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View Full Version : Reds; Take Note From The Marlins



RedLegSuperStar
11-09-2011, 06:39 PM
The Miami Marlins are in on what seems like everybody this offseason and are going all in. They are going after a 3rd Championship in 15 years. The Reds Have only had one playoff appearance in that time. Who's committed to winning? I know the Reds are building within and drafting and doing things the cheap way but by not adding to this team in 2 years then this team really has to ask it self it it truly wants to bring winning baseball back to Cincinnati. Joey Votto will be a free agent soon and the time to build on this club is now. It's truly beating a dead horse but sometimes you got to either produce on your promises or stop promising.

Vottomatic
11-09-2011, 06:47 PM
"We're simply not going to lose anymore" - Bob Castellini when firing Wayne Krivsky

Tom Servo
11-09-2011, 07:42 PM
Let's not start anointing Loria and the Marlins saints, they haven't actually done anything yet.

edabbs44
11-09-2011, 08:44 PM
Let's not start anointing Loria and the Marlins saints, they haven't actually done anything yet.

Seriously.

RedLegSuperStar
11-09-2011, 09:20 PM
Seriously.

They haven't? They've gotten me excited about Marlins baseball. They've got me interested in who they are perusing. The have a new name, look, and stadium. They are getting there players excited about potential free agents. They are getting their manager in full recruit mode.

I'm a Reds fan first and foremost but if this team isn't going to improve then I got to just be a baseball fan.

Chip R
11-09-2011, 11:34 PM
They haven't? They've gotten me excited about Marlins baseball. They've got me interested in who they are perusing. The have a new name, look, and stadium. They are getting there players excited about potential free agents. They are getting their manager in full recruit mode.

And eventually they will sell off those players just like they did before.

Patrick Bateman
11-10-2011, 12:34 AM
They haven't? They've gotten me excited about Marlins baseball. They've got me interested in who they are perusing. The have a new name, look, and stadium. They are getting there players excited about potential free agents. They are getting their manager in full recruit mode.

I'm a Reds fan first and foremost but if this team isn't going to improve then I got to just be a baseball fan.

I think edabbs was alluding to actual things that people care about.

Getting you to care based on turning the wheel to start-up the rumour mill isn't actually doing anything.

The Cubs did that 5 years ago and rued the day.

The Reds have issues, and there are far easier ways to criticize them rather than putting them down because another team is out rumouring the Reds 52-0.

klw
11-10-2011, 08:57 AM
They haven't? They've gotten me excited about Marlins baseball. They've got me interested in who they are perusing. The have a new name, look, and stadium. They are getting there players excited about potential free agents. They are getting their manager in full recruit mode.

I'm a Reds fan first and foremost but if this team isn't going to improve then I got to just be a baseball fan.

On a related note today the Cincinnati Reds have announced a press conference for 3:30 this afternoon. At the conference, the Reds will announce a change in their name to the the Hamilton County Redlegs. Their new uni's will be softball compression shorts worn over red lycra tights and the tops will be loose cotton t-shirts with flashdance width necks and cut off sleeves.

westofyou
11-10-2011, 10:12 AM
The Marlins??

Envy?

Lessons to learn from them?

Laughable

Always Red
11-10-2011, 10:52 AM
They haven't? They've gotten me excited about Marlins baseball. They've got me interested in who they are perusing. The have a new name, look, and stadium. They are getting there players excited about potential free agents. They are getting their manager in full recruit mode.

I'm a Reds fan first and foremost but if this team isn't going to improve then I got to just be a baseball fan.

Sounds like their off season marketing plan to sell season ticket packages to the locals is working just fine here in Ohio!

PuffyPig
11-10-2011, 11:36 AM
It's truly beating a dead horse but sometimes you got to either produce on your promises or stop promising.

Get back to us when the Marlins actually "produce on their promises".

TRF
11-10-2011, 12:43 PM
Marlins 1997 WS Champs
Marlins 2003 WS Champs

Reds 1997 3rd in Central Division
Reds 2003 5th in Central Division

hmmm. perhaps the marlins know SOMETHING. They aren't perfect, but they do seem to have a model for recycling success. And that team is on the cusp of success again. Stanton, Morrison, Hanley and add Reyes, that's a solid offensive core. Put Bonifacio in CF, he's your leadoff hitter. The rotation needs some health, and maybe one more starter. They can contend in the NL East.

As for learning, how about this, you move into a new stadium, you get a new name and look, you make a big FA splash. Seems like a plan to me.

