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mdccclxix
11-11-2011, 11:48 AM
Just something I thought might help us find a reliever to close in 2012. Blue marks the FA's. The rest are TRADE TARGETS! YEAH!

Saves + Holds Per Blown Save 2011 (Minimum 20 sv+hld)

Jose Valverde 49
Antonio Bastardo 25
Sergio Romo 24
Tony Sipp 24
John Axford 23
Koji Uehara 22
LaTroy Hawkins 20
Ryan Madson 18
Joel Peralta 13
Andrew Bailey 13
Chris Sale 12
David Robertson 12
Mike Adams 11
David Hernandez 11
J.J. Putz 11
Greg Holland 11
Javy Guerra 11
Javier Lopez 11
Jonathan Papelbon 10
Joel Hanrahan 10
Jonny Venters 10
Sean Marshall 10
Drew Storen 9
Chris Perez 9
Scott Downs 9
Mariano Rivera 9
Heath Bell 9
Rafael Soriano 8
Huston Street 8
Eric O'Flaherty 8
Rafael Betancourt 8
Brandon League 7
Joe Nathan 7
Brian Wilson 7
Daniel Bard 7
Brian Fuentes 7
Jason Motte 7
Francisco Rodriguez 7
Bill Bray 7
Jason Isringhausen 7
Vinnie Pestano 6
Joaquin Benoit 6
Francisco Cordero 6
Leo Nunez 6
Craig Kimbrel 6
Matt Thornton 6
Grant Balfour 6
Tyler Clippard 5
Jim Johnson 5
Nftali Feliz 5
Sergio Santos 5
Fernando Salas 5
Mark Melancon 5
Chad Qualls 4
Kyle Farnsworth 4
Jesse Crain 4
Jose Veras 4
Joakim Soria 4
Kerry Wood 4
Carlos Marmol 4
Jordan Walden 3
Kevin Gregg 3
Matt Capps 2

If nothing else, this list tells me that most teams count on their young, cheap talent to hold or close games. There are certainly some specialists in this list that would likely never get the call to close, either. Anyway, what you will. Who is your 2012 closer?

mth123
11-11-2011, 08:49 PM
Chapman, Masset, Bray, Arredondo, Ondrusek, Wood, Lecure with Boxberger on the way. Leave Chapman in relief and they don't need to mess with the pen. Chapman/Boxberger will be the 2012 version of Ventors/Kimbrall by the all star break. Bray is one of the best middle lefties around. Masset is still solid if he's not burnt up in May and doesn't price himslef out of Cincy. Arredondo will be much better in his second season back from TJ and could end up being better than them all.

Put all monetary resources toward a proven starting pitcher. If they must sign somebody, go for somebody cheap with experience to guide the kids but enough persepctive to accept a reduced role. I like Jason Isringhausen for aboout $1 Million more than bigger names for bigger bucks.

757690
11-28-2011, 04:05 PM
One thing to remember about the importance of a closer, is that it really doesn't come into effect until later in the season.

Many playoff bound teams struggle with the back of their bullpen for a good part of the season, then get a closer at the deadline, or find one in their organization that is finally ready by the Aug/Sept. and do fine.

Kc61
11-28-2011, 04:13 PM
Chapman, Masset, Bray, Arredondo, Ondrusek, Wood, Lecure with Boxberger on the way. Leave Chapman in relief and they don't need to mess with the pen. Chapman/Boxberger will be the 2012 version of Ventors/Kimbrall by the all star break. Bray is one of the best middle lefties around. Masset is still solid if he's not burnt up in May and doesn't price himslef out of Cincy. Arredondo will be much better in his second season back from TJ and could end up being better than them all.

Put all monetary resources toward a proven starting pitcher. If they must sign somebody, go for somebody cheap with experience to guide the kids but enough persepctive to accept a reduced role. I like Jason Isringhausen for aboout $1 Million more than bigger names for bigger bucks.

mth, I respect your views, but don't agree on this one.

Get the antacid ready because your bullpen will struggle in the late innings.

