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traderumor
11-13-2011, 11:03 AM
I have no idea what to expect from the Buckeyes this year due to the turnover. They do bring back three starters, one of them a consensus All-American and NBA lottery pick.

The inside/outside game Craft and Sullinger will be able to play should be formidable. More consistency from Buford and Thomas will be needed. To deserve their lofty ranking, one of the young bigs is going to have to step forward. The transfer from BC (Ravenal) and Amir Williams seem most likely. Sibert will also need to provide a shooting spark to help keep defenses honest.

And there seems to be the key for me and why I wonder if the Buckeyes are currently barely a top 10 team. Matta likes to rotate 7, he currently has three knowns, but four unknowns on who is going to be in that rotation.

Williams, Ravenal, Lenzell Smith, Jr., Sibert, Shannon Scott, J.D. Weatherspoon? Or will Matta adjust to his depth that I see as I type out these names and go deeper on his bench than is his custom? No doubt, the Bucks are a top 10 team due to the depth of talent, but I see too many question marks to think they are an early season Final Four candidate.

An early season test looms in Florida, who also lost stars and experience from last year's team. Duke is also on the preseason schedule, so there are some good gauges prior to the conference season starting.

Buckeye33
11-14-2011, 04:08 PM
This team is so young that it will take them a little while to become a "team". They have a ton of talent but they have 6 sophomores and 4 freshman and only ONE senior.

Obviously Sullinger is someone who will just do his thing and get his 20 & 10 pretty much every night. I think the key is who is going to step up and hit the open 3 when Sully gets double teamed constantly?

I think Smith Jr. is going to be someone who surprises a lot of people. He is already in the starting lineup and at 6'4 can provide good rebounding and good D. If he can hit his jump shot that would be huge.

I think Matta will end up going with an 9 man rotation early and by the time the B10 rolls around it will be more of an 8 man with Weatherspoon getting less minutes.

Sully, Craft, Buford, Smith Jr, Thomas, Thompson, Scott, Williams, Weatherspoon.

Gainesville Red
11-15-2011, 04:56 PM
I'm pretty excited for tonight.

A football season like Florida's having will do that.

Should be a good one.

bucksfan2
11-16-2011, 09:25 AM
I don't get the same feeling about OSU I had going into last season. I still think they will be a top tier team in college basketball. I do think they will miss the likes of Lighty and Lauderdale this year. Lighty could guard 2-3-4 and Lauderdale was a nice defensive big guy. Both of which OSU doesn't have this season. Its still early but I was surprised that guys like Scott and Amir Williams didn't get into the game more.

Aaron Craft is an absolute joy to watch. It has been a long time since I have seen anyone as good defending the PG as he is. His hesitation blow by is always nice to watch. Bufford showed to be the same player he was in his Soph and Jr year. He takes his fair share of bad shots, if they go in no one cares. Sullinger is going to be a beast this season as long as he stays out of foul trouble. I think their upside is better than last year but also their their downside is much bigger.

Redsfaithful
11-16-2011, 01:02 PM
I thought it would be a long time before the Buckeyes had a PG as good as Mike Conley again. Glad to be proven wrong so fast.

traderumor
11-16-2011, 04:49 PM
Last night was very encouraging, not just because of the win, but that the team looked solid and deep against what appears to be a legit top tier team. They also played a lot of the second half without Sullinger and it really was barely noticeable. Smith, Jr. quickly emerged as a shutdown defender, and Craft is about as good as I've seen at the ball strip. Looks like its going to be a fun year.

BuckeyeRed27
11-16-2011, 05:22 PM
The team looked good, but I was really happy to see the crowd. I know it was a big game, but it is still awesome to see a crowd that into a game in November. I graduated in 2005 and the difference with Thad Matta in that amount of time is amazing.

Brutus
11-16-2011, 05:45 PM
Some thoughts in general...

* Love Florida's backcourt. Their guards have in-the-gym range and are all pretty quick with the ball. As good as their backcourt is, I was equally impressed withe the improvement of Patric Young inside. He's becoming a legitimate post threat for them. Their frontcourt depth is a concern, however.

* Craft was being Craft last night, but I think the bigger story than his defense is how aggressive he was attacking the rim. He's got a lot more confidence in his game as a sophomore than he did last season. He's going to eventually have to be able to knock down shots, though, as teams will go under screens and play off him to honor his penetration.

* I think Ohio State has found two gem secondary contributors in Lenzelle Smith and Evan Ravenel. Both are playing stout defense and doing a lot of little things to help win games. Smith, especially, has enough offensive talent that he'll contribute offensively as he gets more of a defined role. Nonetheless, Jordan Sibert will need to be involved this season as he's the best shooter on Ohio State's team, and OSU probably will need one more consistent scoring threat.

* What intrigues me about this group is that LaQuinton Ross, by all indications, is the freshman OSU's staff has been most excited about. When he joins them in December, he'll make a play for PT.

That was a high-level game being played last night, which is impressive for Nov. 15. I really think Ohio State and Florida are both justified in their rankings, and quite honestly I'd move Florida up a few spots simply based on what we've seen merely a week into the season.

Buckeye33
11-29-2011, 12:11 PM
Biggest game in OSU basketball since Indiana in '91. My mom took my ticket to th at game because she hated Bobby Knight. I was 12 and devastated and ended up missing an all time classic. My Dad said that St. John Arena was literally shaking back and forth, which Vitale mentioned during the broadcast.

That will not happen to me again as I will be in Value City arena tonight. I can only hope it comes even close to the '91 game.

15fan
11-29-2011, 10:59 PM
Biggest game in OSU basketball since Indiana in '91. My mom took my ticket to th at game because she hated Bobby Knight. I was 12 and devastated and ended up missing an all time classic. My Dad said that St. John Arena was literally shaking back and forth, which Vitale mentioned during the broadcast.

That will not happen to me again as I will be in Value City arena tonight. I can only hope it comes even close to the '91 game.

It's a beautiful thing to watch Duke get worked.

Scrap Irony
11-29-2011, 11:35 PM
That's the best I've seen a college basketball team play this year.

Ohio State deserves to be ranked number one.

WVRed
11-30-2011, 04:29 AM
That's the best I've seen a college basketball team play this year.

Ohio State deserves to be ranked number one.

Might happen after Saturday. I think UK wins, but it could go either way.

Brutus
11-30-2011, 05:14 AM
Might happen after Saturday. I think UK wins, but it could go either way.

It might happen regardless of whether UK wins or not. Ohio State would need to flip just 14 votes to overtake Kentucky in the poll. Nonetheless, that's obviously not really a big deal at this point in the season (inasmuch as the poll is a big deal at any point in college basketball lol)

Ohio State definitely looked the part against Duke last night. The big thing is that they shot well, something they haven't done to this point. The passing was so crisp, and the penetration so effective, they were getting open shots -- especially when Duke was doubling down on Sullinger or helping off to stop the penetration. This was getting a lot of open looks and OSU was burying those shots.

Defensively and athletically, I think this Ohio State team is as good as it's been. I don't know if it's nearly as polished as the team last year, but it still has 3-4 months to work out those kinks. I think Kentucky is by far the most talented team in the country, but at the end of the year, I still think UK-OSU-UNC-UCONN will be in a class above everyone. UCONN is still a way off, but they're pretty athletic in their own right.

Roy Tucker
11-30-2011, 08:42 AM
Quite the rock star event last night with LeBron James and Dwyane Wade in crowd and the #1 ESPN guys there and all the hoopla.

I can't remember the last time I saw Duke handled so easily. Coach K played some odd combinations. I almost got the feeling he treated it as a pre-season game and played a lot of guys to let them know how far they need to go to get ready for the ACC and the NCAAs.

OSU was in mid-season form. My only worry is that they are peaking too soon. And this may be heresy, but I don't think Sullinger is all that great. He's not an above-the-rim guy with dynamic skills. I think having such an athletic and talented team around him makes him look good. I mean, he's a good college player, but I don't get that he's a NBA lottery-type guy. JMO.

traderumor
11-30-2011, 09:41 AM
Quite the rock star event last night with LeBron James and Dwyane Wade in crowd and the #1 ESPN guys there and all the hoopla.

I can't remember the last time I saw Duke handled so easily. Coach K played some odd combinations. I almost got the feeling he treated it as a pre-season game and played a lot of guys to let them know how far they need to go to get ready for the ACC and the NCAAs.

OSU was in mid-season form. My only worry is that they are peaking too soon. And this may be heresy, but I don't think Sullinger is all that great. He's not an above-the-rim guy with dynamic skills. I think having such an athletic and talented team around him makes him look good. I mean, he's a good college player, but I don't get that he's a NBA lottery-type guy. JMO.I don't know about heresy, but there is a lot of evidence that he is great, such as averaging a double-double in his Freshman season is great. Where he is mere mortal is on D. Apparently other teams think he is great also, since they double and triple team him, and resort to Hack a Shack techniques, even though there are several talented players on the team.

I do understand where you are coming from, because he is a bit of a clunky player rather than a "Phi Slamma Jamma" type, and I could care less about what type of NBA player he projects because that league is just another animal when it comes to the type of player who is successful. He may be Danny Ferry for all we know, but that doesn't mean that Danny Ferry was not a great basketball player. I did not appreciate Sullinger that much when I first started watching his game, but he is just so strong, has great feet, passes well, has a soft touch, really makes intelligent plays, is a team player, that he is a force. If he can just work on that D (which I think his effort can be questioned at times).

BTW, I said throughout his college years that Kelly Trupucka "wasn't that great," kinda the way you seem to be saying it here. He just didn't have that sexy game, but just was the best player on his team. Didn't think he'd amount to anything in the NBA, yet he turned out to be an All-Star there as well. I do think if Sullinger was a lottery pick this year, that he would be disappointing initially because he isn't the most athletic, high-flying type score like a Kevin Durant, or a 7+ footer, just a solid guy who gets the job done.

Ohayou
11-30-2011, 09:45 AM
Ohio State's starting five played as good as I've seen them against a high caliber opponent.

bucksfan2
11-30-2011, 10:21 AM
The biggest thing I noticed is the refs let both teams play. It was a very clean first half but they also didn't call any ticky tack fouls. IMO against top competition that is the only way Duke is going to win this season. They don't have the athletes to compete with other top teams.