Caveman Techie
11-10-2011, 12:45 PM
A long time ago, in the time of leatherpants. The Reds were involved in a lot of rumors. Nothing ever really came of them though except for disappointment and I for one don't want to return to those days.

As for the Marlins, being involved in rumors and actually landing the free agents are two totally different things.

westofyou
11-10-2011, 02:38 PM
Marlins 1997 WS Champs
Marlins 2003 WS Champs

Reds 1997 3rd in Central Division
Reds 2003 5th in Central Division

hmmm. perhaps the marlins know SOMETHING. They aren't perfect, but they do seem to have a model for recycling success. And that team is on the cusp of success again. Stanton, Morrison, Hanley and add Reyes, that's a solid offensive core. Put Bonifacio in CF, he's your leadoff hitter. The rotation needs some health, and maybe one more starter. They can contend in the NL East.

As for learning, how about this, you move into a new stadium, you get a new name and look, you make a big FA splash. Seems like a plan to me.


How many rings does Loria have? And how many franchises has he trashed?

Reds/Flyers Fan
11-10-2011, 02:42 PM
And eventually they will sell off those players just like they did before.

With yet another trophy in the trophy case.

I'd take that tradeoff.

MikeS21
11-10-2011, 03:13 PM
About the ONLY thing about the Marlins I wish the Reds would look into is their farm system and player development. But this point, I'm not even sure THAT is superior to the Reds anymore.

TRF
11-10-2011, 03:18 PM
How many rings does Loria have? And how many franchises has he trashed?

no doubt, but i think he was owner in 2003.

And it is possible he's put in place some people that can teach him. It just seems like this is the right direction for the Marlins.

Unassisted
11-10-2011, 03:51 PM
"We're simply not going to lose anymore" - Bob Castellini when firing Wayne KrivskySometime between the 2010 and 2011 seasons that became "We're simply not going to lose MONEY anymore."

Forget about the Reds going all-in on free agents. Last season showed that this ownership group isn't wired that way.

westofyou
11-10-2011, 04:04 PM
no doubt, but i think he was owner in 2003.

And it is possible he's put in place some people that can teach him. It just seems like this is the right direction for the Marlins.

John Henry was the owner.

Loria drive the O' s price into the stratosphere, killed the Expos and persides over a franchise that is universally thought of as a joke.

Don't see it at all

westofyou
11-10-2011, 04:30 PM
TRF you were right Loria got the control of the Marlins in 2002, I was incorrect, still don't see him as a guy to envy though

TRF
11-10-2011, 05:00 PM
the only reason i remembered that was I think Loria designed their WS rings.

And I didn't say envy per se, but this is a plan the Reds should have followed when GABP opened, with a slant towards pitching.

If they get Reyes, that is a more than solid offense. Bonafacio and Reyes make a very good 1-2 punch at the top of the order. Then Hanley, Stanton, Sanchez. The rotation I think gets maybe a little better. Vasquez retires, but a full year of Johnson. They need another starter. If they get one, they can make a run.

The Operator
11-10-2011, 05:43 PM
They haven't? They've gotten me excited about Marlins baseball.
Talk to some former Montreal Expo fans about Jeff Loria and David Samson. See what they have to say.

Vottomatic
11-10-2011, 07:33 PM
Sometime between the 2010 and 2011 seasons that became "We're simply not going to lose MONEY anymore."

Forget about the Reds going all-in on free agents. Last season showed that this ownership group isn't wired that way.

Well said.

I definitely think Castellini may have realized he's in over his head from the money side of it.

And he probably expected more of a spike in attendance than he got this year.

But should he have? One good season and he expects the fans to return in droves?

They sat on their hands last offseason and appear to be ready to do so again this offseason. If they do, I see attendance dropping off because of the turn off.

RFS62
11-11-2011, 07:00 AM
Talk to some former Montreal Expo fans about Jeff Loria and David Samson. See what they have to say.


No kidding

TRF
11-11-2011, 09:16 AM
Talk to some former Montreal Expo fans about Jeff Loria and David Samson. See what they have to say.

The strike did just as much damage.

mdccclxix
11-11-2011, 02:10 PM
Thank you Marlins for at least showing signs of driving up the price on Pujols.

mdccclxix
11-11-2011, 02:19 PM
It must be fun to be a Marlins fan right now, they can dream big. The lineup construction would be fun.

Reyes
Ramirez
Pujols
Stanton

15fan
11-11-2011, 10:06 PM
Thank you Marlins for at least showing signs of driving up the price on Pujols.

This.

