (by trade)
Shields (by trade)
Gio Gonzalez (by trade)
Kershaw?
Billingsley?
Danks?
Jurrjens?
Wandy R.?

RedsManRick
12-05-2011, 07:24 PM
Saw Heyman say that the Reds are "very interested" in Jurrjens. I REALLY hope not. He is not that top of rotation guy we need, just another mid-rotation type who has gotten lucky with the BABIP and timing (LOB%).

Will M
12-05-2011, 07:36 PM
Saw Heyman say that the Reds are "very interested" in Jurrjens. I REALLY hope not. He is not that top of rotation guy we need, just another mid-rotation type who has gotten lucky with the BABIP and timing (LOB%).

+1

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/jurrjens-isnt-worth-a-top-prospect/

RedLegSuperStar
12-05-2011, 07:42 PM
Reds are in on Jair and apparently Dotel.

757690
12-05-2011, 07:45 PM
Saw Heyman say that the Reds are "very interested" in Jurrjens. I REALLY hope not. He is not that top of rotation guy we need, just another mid-rotation type who has gotten lucky with the BABIP and timing (LOB%).

I'm more worried about his health. He's lost significant velocity last season.

Still, he would be a solid addition to the Reds rotation, and it depends on the price.

If it was for a package like Heisey, Wood and Fraizer, I'd be happy. But considering he's a question mark health wise, I wouldn't trade any top prospects for him.

Dan
12-05-2011, 07:46 PM
Saw Heyman say that the Reds are "very interested" in Jurrjens. I REALLY hope not. He is not that top of rotation guy we need, just another mid-rotation type who has gotten lucky with the BABIP and timing (LOB%).

Plus, as Heyman noted, the Braves know when to sell high on their pitchers.

Im rooting for Gio Gonzalez myself.

savafan
12-05-2011, 08:14 PM
If it was for a package like Heisey, Wood and Fraizer, I'd be happy. But considering he's a question mark health wise, I wouldn't trade any top prospects for him.

That's too much to give up for Jurrjens. Heck, any one of those guys straight up is too much. I still think Wood can be a very solid pitcher similar to Cliff Lee of the Phillies. Maybe I'm the only one.

lollipopcurve
12-05-2011, 08:21 PM
I'd be fine with Jurrjens (depending on the price, of course). He's a free agent in 2 years and has Boras as his agent, so that probably keeps his price reasonable. His injuries are not arm-related. Doesn't have the wicked peripherals, but he's real good pitcher.

mth123
12-05-2011, 09:03 PM
Here's an idea:

Yonder Alonso, Yasmani Grandal, Nick Masset and Chris Heisey for James Shields and BJ Upton.

Who hangs up first?

Leave Heisey and Upton out of it and I like it. Upton is basically Drew Stubbs without the defense and a brother who can really play. He was a lot more interesting when he was an infielder. Now he's a pricey rental who doesn't upgrade much of anything IMO.

mth123
12-05-2011, 09:18 PM
2011 Edinson Volquez - xFIP 4.08, SIERA 4.25. 2011 Jair Jurjjens - xFIP 4.23, SIERA 4.43.

The two best predictors of future pitching performance both indicate that Volquez should outpitch Jurjjens in 2012. I'm the last guy to completely buy the metrics alone without adding a little observation and consideration of the circumstances into the mix, but IMO adding Jurjjens isn't bringing in the stability required.

757690
12-05-2011, 09:37 PM
2011 Edinson Volquez - xFIP 4.08, SIERA 4.25. 2011 Jair Jurjjens - xFIP 4.23, SIERA 4.43.

The two best predictors of future pitching performance both indicate that Volquez should outpitch Jurjjens in 2012. I'm the last guy to completely buy the metrics alone without adding a little observation and consideration of the circumstances into the mix, but IMO adding Jurjjens isn't bringing in the stability required.

Just a little observation would illuminate how unreliable those predictors can be. They are the best, but never should be used in isolation.

Jurjjens relies on a lot of movement and deception, and thus can get by with less K's as long as he has his control. He also has been very good for the last three seasons with the same peripherals, so as long as he's healthy, he should be just as good.

I agree he's not a TOR pitcher, but he's better and more stable (if healthy) than most of the Reds rotation in 2012. Amd he's only 25.

savafan
12-05-2011, 09:43 PM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111205&content_id=26101044&vkey=news_cin&c_id=cin


DALLAS -- Although there is a report to the contrary, the Reds do not appear to be going hard after Braves starter Jair Jurrjens.

A tweet from SI.com and MLB Network reporter Jon Heyman on Monday night said the Reds were "very interested" in Jurrjens as a possible No. 2 starter for their rotation. It also said 10 teams were involved in pursuing the right-hander.

A baseball source familiar with the Reds' situation told MLB.com on Monday that there was no interest on their part to pursue Jurrjens. Another issue is that Atlanta and Cincinnati don't appear to match up well for a trade.

Cedric
12-05-2011, 09:51 PM
Jurrjens looks exactly like someone the Reds would blow their best trade chips on.

Someone with a limited ceiling that played well above his head last year. I hope this is all bs.

corkedbat
12-05-2011, 10:01 PM
Geez. I feel like that's overpaying honestly. Shields had an e.r.a. over 5.00 in 2010. He's been mostly consistent, but 2011 was his best season ever. Does that make him a Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Lincecum, Kershaw-type pitcher? I don't think so.

Reds should probably hang up first, but to pry Shields away, I think the Reds will have to overpay.

How 'bout.......Alonso, Grandal, Heisey for Pineda and Ichiro, with the M's paying 1/2 of Ichiro's salary? Ichiro can be our new leadoff man. LOL.

Yonder Alonso, Yasmani Grandal, Drew Stubbs, and Nick Massett

for

James Shields, BJ Upton and Jake McGee

I would have been flipping out a year ago if you'd told me there was chance we could land HanRam. I'd have said back the truck up to the farm system gates and take what you want.