As for OSU that is about as good as I have seen a starting 5 play in a long time. They made a high percentage of shots but there were very few bad shots thrown in. Their ball movement was top notch and they were shooting open shots all night long. Sullinger may not be the most athletic big man in the country but he knows how to play the post position.

As the season goes along I hope Scott as well as Williams get some more PT. I think that is Thad's biggest shortcoming is his use of short benches. Its nice to have Craft on the court for 40 minutes, but it also would be nice to see Scott make an impact his freshman year.

Roy Tucker
11-30-2011, 11:05 AM
I don't mean to say I don't like Sullinger as a player. I think he's good. He just doesn't make my eyes pop out, that's all.

Probably a David West-type player. Not an explosive talent, but well-schooled, nice touch, great hands and feet, good court sense, good passer, very persistent, great character, great teammate. Excellent college player. It's just that the TV guys were going ga-ga over him like he's the second coming of Dr. J and I'm like "really?".

traderumor
11-30-2011, 11:23 AM
I don't mean to say I don't like Sullinger as a player. I think he's good. He just doesn't make my eyes pop out, that's all.

Probably a David West-type player. Not an explosive talent, but well-schooled, nice touch, great hands and feet, good court sense, good passer, very persistent, great character, great teammate. Excellent college player. It's just that the TV guys were going ga-ga over him like he's the second coming of Dr. J and I'm like "really?".Well, if that's the standard, Dickie V. exaggerates any player. I don't think anyone realistically appreciates Sullinger as a flashy player, but just as you said, for his real basketball qualities, which make him a star. But then, what substance is there in the flash?

Dickie V's adjectives have to be taken for what they're worth. I barely even hear him as I listen to a game he's covering.

cincrazy
11-30-2011, 11:26 AM
I don't mean to say I don't like Sullinger as a player. I think he's good. He just doesn't make my eyes pop out, that's all.

Probably a David West-type player. Not an explosive talent, but well-schooled, nice touch, great hands and feet, good court sense, good passer, very persistent, great character, great teammate. Excellent college player. It's just that the TV guys were going ga-ga over him like he's the second coming of Dr. J and I'm like "really?".

Totally agree with you on this. I love Jared Sullinger. But he's not even the most important player on this basketball team, IMO. That would be Aaron Craft, the best point guard in the country. We could survive without Sullinger, maybe even still win the Big 10. Take Craft away and I think we'd really struggle. The well run machine would develop many kinks.

traderumor
11-30-2011, 11:36 AM
Totally agree with you on this. I love Jared Sullinger. But he's not even the most important player on this basketball team, IMO. That would be Aaron Craft, the best point guard in the country. We could survive without Sullinger, maybe even still win the Big 10. Take Craft away and I think we'd really struggle. The well run machine would develop many kinks.Wow, that is some strong hyperbole that I don't think is intended as such. I would say Craft and Sullinger are the two most important ingredients that makes this an elite team and either of their absence makes them good, but no longer elite. They are, at least, 1A and 1B and it is a symbiotic relationship. Both are equally important to be anything more than a 20 win team and a middle of the pack Conference team getting a 4 or 5 seed in the NCAA.

But, I guess you can test your theory next year, cuz I think this is Sullinger's farewell tour.

bucksfan2
11-30-2011, 11:43 AM
Wow, that is some strong hyperbole that I don't think is intended as such. I would say Craft and Sullinger are the two most important ingredients that makes this an elite team and either of their absence makes them good, but no longer elite. They are, at least, 1A and 1B and it is a symbiotic relationship. Both are equally important to be anything more than a 20 win team and a middle of the pack Conference team getting a 4 or 5 seed in the NCAA.

But, I guess you can test your theory next year, cuz I think this is Sullinger's farewell tour.

Sullinger is the most important cog on this years team. Craft would be a close second, but OSU has a highly rated freshman PG that could spell Craft if he went down. Its difficult to sell a double double machine.

It wouldn't surprise me one way or the other if Sullinger left of stayed for his Jr season. He has a strong support system in Columbus and his family doesn't "need" for him to turn pro. He also will have things to develop on over the next few years. I wonder if his decision will be swayed by the OSU big guys who left too early and are in the NBADL or riding the pine in the NBA.

Captain13
11-30-2011, 12:23 PM
Not a Buckeye fan, but WOW! What a great performance. I will say, I will cheer for tOSU to pound UK if they meet in March, and I think they can do it.

Roy Tucker
11-30-2011, 01:07 PM
Well, if that's the standard, Dickie V. exaggerates any player. I don't think anyone realistically appreciates Sullinger as a flashy player, but just as you said, for his real basketball qualities, which make him a star. But then, what substance is there in the flash?

Dickie V's adjectives have to be taken for what they're worth. I barely even hear him as I listen to a game he's covering.

Like I said, I don't want to come across that I don't think Sullinger isn't any good or I don't like him. I love a good, intelligent, well-schooled basketball player who plays an smart and persistent game and elevates his team. He's a very good college player and I love seeing and appreciating that.

But right now he's a back-to-basket type guy and I think he needs to expand his game to get to my criteria of an elite PotY-type player (and I'm a harsh critic). And IMHO, his current play won't work "at the next level". I think he'd be smart to come back for his jr. year.

traderumor
11-30-2011, 01:35 PM
Sullinger is the most important cog on this years team. Craft would be a close second, but OSU has a highly rated freshman PG that could spell Craft if he went down. Its difficult to sell a double double machine.

It wouldn't surprise me one way or the other if Sullinger left of stayed for his Jr season. He has a strong support system in Columbus and his family doesn't "need" for him to turn pro. He also will have things to develop on over the next few years. I wonder if his decision will be swayed by the OSU big guys who left too early and are in the NBADL or riding the pine in the NBA.I'd like to believe that, but I think he was ready to go this year but for the lockout threat, which makes him look really smart at this point. I'm also of the opinion that he may not be an impact player in the NBA because of his style of game, seems like a sluggish power forward with O and no D skills, so it might be in his best interests to capitalize on any hype and get a big bonus to help compensate for lower NBA earning potential due to a short career, or bench career track.

BuckeyeRed27
11-30-2011, 01:43 PM
Sullinger reminds me a lot of Kevin Love and he's done ok for himself. I think Love is a little bit taller, but I think Sullinger is a little bit better natural scorer.

I wish Duke would have put up a little bit more of a fight last night, but they looked tired and I'm sure they were after the travel. Deshaun Thomas was a beast and when he plays that way there isn't a team in college basketball that can beat OSU.

WVRed
11-30-2011, 02:23 PM
It might happen regardless of whether UK wins or not. Ohio State would need to flip just 14 votes to overtake Kentucky in the poll. Nonetheless, that's obviously not really a big deal at this point in the season (inasmuch as the poll is a big deal at any point in college basketball lol)

Ohio State definitely looked the part against Duke last night. The big thing is that they shot well, something they haven't done to this point. The passing was so crisp, and the penetration so effective, they were getting open shots -- especially when Duke was doubling down on Sullinger or helping off to stop the penetration. This was getting a lot of open looks and OSU was burying those shots.

Defensively and athletically, I think this Ohio State team is as good as it's been. I don't know if it's nearly as polished as the team last year, but it still has 3-4 months to work out those kinks. I think Kentucky is by far the most talented team in the country, but at the end of the year, I still think UK-OSU-UNC-UCONN will be in a class above everyone. UCONN is still a way off, but they're pretty athletic in their own right.

If Kentucky beats North Carolina, the rankings stay the same, period. I could see a case if Ohio State wins in Lawrence next week but UK-UNC before this week was a matchup of the top two teams in the nation. Not taking anything away from Duke-Ohio State, but if Kentucky wins (and does so convincingly, which is a lot to ask), I don't see the rankings changing for awhile.

That being said, as a UK fan, Ohio State is probably the one team in the NCAA field this year that scares me, even more than North Carolina. Craft is a more cerebral PG who would give Teague fits defensively, and he did a job on Knight last year. Davis is a completely different player from Harrellson, who held his own against Sullinger last year. With Davis being rail thin at the center position but playing like a guard, it would be the more intriguing matchup IMO.

cincrazy
11-30-2011, 03:12 PM
I don't think it's hyperbole (although my brother does lol) and it's no knock on Sullinger. I think Craft is THAT important. What do the Billy Donovans of Coach Ks of the world say after they play OSU? They rave about Craft. Not just the way he runs the offense, but his defensive intensity. Whoever he's guarding, eliminate them from the game. Sullinger is a very good player, but defensively, he's not that great. Craft may be the best perimeter defender in the nation. Factor in the way he runs the offense, if I had to pick one of the guys tomorrow to start my team with, I take Craft.

Clearly that opinion is in the minority, but I feel strongly about it. Jared is a stud. But guys in the post with length are gonna give him all kinds of problems, as UK did last year.

Brutus
11-30-2011, 06:37 PM
If Kentucky beats North Carolina, the rankings stay the same, period. I could see a case if Ohio State wins in Lawrence next week but UK-UNC before this week was a matchup of the top two teams in the nation. Not taking anything away from Duke-Ohio State, but if Kentucky wins (and does so convincingly, which is a lot to ask), I don't see the rankings changing for awhile.

That being said, as a UK fan, Ohio State is probably the one team in the NCAA field this year that scares me, even more than North Carolina. Craft is a more cerebral PG who would give Teague fits defensively, and he did a job on Knight last year. Davis is a completely different player from Harrellson, who held his own against Sullinger last year. With Davis being rail thin at the center position but playing like a guard, it would be the more intriguing matchup IMO.

You don't think 14-15 additional voters will put Ohio State No. 1 in their polls this week after a 22-point win against media darling Duke? I realize this is a silly debate, but I'll make a friendly wager just for the sake of bragging rights... unless UK outright blitzes Carolina this weekend, Ohio State will overtake them in the poll :)

Brutus
11-30-2011, 06:40 PM
I don't mean to say I don't like Sullinger as a player. I think he's good. He just doesn't make my eyes pop out, that's all.