Chapman will be in long relief, starting, or at AAA. The Reds are stretching him out to start eventually. He's not going to be a late inning reliever.

Boxberger probably needs AAA time. If he's a Red, it's middle relief until he gets more experience. His control needs work, he's just not ready for prime time.

Masset, Ondrusek, Bray, all faded in 2011. Nobody knows how they will come back. Masset had a 3.40 ERA in 2010 - had some good numbers that year but still not stellar. He hasn't been top notch since 2009.

Arredondo did look good at the end of 2011. Maybe he's a late inning guy. Maybe.

This team needs to add late innings relievers. They don't have to cost a fortune, but new blood is needed in the pen.

mdccclxix
11-28-2011, 04:45 PM
Andrew Bailey ranks pretty high on this list, so although his real peripherals are trending back some, he was efficient in getting the job done.

I don't know what LaTroy Hawkins is doing next year, but he could play Arthur Rhodes or David Weathers...

Vottomatic
11-29-2011, 05:32 PM
Is Aardsma still available as a free agent?

mdccclxix
11-30-2011, 06:45 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/freeagents

he's not on this list

KoryMac5
11-30-2011, 09:56 PM
Why sign a guy if you have someone with in the organization that might have the stuff to be a good closer. Persoanlly I have always thought Volquez could be a lights out closer if given the shot.

blumj
11-30-2011, 10:49 PM
Is Aardsma still available as a free agent?
I think he had TJ surgery not long ago, or something else that takes quite a while to recover from.

Vottomatic
12-01-2011, 11:30 AM
He's on this list, and hasn't signed with anyone yet:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012-mlb-free-agents

Vottomatic
12-01-2011, 11:34 AM
Why sign a guy if you have someone with in the organization that might have the stuff to be a good closer. Persoanlly I have always thought Volquez could be a lights out closer if given the shot.

I agree. But would Volquez consider it?

I think the Chapman starting pitching experiment isn't working out either.

Moves I'd consider:
1. Leave Chapman in bullpen.
2. Bring up Boxberger.
3. Try Volquez in the bullpen
4. Closer by committee
5. I'd also sign a reliever, not a closer, off the free agent wire.

Bray
Boxberger
Chapman
Ondrusek
Masset
Arredondo
Volquez
Sign someone in free agency, and trade one of the above.

mth123
12-01-2011, 09:31 PM
Remember in 2010 how everyone was ready to run Cordero through with a sharp stick because he was always coming into games walking guys?

Multiply that by a trillion and you'll have Volquez as a closer.

Volquez is a guy who needs to be dealt to a non-contending, pitching poor team trying to catch lightning in a bottle. He should either be packaged for a more steady starter or dealt for prospects. I think he might be able to come back, but the Reds can't afford to dedicate a spot to him along with Chapman and Bailey. That's three guys who all have a ton of promise, but are also the most likely to provide nothing or worse to the rotation.

KoryMac5
12-01-2011, 09:59 PM
You're not going to get anything for Volquez on the open market. Why not give him a shot in the pen to see how he does in ST, especially if he is the odd man out in the rotation. If Volquez can focus on his two best pitches it may cut donw on the walks enough for us to stomach some wildness.

LoganBuck
12-02-2011, 08:03 AM
A guy to keep an eye on, Leo Nunez/Juan Carlos Oviedo/Whatever his name is. The Marlins are reportedly signing Heath Bell, Nunez has his identity issues, but could be had on the cheap. He was good, until the Marlins collapsed, mid season. A sign of problems or his environment? Will he be able to re enter the country?

buckeyenut
12-02-2011, 11:33 AM
I agree. But would Volquez consider it?
He considers it or he gets buried in AA. He sucked last year, in ML and AAA, he doesn't get to tell the team how to use him. If the Reds say we want to try you at closer, he shoudl say, Yes SIR.

mdccclxix
12-02-2011, 11:48 AM
He considers it or he gets buried in AA. He sucked last year, in ML and AAA, he doesn't get to tell the team how to use him. If the Reds say we want to try you at closer, he shoudl say, Yes SIR.