Brutus
11-11-2011, 10:17 PM
Completely different situation. I'm as frustrated as anyone, but the Marlins are literally projected to add another $20-30 million to their revenue on account of getting out of the awful stadium lease they were in and into a new ballpark. That's the reason why they're now making a splash in free agency.

RedLegSuperStar
11-11-2011, 11:23 PM
Completely different situation. I'm as frustrated as anyone, but the Marlins are literally projected to add another $20-30 million to their revenue on account of getting out of the awful stadium lease they were in and into a new ballpark. That's the reason why they're now making a splash in free agency.

Don't forget as for the players.. think of the savings they encounter without having to pay taxes on that money.. example: LeBron James and Chris Bosh w/ the Miami Heat

Mario-Rijo
11-14-2011, 08:44 PM
Well said.

I definitely think Castellini may have realized he's in over his head from the money side of it.

And he probably expected more of a spike in attendance than he got this year.

But should he have? One good season and he expects the fans to return in droves?

They sat on their hands last offseason and appear to be ready to do so again this offseason. If they do, I see attendance dropping off because of the turn off.

They have tried the conservative approach now it's time to go all Milwaukee for a change. Gotta give it to the Brew Crew they want to win bottom line. They proved it going after C.C. a few years ago which resulted in a playoff appearance and they did it again dealing for Grienke this past offseason which put them just shy of the World Series, another recent milestone. Now if they lose Fielder and take a dip for a few years they have built up some serious excitement and good will for the foreseeable future.

camisadelgolf
11-15-2011, 12:33 AM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/ramirez-not-open-to-change-positions.html?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed

Marlins shortstop Hanley Ramirez is not at all pleased about the prospect of changing positions if the team signs Jose Reyes, a source tells Clark Spencer of the Miami Herald (via Twitter).

mattfeet
11-15-2011, 09:55 AM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/ramirez-not-open-to-change-positions.html?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed

Of course he's not. :lol:

In other news, Marlins offered Reyes 6yr $90mil.

-Matt

westofyou
12-04-2011, 03:06 PM
Taking notes from the Marlin's just got more interesting

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-passan_marlins_sec_stadium_malfeasance_120211



The Security and Exchange Commission on Thursday launched guided warheads at the Marlins, requesting the team’s financial records, communications with MLB officials including commissioner Bud Selig, minutes of meetings with local government leaders and political campaign-contribution information, according to a report in the Miami Herald.

While the subpoenas issued by the SEC do not explicitly detail the purpose of the investigation, the feds’ motives are evident: They want to understand how, exactly, a group of county commissioners agreed to fund 80 percent of the Marlins new stadium, which cost more than $600 million, without ever seeing the team’s financial records – and whether bribes had anything to do with it

RFS62
12-04-2011, 03:10 PM
Taking notes from the Marlin's just got more interesting

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-passan_marlins_sec_stadium_malfeasance_120211


What? A bribe involving Miami-Dade government?

Inconceivable!!!

westofyou
12-04-2011, 03:12 PM
What? A bribe involving Miami-Dade government?

Inconceivable!!!

Unpossible

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/14/Ralph_Wiggum.png/212px-Ralph_Wiggum.png

Vottomatic
12-04-2011, 05:02 PM
Taking notes from the Marlin's just got more interesting

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-passan_marlins_sec_stadium_malfeasance_120211

I hope it scares some players away.

RedLegSuperStar
12-04-2011, 07:24 PM
Marlins up the Anti on one Jose Reyes to the tone of 111 Million over 6 years. Also Miami is the favorite to land Pujols if St. Louis does not. All per MLBTradeRumors.com

RedLegSuperStar
12-04-2011, 07:24 PM
Hey.. but the Reds are promoting David Bell and hiring Jim Riggleman! #Winning

mattfeet
12-04-2011, 08:44 PM
Marlins up the Anti on one Jose Reyes to the tone of 111 Million over 6 years. Also Miami is the favorite to land Pujols if St. Louis does not. All per MLBTradeRumors.com

And they've also made a substantial offer to Buehrle. Could be one heck of an off-season for the Marlins.

-Matt

RedsManRick
12-04-2011, 09:28 PM
Heyman on Twitter:

those who claimed the #marlins were engaging in a publicity stunt can now take it back. reyes is about to become a fish.

edabbs44
12-04-2011, 10:02 PM
And they've also made a substantial offer to Buehrle. Could be one heck of an off-season for the Marlins.

-Matt

Great offseasons do not automatically translate to great on seasons.