Now though, its Alonso straight up and the Fish pay half of what he's due (and I'm still leary of clubhouse impact at that).

LoMo underwent knee surgery today, but should be ready for the opening of ST. Haven't kept close tabs on him, but could the knee have been a large portion of what was causing his issues this past season? They say it has been naggig him for months.

mattfeet
12-05-2011, 10:07 PM
During Bengals Line tonight while commercials were playing Lance Mcalister said Seg Man was heading to GABP because the Reds had made a trade.

Lance McAlister confirmed it was for Jurrjens.


This is hearsay at this point, but still from somewhat reputable sources. Who knows.

-matt

Mario-Rijo
12-05-2011, 10:10 PM
Can't say I agree. Beef up the offense, and I'll take my chances with the staff we have.

Without a doubt. It may not work but I think I would feel good about it, assuming my version of beefing up the offense is the same as theirs. Give me David Wright at 3B and maybe find a good leadoff hitter (M. Bourn maybe) and I'm content with just getting back to the playoffs at this point and maybe one of these pitchers will finally mature to match Cueto last season (if Cueto keeps it up that is, I think he'll be close).

savafan
12-05-2011, 10:18 PM
During Bengals Line tonight while commercials were playing Lance Mcalister said Seg Man was heading to GABP because the Reds had made a trade.

Lance McAlister confirmed it was for Jurrjens.


This is hearsay at this point, but still from somewhat reputable sources. Who knows.

-matt

I didn't see it, because I don't have it, but apparently someone on MLB TV just recently said something similar. That's what I was told anyway.

The Operator
12-05-2011, 10:20 PM
Oh god, I hope not. Jair Jurrjens upgrades nothing. But, this is a move The Reds would make. So it's probably true.

Joseph
12-05-2011, 10:22 PM
Scary thought

mattfeet
12-05-2011, 10:23 PM
Im scouring the internet and twitter for other updates but can't find anything.

-Matt

Mario-Rijo
12-05-2011, 10:24 PM
Oh god, I hope not. Jair Jurrjens upgrades nothing. But, this is a move The Reds would make. So it's probably true.

I've always accused them of being mediocre at best evaluators of talent. Atlanta usually is not, or didn't use to be anyway. Best guess is either Stubbs or Heisey is a part of the deal, that is what my gut says. Hopefully it's more like Phipps.

The Operator
12-05-2011, 10:24 PM
Im scouring the internet and twitter for other updates but can't find anything.

-MattAnd I'm hoping you won't.

Good grief, the thoguht of wasting important trade chips on Jair Jurrjens is enough to make me sick to my stomach. Surely Jocketty is smarter than that. He has to be... right?

savafan
12-05-2011, 10:25 PM
It smells like Rob Bell all over again.

Mario-Rijo
12-05-2011, 10:25 PM
It smells like Rob Bell all over again.

Bubba and the Bong...

The Operator
12-05-2011, 10:26 PM
It smells like Rob Bell all over again.But... Rob Bell netted us EdE who netted us Rolen.

..eh? eh? :D

The Operator
12-05-2011, 10:27 PM
I've always accused them of being mediocre at best evaluators of talent. Atlanta usually is not, or didn't use to be anyway. Best guess is either Stubbs or Heisey is a part of the deal, that is what my gut says. Hopefully it's more like Phipps.I could live with Stubbs or Heisey. Any mention of Alonso, Mes, Grandal or the like though and I'll probably deposit my dinner in a trashcan.

Captain Hook
12-05-2011, 10:29 PM
I don't get it why you guys are against Jurrjens becoming a Red.He's had three very solid season and is only 25 yrs old.There's only two guys in the Reds current rotation that has had the success Jurrjens has and most would prefer that one of those two are left out of the rotation going forward.He would be a clear upgrade imo.Maybe people are just worried about what Walt might give up for him.

Mario-Rijo
12-05-2011, 10:29 PM
I could live with Stubbs or Heisey. Any mention of Alonso, Mes, Grandal or the like though and I'll probably deposit my dinner in a trashcan.

I could live with it also I suppose but I hope if it is Jurjenns we expand it to get Bourn or Prado also.

Mario-Rijo
12-05-2011, 10:32 PM
I don't get it why you guys are against Jurrjens becoming a Red.He's had three very solid season and is only 25 yrs old.There's only two guys in the Reds current rotation that has had the success Jurrjens has and most would prefer that one of those two are left out of the rotation going forward.He would be a clear upgrade imo.Maybe people are just worried about what Walt might give up for him.

Results are good and sometimes we do make the mistake of looking past them but the peripherals almost always tell the tale and his are mediocre for what his results say he is. Or in other words he is ready to become a #3 or 4 anytime. And if we pay for a #3 or #4 it's fine but if we don't that's a bummer.

757690
12-05-2011, 10:32 PM
I don't get all the Jurrjens hate.

He's not a true #1, but here are his career numbers:

50-33 W-L
3.40 ERA
120 ERA+
3.88 FIP
4.22 xFIP
1.98 K/BB
1.24 GB/FB
.73 HR/9

My only concern is that he lost velocity last season and was injured, but healthy, he's as good or better and more dependable than any Reds starter other than Cueto.

I agree that Alonso, Mes or Grandel for him would be too much, but Atlanta doesn't need a 1B or C, so I'm not too worried about them included is a deal, if a deal does happen.

The Operator
12-05-2011, 10:35 PM
My only concern is that he lost velocity last season and was injuredA loss of velocity is almost always a red flag.

I don't hate the guy, I just have a bad feeling that if The Reds do acquire him they're going to say "Check out our new rotation anchor!" and call it a day.

Jurrjens is a decent mid-rotation pitcher. But he's not an ace, and that's what The Reds need. Giving up any of the high value trading chips for him would be a huge mistake imo.

