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dougdirt
11-11-2011, 05:59 PM
http://blog.chron.com/ultimateastros/2011/11/11/astros-inching-closer-to-a-change-in-owners-leagues/

The AP cited two people familiar with the negotiations concerning the move, which would take effect in 2013. An MLB spokesman declined to comment. A spokesman for Crane said Friday that he’s not aware of an agreement over the terms of a move to the AL. The terms of compensation are not known, though MLB and Crane are known to have discussed a $50 million arrangement at one point.

Joseph
11-11-2011, 06:04 PM
So interleague everyday?

KronoRed
11-11-2011, 06:04 PM
Good news.

dougdirt
11-11-2011, 06:09 PM
The part that confuses me is this: Why do they get $50M or anything like that, for moving leagues?

kaldaniels
11-11-2011, 06:11 PM
For those of us in it for the long haul, this is the best news of the offseason.

savafan
11-11-2011, 06:50 PM
The part that confuses me is this: Why do they get $50M or anything like that, for moving leagues?

A story I read a while back said something to the effect that the value of the team would be less due to the increase in payroll necessary for that additional every day offensive player called the designated hitter.

Blitz Dorsey
11-11-2011, 07:08 PM
I can't believe something that I've been saying for years should happen ... is actually happening.

Now maybe Mike Brown will wise up and trade Carson Palmer. (Oh wait!)

Mario-Rijo
11-12-2011, 04:19 AM
I just don't like seeing a traditional NL team (and one of the easier ones to beat over the next many years BTW) is the team that gets moved. Still think the team ought to be the Rockies (my preference) or maybe the D-Backs just because they don't have near the NL roots and they just seem like AL teams (moreso Colorado) to me.

mth123
11-12-2011, 04:29 AM
I'm going to go against the grain here and say I hate to see any team moving to the AL and forcing interleague play to become a routine part of the schedule. I've been holding out hope that interleague would go away to allow more games against the teams that are actually competing against each other for the pennant. This move will ensure that interleague is here forever.:thumbdown:

KronoRed
11-12-2011, 05:13 AM
I'm going to go against the grain here and say I hate to see any team moving to the AL and forcing interleague play to become a routine part of the schedule. I've been holdig out hope that interleague would go away to allow more games against the teams that are actually competing against each other fro the pennant. This move will ensure that interleague is here forever.:thumbdown:

Nah, just until they expand again.

oneupper
11-12-2011, 05:37 AM
Houston to the AL means the DH to the NL. :thumbdown:

reds1869
11-12-2011, 07:09 AM
Houston to the AL means the DH to the NL. :thumbdown:

I fear you are right. At least we would know what to do with Yonder.

RedsBaron
11-12-2011, 08:02 AM
I just don't like seeing a traditional NL team (and one of the easier ones to beat over the next many years BTW) is the team that gets moved. Still think the team ought to be the Rockies (my preference) or maybe the D-Backs just because they don't have near the NL roots and they just seem like AL teams (moreso Colorado) to me.

I still think it should have been the Brewers. They were an AL team for decades before they came to the NL.

RFS62
11-12-2011, 08:09 AM
Houston to the AL means the DH to the NL. :thumbdown:


NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

This whole thing really sucks for me, now that I live in Houston.

Hate, hate, hate the DL, and now instead of seeing the Reds come to town twice a year to, oh, NEVER!!!!!

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

SandyD
11-12-2011, 08:29 AM
And Houston fans are going to hate it. At least the ones I've heard from.

HokieRed
11-12-2011, 08:49 AM
I just don't like seeing a traditional NL team (and one of the easier ones to beat over the next many years BTW) is the team that gets moved. Still think the team ought to be the Rockies (my preference) or maybe the D-Backs just because they don't have near the NL roots and they just seem like AL teams (moreso Colorado) to me.

Tradition varies. I consider the traditional NL teams to be the Cincinnati Reds, Pittsburgh Pirates, Philadelphia Phillies, Brooklyn Dodgers, New York Giants, St. Louis Cardinals, Chicago Cubs, and Milwaukee Braves.

_Sir_Charles_
11-12-2011, 06:44 PM
NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

This whole thing really sucks for me, now that I live in Houston.

Hate, hate, hate the DL, and now instead of seeing the Reds come to town twice a year to, oh, NEVER!!!!!