RedLegSuperStar
12-04-2011, 10:13 PM
Reyes is a Marlin. 106 mil for 6 years

HeatherC1212
12-04-2011, 10:27 PM
How are they planning to afford Reyes and any other FAs they get this offseason in addition to their current players??! That's a lot of money. :eek:

dougdirt
12-04-2011, 10:39 PM
How are they planning to afford Reyes and any other FAs they get this offseason in addition to their current players??! That's a lot of money. :eek:

New stadium, lots of butts in the seats, winning.

Tom Servo
12-05-2011, 08:47 AM
New stadium, lots of butts in the seats, winning.
Tell the Dolphins about butts in seats.

traderumor
12-05-2011, 12:11 PM
New stadium, lots of butts in the seats, winning.you left out "bribe local politicians" before "New stadium"

TRF
12-05-2011, 05:16 PM
Yes, the Reds and Bengals stadium deals were completely above board, no controversy whatsoever.

Cedric
12-05-2011, 06:18 PM
The Miami Marlins are in on what seems like everybody this offseason and are going all in. They are going after a 3rd Championship in 15 years. The Reds Have only had one playoff appearance in that time. Who's committed to winning? I know the Reds are building within and drafting and doing things the cheap way but by not adding to this team in 2 years then this team really has to ask it self it it truly wants to bring winning baseball back to Cincinnati. Joey Votto will be a free agent soon and the time to build on this club is now. It's truly beating a dead horse but sometimes you got to either produce on your promises or stop promising.

I'm resigned to the fact that the Reds FO is ok with mediocrity. I just love the game and enjoy drinking a beer out in the moon deck. I don't expect them to really compete for a WS in my lifetime.

Just the way it is.

savafan
12-05-2011, 10:02 PM
Jon Heyman just tweeted that Miami may increase payroll to upwards of $100 million. How can they get away with this?

Reds/Flyers Fan
12-05-2011, 11:12 PM
New stadium, lots of butts in the seats, winning.

Perhaps the Reds should have taken this road a decade ago. Winning = butts in the seats. A new ballpark really doesn't do much after the first year novelty wears off.

mattfeet
12-06-2011, 09:04 AM
Miami has also upped their offer to Pujols. Not sure on $ yet.

-Matt

RedsManRick
12-06-2011, 12:45 PM
Jon Heyman just tweeted that Miami may increase payroll to upwards of $100 million. How can they get away with this?

They've been profitable for years on the back of revenue sharing and a low payroll. Maybe they've been putting that money in a "once we have a stadium that will support recurring revenues" fund they're finally prepared to tap.

traderumor
12-06-2011, 01:43 PM
They've been profitable for years on the back of revenue sharing and a low payroll. Maybe they've been putting that money in a "once we have a stadium that will support recurring revenues" fund they're finally prepared to tap.and bribed/cajoled local politicians, who now have been booted out of office and a bond issue for the stadium is being investigated for shenanigans by the SEC. Everyone keeps leaving that part out ;)

oregonred
12-06-2011, 01:53 PM
Insane really. No evidence of a sustainable local fan base in South Florida, especially given the walled off location down in Little Havana to the Northern Counties. They will be back to 25K per game or less within three years. Weekends will do well, weeknights will be 20K max. Even with Marino, the Dolphins often struggled to sell out.

Now, TV dollars could be another thing. Imagine Pujols could enable the Marlins to get closer to a Rangers type TV deal.

Luria selling the team w/ Pujols markup in a couple years makes the most sense as an exit strategy.

vaticanplum
12-06-2011, 05:12 PM
I'm resigned to the fact that the Reds FO is ok with mediocrity. I just love the game and enjoy drinking a beer out in the moon deck. I don't expect them to really compete for a WS in my lifetime.

Just the way it is.

Then the Reds fall into the elite category of teams and fans who are cool with losing, like the Cubs. Could you really live with yourself as part of that world?

Cedric
12-06-2011, 11:09 PM
Then the Reds fall into the elite category of teams and fans who are cool with losing, like the Cubs. Could you really live with yourself as part of that world?

What can I do? Boycott? I just think a lot of my optimism was sapped after the debacle Walt put Reds fans through last year. I have almost zero faith in him.

Ghosts of 1990
12-06-2011, 11:10 PM
With yet another trophy in the trophy case.

I'd take that tradeoff.

And Mike Stanton through the best years of his career.

Basically it would be like arming Bruce with that type of Nucleus along with keeping a few other young bucks that have came up through your system, gearing up, winning it all; and sure maybe moving those large contract pieces but your homegrown talent likely remains throughout the run.