Joseph
12-05-2011, 10:37 PM
Jurrjens is a decent mid-rotation pitcher. But he's not an ace, and that's what The Reds need.


I agree 100%, however what Aces are available?

Mario-Rijo
12-05-2011, 10:37 PM
I don't get all the Jurrjens hate.

He's not a true #1, but here are his career numbers:

50-33 W-L
3.40 ERA
120 ERA+
3.88 FIP
4.22 xFIP
1.98 K/BB
1.24 GB/FB
.73 HR/9

My only concern is that he lost velocity last season and was injured, but healthy, he's as good or better and more dependable than any Reds starter other than Cueto.

I agree that Alonso, Mes or Grandel for him would be too much, but Atlanta doesn't need a 1B or C, so I'm not too worried about them included is a deal, if a deal does happen.

All good points but 6.2 K/9 says he isn't a legit #1 or #2 but I agree he should still be worth getting it's simply a matter of the return. Personally I am not a huge Alonso fan but I'm guessing most will think if it's him we lost. I'd be ok with him going personally which is why I am guessing the interest in Willingham has come up, either Heisey, Stubbs or Alonso is the centerpiece. And not sure Heisey has the cache to be the centerpiece (which IMO is good I like him). If it were me I'd deal Alonso for Jair, IMO it's a smart deal.

camisadelgolf
12-05-2011, 10:37 PM
He lost velocity on his fastball because he switched from a 4-seamer to a 2-seamer that was taught to him by Johnny Venters. He's a poor man's Matt Cain that would probably be a solid upgrade over someone in the rotation, but the big fear is what the Reds would need to give up to obtain him.

The Operator
12-05-2011, 10:41 PM
I agree 100%, however what Aces are available?Well, not many. But I'd rather not settle and trade important pieces for a guy who isn't going to push The Reds to the next level.

Shields is the guy I'd target. He's not quite an ace, but he's the closest thing to an ace currently on the market. He's a guy I'd pay a decent price for.

The Operator
12-05-2011, 10:43 PM
but the big fear is what the Reds would need to give up to obtain him.Exactly.

If the price is right, I'd be all for it. Because as you said he would upgrade the rotation to an extent. But I'm afraid The Reds would be trying to sell him as the shiny new #1 starter - which he certainly is not.

Captain Hook
12-05-2011, 10:46 PM
Results are good and sometimes we do make the mistake of looking past them but the peripherals almost always tell the tale and his are mediocre for what his results say he is. Or in other words he is ready to become a #3 or 4 anytime. And if we pay for a #3 or #4 it's fine but if we don't that's a bummer.

He would clearly be a #2 for the Reds.Coming off a year that his innings where somewhat limited due to issues unrelated to his arm I'd be willing to bet he won't regress.The Reds tend to play some defense as well and that wouldn't hurt.You could be right and he'll regress to what his peripherals suggest he is but I don't think the Reds can do a whole lot better and they must improve their starting pitching.This would go a long way toward doing just that.

Benihana
12-05-2011, 10:51 PM
Why would anyone go to GABP when everyone is in Dallas for the winter Meetings?

Sounds suspect to me.

Mario-Rijo
12-05-2011, 10:55 PM
He would clearly be a #2 for the Reds.Coming off a year that his innings where somewhat limited due to issues unrelated to his arm I'd be willing to bet he won't regress.The Reds tend to play some defense as well and that wouldn't hurt.You could be right and he'll regress to what his peripherals suggest he is but I don't think the Reds can do a whole lot better and they must improve their starting pitching.This would go a long way toward doing just that.

Just trying to throw out what I think the masses are thinking moreso. Myself I am on the fence about the K/9 because he keeps his walks down and keeps the ball down and in the park. If either of those start to go south a bit he is nothing special. My other personal concern is he is a FA after '13 and his agent is Boras so we better not overpay too much when we know we aren't gonna be able to keep him but bodes well for those of us who want a 2 year title run attempt.

757690
12-05-2011, 11:00 PM
Why would anyone go to GABP when everyone is in Dallas for the winter Meetings?

Sounds suspect to me.

And in this day and age, no real need to go to GABP to talk to anyone in media relations. Most journalism is done via the smartphone these days.

We'll see...

Reds/Flyers Fan
12-05-2011, 11:05 PM
Exactly.

If the price is right, I'd be all for it. Because as you said he would upgrade the rotation to an extent. But I'm afraid The Reds would be trying to sell him as the shiny new #1 starter - which he certainly is not.

Well, better Jurrjens than Edinson Volquez, who the Reds foolishly and insultingly tried to sell as the No. 1 starter last year.

dougdirt
12-05-2011, 11:07 PM
I like Lance.... but why would he, of all people, get a scoop over guys who cover the Reds daily and are actually in the same building as the Reds GM right now?

mattfeet
12-05-2011, 11:07 PM
I like Lance.... but why would he, of all people, get a scoop over guys who cover the Reds daily and are actually in the same building as the Reds GM right now?

Beats me. Just postin' what I read.

-Matt

Reds/Flyers Fan
12-05-2011, 11:19 PM
I like Lance.... but why would he, of all people, get a scoop over guys who cover the Reds daily and are actually in the same building as the Reds GM right now?

He's like the rest of us - simply excited that "Reds" and "trade" are being bandied about in the same sentence. We're so desperate to see this team do something - ANYTHING - to actively better itself. For me, I'll believe it when I see it. Too many "we thought we had a good offer" and "we like what we have" the last two and a half years to give this front office any benefit of the doubt. And Walt's wet blanket declaration during Redsfest that "this team is good enough to win the division right now" didn't exactly instill a ton of confidence in the fan base.

dougdirt
12-06-2011, 01:17 AM
He's like the rest of us - simply excited that "Reds" and "trade" are being bandied about in the same sentence. We're so desperate to see this team do something - ANYTHING - to actively better itself. For me, I'll believe it when I see it. Too many "we thought we had a good offer" and "we like what we have" the last two and a half years to give this front office any benefit of the doubt. And Walt's wet blanket declaration during Redsfest that "this team is good enough to win the division right now" didn't exactly instill a ton of confidence in the fan base.