Probably a David West-type player. Not an explosive talent, but well-schooled, nice touch, great hands and feet, good court sense, good passer, very persistent, great character, great teammate. Excellent college player. It's just that the TV guys were going ga-ga over him like he's the second coming of Dr. J and I'm like "really?".

If we're talking as an NBA player, sure. But you'd be hard-pressed to find a better college post player anywhere. He's the perfect college post guy, short of having a 7-6 winspan that also blocks five shots per game.

As an NBA prospect, you're right that he's not really that great. But when speaking specifically about college, he's every bit as good as advertised. That he can basically average 18/10 a game despite constant double and triple teams just goes to show how good he really is at this level.

15fan
11-30-2011, 07:16 PM
I can't remember the last time I saw Duke handled so easily. Coach K played some odd combinations. I almost got the feeling he treated it as a pre-season game and played a lot of guys to let them know how far they need to go to get ready for the ACC and the NCAAs.

The last time they got worked over like that was all the way back in March 2011. Arizona absolutely dismantled them in the 2nd half when they played in the NCAAs.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=310830150

That, too, was a glorious thing to behold.

Razor Shines
11-30-2011, 07:31 PM
The last time they got worked over like that was all the way back in March 2011. Arizona absolutely dismantled them in the 2nd half when they played in the NCAAs.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=310830150

That, too, was a glorious thing to behold.

Oh yeah? Well Chris Paul was at the game when K got 903 rooting for Duke. That has to sting.


I'm just messing with you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Scrap Irony
11-30-2011, 07:32 PM
You don't think 14-15 additional voters will put Ohio State No. 1 in their polls this week after a 22-point win against media darling Duke? I realize this is a silly debate, but I'll make a friendly wager just for the sake of bragging rights... unless UK outright blitzes Carolina this weekend, Ohio State will overtake them in the poll :)

IF Kentucky beats St. Johns and UNC, there's no way OSU overtakes UK in the polls. St. Johns is highly thought of and UNC is clearly in that upper tier of superior programs this season.

Duke is not. (Not enough athleticism at key spots.)

This is not to say OSU shouldn't be the top team. Just that they wouldn't be number one if Kentucky stays unbeaten through Sunday.

WVRed
11-30-2011, 07:32 PM
You don't think 14-15 additional voters will put Ohio State No. 1 in their polls this week after a 22-point win against media darling Duke? I realize this is a silly debate, but I'll make a friendly wager just for the sake of bragging rights... unless UK outright blitzes Carolina this weekend, Ohio State will overtake them in the poll :)

I'm more worried about how Kentucky stacks up against UNC early on. Of course, UK has home-court advantage, but I still think its a close game based on matchups. My feeling is UK loses and its a moot point, especially with a young team trying to hold onto the no 1 ranking.

Ohio State beat an overrated Duke team on their home court. If anything, it should show the talent disparity past UK-OSU-UNC-UConn.

Brutus
11-30-2011, 08:46 PM
IF Kentucky beats St. Johns and UNC, there's no way OSU overtakes UK in the polls. St. Johns is highly thought of and UNC is clearly in that upper tier of superior programs this season.

Duke is not. (Not enough athleticism at key spots.)

This is not to say OSU shouldn't be the top team. Just that they wouldn't be number one if Kentucky stays unbeaten through Sunday.

St. John's is a mess right now and are without Steve Lavin. They just lost to Northeastern by 14 points at home. Beating them isn't a feather in anyone's cap.

ESPN's fan nation poll has Ohio State getting 55% of the vote as to who should be No. 1 (Kentucky is getting 33%). The AP writers will probably fall in line with that kind of ratio.

People are downplaying Duke, and that's fine and all, but after the way UNC got beat up against UNLV, people are being highly presumptuous that Ohio State won't pick up a little over a dozen of UK's first place votes. It's very likely.

Brutus
11-30-2011, 08:48 PM
I'm more worried about how Kentucky stacks up against UNC early on. Of course, UK has home-court advantage, but I still think its a close game based on matchups. My feeling is UK loses and its a moot point, especially with a young team trying to hold onto the no 1 ranking.

Ohio State beat an overrated Duke team on their home court. If anything, it should show the talent disparity past UK-OSU-UNC-UConn.

I don't think Duke is overrated, to be honest. They were rated probably about where they should have been given the way the season has gone (although I think Florida is a bit better).

Scrap Irony
11-30-2011, 09:35 PM
Then let's make a sig bet, Brutus.

I've got me sig on the following: if Kentucky beats UNC and St. Johns (two fairly large if's, IMO), they'll stay number one, no matter how they beat UNC and St. Johns, with OSU number two.

Deal?

Brutus
11-30-2011, 10:08 PM
Then let's make a sig bet, Brutus.

I've got me sig on the following: if Kentucky beats UNC and St. Johns (two fairly large if's, IMO), they'll stay number one, no matter how they beat UNC and St. Johns, with OSU number two.

Deal?

I'm game under one qualifier: that Kentucky doesn't beat UNC by double-digits. If they win by 10 points or more, I think voters will be inclined to keep them at the top spot.

So yeah I'm game on that bet if Kentucky beats St. John's and UNC by <10.

traderumor
12-02-2011, 05:57 PM
I don't think it's hyperbole (although my brother does lol) and it's no knock on Sullinger. I think Craft is THAT important. What do the Billy Donovans of Coach Ks of the world say after they play OSU? They rave about Craft. Not just the way he runs the offense, but his defensive intensity. Whoever he's guarding, eliminate them from the game. Sullinger is a very good player, but defensively, he's not that great. Craft may be the best perimeter defender in the nation. Factor in the way he runs the offense, if I had to pick one of the guys tomorrow to start my team with, I take Craft.

Clearly that opinion is in the minority, but I feel strongly about it. Jared is a stud. But guys in the post with length are gonna give him all kinds of problems, as UK did last year.I'm not sure I understand how Craft getting rave reviews from opposing coaches makes him "the most important player on the team," which is your premise. That simply doesn't follow. You really don't have to go any farther than understanding the defensive attention that Sullinger gets to win the day in this discussion. I think if they lost either, they are going to slip from elite to very good immediately.

BuckeyeRed27
12-02-2011, 06:23 PM
I'm not sure I understand how Craft getting rave reviews from opposing coaches makes him "the most important player on the team," which is your premise. That simply doesn't follow. You really don't have to go any farther than understanding the defensive attention that Sullinger gets to win the day in this discussion. I think if they lost either, they are going to slip from elite to very good immediately.

I see it as Sullinger is certainly the best player on the team. If he went down there are enough other good players that they could change how they play and probably still be a Final 4 team.

If Craft goes down I think they are screwed. His backup cannot begin to replace what Craft does. Maybe they could figure it out, but I wouldn't be as comfortable.

Now hopefully we don't have to worry about it and they can both continue being awesome. :beerme:

traderumor
12-02-2011, 06:42 PM
I see it as Sullinger is certainly the best player on the team. If he went down there are enough other good players that they could change how they play and probably still be a Final 4 team.

If Craft goes down I think they are screwed. His backup cannot begin to replace what Craft does. Maybe they could figure it out, but I wouldn't be as comfortable.

Now hopefully we don't have to worry about it and they can both continue being awesome. :beerme:
No way are they a Final Four team on paper without Sullinger. I say on paper because the Final Four rarely has the 4 best teams in the field. Craft and Sullinger returning are why they are so good. One goes down, they're no longer in the same league as the big boys like UK, UNC, Duke, and probably even Wisconsin. Their supporting staff is too young and inexperienced to pick up that much slack.

BuckeyeRed27
12-02-2011, 06:49 PM
No way are they a Final Four team on paper without Sullinger. I say on paper because the Final Four rarely has the 4 best teams in the field. Craft and Sullinger returning are why they are so good. One goes down, they're no longer in the same league as the big boys like UK, UNC, Duke, and probably even Wisconsin. Their supporting staff is too young and inexperienced to pick up that much slack.

Disagree. A team of Craft, Buford and Thomas is still very good. They would play differently that they do now, but still very good.

Apparently we are going to find out how good because Sullinger has a back injury and is out for the game tomorrow and possibly longer.

Brutus
12-02-2011, 08:02 PM
Back spasms. Will miss tomorrow against UTPA, and questionable against Kansas, but not likely out for a significant amount of time.

traderumor
12-03-2011, 10:58 AM
Disagree. A team of Craft, Buford and Thomas is still very good. They would play differently that they do now, but still very good.

Apparently we are going to find out how good because Sullinger has a back injury and is out for the game tomorrow and possibly longer.We don't disagree on "very good." You originally said they are still a Final Four team, and that is different than saying "very good."

cincrazy
12-03-2011, 03:49 PM
Ewwwww. Maybe all of my talk in this regard has jinxed Sully, so I'll stop. Get healthy soon!

traderumor
12-05-2011, 09:33 AM
Ewwwww. Maybe all of my talk in this regard has jinxed Sully, so I'll stop. Get healthy soon!Of course, the game wasn't on to see how things went, but the numbers weren't pretty against a bad team. Shot a sizzling 38%. Yuk.

WVRed
12-05-2011, 01:52 PM
I'm game under one qualifier: that Kentucky doesn't beat UNC by double-digits. If they win by 10 points or more, I think voters will be inclined to keep them at the top spot.

So yeah I'm game on that bet if Kentucky beats St. John's and UNC by <10.

Maybe we should have made that sig bet. Kentucky with 19 first place votes to tOSU's 11.

This weekend will be a tough road test for both teams. Kentucky takes on an undefeated Indiana team that looks pretty good, while tOSU goes to Kansas.

bucksfan2
12-05-2011, 04:11 PM
Sullinger being out for a couple of weeks may make this team a better club going forward. With him in the lineup he was going to get the bulk of the minutes. With Sullinger on the bench for a week or two it may give his backups some quality PT in games. They may lose to Kansas but giving Ravanel and Williams some PT may just be the best thing for the team.

traderumor
12-05-2011, 04:17 PM
Sullinger being out for a couple of weeks may make this team a better club going forward. With him in the lineup he was going to get the bulk of the minutes. With Sullinger on the bench for a week or two it may give his backups some quality PT in games. They may lose to Kansas but giving Ravanel and Williams some PT may just be the best thing for the team.According to yesterday's news, Matta seemed to be confident of his return for Kansas. Is there more recent news?