Yachtzee
12-06-2011, 11:22 PM
Don't worry. After the season, Loria will turn around and sell off anyone of value and go back to running the team on the cheap in no time. That's his MO. I doubt anyone the Marlins sign to big contracts this offseason will be with the team in two years.

mdccclxix
12-07-2011, 10:35 AM
I gotta say, if this thing comes together, I'll be rooting for the Marlins in the playoffs. They may be the Washington Redskins, or they may still be the Marlins, the team that bought and sold a championship in 1997 as well. From a fan's point of view, you just wish your teams billionaire owners would flip out like this. C'mon Bob, flip out would ya? Go bananas, or whatever.

Tom Servo
07-23-2012, 11:59 PM
So anybody here hungry for some crow?

camisadelgolf
07-24-2012, 12:09 AM
And eventually they will sell off those players just like they did before.
Points to Chip for this one.

Homer Bailey
07-24-2012, 12:16 AM
Well said.

I definitely think Castellini may have realized he's in over his head from the money side of it.

And he probably expected more of a spike in attendance than he got this year.

But should he have? One good season and he expects the fans to return in droves?

They sat on their hands last offseason and appear to be ready to do so again this offseason. If they do, I see attendance dropping off because of the turn off.

Wowzas

oregonred
07-24-2012, 12:33 AM
Miami sports radio is brutal when the local teams struggle, but entertaining when you aren't really a fan of the local teams. The Marlins attendance, or lack thereof, was already a source of discussion a month ago.

Looks like some dirt cheap primo seats to check out the new digs for the Reds series in Sept :)

Captain Hook
07-24-2012, 12:41 AM
Wowzas

There's much more crow to eat in all of the "Reds will never be able to sign Votto to a LTC" threads.

oneupper
07-24-2012, 04:45 AM
Looks like some dirt cheap primo seats to check out the new digs for the Reds series in Sept :)

Hey, I'm up for it. Maybe Redeye will join us.

RedEye
07-24-2012, 09:16 AM
I'm really up for it! Planning to take my 3 year-old son to his first Reds game, too.

Chip R
07-24-2012, 09:17 AM
Points to Chip for this one.

Can't take credit for the sun coming up in the east.

RedEye
07-24-2012, 09:18 AM
Perhaps for one game in the series we could have a mini RZ get-together (it can be a different one than the one my kid is with me for ... he's a handful) :)

Homer Bailey
07-24-2012, 10:01 AM
There's much more crow to eat in all of the "Reds will never be able to sign Votto to a LTC" threads.

Ha, to be fair, that was a pretty big upset in my opinion. Not many of us were able to see that coming.

RedlegJake
07-24-2012, 02:29 PM
I admit the Votto one. I hoped they would but really, really doubted it. I expected Votto to get traded to tell the truth. SO load my crow with plenty of BBQ sauce please. And this is a dish of crow I'm loving!

mdccclxix
07-24-2012, 02:44 PM
The Marlins and Orioles are discussing trade scenarios, Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe reports (on Twitter). Miami is "knee deep" in trade talks and could complete a blockbuster in the next 24 hours, Jim Bowden of ESPN.com and MLB Network Radio reports (on Twitter).

The Marlins, who sent Anibal Sanchez and Omar Infante to Detroit yesterday, have also had teams inquire on Hanley Ramirez, Carlos Lee, Josh Johnson,Ricky Nolasco and Randy Choate. The Orioles are known to be seeking pitching and corner infield help. It wouldn't be surprising to see Baltimore pursue Ramirez or Johnson, since either player would have an impact in 2012 and on next year's team.

I think the buy low potential on Hanley is something many never saw coming. Now is the time to consummate what was always meant to be: Hanley to the Reds for Cody Puckett and Mark Serrano.

Just kidding. Seems funny that this year's team looks like it doesn't have room for Hanley. I'm not sure Cozart's defense doesn't offset Hanley's offense.

PuffyPig
07-24-2012, 02:46 PM
I think no one should feel ashamed about thinking Votto would eventually be gone.

But jumping on the Marlins bandwagon as soon as they started talking to some FA's was for many posters simply another opportunity to give the Reds and their management a shot.

PuffyPig
07-24-2012, 02:47 PM
IJust kidding. Seems funny that this year's team looks like it doesn't have room for Hanley. I'm not sure Cozart's defense doesn't offset Hanley's offense.

And certainly not his salary.

Brutus
07-24-2012, 02:54 PM
I think the buy low potential on Hanley is something many never saw coming. Now is the time to consummate what was always meant to be: Hanley to the Reds for Cody Puckett and Mark Serrano.