There is a difference between wanting something to happen and saying it has happened and someone was on the way to a stadium for a press conference.

mth123
12-06-2011, 02:27 AM
I don't get all the Jurrjens hate.

He's not a true #1, but here are his career numbers:

50-33 W-L
3.40 ERA
120 ERA+
3.88 FIP
4.22 xFIP
1.98 K/BB
1.24 GB/FB
.73 HR/9

My only concern is that he lost velocity last season and was injured, but healthy, he's as good or better and more dependable than any Reds starter other than Cueto.

I agree that Alonso, Mes or Grandel for him would be too much, but Atlanta doesn't need a 1B or C, so I'm not too worried about them included is a deal, if a deal does happen.

But he's not dependable and that is the whole point. He had one season in 2009 where he threw 34 starts and 215 innings. Since then he's basicaly fallen apart with seasons of 20 starts 116.33 IP and 23 starts 152 IP. I'd agree that if healthy, he's one of the top 2 or 3 starters if the Reds had him, but the whole idea of acquiring some one to stabilize the rotation is exactly that. I don't see Jurrjens as much more than another question for the mix. Throw in a dash of GABP and I wonder if those peripherals will come back to haunt us. I like him, but if the Reds are going to create a hole somewhere else (say the middle of the order by dealing Alonso) I'd prefer some one without the added question marks (understanding that all pitchers have question marks). A guy like Wandy, for example, isn't as spectacular, but 30 starts every year with an ERA+ that is above average to pretty darned good, more fits my idea of stabilizing the rotation. I agree that Jurjjens is probably more likely to get it together and be an ace type, but I think a lot of what the Reds need to acquire is a limit on the downside.

corkedbat
12-06-2011, 02:44 AM
Wouldn't mind Jurjens as long as the price isn't too high and they aren't finished dealing. I'd want to add someone like Shields, Danks or Rodriguez too.

Will M
12-06-2011, 02:55 AM
Wouldn't mind Jurjens as long as the price isn't too high and they aren't finished dealing. I'd want to add someone like Shields, Danks or Rodriguez too.

thats what i thought. yet we don't really need Jurrgens if we got a strong starter.
1) Shields, Danks or Rodriguez
2) Cueto
3) Leake
4) Bailey
5) Arroyo (probably unmovable)

in this scenario the guy Jurrgens would replace is Bailey. I hesitate to give up on Bailey because he still has a high ceiling and because what i have read about Jurrgens gives me concern about his performance going forward. now if we could somehow turn Arroyo into a decent left fielder via a trade/salary swap then I'd be fine with Jurrgens replacing him in the rotation.

I suspect the reason the Reds are linked to Jurrgens is...wait for it...he's cheaper than the other options!

dunner13
12-06-2011, 08:03 AM
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/features/rumors/_/date/20111206#11763

Espn is reporting that the reds and rockies are talking about swapping Volquez for Street. They predict for the reds to take on streets 8 million dollar salary that the rockies would have to throw in a pitching prospect. I for one would do this deal in a heartbeat, especially if Walt is going to add another SP before the season starts. We need to clear out some of our surplus of mediocre starters and if we can trade one of them to get a solid closer I think its a good move.

Benihana
12-06-2011, 08:05 AM
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/features/rumors/_/date/20111206#11763

Espn is reporting that the reds and rockies are talking about swapping Volquez for Street. They predict for the reds to take on streets 8 million dollar salary that the rockies would have to throw in a pitching prospect. I for one would do this deal in a heartbeat, especially if Walt is going to add another SP before the season starts. We need to clear out some of our surplus of mediocre starters and if we can trade one of them to get a solid closer I think its a good move.

Using all of our pay flex on a closer is what concerns me about this deal, unless the prospect coming back is Drew Pomeranz. Which it won't be.

Slyder
12-06-2011, 08:14 AM
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/features/rumors/_/date/20111206#11763

Espn is reporting that the reds and rockies are talking about swapping Volquez for Street. They predict for the reds to take on streets 8 million dollar salary that the rockies would have to throw in a pitching prospect. I for one would do this deal in a heartbeat, especially if Walt is going to add another SP before the season starts. We need to clear out some of our surplus of mediocre starters and if we can trade one of them to get a solid closer I think its a good move.

So would I but I've not been that big of a EV fan.

dunner13
12-06-2011, 08:19 AM
EV is a huge wildcard, sure he could finally put it all together and have a great season but at this point the odds of that are not real great. The odds of Street being a better then average closer for us in 2012 are much better in my opinion. I do agree with Benihana though that the money does worry me, but with it being a one year deal maybe that gives Walt a little more flexibility with it.

Benihana
12-06-2011, 09:59 AM
Denver Post reports money is a hang up (as it should be) and the Reds want a A or AA pitcher in addition to Street. The best one down there is Chad Bettis. Tyler Anderson would be interesting, but he couldn't be dealt (named anyway) until the summer. Still I'd prefer Bettis, who posted strong numbers in the California League.

klw
12-06-2011, 10:05 AM
Per Mlbtraderumors Royals would listen on Soria for a young starting pitcher. Would Wood/Volquez for Soria do the trick and be preferable to Street? I imagine the Reds would need to sweeten the offer.

Strikes Out Looking
12-06-2011, 10:06 AM
Their are three options on Volquez:

1. Trade him -- the rumored deal on the table has him going to Col. for Huston Street. Volquez made $1.6 million last year and is arb-eligible. Even with the year he had, he'd still probably get at least $1.5 million. So adding Street's $7.5 million would be a net increase of $6 million in salary.