Brutus
12-05-2011, 05:51 PM
According to yesterday's news, Matta seemed to be confident of his return for Kansas. Is there more recent news?

No... they were merely sitting him as a precautionary measure. He's likely to play this week. A final decision will be made in the next day or two, assuming no setbacks.

WMR
12-05-2011, 05:58 PM
So what is Scrap going to pick out for Brutus' sig?

Scrap Irony
12-05-2011, 09:56 PM
Brutus' new (two-week) sig:

Columbus, OH, home of scarlet-colored glasses since 1870

BuckeyeRed27
12-06-2011, 02:27 PM
Very sad news. Former Buckeye Brent Darby has passed away at age 30.

http://www.buckeyextra.com/content/blogs/hoops-and-scoops/2011/12/brent-darby-dies.html

cincrazy
12-06-2011, 02:27 PM
Former OSU guard Brent Darby has died in a Detroit hospital. Apparently he was hospitalized last night with blood clots in his legs, potentially stemming from a heart surgery he had earlier this year. Horrible news.

Brutus
12-06-2011, 05:13 PM
Former OSU guard Brent Darby has died in a Detroit hospital. Apparently he was hospitalized last night with blood clots in his legs, potentially stemming from a heart surgery he had earlier this year. Horrible news.

Definitely too early to pass on. I didn't used to bat an eye at these premature deaths when I was younger. I guess you just naturally feel invincible when you're a kid. But it's starting to get to the point in life where I realize how much that's not the case.

BuckeyeRed27
12-06-2011, 05:56 PM
Definitely too early to pass on. I didn't used to bat an eye at these premature deaths when I was younger. I guess you just naturally feel invincible when you're a kid. But it's starting to get to the point in life where I realize how much that's not the case.

I know what you mean. I'm 28. I had a class with Brent Darby. It just seems so weird that someone that young is no longer with us.

WMR
12-07-2011, 02:44 AM
Umm... is Brutus welching on his bet?? Just asking.

Brutus
12-07-2011, 06:04 AM
Umm... is Brutus welching on his bet?? Just asking.

There was never any bet actually made. There was talk of a bet... but that's all it was. No one ever agreed to any actual terms and said we're doing it. I was wrong either way, about my assertions, and in fact, Kentucky stayed atop the polls, so it really doesn't mater at this point.

I find it odd you care, however... especially since you were not involved in that banter. If you were so concerned by it, why are you just now, after the fact, chiming in?

WMR
12-07-2011, 09:31 AM
Just thought it was funny you were so adamant about something that, in fact, never happened. ;)

BTW: Question for you Buckeye fans: Which team do you think is going to be better overall, last year's team or this year's team?

bucksfan2
12-07-2011, 10:49 AM
Just thought it was funny you were so adamant about something that, in fact, never happened. ;)

BTW: Question for you Buckeye fans: Which team do you think is going to be better overall, last year's team or this year's team?

Interesting question. Sullinger, Craft, and Bufford all should be better over last year, or at least you would hope. They will miss Lighty the most and I think they will miss Lauderdale as well. I think Diebler's skill set will be missed at times but think his overall game is replaceable. I also think the bench has the ability to be deeper and improve as the season goes along. The big wildcard is DeShaun Thomas. If he can buy into the system and be the player he has been so far this year they will be very dangerous.

I think last year's team was the best in college basketball. Caught a draw in the tournament and had match up problems with UK. I think this team may be better than last year's team but I think all of college basketball is better. Finally I am firm believer that you don't win with freshman. You don't win when you best players are freshman. In the end its all about match ups.

Brutus
12-07-2011, 04:05 PM
Just thought it was funny you were so adamant about something that, in fact, never happened. ;)

BTW: Question for you Buckeye fans: Which team do you think is going to be better overall, last year's team or this year's team?

You've never been adamant about something that never happened? It just seems like poor form to go in and crow about something you took no stance about ahead of time. I'm sure if someone were motivated to go through the archives they could find plenty of 'misses' for anyone, yourself included.

Scrap Irony
12-07-2011, 04:22 PM
I thought there was a bet.


I'm game under one qualifier: that Kentucky doesn't beat UNC by double-digits. If they win by 10 points or more, I think voters will be inclined to keep them at the top spot.

So yeah I'm game on that bet if Kentucky beats St. John's and UNC by <10.

I offered. I thought you accepted.

But it doesn't really matter, I suppose.

Brutus
12-07-2011, 06:52 PM
I thought there was a bet.



I offered. I thought you accepted.

But it doesn't really matter, I suppose.

I said I'd only do it if it were under those qualifiers. You never said it was acceptable nor did we discuss terms (length, mainly). I never took that to be acceptance of any bet.

I have no problems admitting I was wrong... just don't see how that construed a bet since you never answered my follow-up.

I think it's comical that others (not you, obviously) are trying to get involved in wanting me to eat crow for something, after the fact, they never took a stance on.

traderumor
12-10-2011, 05:33 PM
Hopefully getting the chance to see what the Buckeyes look like without Sullinger will end all the talk of Craft being the most important player on the team.

I imagine that will help the Buckeyes as a team, but it was difficult to watch. Kansas looks like a very easy team to dislike. Self has always been smug and is only moreso in that place, Robinson is the kind of player that comes to mind when we were discussing the merits of Sullinger, lots of flash, not a whole lot of substance. He also was running his mouth at a Freshman the whole game, classy. The point guard doesn't take care of the ball. Not one of the better versions of Kansas.

As for the Buckeyes, my biggest concern for this team is the ability to shoot the ball. In both games without Sullinger, they have shot under 40% from the field. Buford can shoot, but he is inconsistent and seems to disappear to often over the course of his career. DeShaun Thomas may be the key to how deep the Bucks go this year. He seems to be the best option we have outside of Craft, Sullinger and Buford to make the offense Final Four class. But I am worried that we do not have enough balance on offense, which we saw some of that today. And the D today was atrocious. Maybe Sullinger is a better defender than I thought.

cincrazy
12-10-2011, 06:02 PM
Hopefully getting the chance to see what the Buckeyes look like without Sullinger will end all the talk of Craft being the most important player on the team.

I imagine that will help the Buckeyes as a team, but it was difficult to watch. Kansas looks like a very easy team to dislike. Self has always been smug and is only moreso in that place, Robinson is the kind of player that comes to mind when we were discussing the merits of Sullinger, lots of flash, not a whole lot of substance. He also was running his mouth at a Freshman the whole game, classy. The point guard doesn't take care of the ball. Not one of the better versions of Kansas.

As for the Buckeyes, my biggest concern for this team is the ability to shoot the ball. In both games without Sullinger, they have shot under 40% from the field. Buford can shoot, but he is inconsistent and seems to disappear to often over the course of his career. DeShaun Thomas may be the key to how deep the Bucks go this year. He seems to be the best option we have outside of Craft, Sullinger and Buford to make the offense Final Four class. But I am worried that we do not have enough balance on offense, which we saw some of that today. And the D today was atrocious. Maybe Sullinger is a better defender than I thought.

You're right, the inability to shoot kills them. I was taking nothing away from Sullinger when I argued that we could withstand his loss better than Craft's, but clearly that doesn't seem to be the case. But still, I think you can take some positives away from this game. Even without Sully, they were into the game until nearly the end. That's what sloppy D, turnovers, and not being able to shoot. If we play them later in the year on a neutral court with Sully we'll smash them.

traderumor
12-10-2011, 06:22 PM
You're right, the inability to shoot kills them. I was taking nothing away from Sullinger when I argued that we could withstand his loss better than Craft's, but clearly that doesn't seem to be the case. But still, I think you can take some positives away from this game. Even without Sully, they were into the game until nearly the end. That's what sloppy D, turnovers, and not being able to shoot. If we play them later in the year on a neutral court with Sully we'll smash them.I know you weren't, and I totally get the importance of the point guard. It also doesn't mean that as the team develops over the course of the year, that some new key guys won't step forward. But all things being equal right now, Sullinger and Craft symbiotically make the Buckeyes a legitimate favorite to be a Final Four team, whereby if you lose either, the team is very good, but not elite team.

DeShaun Thomas is really coming along though. That was the biggest positive I had. I also think in today's game, if Craft and Buford had got going earlier, it would have been a different game. They needed someone to give an unexpected performance today, and they just didn't get it.

cincrazy
12-10-2011, 06:27 PM
I know you weren't, and I totally get the importance of the point guard. It also doesn't mean that as the team develops over the course of the year, that some new key guys won't step forward. But all things being equal right now, Sullinger and Craft symbiotically make the Buckeyes a legitimate favorite to be a Final Four team, whereby if you lose either, the team is very good, but not elite team.

DeShaun Thomas is really coming along though. That was the biggest positive I had. I also think in today's game, if Craft and Buford had got going earlier, it would have been a different game. They needed someone to give an unexpected performance today, and they just didn't get it.

Agreed. Buford and Craft were nonexistent until late. I thought the team played hesitant and unsure of itself. Even beyond Sullinger's impact on the court racking up stats, I think he's also the emotional leader of that team. Just watching him on the bench and his interactions with his teammates, I became convinced they REALLY missed him on the court. Not just because of his play, but because of his leadership.

Thomas is looking really good so far this season. I think by the end of the year, this team will be straight up deadly. It's already, really, really good.

Buckeye33
12-10-2011, 06:29 PM
The Bucks could not get over the "hump" at any point in this game today. They would get it down to 4 or 6 and then give up a wide open 3 or easy shot to Robinson.

The perimeter D is what cost them the most today. Thomas has no clue how to play D on the pick an roll and simply is not even an average defensive player. He is very good on the offensive end but he gives up pretty much everything he scores on the defensive end.

Craft looked spent in the 2nd half today. He needs to have his minutes reduced from now until the B10 starts.

With that stuff said they still hung around in one of the toughest places to play in the country without their far and away best player. No one stepped up on the offensive end except Thomas and Buford and they did it in separate halves.