Just kidding. Seems funny that this year's team looks like it doesn't have room for Hanley. I'm not sure Cozart's defense doesn't offset Hanley's offense.

Well, it's interesting because statistically speaking, Cozart is ahead of Hanley by .2 WAR by Fangraphs' measure. Even if we account for margin of error, we could call it a draw.

I do wonder, though, if Hanley being moved back to shortstop would get him back in the right frame of mind and get his production back closer to pre-2010 levels. Even if Hanley is back to being the upgrade we'd expect, one wonders if it would be enough to justify paying him the salary he makes.

VR
07-24-2012, 03:04 PM
The Marlins, who sent Anibal Sanchez and Omar Infante to Detroit yesterday, have also had teams inquire on Hanley Ramirez, Carlos Lee, Josh Johnson,Ricky Nolasco and Randy Choate. The Orioles are known to be seeking pitching and corner infield help. It wouldn't be surprising to see Baltimore pursue Ramirez or Johnson, since either player would have an impact in 2012 and on next year's team.

Have to think "Guillen" is being shopped as well......

mdccclxix
07-24-2012, 03:04 PM
Well, it's interesting because statistically speaking, Cozart is ahead of Hanley by .2 WAR by Fangraphs' measure. Even if we account for margin of error, we could call it a draw.

I do wonder, though, if Hanley being moved back to shortstop would get him back in the right frame of mind and get his production back closer to pre-2010 levels. Even if Hanley is back to being the upgrade we'd expect, one wonders if it would be enough to justify paying him the salary he makes.

Throw in the questionable character issues, real or not, and this isn't a Walt style move. I for one believe Hanley will be back, and would smoke in GABP as well, but would want to know more about the whole picture before adding him to the Reds. Cozart, IMO, could turn in some very bad years at the plate from year to year and Hanley would hedge against that during this batch of contending years. Almost certainly, the Reds would need to deal Arroyo and keep the arb guys in Leake, Bailey and Latos despite their raises. Funny though, dealing Arroyo has been the last thing they've looked to do.

Brutus
07-24-2012, 03:12 PM
Throw in the questionable character issues, real or not, and this isn't a Walt style move. I for one believe Hanley will be back, and would smoke in GABP as well, but would want to know more about the whole picture before adding him to the Reds. Cozart, IMO, could turn in some very bad years at the plate from year to year and Hanley would hedge against that during this batch of contending years. Almost certainly, the Reds would need to deal Arroyo and keep the arb guys in Leake, Bailey and Latos despite their raises. Funny though, dealing Arroyo has been the last thing they've looked to do.

I agree with you, it doesn't seem like the type of player he'd acquire. I'm only mildly interested in it, nonetheless, because I think Hanley really could be bought lower, and like you said, he might bounce back if/when switched back to shortstop. That reason alone might make it worthwhile depending on what the Reds had to give up.

mdccclxix
07-24-2012, 03:27 PM
I agree with you, it doesn't seem like the type of player he'd acquire. I'm only mildly interested in it, nonetheless, because I think Hanley really could be bought lower, and like you said, he might bounce back if/when switched back to shortstop. That reason alone might make it worthwhile depending on what the Reds had to give up.

You can't have a stronger offensive record than Hanley's had at SS. That's an important fact to consider. He's in that elite category that I believe is entirely likely to rebound at some point. I could quickly talk myself into a scenario where he'd be perfect for this team. It could be a Joe Morgan moment for this franchise. I just don't see it happening, and that's okay too this year. It's just that the blood's in the water now and I'd like to see what it would take.

RedlegJake
07-24-2012, 04:15 PM
I wouldn't take Hanley over Cozart at SS. I wouldn't and I know I'll get kicked for it but Hanley has serious character issues. He has a huge head and a payroll to match. His emotions seem to control his production on the field, too. Very immature. Zack isn't untouchable to me by any means I just think Hanley is the wrong type of guy. If you really absolutely need him I could see it but he isn't worth the headaches given the talent the Reds already have. Sometimes a guy just isn't worth what he brings for all his ability. Now I could change my mind if he was available without too much given up and some money came back as well. Like they just wanted to get rid of him and they'd take HRod straight up. Never happen though.

PuffyPig
07-24-2012, 04:33 PM
Well, it's interesting because statistically speaking, Cozart is ahead of Hanley by .2 WAR by Fangraphs' measure. Even if we account for margin of error, we could call it a draw.