2. Cutting Volquez loose -- increase in money to Reds, nothing gotten for him.

3. Keep him. This keeps the experiment around one more year -- he could get his head straight and be very good or could be 2011 bad.

_Sir_Charles_
12-06-2011, 10:10 AM
I agree 100%, however what Aces are available?

Exactly. People need to get over that drooling over an ace thing. It ain't gonna happen, not right now. People here have been wanting an ace and dropping James Shields name as the guy. IMO, that's a joke. I see NO true aces available. Jocketty has said he's looking for a top of the rotation kind of guy. JJ is a ToR type of pitcher. A 2 or a very good 3 is a ToR pitcher. It doesn't have to be a #1.

Benihana
12-06-2011, 10:11 AM
Their are three options on Volquez:

1. Trade him -- the rumored deal on the table has him going to Col. for Huston Street. Volquez made $1.6 million last year and is arb-eligible. Even with the year he had, he'd still probably get at least $1.5 million. So adding Street's $7.5 million would be a net increase of $6 million in salary.

2. Cutting Volquez loose -- increase in money to Reds, nothing gotten for him.

3. Keep him. This keeps the experiment around one more year -- he could get his head straight and be very good or could be 2011 bad.

If we're picking up $6MM+ in salary, I'd prefer it to be a SP or a LF (assuming Alonso is dealt for a SP). Otherwise I want a top-notch pitching prospect coming back. I'd be more comfortable signing Beltran or trading for Shields, and letting an internal option or cheap FA take a shot at the closing gig.

_Sir_Charles_
12-06-2011, 10:16 AM
Well, not many. But I'd rather not settle and trade important pieces for a guy who isn't going to push The Reds to the next level.

Shields is the guy I'd target. He's not quite an ace, but he's the closest thing to an ace currently on the market. He's a guy I'd pay a decent price for.

2010 13-15 / 5.18 era / 203 ip / 187 k's / 51 bb / 34 hr
2009 11-12 / 4.14 era / 219 ip / 167 k's/ 52 bb / 29 hr

He's traditionally been a guy who give up alot of HR's (not a good fit for GABP), and his era is usually right around the 4.00 mark. That is nowhere CLOSE to an ACE imo. This past season looks like the aberration imo. It's also the worst time to trade for him too as his price is at an all-time high. Pass.

Kc61
12-06-2011, 10:26 AM
Games don't close themselves. I want the Reds to have a proven closer next year or an experienced set up man who seems ready to close games. I don't want to use Masset, Ondrusek and Bray and hope something works.

Looking at Street's numbers, he doesn't walk many guys and doesn't allow many homers. This is good for GABP. He may not be an elite closer and has had injuries, but I think he would suffice.

True, the trade would swap out to $6 million additional for Street, but keep in mind that Cordero would also be off the books. The closer spot would be much less expensive than last year.

If the Reds could get a prospect in the deal, or if they could get Colorado to pick up a bit more salary, I would favor it. As a straight swap with no prospect and no salary relief, it's a closer call. Would depend on what else is in the hopper.

klw
12-06-2011, 10:29 AM
Per Mlbtraderumors Royals would listen on Soria for a young starting pitcher. Would Wood/Volquez for Soria do the trick and be preferable to Street? I imagine the Reds would need to sweeten the offer.

Here is the Soria link
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/royals-rumors-soria-holland.html

The Royals are downplaying it, but they would trade closer Joakim Soria for a starting pitcher and would also discuss reliever Greg Holland, tweets Joel Sherman of the New York Post. Soria, 27, is potentially under contract through 2014. Holland is drawing interest from the Blue Jays and others after a breakout season. Either player would require a significant bounty.

_Sir_Charles_
12-06-2011, 10:29 AM
Games don't close themselves. I want the Reds to have a proven closer next year or an experienced set up man who seems ready to close games. I don't want to use Masset, Ondrusek and Bray and hope something works.

Looking at Street's numbers, he doesn't walk many guys and doesn't allow many homers. This is good for GABP. He may not be an elite closer and has had injuries, but I think he would suffice.

True, the trade would swap out to $6 million additional for Street, but keep in mind that Cordero would also be off the books. The closer spot would be much less expensive than last year.

If the Reds could get a prospect in the deal, or if they could get Colorado to pick up a bit more salary, I would favor it. As a straight swap with no prospect and no salary relief, it's a closer call. Would depend on what else is in the hopper.

+1

_Sir_Charles_
12-06-2011, 10:31 AM
Good ole' Harangatang just signed with the Dodgers for 2 years / 12 million.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/dodgers-harang-agree-to-two-year-deal.html

~edit~ Okay, NOW it's a done deal. :O)

mdccclxix
12-06-2011, 11:00 AM
The Royals seek a right-handed alternative to play third base and give Mike Moustakas an occasional break, GM Dayton Moore told Bob Dutton of the Kansas City Star. Casey Blake and Kevin Kouzmanoff are a couple of free agents who could fit the bill, in my opinion.

Start building a deal for Soria with Frazier.

Benihana
12-06-2011, 11:02 AM
Start building a deal for Soria with Frazier.

Agree but it would take a lot more than that. Frazier + Wood/Volquez + another piece might get them interested. While I prefer Soria to Street, especially considering the team options in 13 and 14, I still take issue with using our payflex on a closer before LF and SP.

_Sir_Charles_
12-06-2011, 11:09 AM
That Street for Volquez deal may have just taken a shot. Rockies just acquired Kevin Slowey.

RedsManRick
12-06-2011, 12:43 PM
Exactly. People need to get over that drooling over an ace thing. It ain't gonna happen, not right now. People here have been wanting an ace and dropping James Shields name as the guy. IMO, that's a joke. I see NO true aces available. Jocketty has said he's looking for a top of the rotation kind of guy. JJ is a ToR type of pitcher. A 2 or a very good 3 is a ToR pitcher. It doesn't have to be a #1.