I really think LaQuinton Ross could end up being the key to this team if he is as good as everyone keeps saying. 6'8" SF who can shoot and post up. He will be a welcome addition.

traderumor
12-10-2011, 06:59 PM
The Bucks could not get over the "hump" at any point in this game today. They would get it down to 4 or 6 and then give up a wide open 3 or easy shot to Robinson.

The perimeter D is what cost them the most today. Thomas has no clue how to play D on the pick an roll and simply is not even an average defensive player. He is very good on the offensive end but he gives up pretty much everything he scores on the defensive end.

Craft looked spent in the 2nd half today. He needs to have his minutes reduced from now until the B10 starts.

With that stuff said they still hung around in one of the toughest places to play in the country without their far and away best player. No one stepped up on the offensive end except Thomas and Buford and they did it in separate halves.

I really think LaQuinton Ross could end up being the key to this team if he is as good as everyone keeps saying. 6'8" SF who can shoot and post up. He will be a welcome addition.Yea, I'm anxious to see what the deal is with Ross. This was a pleasant surprise for me, didn't know they had another guy to add until reading about it this week.

texasdave
12-14-2011, 09:48 PM
Jared Sullinger was back in action tonight. 12 points and 10 boards in 25 minutes of action.

BuckeyeRed27
12-17-2011, 01:48 PM
DeShaun Thomas. That is all.

reds1869
12-17-2011, 01:54 PM
X-rays were negative today on Sullinger. Good news for OSU and every team in the 2012 NBA Draft Lottery.

WMR
12-17-2011, 02:33 PM
Bad back, gimpy foot... looking a bit like Greg Oden, part deux.

He likely cost himself a boatload of money coming back to school.

Brutus
12-17-2011, 02:35 PM
Bad back, gimpy foot... looking a bit like Greg Oden, part deux.

He likely cost himself a boatload of money coming back to school.

None of those injuries will have any impact on his draft status. You're making mountains out of molehills...

reds1869
12-17-2011, 02:36 PM
None of those injuries will have any impact on his draft status. You're making mountains out of molehills...

I agree. Unless Sullinger loses a leg this winter someone in the top handful of picks will select him. Kyrie Irving went #1 after playing only 11 games last year.

WMR
12-17-2011, 02:41 PM
A chronic bad back couldn't effect his draft status? Sure.

Hopefully for his sake he can get healthy and demonstrate an ability to stay that way.

Brutus
12-17-2011, 02:57 PM
A chronic bad back couldn't effect his draft status? Sure.

Hopefully for his sake he can get healthy and demonstrate an ability to stay that way.

Perhaps you should check the definition of the word "chronic."

Sullinger has never had back troubles in his entire life and missed two games total. His back is fine, now, and doctors have told him they don't believe it will be a problem that lingers.

The gratuitous usage of the word "chronic" has no applicability here.

WMR
12-17-2011, 03:19 PM
Uh huh, we will see.

I'll be pulling for the kid to stay healthy. I like his workman-like approach to the game.

traderumor
12-17-2011, 03:32 PM
The Buckeyes are fortunate that the Sullinger injuries are occurring now when they are not impacting any of their team goals, which I assume are to win the Big 10 regular season, the Big 10 Tournament, and the National Championship. All of the other drama is ESPN trying to drum up interest in pre-conference games.

bucksfan2
12-17-2011, 07:17 PM
The Buckeyes are fortunate that the Sullinger injuries are occurring now when they are not impacting any of their team goals, which I assume are to win the Big 10 regular season, the Big 10 Tournament, and the National Championship. All of the other drama is ESPN trying to drum up interest in pre-conference games.

It will make the team better. OSU is getting scoring from Thomas, getting important minutes from Williams, and having Ravenel getting some more experience. A capable Williams makes Sullinger foul trouble in a big game a little easier to swallow.

I am not stressing out at all about Sullinger. With Sullinger this team is a legit threat to win it all. And as long as he is healthy heading towards February they will be just fine.

traderumor
12-17-2011, 09:13 PM
Something that is developing fast and very exciting for this team's prospects is Thomas as an offensive force. Today was exciting not because he scored 30 points, but because most of his points came from within the workings of the offense.

WMR
12-17-2011, 11:14 PM
Perhaps you should check the definition of the word "chronic."

Sullinger has never had back troubles in his entire life and missed two games total. His back is fine, now, and doctors have told him they don't believe it will be a problem that lingers.

The gratuitous usage of the word "chronic" has no applicability here.

I never said the kid has a chronic bad back. I merely stated that a player with a chronic bad back could see his draft status negatively impacted.

"IF" he was to lose more time due to a back condition that absolutely could give NBA GMs pause when evaluating where to take him in the lottery. I'm not suggesting he's going to fall out of the lottery or into the 2nd round. He's obviously a quality player.

He's still got the majority of the season to demonstrate that he is healthy and that these injuries were merely minor hiccups along the way.

I for one am pulling for him to do just that.

BTW: Matta is a helluva coach. He always speaks respectfully of his opponents and I really like the way he recruits and puts a team together.

*BaseClogger*
12-18-2011, 12:10 AM
BTW: Matta is a helluva guy/recruiter. He always speaks respectfully of his opponents and I really like the way he recruits and puts a team together.

Fixed. His teams have been a continual disappointment since his first couple of years...

Captain Hook
12-18-2011, 01:02 AM
Fixed. His teams have been a continual disappointment since his first couple of years...

They haven't done well in the NCAA tournament but his teams have done well overall.When you average around 27 wins a year your teams are doing good.If you mean they have disappointed in the big dance then I'd agree.

Brutus
12-18-2011, 01:53 AM
Fixed. His teams have been a continual disappointment since his first couple of years...

Really depends what you value. If you judge solely based on the NCAA Tournament, I suppose it's debatable. He's had five Sweet 16 appearances in 11 years, twice getting to the Elite 8 and a Final Four, but his teams have underperformed their seed on three occasions at Ohio State, so that is fair play. By any other measure, though, it's not the best critique.

As mentioned, he has still been to the second weekend of the NCAA Tournament five times with an NIT title to boot. He's won eight conference regular season titles in 11 seasons and won his conference tournament six of the 11 years he's been a coach. He's second only to John Calipari among active coaches with 5 or more seasons in winning percentage, is one of only two coaches (Mark Few being the other) to have won at least 20 games in every single season of 10 or more, and he has a 65-14 record in March (83%).

Honestly, the only thing Matta is missing right now is the championship. Those aren't easy to get, as Calipari can attest to. Roy Williams didn't get one until his 17th season as a head coach.

So I guess it goes back to my first point... what do you value? Are 30-win seasons, conference titles and Sweet 16 appearances sufficient? Tom Izzo is a master at Final Four runs, but interestingly he has only a few conference titles of any sort.

Me personally... I love college basketball and cherish the entire season as a whole. I think the tournament is an awesome experience, and would like to think any team could carry its success deep into the bracket. That said, only one team that makes it to the NCAA Tournament will be able to say it won its last game. I'd prefer to take the entire year into account when judging any coach rather than focus too much on a small stretch at the end.

Brutus
12-18-2011, 01:59 AM
I never said the kid has a chronic bad back. I merely stated that a player with a chronic bad back could see his draft status negatively impacted.

"IF" he was to lose more time due to a back condition that absolutely could give NBA GMs pause when evaluating where to take him in the lottery. I'm not suggesting he's going to fall out of the lottery or into the 2nd round. He's obviously a quality player.

He's still got the majority of the season to demonstrate that he is healthy and that these injuries were merely minor hiccups along the way.

I for one am pulling for him to do just that.

BTW: Matta is a helluva coach. He always speaks respectfully of his opponents and I really like the way he recruits and puts a team together.

I absolutely agree that a chronic back problem would be a red flag for NBA executives. No disagreements there. But there's really no evidence of that being the case in this situation. Team doctors have already told him they have no reason to believe this will be an issue again unless it's caused by a completely new set of circumstances.

Personally I think Sullinger will have a good but not great NBA career anyhow. He's considered a 'safe' pick in that most teams have an idea what they'll get out of him, which is why he'll go in the lottery, but I don't think he had much to gain or lose either way by staying. Most injuries don't have a huge impact on the draft anyhow. Every once in a while you'll see a situation like Da'Sean Butler, but that seems to be the exception more than the rule with modern science.

*BaseClogger*
12-18-2011, 02:23 AM
Really depends what you value. If you judge solely based on the NCAA Tournament, I suppose it's debatable. He's had five Sweet 16 appearances in 11 years, twice getting to the Elite 8 and a Final Four, but his teams have underperformed their seed on three occasions at Ohio State, so that is fair play. By any other measure, though, it's not the best critique.

As mentioned, he has still been to the second weekend of the NCAA Tournament five times with an NIT title to boot. He's won eight conference regular season titles in 11 seasons and won his conference tournament six of the 11 years he's been a coach. He's second only to John Calipari among active coaches with 5 or more seasons in winning percentage, is one of only two coaches (Mark Few being the other) to have won at least 20 games in every single season of 10 or more, and he has a 65-14 record in March (83%).

Honestly, the only thing Matta is missing right now is the championship. Those aren't easy to get, as Calipari can attest to. Roy Williams didn't get one until his 17th season as a head coach.

So I guess it goes back to my first point... what do you value? Are 30-win seasons, conference titles and Sweet 16 appearances sufficient? Tom Izzo is a master at Final Four runs, but interestingly he has only a few conference titles of any sort.

Me personally... I love college basketball and cherish the entire season as a whole. I think the tournament is an awesome experience, and would like to think any team could carry its success deep into the bracket. That said, only one team that makes it to the NCAA Tournament will be able to say it won its last game. I'd prefer to take the entire year into account when judging any coach rather than focus too much on a small stretch at the end.

I love quantifying stuff and yada yada but... it's simple to me: at the end of almost every season I have felt disappointed while my MSU friends experience the thrill of a Final Four. I'd be more pleased to have what MSU has had than what Matta has given us. That's just how I feel...

traderumor
12-18-2011, 12:09 PM
I love quantifying stuff and yada yada but... it's simple to me: at the end of almost every season I have felt disappointed while my MSU friends experience the thrill of a Final Four. I'd be more pleased to have what MSU has had than what Matta has given us. That's just how I feel...OSU and MSU are trending opposite directions. Izzo's teams have been getting thinner and thinner in talent, this one being the least talented MSU team I can remember during his tenure. I'd say Izzo is a tiring elder statesman (fading star) while Matta is still at the top of his game (star in his prime).

dabvu2498
12-18-2011, 03:11 PM
OSU and MSU are trending opposite directions. Izzo's teams have been getting thinner and thinner in talent, this one being the least talented MSU team I can remember during his tenure. I'd say Izzo is a tiring elder statesman (fading star) while Matta is still at the top of his game (star in his prime).