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

Bingo. The only time I ever get to see my beloved Redlegs is when they visit Minute Maid. Now I'll never get to see 'em live. Ugh.

mdccclxix
11-12-2011, 07:36 PM
Just when Carlos Lee became an incredible left fielder!

westofyou
11-12-2011, 07:50 PM
The Brewers should move. Bud stole them from Seattle and they are traditionally an AL team

757690
11-12-2011, 11:05 PM
The Brewers should move. Bud stole them from Seattle and they are traditionally an AL team

Milwaukee considers itself a NL city, however. It started as one and has most of its success as an NL team.

westofyou
11-12-2011, 11:12 PM
Milwaukee considers itself a NL city, however. It started as one and has most of its success as an NL team.

Yet they were an original AL city prior and hosted Chisox games in the late 60s, 27 years in the AL trump 14 years in the NL, being as close as they are to Chicago pretty much says they're lucky to even have a team

757690
11-12-2011, 11:22 PM
Yet they were an original AL city prior and hosted Chisox games in the late 60s, 27 years in the AL trump 14 years in the NL, being as close as they are to Chicago pretty much says they're lucky to even have a team

Good points, but the city considers itself an NL city, regardless of the facts. Just ask around.

cincinnati chili
11-13-2011, 12:52 AM
I feel really bad for Astros fans, and hope they stick it to the man and stop showing up. Logistically, this makes the most sense though.

I'm not sure the $50 M was really because of the extra payroll to add a DH but instead was because the powers that be knew it would devalue the team due to reduced TV ratings (more West coast games) and fan unrest.

And if they ever make the DH universal, I'm going to become a much more productive person because I will cut back significantly on my MLB related activities.

Phhhl
11-13-2011, 01:49 AM
I kind of hate to see the Astros go because they are the only "rival" we have left from the old NL West. The Reds have had bad blood with that team at times over the course of my lifetime. It was never a Dodgers-type feud at the height of the Big Red Machine, but I can recall several fist fights between the Reds and 'Stros over the years... primarily instigated by that team's propensity to dust off hitters in a customarily potent Reds' lineup. Mike Scott, Juaquin Andujar, Jose Lima, JR Richard, Joe Sambito... sometimes these guys bordered on Head Hunter status.

I don't know that I am ready to give up my hatred for the Astros just yet. The Brewers, Cubs and Cardinals... all these hard feelings have been fomented over the last 10-15 years. But, the Astros have villians stretching back to the 1970's, and I still relish beating them with George and Barbara Bush sitting behind home plate to witness the carnage.

Homer Bailey
11-13-2011, 11:36 AM
And Houston fans are going to hate it. At least the ones I've heard from.

You talked to both of them!?

The Operator
11-13-2011, 02:09 PM
You talked to both of them!?Well played sir. Well played.

RFS62
11-13-2011, 02:11 PM
You talked to both of them!?


No kidding. They generally have about 30,000 fans a game disguised as empty seats.

The Operator
11-13-2011, 02:34 PM
The most important thing in all of this is that Nolan Ryan got what he wanted. I think we've all been losing sight of what really matters.

Brutus
11-13-2011, 02:41 PM
You talked to both of them!?

It's down to one. The other defected and became a bandwagon Rangers' fan.

AmarilloRed
11-13-2011, 03:10 PM
6 teams in the NL Central, 4 in the AL West. It seems reasonable MLB would want one of the NL Central teams to move to the AL West. From the article, it sounds like Houston was picked because they're up for sale and are coming off a bad year. I don't understand why the move would mean more interleague or the DH to the NL though.

Brutus
11-13-2011, 03:16 PM
6 teams in the NL Central, 4 in the AL West. It seems reasonable MLB would want one of the NL Central teams to move to the AL West. From the article, it sounds like Houston was picked because they're up for sale and are coming off a bad year. I don't understand why the move would mean more interleague or the DH to the NL though.

It doesn't necessarily have to mean more, but it would be continuous. There would have to always be an interleague series going at all times, since there would be an uneven number of teams within each league.

Chip R
11-13-2011, 11:03 PM
No kidding. They generally have about 30,000 fans a game disguised as empty seats.

They usually outdraw the Reds when they have a halfway decent team and still drew 2M with an awful team. Fans who live in glass stadiums shouldn't throw baseballs.

savafan
11-16-2011, 06:41 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/11/16/source-says-mlb-is-forcing-astros-out-national-league/


Major League Baseball told Houston businessman Jim Crane it would not approve his purchase of the Astros unless he agreed to move the team to the American League, The Associated Press has learned.