Here's what bugs me about Jurrjens:



IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 HR/FB GB/FB BABIP ERA SIERA FIP xFIP
Player A 152 5.3 2.6 0.8 8.0% 1.15 .269 2.96 4.43 3.99 4.23
Player B 132 7.2 2.3 1.2 11.5% 1.03 .296 4.43 3.78 4.06 3.77

The ERA is a mostly a ruse. If we just regress his BABIP, he's a 3.90-4.00 ERA type guy. If we also regress his HR/FB, he's north of 4.00.

All of the other guys who seem to sustain a low HR/FB either strike out a lot more guys, walk fewer or pitch in a big home park.

Jurrjens would be a nice addition to the team. But to paint him as a TOR type guy while people (not necessarily you) treat Homer Bailey as a near washout just highlights the grass-is-greenerism that drives me nuts.

We, myself included, have a strong tendency to highlight our own players' flaws while ignoring or downplaying those of players on other teams we'd like to target. I've done the same with Shields.

At the end of the day, it simply reinforces for me the idea that it's silly to go out and trade valuable players for a reprise of talent we already have, but which has simply not put up the pretty ERA we'd like to see.

_Sir_Charles_
12-06-2011, 01:37 PM
Personally, I view Jurrjens as a very good #3 or a so-so #2. Either way, he'd be a solid addition to the rotation I'd think. As for Homer, I'm still VERY high on him. I'm not as worried about the nagging injuries as others seem to be and I'd not be shocked at all to see him put up a Cueto-like bump next season.

Personally, I'd like to see Volquez dealt off and if Bronson doesn't regain his form I'd like him pushed into the pen. Until that happens, Wood is in the pen. Chapman...I think he's in AAA for a good portion of the season.

Cueto, Bailey, Leake, Arroyo, Jurrjens. Arrange them as you see fit. Once Chapman's up, Bronson's in the pen. If Bronson tanks before Chapman's ready, Wood slides in. If the injury bug hits, we've got LeCure waiting in the wings and I'd hope we re-sign Willis to a minor league deal again.

Benihana
12-06-2011, 01:38 PM
The Nationals and Rays discussed center fielder B.J. Upton recently, tweets Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. Yesterday we heard the Rays would have to be overwhelmed to move Upton. The Nationals are "fixated" on leaving the Winter Meetings with a new center fielder, a team source told Pete Kerzel of MASNSports.com.

I'd explore a Heisey-for-Storen deal. Seems to make a lot of sense for both sides.

Kc61
12-06-2011, 02:00 PM
I find the Volquez rumor interesting because it provides a possible glimpse into the Reds' thinking.

If they are shopping EV and Alonso, I wonder how that impacts Homer Bailey. It could mean Homer will stay. I assumed the Reds would shop one or the other, V or Bailey, unlikely both.

On the other hand, if V goes for a reliever, it means a separate package will be offered for a starter. Alonso likely, but who else? Dusty said both young catchers will stay Reds.

Just find it interesting that V's name is out there, right from the start of the Winter Meetings.

757690
12-06-2011, 02:00 PM
Here's what bugs me about Jurrjens:



IP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 HR/FB GB/FB BABIP ERA SIERA FIP xFIP
Player A 152 5.3 2.6 0.8 8.0% 1.15 .269 2.96 4.43 3.99 4.23
Player B 132 7.2 2.3 1.2 11.5% 1.03 .296 4.43 3.78 4.06 3.77

The ERA is a mostly a ruse. If we just regress his BABIP, he's a 3.90-4.00 ERA type guy. If we also regress his HR/FB, he's north of 4.00.

All of the other guys who seem to sustain a low HR/FB either strike out a lot more guys, walk fewer or pitch in a big home park.

Jurrjens would be a nice addition to the team. But to paint him as a TOR type guy while people (not necessarily you) treat Homer Bailey as a near washout just highlights the grass-is-greenerism that drives me nuts.

We, myself included, have a strong tendency to highlight our own players' flaws while ignoring or downplaying those of players on other teams we'd like to target. I've done the same with Shields.

At the end of the day, it simply reinforces for me the idea that it's silly to go out and trade valuable players for a reprise of talent we already have, but which has simply not put up the pretty ERA we'd like to see.

if a guy puts up a shiny ERA over a four year period, over 700 innings and 100 starts, I could care less what his peripherals are. I'm judging him first and foremost on that shiny ERA. I would do my best to adjust it for ballpark effects, but otherwise, I conclude that his shiny ERA tells me who he is, and what to expect from him.

Will M
12-06-2011, 02:07 PM
Volquez for Seth Smith works better financially for the Reds. They still have all the payflex as well as Grandal, Alonso & a CF to trade for a starter and a reliever. Smith/RH bat would work fine for left field.

dunner13
12-06-2011, 02:53 PM
jayson stark is now reporting that the rockies are willing to eat all of streets salary if they can get prospects back in the deal.

Benihana
12-06-2011, 03:03 PM
jayson stark is now reporting that the rockies are willing to eat all of streets salary if they can get prospects back in the deal.

I'd rather move Heisey for Storen, but I'd do Volquez and a guy like LaMarre for Street if the Rockies covered the $$ difference.

Sea Ray
12-06-2011, 03:31 PM
Dodgers are apparently close on adding another ex-Red, Jerry Hairston Jr.

Looks like the Dodgers are acting like a small market team, dumpster diving

RANDY IN INDY
12-06-2011, 03:37 PM
I'd rather move Heisey for Storen, but I'd do Volquez and a guy like LaMarre for Street if the Rockies covered the $$ difference.

I would like that, as well. Has it been rumored or just a wish?