I think he's out of options, so he'd be gone.

MikeS21
12-05-2011, 08:32 AM
Volquez would be the obvious choice to close. First of all, he throws hard and has a great second pitch. Secondly, he is wild enough to be effective. Thirdly, I have wondered if his mental state would be best suited in a closer's role. Finally, I think he will only get better, the farther removed from TJ surgery he gets.

Only question is can he physically pitch three or four one inning stints in consecutive games.

Kc61
12-05-2011, 09:39 AM
Volquez would be the obvious choice to close. First of all, he throws hard and has a great second pitch. Secondly, he is wild enough to be effective. Thirdly, I have wondered if his mental state would be best suited in a closer's role. Finally, I think he will only get better, the farther removed from TJ surgery he gets.

Only question is can he physically pitch three or four one inning stints in consecutive games.

No, the question is how effective a closer can be averaging 5.4 walks per nine innings. That was V last year.

Volquez has always been a high walk guy. In the last three years, he has been 5 walks or more per nine. Before his injury he still had high walk totals.

Volquez isn't just wild enough to be effective. He has been wild, period.

If V fixes the wildness, he can be a good starter, closer, whatever. But his wildness isn't going away just because he closes.

lollipopcurve
12-05-2011, 09:50 AM
I'd like to see Lecure get a shot. Don't know if his arm is resilient enough, but I do think he's got decent stuff and a fearless nature. He wouldn't be dominant, but I think he could be consistent enough to get the job done most of the time.

HokieRed
12-05-2011, 10:04 AM
I'd like to see Lecure get a shot. Don't know if his arm is resilient enough, but I do think he's got decent stuff and a fearless nature. He wouldn't be dominant, but I think he could be consistent enough to get the job done most of the time.

Ditto. Reminds me of Brantley.

Vottomatic
12-05-2011, 01:24 PM
Volquez would be the obvious choice to close. First of all, he throws hard and has a great second pitch. Secondly, he is wild enough to be effective. Thirdly, I have wondered if his mental state would be best suited in a closer's role. Finally, I think he will only get better, the farther removed from TJ surgery he gets.

Only question is can he physically pitch three or four one inning stints in consecutive games.

I had the same thought about Volquez until I remembered how much he struggled at the beginning of games last year. Isn't that an indication of him probably having problems as a closer?

savafan
12-05-2011, 11:20 PM
My gut tells me the best guy currently on the Reds to close out games is Homer Bailey.

mth123
12-06-2011, 02:38 AM
My gut tells me the best guy currently on the Reds to close out games is Homer Bailey.

If he stays healthy, he may just turn out to be the best guy to start games too.

RedlegJake
12-06-2011, 04:42 AM
I wouldn't rule Chapman out just yet - since they nixed his winter ball for a weakness in his shoulder they may reassess and keep him in the pen after all. Makes the most sense to me, especially if he's having some shoulder twinges already. Of course, maybe getting up and ready night and night may be more stressful than prepping for a start every fifth day.

Never would I take Bailey out of the rotation - not at this point anyway - he still has a chance to be a stud starter. I do like the idea of LeCure, though. Arredondo was beginning to dominate, too, and has to be in the mix. And if Boxberger gains just a smidge more control - well, I just don't see the pen being the problem, seems to be a lot of good options.

mth123
12-06-2011, 06:09 AM
I wouldn't rule Chapman out just yet - since they nixed his winter ball for a weakness in his shoulder they may reassess and keep him in the pen after all. Makes the most sense to me, especially if he's having some shoulder twinges already. Of course, maybe getting up and ready night and night may be more stressful than prepping for a start every fifth day.

Never would I take Bailey out of the rotation - not at this point anyway - he still has a chance to be a stud starter. I do like the idea of LeCure, though. Arredondo was beginning to dominate, too, and has to be in the mix. And if Boxberger gains just a smidge more control - well, I just don't see the pen being the problem, seems to be a lot of good options.