Crane was forced to agree to move the sale along, a person familiar with the negotiations said Wednesday on condition of anonymity because no official announcement has been made by MLB or the Astros. Approval of the sale could be announced as early as Thursday at a meeting of baseball executives in Milwaukee.

KronoRed
11-16-2011, 07:04 PM
Crane's getting a nice discount for the move


Crane will receive a $70 million discount off the $680 million purchase price in exchange for moving the Astros to the AL in 2013, with McLane and MLB contributing $35 million each to the discount, an MLB official with knowledge of the talks said, according to the Houston Chronicle.

Everybody wins, except NL teams who can't count on a 100 wins over the Astros anymore :D

Yachtzee
11-16-2011, 07:19 PM
Implement the DH in the NL and you'll likely kill off another generation of fans in many NL cities. Just as the '94 strike took the fandom out of my dad and uncles, this will probably do it for me.

Cedric
11-16-2011, 07:37 PM
Implement the DH in the NL and you'll likely kill off another generation of fans in many NL cities. Just as the '94 strike took the fandom out of my dad and uncles, this will probably do it for me.

That would literally break my heart. Is this realistic?

savafan
11-16-2011, 07:40 PM
That would literally break my heart. Is this realistic?

Isn't the fact that there will be interleague baseball every day with 2 leagues of 15 teams each creating a de facto NL DH position?


What's the long term answer though? Expansion? Contraction? Personally, I'd rather see two leagues with 28 or 32 teams total as opposed to the 15 team AL and 15 team NL proposition.

Danny Serafini
11-16-2011, 07:47 PM
Isn't the fact that there will be interleague baseball every day with 2 leagues of 15 teams each creating a de facto NL DH position?

No more so than today. It's not like they're going to add a bunch of interleague games, they're just spacing them out differently.

Yachtzee
11-16-2011, 07:50 PM
Isn't the fact that there will be interleague baseball every day with 2 leagues of 15 teams each creating a de facto NL DH position?


What's the long term answer though? Expansion? Contraction? Personally, I'd rather see two leagues with 28 or 32 teams total as opposed to the 15 team AL and 15 team NL proposition.

It's all shuffling deck chairs. The long term solution is revenue sharing and payroll equality that would ensure financial stability league-wide and remove payroll pressure as an excuse to not compete. It would also allow the spread of top-level talent across the country instead of consolidating in in a limited number of markets. Everything else is mere gimmickry as a means to make it look like MLB is doing something.

savafan
11-16-2011, 07:59 PM
To be honest, I can't see this format lasting. I have to believe that somewhere down the line, sooner rather than later, the divisions will be shuffled again.

oregonred
11-17-2011, 01:59 AM
Long term good scenario for the Reds. Reducing the division to a fair five teams will be beneficial long term. Think 1999 and an NL Central title for the Reds (for example).

The real benefit is getting a division rival residing in the nation's second largest single team market (#6 overall, but #2 behind Dallas as a market without two teams) way the heck away from the Reds to compete with year in and year out. This leaves only one mega market team in the Reds division to deal with long term. Bad for tradition with the Reds/Stros having a long history but good long term for the rest of the NL Central.

Odd that the NL would be left without a team in fast growing Texas and exposed to the #1 corporate base in the country. Austin will get a team within ten years and the NL will be back in Texas. Booming Austin/San Antonio is easily the top market in the country without an MLB franchise. This actually sets up that scenario for the future as Texas will require three teams in the next few years.

cumberlandreds
11-17-2011, 07:54 AM
Houston to the AL means the DH to the NL. :thumbdown:


IMO if you are going to have interleague play everyday then you have to have the same rules in both leagues. You either have the DH full time or no DH. I prefer no DH but IMO it needs to be same across the board.

RFS62
11-17-2011, 07:55 AM
They usually outdraw the Reds when they have a halfway decent team and still drew 2M with an awful team. Fans who live in glass stadiums shouldn't throw baseballs.


Is that the same as people who live in their mommy's basement shouldn't be a smart-ass?

:p

Houston is the 4th largest city in the country, barely missed moving past Chicago to number three in the last census.

Apples to watermelons

cumberlandreds
11-17-2011, 07:59 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/11/16/source-says-mlb-is-forcing-astros-out-national-league/ (http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/11/16/source-says-mlb-is-forcing-astros-out-national-league/)

Some nice little extortion from MLB.