I do wonder, though, if Hanley being moved back to shortstop would get him back in the right frame of mind and get his production back closer to pre-2010 levels. Even if Hanley is back to being the upgrade we'd expect, one wonders if it would be enough to justify paying him the salary he makes.


There is a reason why Ramirez was moved from SS, other than Reyes of course. He's a very poor defender there.

westofyou
07-24-2012, 04:43 PM
Salary relief at key positions is a key to this teams future, look for little moves, not big ones... especially ones that take a guy who has been more of an enigma the past 2 seasons than a ballplayer.

Brutus
07-24-2012, 04:45 PM
There is a reason why Ramirez was moved from SS, other than Reyes of course. He's a very poor defender there.

He's a poor defender, but they don't make that position switch unless they get Reyes.

Vottomatic
07-24-2012, 04:46 PM
Ha, to be fair, that was a pretty big upset in my opinion. Not many of us were able to see that coming.

Ha! Hence my post about Castellini not spending money like he did on Votto. No one saw that coming. If you're gonna be fair about it. :thumbup:

Vottomatic
07-24-2012, 04:56 PM
I don't want Ramirez. Dude had an OPS over .900+ from 2007-2009. He isn't even OPSing .800 last year or this year. His WAR has dropped from 7.1 back in 2009 to 2.6 (2010) to 0.0 (2011) to 0.4 this year. And according to Cot's, he makes $15M (2012), $15.5M ('13) and $16M ('14) before becoming a free agent. Adding that kind of payroll is not the kind of move Walt would make. And not for a player trending downward.

MartyFan
07-24-2012, 05:48 PM
Well, it's interesting because statistically speaking, Cozart is ahead of Hanley by .2 WAR by Fangraphs' measure. Even if we account for margin of error, we could call it a draw.

I do wonder, though, if Hanley being moved back to shortstop would get him back in the right frame of mind and get his production back closer to pre-2010 levels. Even if Hanley is back to being the upgrade we'd expect, one wonders if it would be enough to justify paying him the salary he makes.

What if Hanley wasn't a shortstop or an infielder at all? What if he was moved to the OF...maybe CF? If he wer ein this lineup and inserted into the top spot of the order what do the stat gods say he would do for the team? Anything above what we already have?

Brutus
07-24-2012, 05:59 PM
What if Hanley wasn't a shortstop or an infielder at all? What if he was moved to the OF...maybe CF? If he wer ein this lineup and inserted into the top spot of the order what do the stat gods say he would do for the team? Anything above what we already have?

Well, that's a great question. I'm not sure what he'd be like in the outfield, but at his current pace, his offense wouldn't justify the move very well (assuming he were also a below-average fielder out there).

If he were hitting like pre-2010 Hanley, I imagine his bat could carry his weight at several positions including left.

Dan
07-24-2012, 06:03 PM
The character issues are real, and continue this season (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-marlins/fl-miami-marlins-notes-preview-0721-20120720,0,2003644.story).

Unassisted
07-24-2012, 10:59 PM
There's much more crow to eat in all of the "Reds will never be able to sign Votto to a LTC" threads.And yet, I don't seem to remember anyone here predicting the Reds would pony up over $200 million to keep him into his 40s. :dunno:

reds44
07-24-2012, 11:40 PM
And yet, I don't seem to remember anyone here predicting the Reds would pony up over $200 million to keep him into his 40s. :dunno:
There were plenty of people (myself included) saying the Reds would make a serious attempt to re-sign him. I'm not sure if anybody saw him getting that much coin, but there were people saying it could be done.

camisadelgolf
07-25-2012, 12:21 AM
In terms of Votto, I don't think there was any doubt the Reds could sign him, but the question was, "At what cost?" Apparently the Reds have been saving up some money in anticipation of moves like this. Otherwise, we would've seen the Reds being forced to make decisions about whether keeping Votto around would be worth losing Brandon Phillips.

westofyou
07-25-2012, 12:54 PM
http://baseballmusings.com/?p=86719



If I’m a Miami Marlins fan, I’m pissed. For years the ownership screamed and hollered about the stadium. They put teams on the field that were good, but not quite good enough and seldom made a move to take them to the next level at the trade deadline. They would use the revenue stadium excuse for their lack to trying to win.

What is their excuse now? Can this front office only build a team on a shoestring? Did they mis-read the injury status of their players? Did they sign the wrong free agents? Did they hire the wrong manager? Were they more interested in making a television show that playing baseball? (I like to think they killed a man. It’s the romantic in me.)