WVRedsFan
12-06-2011, 03:55 PM
From John Fay's Twitter page...a retweet

RT @joshreif saw a rumor of possible Volquez trade to Rockies for Street -- any truth? That mean bye bye CoCo?//Coco's bye-bye regardless

CarolinaRedleg
12-06-2011, 03:58 PM
Here's the link from Stark

http://twitter.com/#!/jaysonst/statuses/144140107216195584

Scrap Irony
12-06-2011, 04:18 PM
/Coco's bye-bye regardless

That's certainly interesting to see.

And, potentially, a move that could blow up big-time.

If all else is equal, always go with talent. Is this a case of ignoring talent and focusing on results that may be skewed due to chance and injury?

Benihana
12-06-2011, 04:34 PM
I would like that, as well. Has it been rumored or just a wish?

Nationals are rumored to be dead-set on acquiring their CF this week, and talks have centered around Storen for Upton. Rays are reportedly hesitant to trade Upton, Angels won't trade Burjous and the Mets are hanging onto Pagan, so I'd swoop in now.

As far as Heisey specifically, that is just my wish at this point.

corkedbat
12-06-2011, 07:34 PM
Nationals are rumored to be dead-set on acquiring their CF this week, and talks have centered around Storen for Upton. Rays are reportedly hesitant to trade Upton, Angels won't trade Burjous and the Mets are hanging onto Pagan, so I'd swoop in now.

As far as Heisey specifically, that is just my wish at this point.

- I'd give the Nats their pick of Stubbs, Heisey or Sappelt for Storen

- The Dodgers reportedly gave JHairston $6M per (I hope that's total for 2 or 3 years - ridiculous if there is any truth to it)

- if the Fish give Poo Holes 10 years @ $30M per, the Reds better put JV on the market now and mximize the return. I can just hear Joey's agent now, "Yeah we'll give the Reds a big home town discount - only $25M per for ten years. That is $50M less than Albert - it's a great deal." No Thanks. The Reds should not be paying anyone $20M a season anytime soon.

- If Yonder has lost 15-20 lbs. that's great I guess, but you have to wonder why a young pro athlete, eager to make the show and stick, would have 15-20 lbs. to lose in the first place.

- I'd love to have Seth Smith for Volquez.

mth123
12-06-2011, 09:09 PM
Volquez for Seth Smith works better financially for the Reds. They still have all the payflex as well as Grandal, Alonso & a CF to trade for a starter and a reliever. Smith/RH bat would work fine for left field.

Nice idea. I like Seth Smith a lot. Unfortunately, I suspect that the Rockies interest in a Volquez Lottery Ticket is mostly from its desire to dump Street's salary. I doubt there would be interest without the cost savings.

Kc61
12-06-2011, 10:07 PM
Mets acquired three decent relievers tonight. Rauch, Francisco, Ramirez.

Giants have been active. Lots of free agency rumors for non-Reds teams.

Jocketty reported via Fay that today was quiet for the Reds.

Deja vu all over again.

Well, maybe the trade deadline, that's a better time to deal, right? LoL.

corkedbat
12-06-2011, 10:33 PM
Mets acquired three decent relievers tonight. Rauch, Francisco, Ramirez.

Giants have been active. Lots of free agency rumors for non-Reds teams.

Jocketty reported via Fay that today was quiet for the Reds.

Deja vu all over again.

Well, maybe the trade deadline, that's a better time to deal, right? LoL.

Gotta feel there's a lot of smoke - no fire again. Hi Pat! Mind if we stands witchoo? 2010 was 1999 all over again. Sniff of the playoffs the nothing to improve the team. Can't wait until about 2022 or so for another sniff

757690
12-06-2011, 10:50 PM
The winter meetings aren't even half over, and people already are giving up on the Reds?

Awesome :laugh:

corkedbat
12-06-2011, 11:55 PM
The winter meetings aren't even half over, and people already are giving up on the Reds?

Awesome :laugh:

Reverse psychology. :D

mattfeet
12-07-2011, 07:22 AM
Thoughts on Michael Cuddyer? Im sure the Twins will make it attractive for him to return, but I think he'd be a good fit. Could spell 3rd/1B, as well as the corner OF's in a pinch. RH bat, which Walt has been on record saying he's after (i.e., Josh Willingham), so I can see it making sense.

-Matt

dunner13
12-07-2011, 08:33 AM
Im starting to wonder if it might be better for Walt to not make a deal at the winter meetings, it seems like the price for SPs is very high. And were talking about guys that are probably no better then #2's (danks, gio) I mean if we have to give up alonso, grandal plus another prospect to get John Danks is it really worth it? Maybe as the meetings get closer to ending the price on some of these pitchers will come down to reality.

Kc61
12-07-2011, 08:54 AM
Im starting to wonder if it might be better for Walt to not make a deal at the winter meetings, it seems like the price for SPs is very high. And were talking about guys that are probably no better then #2's (danks, gio) I mean if we have to give up alonso, grandal plus another prospect to get John Danks is it really worth it? Maybe as the meetings get closer to ending the price on some of these pitchers will come down to reality.

Usually, after the first three days, the meetings are basically over except for the Rule V draft. It's possible you can see trades on Thursday, but today is basically the last day of action. Then, of course, after the meetings the teams can still make deals and often do.

When discussing trades, folks must understand that proven major league pitching is worth a premium. And unproven prospects are valued at a discount.

You can't talk about trading guys like Alonso and Grandal as if they were major league stars. They aren't. They are good prospects but there is a risk factor involved with prospects.

So the Reds have to decide whether they want to "let it ride" on prospects or get some more proven players in.

If the Reds are waiting for some major market shift, I think they will not be active.

The price will go down on some of the free agents, who may not have a big market and who will have to lower their price to get a team. On the trade market, for pitchers like Shields, Gonzalez, etc., there is no urgency to trade them and I think their teams will continue to ask for a lot.

redsmetz
12-07-2011, 09:10 AM
Im starting to wonder if it might be better for Walt to not make a deal at the winter meetings, it seems like the price for SPs is very high. And were talking about guys that are probably no better then #2's (danks, gio) I mean if we have to give up alonso, grandal plus another prospect to get John Danks is it really worth it? Maybe as the meetings get closer to ending the price on some of these pitchers will come down to reality.