Roy Tucker
11-17-2011, 08:14 AM
It all seems an easy way out and a little sneaky and nasty for MLB. Pick on a team when it is at its weakest.

A new owner gets his arm twisted and a fan base gets screwed. At least for me, a part of enjoying baseball is these long-time rivalries with teams.

RANDY IN INDY
11-17-2011, 03:42 PM
Is that the same as people who live in their mommy's basement shouldn't be a smart-ass?

:p

Houston is the 4th largest city in the country, barely missed moving past Chicago to number three in the last census.

Apples to watermelons

Agree.

Caveat Emperor
11-17-2011, 05:23 PM
To be honest, I can't see this format lasting. I have to believe that somewhere down the line, sooner rather than later, the divisions will be shuffled again.

I fear that this is all really a precursor to a more NFL model of scheduling, where the distinctions between the AL and the NL are for seeding and playoff structure only.

savafan
11-17-2011, 08:03 PM
http://blog.chron.com/ultimateastros/2011/11/16/local-attorney-says-astros-move-to-al-violates-lease-agreement/


Kevin W. Yankowsky, a partner at Fulbright & Jaworski L.L.P., outlined his findings from a review of the lease in a Tuesday letter to J. Kent Friedman, the Sports Authority’s chairman of the board.

Yankowsky, an Astros fan since the 1970s, will make a presentation at the Dec. 1 Sports Authority Board of Directors meeting urging a strict enforcement of the Astros’ lease to play their home games at Minute Maid Park. The wording of the lease agreement, Yankowsky said, spells out that the Astros cannot play at Minute Maid as anything but a National League team without receiving prior consent from the Sports Authority.

KronoRed
11-17-2011, 08:22 PM
Pfft, Astrodome is still standing, they can play there ;).

Yachtzee
11-18-2011, 08:43 AM
Long term good scenario for the Reds. Reducing the division to a fair five teams will be beneficial long term. Think 1999 and an NL Central title for the Reds (for example).

The real benefit is getting a division rival residing in the nation's second largest single team market (#6 overall, but #2 behind Dallas as a market without two teams) way the heck away from the Reds to compete with year in and year out. This leaves only one mega market team in the Reds division to deal with long term. Bad for tradition with the Reds/Stros having a long history but good long term for the rest of the NL Central.

Odd that the NL would be left without a team in fast growing Texas and exposed to the #1 corporate base in the country. Austin will get a team within ten years and the NL will be back in Texas. Booming Austin/San Antonio is easily the top market in the country without an MLB franchise. This actually sets up that scenario for the future as Texas will require three teams in the next few years.

If the plan is to expand or move a team, why rush to move Houston to the AL? And getting rid of a big market division rival will likely hurt the Reds than help them. I suspect the Reds have made more money off Astros games than all those pesky games against Pittsburgh and Milwaukee. Small market teams need games against big market rivals to bring in revenue.

REDREAD
11-18-2011, 10:35 AM
Kevin W. Yankowsky, a partner at Fulbright & Jaworski L.L.P., outlined his findings from a review of the lease in a Tuesday letter to J. Kent Friedman, the Sports Authority’s chairman of the board.

Yankowsky, an Astros fan since the 1970s, will make a presentation at the Dec. 1 Sports Authority Board of Directors meeting urging a strict enforcement of the Astros’ lease to play their home games at Minute Maid Park. The wording of the lease agreement, Yankowsky said, spells out that the Astros cannot play at Minute Maid as anything but a National League team without receiving prior consent from the Sports Authority.

I can't see this threat working.
It's not as if the government can afford to have Minute Maid park have no team and be empty every night..

_Sir_Charles_
11-18-2011, 10:43 AM
I can't see this threat working.
It's not as if the government can afford to have Minute Maid park have no team and be empty every night..

It wouldn't be empty. IIRC, they're looking for a place for the Dynamo to play too (soccer team). They're talking about building ANOTHER stadium in houston for them.

oregonred
11-18-2011, 04:46 PM
If the plan is to expand or move a team, why rush to move Houston to the AL? And getting rid of a big market division rival will likely hurt the Reds than help them. I suspect the Reds have made more money off Astros games than all those pesky games against Pittsburgh and Milwaukee. Small market teams need games against big market rivals to bring in revenue.