Agreed completely. If Chapman stays in the pen, Chapman, Masset, Arredondo, Bray, Lecure, Ondrusek, Wood and Boxberger provide 8 solid options for 7 slots. That would allow for an injury to anyone on the staff since Wood could move to the rotation if a starter goes down. Beyond these guys, the Reds will still have a decent assortment of 12th man types in AAA with Fisher, Smith and Horst. Christiani will probably be in the mix at some point and I have a feeling that Donnie Joseph will bounce back and Chris Manno (obtained in the Gomes deal), Mace Thurman and Clayton Schunick might be in position to contribute at some point in 2012. I'd add a minor league free agent or two who can be invited to spring training and could pitch at AAA and spend my resources on one proven dependable starter for the rotation and to fill any holes created by acquiring one.

I still wonder if Chapman/Boxberger late in the game can be this year's version of Craig Kimbrel and Johnny Ventors.

Superdude
12-06-2011, 06:40 AM
I'd like to see Lecure get a shot. Don't know if his arm is resilient enough, but I do think he's got decent stuff and a fearless nature. He wouldn't be dominant, but I think he could be consistent enough to get the job done most of the time.

I could get behind this. The bullpen ticked his fastball up a notch or two, and his command was borderline machine-like at points last year. The world could use more mustached, control-artist closers IMO.

RANDY IN INDY
12-06-2011, 08:37 AM
If he stays healthy, he may just turn out to be the best guy to start games too.

My thoughts exactly :beerme: As far as the bullpen is concerned, I think the Reds are a lot better with Chapman in it. I really feel that there is only about a 10% chance that he makes any significant impact as a starter this season. He is not prepared to be a starting pitcher in the major leagues.

Blitz Dorsey
12-06-2011, 04:42 PM
Houston Street, anyone? The "Hot Stove" thread that's pinned to the top of the board says there is talk of a Volquez-for-Street trade. I would love me some of that. Getting rid of Volquez and acquiring a good closer in the same transaction? Yeah, count me in.

TRF
12-06-2011, 05:34 PM
He considers it or he gets buried in AA. He sucked last year, in ML and AAA, he doesn't get to tell the team how to use him. If the Reds say we want to try you at closer, he shoudl say, Yes SIR.

He absolutely did not suck at AAA. unless suck somehow means close to dominant. 1.17 WHIP 83K's 89 IP.

I keep hearing Wood compared to Cliff Lee. Now his season sucked. (Wood)

Sell EV now and be prepared to cringe. Just my opinion.

As for finding a Closer, I want a high K guy in there. Chapman is going to get the chance to start, so save the money and make LeCure the closer. Just name him now.

savafan
12-11-2011, 02:12 AM
Ryan Madson and Coco are still out there on the market. Only two teams are in need of a closer, Cincinnati and the Red Sox. It seems to me that the ball is in our court if either of these two are adamant about remaining closers. We could compete with Boston for Madson, or get Coco back for a short term deal on a cheap contract. I know the Reds have said that they likely won't be able to resign Coco, but I don't see any other team out there that will give him a chance at being a closer, unless he goes to Boston (not likely) and Madson winds up here.

All of that said, I'm not a Coco fan, but if he did come back on the cheap for a one or two year deal, I wouldn't complain greatly.

Blitz Dorsey
12-12-2011, 04:40 PM
Ryan Madson and Coco are still out there on the market. Only two teams are in need of a closer, Cincinnati and the Red Sox. It seems to me that the ball is in our court if either of these two are adamant about remaining closers. We could compete with Boston for Madson, or get Coco back for a short term deal on a cheap contract. I know the Reds have said that they likely won't be able to resign Coco, but I don't see any other team out there that will give him a chance at being a closer, unless he goes to Boston (not likely) and Madson winds up here.

All of that said, I'm not a Coco fan, but if he did come back on the cheap for a one or two year deal, I wouldn't complain greatly.