Izzo is only 56. And it's hard for me to think of a guy that coached teams to 2 straight Final 4 appearances just 2 years ago as a "fading star."

Last year was tough for them with Lucious' conduct issues and various injuries (Delvon Roe specifically). And they played a brutal nonconference schedule, as they do every year.

His last 2 recruiting classes have been solid and this year's team looks pretty good despite their lack of experience. Their only losses have been to UNC (12 points) and Duke (5 points). They've dusted the "lesser" teams on their schedule and went on the road to beat Gonzaga.

Also, for comparison to Matta... For Matta to reach "Izzo status," over the next 12 years (Matta is 44) he'll have to win a national championship, reach 5 more Sweet 16s, 5 more Elite 8s, and 5 more Final 4s. It could happen, but that would be a pretty exceptional run.

I like Matta, but Izzo has set a pretty high standard.

BuckeyeRed27
12-28-2011, 07:27 PM
Nice way to start conference play. Wasn't able to watch any of it but the good guys beat NW 87-54. Looks like Buford and Sullinger led the way.

traderumor
12-28-2011, 08:36 PM
The Bucks showed off depth tonight. Because of foul trouble, Sullinger and Craft were on the bench for a key portion of the second half and the bench increased the lead from 15 to 19 points while they were out. Northwestern was clearly overmatched. Most importantly, OSU controlled the tempo, as the score clearly indicates. The key to this was offensive rebounding in the first half and one and done on the defensive end in the second half.

Very impressive opener.

izzy's dad
12-29-2011, 10:08 AM
Top to bottom, this might be the most talented squad OSU has had in a long time.

sonny
12-30-2011, 11:16 AM
While not an avid basketball fan, I love how this team shapes up from top to bottom. The depth they have is the best it's been in a long time and Matta and his staff has done a superb job in developing the talent on the roster.

Ohayou
12-31-2011, 08:15 PM
Buford...

BuckeyeRed27
12-31-2011, 08:16 PM
I hate blaming losses on refs, but I believe the outcome of that game would have been different with some better officiating. That said the Bucks last two or three possessions were awful.

5TimeWSChamps
12-31-2011, 08:27 PM
Prayers sent to Any OSU fan there.

Worst fans in the country

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk

Buckeye33
12-31-2011, 08:41 PM
I hate blaming losses on refs, but I believe the outcome of that game would have been different with some better officiating. That said the Bucks last two or three possessions were awful.

Refs were bad for both teams. OSU lost because they played terrible interior defense and were sloppy with the ball. They have been sloppy with the ball for a month now, even when they are playing the cupcakes they still turned it over way to much.

Craft had his worse floor game of the year. He panicked some down the stretch and they did not get Sullinger the ball at the end of the game after Zellar fouled out.

This team has to gAnet much much better before March if they plan on making it past the Sweet 16.

I'm terrified that they are going to get matched up with a long athletic team early in the NCAA. Sullinger, Thomas, and Ravenel are not elite athletes. Sullinger gets his shot blocked by backup caliber players a lot and is always falling down. And do not get me started on how awful Thomas is on the defensive end.

All that said, one loss does not ruin a basketball season. Just need to get back in the gym and fix the defensive issues.

Brutus
12-31-2011, 10:35 PM
Refs were bad for both teams. OSU lost because they played terrible interior defense and were sloppy with the ball. They have been sloppy with the ball for a month now, even when they are playing the cupcakes they still turned it over way to much.

Craft had his worse floor game of the year. He panicked some down the stretch and they did not get Sullinger the ball at the end of the game after Zellar fouled out.

This team has to gAnet much much better before March if they plan on making it past the Sweet 16.

I'm terrified that they are going to get matched up with a long athletic team early in the NCAA. Sullinger, Thomas, and Ravenel are not elite athletes. Sullinger gets his shot blocked by backup caliber players a lot and is always falling down. And do not get me started on how awful Thomas is on the defensive end.

All that said, one loss does not ruin a basketball season. Just need to get back in the gym and fix the defensive issues.

I agree with most of what you say. I think the one argument that could be made, though, is that Ohio State was up 10 and showing signs of pulling away when the refs decided to keep the game close in the first half. That stretch of about 8 minutes from the 12-minute mark down to the under-4 timeout was probably the worst I've ever seen in my lifetime of watching basketball... and I'm not at all exaggerating to make a point. I truly believe it was that bad. Sometimes there's home cooking. Other times there's real, honest-to-goodness home cooking. The refs singlehandedly got Indiana back into a game they weren't in.

I'm not blaming the game on the refs, mind you. I think the second half was evenly called (badly) on both sides. In fact, Indiana adjusted to the game's flow better than Ohio State did and made the plays they needed to make down the stretch. Ohio State got careless with the ball and made too many mistakes. I think had that stretch in the first half not happened, without knowing what would have happened, it was clear what seemed awfully likely to happen until the officiating took over.

Nonetheless, Ohio State had 20 minutes to adjust to that absurdity. Indiana did a much better job of it.

I truly commend Tom Crean for the focus on exploiting Buford on those ball screens. Ohio State by rule switches all perimeter screens 1-through-4. With Buford playing matador defense over concern of fouling out, Indiana basically gave the green light to anyone that drew him on those switches. That adjustment by Indiana was what got them the win.

Hoosier Red
12-31-2011, 10:38 PM
Refs were bad for both teams. OSU lost because they played terrible interior defense and were sloppy with the ball. They have been sloppy with the ball for a month now, even when they are playing the cupcakes they still turned it over way to much.

Craft had his worse floor game of the year. He panicked some down the stretch and they did not get Sullinger the ball at the end of the game after Zellar fouled out.

This team has to gAnet much much better before March if they plan on making it past the Sweet 16.

I'm terrified that they are going to get matched up with a long athletic team early in the NCAA. Sullinger, Thomas, and Ravenel are not elite athletes. Sullinger gets his shot blocked by backup caliber players a lot and is always falling down. And do not get me started on how awful Thomas is on the defensive end.

All that said, one loss does not ruin a basketball season. Just need to get back in the gym and fix the defensive issues.

I think OSU is more susceptible to ticky tack officiating because of the large drop off from Sullinger to the next guy on the depth chart and relatively short bench. Of course I would say the same thing about Indiana. Pritchard and Elston played some big minutes tonight.

Reds/Flyers Fan
01-01-2012, 02:34 AM
Doesn't matter. Indiana returns the visit to Columbus in two weeks (Jan. 15), and it'll be a different story. Bucks by 20.

traderumor
01-01-2012, 09:10 AM
Not much more to add to the summations given so far. The Northwestern game had a lot of fouls called also. My guess is that there was the obligatory pre-conference referee meeting, points of emphasis were made that "this is a foul, that is a foul, keep your eye out for this and call it" and it practically played out in excessive whistles. They'll go back to their own style of officiating, or the league will say "what are you guys doing? You can't call a foul on every bit of contact. You're disrupting the flow of the games."

And I think Brutus nailed it as to the turning point in the game, which was a blown call on Sullinger for the charge when the guy slid in under while he was in the air. Late in the game, Sullinger has perfect position, gets barrelled over, block and a key basket counts.

Another turning point was when OSU allowed IU to turn the game into a out of control up tempo game. When OSU was running their offense in the early going, IU had no answers. A few calls go their way, Bucks get in foul trouble, and they start playing kamikaze basketball. Not their game, but it sure is IU's right now.

Officiating out of the way, Craft was not a good point guard yesterday. Regardless of why (officiating, poor D), IU has a lot of offensive weapons. IU is better right now than I thought they were. And they didn't rush the floor, so their fans are growing as well ;) Matta has a lot of coachable moments to take away from that game, esp. about executing when the game is on the line.


One side note: I have to give Dan Dakich credit for being a very professional, non-biased announcer. He did not get into any homerism at all, if you didn't know it beforehand, you wouldn't have known he was an IU guy.

Oh, and one more thing. Tom Crean is one annoying dude. Not sure what it is, but he bothers me, alfalfa hairdo, body language, something.

SunDeck
01-01-2012, 11:10 AM
Doesn't matter. Indiana returns the visit to Columbus in two weeks (Jan. 15), and it'll be a different story. Bucks by 20.

I think this is the great thing about conference play, when winning in another team's house is never a certainty no matter what the national rankings say (although I can't explain what the heck happened in Madison yesterday).

I'm looking forward to seeing the Big Ten beat each other up this season. Makes for some great basketball and I think it makes them all better. And now that XU has completely fallen off my radar of admired teams, I feel free to root for a Thad Matta team :D.

Buckeye33
01-10-2012, 03:38 PM
Tonights game should be a good test for the Buckeyes. Illinois is undefeated at home so far this season and the Bucks have struggled on the road.

Sullinger is going to go up against someone who is 7'1" and athletic in Leonard. That will be a big challenge for Sullinger.

Depending on how the game is called, I think OSU pulls out a 5-7 point win.

Scrap Irony
01-10-2012, 04:42 PM
Really interested in seeing Sullinger play against Leonard. Might be a precursor as to how effective he'll be in the pros.

traderumor
01-10-2012, 07:50 PM
I'll be suprised if this game is close. Illinois barely beat Nebraska at home on Sunday. Famous last words but that's my prediction.

BuckeyeRed27
01-10-2012, 11:08 PM
We need to win a freaking road game. I know that kid played out if his mind but this is the third time the execution down the stretch has been dreadful.

traderumor
01-10-2012, 11:13 PM
I'll be suprised if this game is close. Illinois barely beat Nebraska at home on Sunday. Famous last words but that's my prediction.
What was this idiot thinking?

All I got to say is this team has a long way to go to climb back up the mountain.