Not sure I understand your point. There is no gate split in MLB?

The Astros being in the Reds division brings no additional money and revenue to the table for the Reds other than having both a mega market team and also an unfair 1/6 vs. 1/5 chance of winning the divison in an average year. Bad and Bad.

I'm fairly certain while the Astros/Reds have a long history as division rivals, the Astros coming to town have never moved the turnstiles at GABP and certainly won't have any impact on the Reds future TV revenue.

Getting fast growing and megamarket Houston out of the NL Central is a very good long term thing for the Reds. They'll soon be emulating the Rangers as a cash rich $100M payroll team under new ownership and when they get a chance for the next local TV deal.

AmarilloRed
11-18-2011, 08:39 PM
If the plan is to expand or move a team, why rush to move Houston to the AL? And getting rid of a big market division rival will likely hurt the Reds than help them. I suspect the Reds have made more money off Astros games than all those pesky games against Pittsburgh and Milwaukee. Small market teams need games against big market rivals to bring in revenue.

From what I read of the article, the move to the AL is a condition involved in the sale of the Astros from McClain to Crane. There's also a goal involved in creating a in-state rivalry between Houston and Texas Rangers, especially since the Rangers have lost 2 straight World Series.

oneupper
11-19-2011, 08:24 AM
From what I read of the article, the move to the AL is a condition involved in the sale of the Astros from McClain to Crane. There's also a goal involved in creating a in-state rivalry between Houston and Texas Rangers, especially since the Rangers have lost 2 straight World Series.

Silly question. If the Rangers and Astros are in the same division, what happens to the "geographical rivals" interleague series thing?

Houston-D'backs? Rangers-Rockies?

Or are we going to scrap that whole concept? (which I would welcome).

reds1869
11-19-2011, 08:31 AM
Or are we going to scrap that whole concept? (which I would welcome).

I hope this is the case. Nothing irritates me more than seeing one team match up with a juggernaut while a team in the same division gets a weak opponent.

Yachtzee
11-20-2011, 11:57 AM
Not sure I understand your point. There is no gate split in MLB?

The Astros being in the Reds division brings no additional money and revenue to the table for the Reds other than having both a mega market team and also an unfair 1/6 vs. 1/5 chance of winning the divison in an average year. Bad and Bad.

I'm fairly certain while the Astros/Reds have a long history as division rivals, the Astros coming to town have never moved the turnstiles at GABP and certainly won't have any impact on the Reds future TV revenue.

Getting fast growing and megamarket Houston out of the NL Central is a very good long term thing for the Reds. They'll soon be emulating the Rangers as a cash rich $100M payroll team under new ownership and when they get a chance for the next local TV deal.

Maybe Houston hasn't been a big draw in recent years due to their lackluster performance, but if you look back to their good years, I suspect they've brought in more fans to Reds games than the Pirates and Brewers. Instead of shifting the Astros, Id rather see the NL go to two larger divisions with a balanced schedule and wild cards. Fewer games against attendance dogs like Pittsburgh and Milwaukee, more games against attendance attractions like LA, NY, Philly, Atlanta, SF, etc. to go with current draws STL and Chicago.

REDREAD
11-21-2011, 10:17 AM
It wouldn't be empty. IIRC, they're looking for a place for the Dynamo to play too (soccer team). They're talking about building ANOTHER stadium in houston for them.


I bet the Astros bring in a lot more money than soccer.
It's an empty threat.

oregonred
11-21-2011, 11:25 AM
Maybe Houston hasn't been a big draw in recent years due to their lackluster performance, but if you look back to their good years, I suspect they've brought in more fans to Reds games than the Pirates and Brewers. Instead of shifting the Astros, Id rather see the NL go to two larger divisions with a balanced schedule and wild cards. Fewer games against attendance dogs like Pittsburgh and Milwaukee, more games against attendance attractions like LA, NY, Philly, Atlanta, SF, etc. to go with current draws STL and Chicago.

That's a different argument altogether with some good points on a better schedule and two larger divisions. As far as the current system of three divisions and six teams in the NL Central. Getting the Astros out of the Reds division is a very good thing for the Reds under the current system. Leaves only one megamarket team for the Reds to compete with year in and year out. And the Astros aren't a draw and won't cost the Reds at all in attendance (may increase assuming more games with higher draw teams as you noted).

I really don't see how anyone can argue about this not being good for the Reds long term.