I was just about to post something similar. (Great minds! And us too.) Although I've been critical of Jocketty's passive approach to free agency and trades, sitting back and waiting might pay dividends this particular offseason in terms of the closer market. Like Sava said, there aren't many teams left that are looking for a closer. If Coco signs something like a 1-year, $5 million deal with the Reds ... I'm cool with that even though I was never a huge fan.

But what I'm really hoping is the Reds will land Madson. Problem there is I think he's looking for top-shelf (or close) closer money even though he's only had one good year as a closer. Course, it was a great year, not a good one.

Kc61
12-12-2011, 04:56 PM
Sign Madson.

Try to win.

mdccclxix
12-14-2011, 05:13 PM
THE BP FIRST TAKE
All general managers have strengths and weaknesses, some of which are easier to observe than others. When it comes to the Diamondbacks’ Kevin Towers, the ability to construct solid a solid bullpen without breaking the bank is clearly the feather in his cap.

Towers first worked that magic during his 15-year tenure with the Padres, before bringing it with him to Arizona in September of 2010. Last offseason
-- while the Tigers and Yankees were busy dishing out expensive, three-year deals to Joaquin Benoit and Rafael Soriano -- Towers bolstered the Diamondbacks’ pen with three low-cost moves.

J.J. Putz inked a two-year, $10 million hitch with Arizona, and outperformed both Benoit and Soriano with a 1.1 WARP effort as the closer. David Hernandez, acquired from the Orioles in the Mark Reynolds deal, posted a 2.91 FIP as Putz’s primary setup man. And Joe Paterson, a shrewd Rule 5 pick from the division rival Giants, blossomed into an elite LOOGY, holding opposing lefty batters to a .205/.292/.242 triple-slash.

In 2010, the D’backs ranked dead-last in the league with a putrid 5.72 bullpen ERA. One year of the Kevin Towers treatment pared that mark down to 3.71, good for 14th. And Towers’ two most recent moves have Arizona’s relief corps looking deeper and stronger for 2012 -- at a combined cost of about $2 million.

On Monday, the Diamondbacks agreed to a one-year, $1.75 million hitch with Takashi Saito (http://twitter.com/#!/JonHeymanCBS/status/146660720174571520).
Saito will be 42 by Opening Day, but he was very effective for the Brewers last season, particularly against right-handed batters, and could form a deadly seventh-inning platoon with Paterson.

On Tuesday, Arizona brought in Jonathan Albaladejo -- once a promising relief prospect who bounced around the Nationals, Pirates, and Yankees farm systems before making his way to Japan last year -- on a minor league deal (http://twitter.com/#!/Joelsherman1/status/146638048225013762). The 29-year-old Albaladejo pitched 63.1 innings for Triple-A Scranton in 2010, and struck out 82 batters while walking just 18. He was similarly effective for the Yomiuri Giants in 2011, and appears to have finally turned a corner.


Barring any significant moves in the coming weeks, the Diamondbacks will pay about $12 million to their entire bullpen for the 2012 season, including the recent acquisition of Craig Breslow in the Trevor Cahill deal with the A’s.

That’s roughly what the Phillies will pay Jonathan Papelbon alone.


Let's see how close Walt can get to being efficient with his bullpen resources.

_Sir_Charles_
12-14-2011, 08:48 PM
I've said it all along and I still think it'll happen. Cordero will come back on a much smaller contract. He's gotten little to no bites on the FA market from what I've read. I'm fairly certain that once he see's that the big paycheck isn't there to be had, he'll go for what makes him happy. And he clearly enjoyed his stay in Cincy. On a 1 or 2 year deal, I'd welcome Francisco back with open arms. Our closer prospects NEED more time, and I don't want to punt the position of closer until one is ready. We're still too close to being at the top of the division for that.

Vottomatic
12-15-2011, 08:21 AM
Saito for $1.75M?????

Where's Walt been? Unbelievable.

For the right low price, I'd re-sign Cordero, but only for one season. Then I'd stick Boxberger in the bullpen and see if he's ready to close.