I think this has been the difficulty in recent trade talks is that the other clubs have asked for our prime prospects to get lower grade upgrades. Upgrades yes, but not at the price asked. Now conversely, we have a glut of talent that can be pieces and it's frustrating that we seem to be unable to pull the trigger on anything. Of course, I'm not advocating making a trade simply to make a trade. It was a bit frustrating to see some of our previous surplus go without converting it into anything at all, save whatever cash we get for a waiver claim (I'm thinking of Matt Maloney as one example - a player other regimes would have moved rather than just lose him to a waiver claim).

But I'm not interested in getting hosed for a slight upgrade to the rotation.

Dan
12-07-2011, 09:15 AM
There's only one deal that would really make sense for the Reds right now, and that's Votto for Price. Premium player for premium pitcher. No way do you get Price for Alonso+parts.

Benihana
12-07-2011, 09:28 AM
If "everyone is looking for starting pitching" as Walt says, perhaps now would be a savvy time to shop Bronson Arroyo. Yes, I know he's owed a lot of deferred money, but perhaps a big market team is willing to take that on for a veteran with playoff experience.

Regardless of whether they trade Arroyo, the Reds will still need to acquire a frontline starter, but freeing up that money may allow them a lot more flexibility in getting that arm as well as signing a bat for LF (not to mention a closer). Or of course, Hanley Ramirez.

Frontline Starter (Shields/Garza etc.)
Cueto
Leake
Bailey
Wood/Chapman

with a lineup of

Phillips 2B
Stubbs/Heisey CF
Votto 1B
Beltran LF
Bruce RF
Cozart SS
Mesoraco C
Rolen 3B

RedEye
12-07-2011, 09:37 AM
Not sure I saw this posted here. Bowden reports that Alonso's name has come up in talks with Rays about a SP.

https://twitter.com/#!/JimBowdenESPNxm/status/144143482808827905

Sure hope it's Shields!

TRF
12-07-2011, 09:54 AM
The only way i'd want Alonso traded is for Shields. period. otherwise this offense will be sick with him in LF, improvement from SS with Cozart and I expect much better from Stubbs in CF if he's batting 7th. which he will with BP leading off.

But...

If Alonso, Wood and another piece fetch Shields, I'm down.

RedEye
12-07-2011, 09:54 AM
There is a confusing split between the two Hot Stove threads right now. Any way we can consolidate them or make the distinction clearer? I keep having to jockey between them to make sure I'm not reposting, but then missing comments anyway b/c of the general uncertainty about what goes where.

dunner13
12-07-2011, 09:56 AM
I realize that alonso isnt worth a #1 starting pitcher but trading 2 or 3 of our top players should get us something better then John Danks. At this point I would be thrilled with an Alonso for Wade Davis trade.

RedEye
12-07-2011, 09:56 AM
The only way i'd want Alonso traded is for Shields. period. otherwise this offense will be sick with him in LF, improvement from SS with Cozart and I expect much better from Stubbs in CF if he's batting 7th. which he will with BP leading off.

But...

If Alonso, Wood and another piece fetch Shields, I'm down.

Agreed. Shields should be the target if possible. Wade Davis or Jeff Niemann would just add to our growing stable of 3/4 type pitchers and we're better off letting Yonder play for a year and seeing what he can do.

RedEye
12-07-2011, 09:59 AM
The only way i'd want Alonso traded is for Shields. period. otherwise this offense will be sick with him in LF, improvement from SS with Cozart and I expect much better from Stubbs in CF if he's batting 7th. which he will with BP leading off.

But...

If Alonso, Wood and another piece fetch Shields, I'm down.

Shields is controlled for three more years at a reasonable price. I think it would take a pretty nice other piece in your equation -- like Alonso, Wood and Grandal or Alonso, Bailey and Hamilton.

mattfeet
12-07-2011, 10:05 AM
Take Cuddyer off the list. Looks like he's going to agree to a 3-yr deal back with the Twins.

-Matt

thatcoolguy_22
12-07-2011, 10:30 AM
There is a confusing split between the two Hot Stove threads right now. Any way we can consolidate them or make the distinction clearer? I keep having to jockey between them to make sure I'm not reposting, but then missing comments anyway b/c of the general uncertainty about what goes where.

Everything in the News Thread can be in here. Just keep the discussion out of the news thread. Repost away in here though.

Basically, if someone doesn't have time to sift through 100+ posts to find the one nugget that Alonso has been dangled for Shields or whatever, they can just look in the news thread and be up to date.

I'm hoping the mods erase all the discussion posts entirely in the thread because its a chore trying to catch up when I wake up after the dealing day is complete. I just want the meat of what happened or could have happened, not the debate over whether adding Wood to a deal means we gave up too much.

mattfeet
12-07-2011, 10:37 AM
I'm hoping the mods erase all the discussion posts entirely in the thread because its a chore trying to catch up when I wake up after the dealing day is complete. I just want the meat of what happened or could have happened, not the debate over whether adding Wood to a deal means we gave up too much.

Done. :beerme:

mdccclxix
12-07-2011, 11:02 AM
9:59am: The Padres are very close to getting Street from the Rockies, tweets Danny Knobler of CBS Sports.

Why?

mdccclxix
12-07-2011, 11:09 AM
Oh wait, I get it: Street to SD, Latos and Street to CIN for Hamilton, Corcino and Francisco. :beerme:

Benihana
12-07-2011, 11:16 AM
Street traded to SD for a minor leaguer to be named later. SD will pay most of Street's $8MM salary.

I guess Volquez's value = a minor leaguer to be named later.

LoganBuck
12-07-2011, 11:21 AM
Jocketty continues to sit on his hands. Make some moves to fix this team