Buford, man, he has got to be one of the most frustrating players, just very careless with the ball and is not a consistent outside threat.

The achilles heel is outside shooting. That needs to change or they are going to continue to struggle on the road against even an average team. That was my early take on the team, and it continues to be a problem.

But then, when it comes down to it, a guy in the zone has led to many upsets. Tonight, that was what it came down to, no matter how much slobbering Dakich did over Leonard (it was getting Vitale gushy, ick).

But then, when you're most experienced player is also the most careless player on the floor...

Razor Shines
01-10-2012, 11:13 PM
We need to win a freaking road game. I know that kid played out if his mind but this is the third time the execution down the stretch has been dreadful.

I don't think that game really says much about OSU one way or the other. Not only did Paul have the game of his life, Illinois as a team was ridiculous from 3.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

traderumor
01-10-2012, 11:16 PM
I don't think that game really says much about OSU one way or the other. Not only did Paul have the game of his life, Illinois as a team was ridiculous from 3.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYea, probably. What it says to me is that Bruce Weber has the age old problem type team, playing to the level of competition. Barely slide by Nebraska Sunday, just cracking 50 points, then light it up from 3 tonight.

But Ohio State really worries me as having a ton of talent, but they just don't have the outside threat to kick it into another gear.

texasdave
01-11-2012, 06:42 AM
Neither team had a player off the bench score a point.

Hoosier Red
01-11-2012, 08:56 AM
That's not unusual for the Buckeyes Texas Dave, but I'm surprised that Illinois was able to stay with them. It seems like teams that have success against OSU are the ones that have some guys off the bench who can score in the few minutes when the Buckeyes starters go to the bench.

traderumor
01-11-2012, 09:27 AM
This team just isn't getting it done on the road for whatever reason. But each time I want to give them grief, this game still comes down to Paul's historic night.

However, Mr. Paul, getting in Buford's and Sully's face will probably mean a rough night at the Schott. I was waiting for a taunting technical like Amir Williams for simply doing a shout after a dunk one game. Guess that was a preseason rule.

BuckeyeRed27
01-15-2012, 06:20 PM
Hoo's your daddy? :)

Razor Shines
01-15-2012, 06:40 PM
Hoo's your daddy? :)

Lol!! Oh man, very clever. Because we're the Hoosiers and it kinda sounds like "who's your" and you guys just beat us like you were our daddy. I hadnt seen that all put together before.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BuckeyeRed27
01-15-2012, 06:43 PM
Lol!! Oh man, very clever. Because we're the Hoosiers and it kinda sounds like "who's your" and you guys just beat us like you were our daddy. I hadnt seen that all put together before.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You mad?

Hoosier Red
01-15-2012, 08:53 PM
Well as Marty would say, that was a good old fashioned butt whooping. It's a bad sign when I felt good that IU was only down 21 at half time.

bucksfan2
01-16-2012, 08:28 AM
Well as Marty would say, that was a good old fashioned butt whooping. It's a bad sign when I felt good that IU was only down 21 at half time.

I actually thought that after a good start OSU played pretty lackluster basketball. But they did play good defense until about 5 minutes left in the game.

Talking about OSU they need a 6th man to step up. I was shocked to see Smith Jr. go off because he looked bad against Illinois. But I still think they need a spark off the bench, something that Thad has not really done during the past few years.

Indiana to me seems like a boom or bust team. They seem too reliant on the 3 ball which can be good and can be very bad. It can get especially tough on the road because of different backdrops. Crean has them playing very hard and a tough style of basketball. They just need to ease the reliance of the 3 ball.

Hoosier Red
01-16-2012, 08:38 AM
Indiana to me seems like a boom or bust team. They seem too reliant on the 3 ball which can be good and can be very bad. It can get especially tough on the road because of different backdrops. Crean has them playing very hard and a tough style of basketball. They just need to ease the reliance of the 3 ball.

I think it's easy to draw that conclusion from the last week especially. But when Indiana's playing well, the three point shot is a much smaller percentage of the overall game.

What Indiana hasn't done a great job of is establishing any half court offense. IU usually does a good job of creating points from defense and transitioning to offense, but that hasn't been the case going all the way back to the Michigan game.

Hoosier Red
01-16-2012, 08:44 AM
I actually thought that after a good start OSU played pretty lackluster basketball. But they did play good defense until about 5 minutes left in the game.

Talking about OSU they need a 6th man to step up. I was shocked to see Smith Jr. go off because he looked bad against Illinois. But I still think they need a spark off the bench, something that Thad has not really done during the past few years.



The image I got was of the bully putting his hand on the little kid's forehead as the little kid tries and tries to connect with anything. IU always seemed to be one decent run from getting back into the game and that run never came.

Smith Jr. must really like playing Indiana, if you hold everything else constant and hold him to his career average, IU wins.(I'm only half joking. It seemed like the initial game plan was to always double off of him, and he certainly made IU pay.)

Is that just how Matta operates, or has that only been the case the last two years where OSU has gone only 7-8 deep and the bench was mainly for decoration?

bucksfan2
01-16-2012, 08:56 AM
I think it's easy to draw that conclusion from the last week especially. But when Indiana's playing well, the three point shot is a much smaller percentage of the overall game.

What Indiana hasn't done a great job of is establishing any half court offense. IU usually does a good job of creating points from defense and transitioning to offense, but that hasn't been the case going all the way back to the Michigan game.

I haven't seen much of IU play so I will defer to you on that. They did say that IU makes the most number of 3's/game in the Big Ten. Anytime you have a team like that they will look bad when they aren't knocking down the shots. They said they averaged 8/game which is around 1/3 of your scoring offense.

That may have been the best D that I have seen OSU play since the Duke game. They harrassed a less talented team and made them take bad shots. The defense was unrelenting until about the 5 minute mark when it got sloppy.

As for Zeller I wasn't all that impressed. Nice player but not as good as he was hyped to be. He will be a good developmental player but not the type of guy with an immediate bigtime impact.

traderumor
01-16-2012, 09:56 AM
I think it's easy to draw that conclusion from the last week especially. But when Indiana's playing well, the three point shot is a much smaller percentage of the overall game.

What Indiana hasn't done a great job of is establishing any half court offense. IU usually does a good job of creating points from defense and transitioning to offense, but that hasn't been the case going all the way back to the Michigan game.Perhaps that is due to the adjustments that I spoke of in the IU thread. Defenses in the league scout, see what they're doing, take it away. IU will have to adjust to that, if they can, meaning if personnel allows them to counter what opponents have devised to take away IU's strengths. That is a talent question.

As for yesterday's game, Ohio State is going to be tough for anyone at home or on a neutral floor. The road is their kryptonite for now. Hopefully they figure that out.

Hoosier Red
01-17-2012, 08:45 AM
Perhaps that is due to the adjustments that I spoke of in the IU thread. Defenses in the league scout, see what they're doing, take it away. IU will have to adjust to that, if they can, meaning if personnel allows them to counter what opponents have devised to take away IU's strengths. That is a talent question.

As for yesterday's game, Ohio State is going to be tough for anyone at home or on a neutral floor. The road is their kryptonite for now. Hopefully they figure that out.

That's true. Dan Dakich said that the B1G Ten scouts better than any other league, don't know if that's true, but it certainly explains the discrepancy some teams have once conference play starts. What really concerns me is that IU hasn't been able to stop anybody.

traderumor
01-29-2012, 03:27 PM
Bump to the Bucks for a hard-earned win over TSUN.

This team can play D. They gave up a few open 3s, but man, they played some long possessions and Michigan still didn't get good shots.

I am still puzzled as to why Michigan came out in man to man D for the second half after playing to an ugly draw with a 2-3 zone in the first half. Seems like an adjustment for the sake of adjusting.

As for Lenzelle Smith, Jr., he makes another team pay with a big day when the opponent game planned to stop Sullinger at all costs. This is eventually going to be scrapped as a strategy as Smith proves that he can rise to the challenge, and Sully will benefit from Ds being more reluctant to double and triple down and leaving Smith. Of course, this was a little bit different than the IU game, where a lot of his points were put backs in this one.

Finally, cudos to the bench for getting a little run and energy right before half, especially Shannon Scott.

bucksfan2
01-30-2012, 08:27 AM
Bump to the Bucks for a hard-earned win over TSUN.

This team can play D. They gave up a few open 3s, but man, they played some long possessions and Michigan still didn't get good shots.

I am still puzzled as to why Michigan came out in man to man D for the second half after playing to an ugly draw with a 2-3 zone in the first half. Seems like an adjustment for the sake of adjusting.

As for Lenzelle Smith, Jr., he makes another team pay with a big day when the opponent game planned to stop Sullinger at all costs. This is eventually going to be scrapped as a strategy as Smith proves that he can rise to the challenge, and Sully will benefit from Ds being more reluctant to double and triple down and leaving Smith. Of course, this was a little bit different than the IU game, where a lot of his points were put backs in this one.

Finally, cudos to the bench for getting a little run and energy right before half, especially Shannon Scott.

Watching UM play basketball is difficult. They take the air out of the ball and really play a boring style of basketball. They are not a team you want to play in the tournament because they get a lead on you and you may never get a chance to come back.

I remember watching the Illinois debacle and thinking to myself, Smith Jr isn't cutting it. He was the 5th man on the court who really didn't do much. He was getting eaten alive by Paul and wasn't contributing anything to the offensive end. But then there was IU and Smith went off and seems like his confidence has been high ever since. If they can get him playing like he did yesterday they can win it all.

Kudos to Thad for getting more guys into the lineup during contested minutes. I am actually a little disappointed that Amir Williams isn't getting more PT. He was playing ok against Kansas when Sullinger was out but hasn't seen any important minutes since.

traderumor
01-30-2012, 09:46 AM
Watching UM play basketball is difficult. They take the air out of the ball and really play a boring style of basketball. They are not a team you want to play in the tournament because they get a lead on you and you may never get a chance to come back.

I remember watching the Illinois debacle and thinking to myself, Smith Jr isn't cutting it. He was the 5th man on the court who really didn't do much. He was getting eaten alive by Paul and wasn't contributing anything to the offensive end. But then there was IU and Smith went off and seems like his confidence has been high ever since. If they can get him playing like he did yesterday they can win it all.