The next time a team holds up a city for a new stadium, someone should trot out the Marlins. The failed miserably in delivering on their promises, and the people of Miami and the fans of the team should be rightly upset at all the money wasted on the team and the stadium.

westofyou
07-25-2012, 12:55 PM
DP

traderumor
07-25-2012, 01:00 PM
The next time a team holds up a city for a new stadium, someone should trot out the Marlins. The failed miserably in delivering on their promises, and the people of Miami and the fans of the team should be rightly upset at all the money wasted on the team and the stadium.Go back to 2003 and you'd see repeated very similar sentiments after GABP was opened to a thud, with Jimmy Haynes as the opening day starter and a thud of a beatdown by the Pirates. I've never thought an expectation that every new ballpark will coincide with a season of immediate prosperity was realistic just because it happened to the Indians in the mid-90s, but that seems to be the way it goes.

The Reds recovered quite nicely, but it took a change in ownership to do so.

Vottomatic
07-25-2012, 01:32 PM
Very rarely do I see ownership groups that know how to win and make money. It's usually one or the other. There are some exceptions though.

westofyou
07-25-2012, 03:08 PM
More note taking

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/33051/another-summer-of-discontent-in-miami



There's likely more to come. With Anibal Sanchez and Omar Infante gone to Detroit, Josh Johnson could be the next major piece shipped to another area code. You could argue that the latest tear-down job by a franchise with a history of them (and no World Series preceding it this time) is a sign of bad faith by Marlins ownership, especially after snookering clueless local government into an unfavorable stadium deal. Or you could simply say that the Marlins' offseason spending spree was ill-advised, given the roster's multiple holes (for the record, I liked what they did and thought the team had a good shot at making the playoffs).

Either way, the big talk of the winter has given way to yet another summer of discontent in Miami.

camisadelgolf
07-25-2012, 03:33 PM
Looks to me like the Marlins are focusing getting ready for location. They bet all their money that fans would come back to see the new stadium and keep coming back. Am I way off on this one?

_Sir_Charles_
07-25-2012, 05:32 PM
Did you mean re-location? If so, I don't think so. They'll be there a while since they got the stadium now. But they'll never get the fans back until they play good baseball. They haven't. Anybody know how they drew when they were winning years ago? I'm sure they'd blame poor attendance with a winning team on the stadium back then, but how bad was it?

Tom Servo
07-25-2012, 07:12 PM
I believed all along that both Florida teams should leave the Florida market. No offense to any Floridian Redzoners.

westofyou
07-25-2012, 07:16 PM
Baseball pushed for the new park, they will not abandon it... bad mojo.

Tampa Bay though is a different animal

camisadelgolf
07-25-2012, 07:31 PM
Did you mean re-location? If so, I don't think so. They'll be there a while since they got the stadium now. But they'll never get the fans back until they play good baseball. They haven't. Anybody know how they drew when they were winning years ago? I'm sure they'd blame poor attendance with a winning team on the stadium back then, but how bad was it?
Yeah, I meant relocation. I don't think it'll happen any time soon, but if they don't put butts in the seats within the next decade or two, they're in big trouble.

westofyou
02-24-2013, 08:32 PM
LETTER TO OUR FANS

It's no secret that last season was not our best -- actually it was one of our worst. In large part, our performance on the field stunk and something needed to be done. As a result of some bold moves, many grabbed hold of our tough yet necessary decision only to unleash a vicious cycle of negativity. As the owner of the ballclub, the buck stops with me and I take my share of the blame where it's due. However, many of the things being said about us are simply not true. I've sat by quietly and allowed this to continue. Now it's time for me to respond to our most important constituents, the fans who love the game of baseball.

Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/fish_bytes/2013/02/jeffrey-lorias-letter-to-our-fans.html#storylink=cpy

Crosley68
02-24-2013, 08:42 PM
The comments after the article are BRUTAL! Sad times in South Florida.

RFS62
02-24-2013, 11:13 PM
The comments after the article are BRUTAL! Sad times in South Florida.

No kidding.

And well deserved

reds44
02-24-2013, 11:26 PM
This thread doe >>>

kaldaniels
02-24-2013, 11:33 PM
Someone should publish a collection of these "classic" threads. Makes for a great light read in the evening!

traderumor
02-25-2013, 09:59 AM
He must have hired John Allen's PR firm to come up with that inept handling. I like how he justifies the salary dump as "not sustainable." I call it a spend and dump. Also, it takes a special level of stupidity to go back 10 years and remind everyone that you pulled a rabbit out of your hat for a title. If I had to go back 10 years to show my boss performance....

RichRed
02-25-2013, 10:30 AM
Talk is cheap...and so is Loria.