Kudos to Thad for getting more guys into the lineup during contested minutes. I am actually a little disappointed that Amir Williams isn't getting more PT. He was playing ok against Kansas when Sullinger was out but hasn't seen any important minutes since.I had not had the opportunity to watch them other than a minute or two here and there, but I'd have to agree. Zone D, Northwestern style offense. It seems like it is stifling talents like Burke and Hardaway while featuring an average/below average center to get a few easy baskets on cuts.

It is pretty to watch the execution on those things, but would seem better to be a part of the offense to be used within a scheme that better fits talented guard play. Of course, not having seen them play alot, that is just a one game observation. The Ohio State D may have had something to do with limiting the damage of the guards from their normal game.

I don't get the Williams behind Ravenal, either. Ravenal is wasted space out there, seems to think he can shoot, and can't catch the basketball.

bucksfan2
01-30-2012, 10:10 AM
I had not had the opportunity to watch them other than a minute or two here and there, but I'd have to agree. Zone D, Northwestern style offense. It seems like it is stifling talents like Burke and Hardaway while featuring an average/below average center to get a few easy baskets on cuts.

It is pretty to watch the execution on those things, but would seem better to be a part of the offense to be used within a scheme that better fits talented guard play. Of course, not having seen them play alot, that is just a one game observation. The Ohio State D may have had something to do with limiting the damage of the guards from their normal game.

I don't get the Williams behind Ravenal, either. Ravenal is wasted space out there, seems to think he can shoot, and can't catch the basketball.

I actually thought UM's method was working in the first half against OSU. The 2-3 or 3-2 or 2-1-2 zone was preventing Sullinger from getting off. It almost looked like Syracuse's zone and was really preventing any kind of offensive flow. Why in the world they switched to man, 1-3-1, and then a 3/4 court press is beyond me. Because of Craft and Bufford they are extremely difficult to press and throw exotic traps at them. Anytime you extend the court against OSU is a bad thing. Craft is very good at beating a press, Bufford is very good off the bounce, Thomas is good when he can find his spots in trasition, and Sullinger is a beast who knows how to get to the blocks.

I actually think the best way to beat OSU is to play a tight zone, or man, double Sullinger when he touches it, and make Craft and Smith Jr. beat you. Your playing with fire but its better than letting Sully, Bufford, or Thomas to go off.

traderumor
02-04-2012, 09:35 PM
There were enough bricks layed to keep the wolf out today. Man, ugly shooting for both squads. Regardless, a long overdue win over Wisconsin at their place, even if it is one of their lesser talented squads. I just waited for a run at the end from the Badgers to steal it away, but they held it off.

Play of the game was Sullinger's steal protecting a one point lead. Buford drains a three, and its ballgame.

bucksfan2
02-06-2012, 08:33 AM
There were enough bricks layed to keep the wolf out today. Man, ugly shooting for both squads. Regardless, a long overdue win over Wisconsin at their place, even if it is one of their lesser talented squads. I just waited for a run at the end from the Badgers to steal it away, but they held it off.

Play of the game was Sullinger's steal protecting a one point lead. Buford drains a three, and its ballgame.

It was an ugly game but in order to beat Wisconsin in Madison you need to win ugly games. They may be a lesser Wisconsin team but I still think they are a good team. I think Jordan Taylor may be the best PG in college basketball. Fortunately they held him in check and didn't let him go off.

That game was the first time since the Duke game that I thought they had a legit chance to win it all. They beat a good team on the road but also found a way to win a game. The only two players who I thought played well were Sullinger and Thomas. You need to be able to win games like those in order to win it all.

traderumor
02-06-2012, 11:35 AM
Good stuff from The Dispatch today
http://www.buckeyextra.com/content/stories/2012/02/06/osu-mbk-insider-2-6-gjnfuclt-1.html


The Sully watch
Ryan said he did not double-team on Sullinger because he was wary of Ohio State’s ability to make three-point shots. “Some of those teams that doubled him paid big time,” he said. Sullinger was grateful. “I don’t think I’ve seen single coverage since the first game of the season my freshman year,” he said. “When I (saw) that, I kind of got excited and decided to go to work.” Sullinger made 6 of 8 shots in the first half. In the second, “they decided to front the post,” he said, “and they had a lot of back-side help, so it was very tough for our guards to deliver the pass.” Thomas was the beneficiary and took advantage with two second-chance putbacks on the back side. He made 4 of 6 shots after halftime. “If you want to double me, or rotate a guy to box me out, Deshaun is always going to be the free one,” Sullinger said, “and he’s a ball-attractor. He always attracts the ball.”

Having watched teams try to game plan the Bucks, it seems like it might be less deadly poison to play Sullinger honest. Sure, he'll get 20-30, but you can slow down the game, defend the outside shooter better, and stay within one good late run to beat them. The all-in double teaming has proven to be the least effective D against the Bucks, yet that is the one that everyone tries.

Of course, Wisconsin can play D better than most teams, so it may be personnel that allowed them to execute the gameplan and hang in the game.

BuckeyeRed27
02-06-2012, 01:48 PM
It was an ugly game but in order to beat Wisconsin in Madison you need to win ugly games. They may be a lesser Wisconsin team but I still think they are a good team. I think Jordan Taylor may be the best PG in college basketball. Fortunately they held him in check and didn't let him go off.

That game was the first time since the Duke game that I thought they had a legit chance to win it all. They beat a good team on the road but also found a way to win a game. The only two players who I thought played well were Sullinger and Thomas. You need to be able to win games like those in order to win it all.

I haven't watched enough non-OSU college basketball this year to have a real good idea if OSU can win the whole thing. I liked how they won the Wisconsin game though because it shows the team is growing. That game played out very simliar to the Illinois and Indiana games except this time they won. I do feel that while this team is incredibly talented and has a lot of weapons, there is something missing. A killer instinct that some teams have that I haven't seen with this team.

Captain Hook
02-07-2012, 01:14 AM
The Buckeyes were lucky to get out of Wisconsin with a win imo.They couldn't make anything but Wisconsin was worse and missed a ton of good looks.That being said, in two of OSU losses(IU and Ill.) the teams they were playing got very hot and were lucky to beat the Bucks.What goes around comes around.

bucksfan2
02-07-2012, 08:42 AM
I haven't watched enough non-OSU college basketball this year to have a real good idea if OSU can win the whole thing. I liked how they won the Wisconsin game though because it shows the team is growing. That game played out very simliar to the Illinois and Indiana games except this time they won. I do feel that while this team is incredibly talented and has a lot of weapons, there is something missing. A killer instinct that some teams have that I haven't seen with this team.

OSU has only lost on the road in hostile environments. If you take out the Kansas game which was played without Sullinger its a loss to IU on the road and a historic effort from Paul. What I see is fluke type games lost on the road are minimized becasue once you hit tournament time those away games all become neutral games.

I don't know about killer instinct but they pretty much disected good teams like Duke, Florida, and IU. They played their style of basketball and the game was pretty much out of hand in the 2nd half.

Now as long as their own AD doesn't screw them over again in the tournament........

traderumor
02-07-2012, 09:34 AM
OSU has only lost on the road in hostile environments. If you take out the Kansas game which was played without Sullinger its a loss to IU on the road and a historic effort from Paul. What I see is fluke type games lost on the road are minimized becasue once you hit tournament time those away games all become neutral games.

I don't know about killer instinct but they pretty much disected good teams like Duke, Florida, and IU. They played their style of basketball and the game was pretty much out of hand in the 2nd half.

Now as long as their own AD doesn't screw them over again in the tournament........Yea, they've had some big blowout wins on the road against Iowa and Nebraska also, teams that have had some home success this year. Those may be below average teams, but 30 point wins on the road plus some of the home blowouts that were clear overmatches, I'm not seeing any "lack of killer instict."

BuckeyeRed27
02-07-2012, 12:09 PM
Yea, they've had some big blowout wins on the road against Iowa and Nebraska also, teams that have had some home success this year. Those may be below average teams, but 30 point wins on the road plus some of the home blowouts that were clear overmatches, I'm not seeing any "lack of killer instict."

They are very talented and that's why they are mostly blowing out teams. Maybe killer instinct isn't the right term. Maybe it's a lack or direction. I think what I'm seeing is common when the primary scoring threat is a big man. My point is I don't trust this team in a close game. They have a lot of big games left and plenty of opportunities to continue getting better.

Hoosier Red
02-07-2012, 03:35 PM
I haven't watched enough non-OSU college basketball this year to have a real good idea if OSU can win the whole thing. I liked how they won the Wisconsin game though because it shows the team is growing. That game played out very simliar to the Illinois and Indiana games except this time they won. I do feel that while this team is incredibly talented and has a lot of weapons, there is something missing. A killer instinct that some teams have that I haven't seen with this team.

I'd be careful to ascribe too much of that to growth. In essence in the IU and ILL games they played it close and lost, in this one they played it close and won. More than anything it shows if you take a game down to the wire, the talent differential goes out the window and the game becomes a coin flip. It's why less talented teams always try to bunker down and make the game as short as possible. If you ask the Buckeyes before a game with Northwestern if they'd rather have a coin flip(win expectation 50%) then play the game they'd of course turn it down. If you asked Northwestern, they'd of course say yes.

So I don't know if they've grown so much as the coin flipped to tails in the first two games and to heads on Saturday.

BuckeyeRed27
02-07-2012, 07:22 PM
I'd be careful to ascribe too much of that to growth. In essence in the IU and ILL games they played it close and lost, in this one they played it close and won. More than anything it shows if you take a game down to the wire, the talent differential goes out the window and the game becomes a coin flip. It's why less talented teams always try to bunker down and make the game as short as possible. If you ask the Buckeyes before a game with Northwestern if they'd rather have a coin flip(win expectation 50%) then play the game they'd of course turn it down. If you asked Northwestern, they'd of course say yes.

So I don't know if they've grown so much as the coin flipped to tails in the first two games and to heads on Saturday.

That's true, but I do feel they played better down the stretch in the Wisconsin game. In both the Illinois and Indiana games the offense was tight and disorganized and the defense was reactionary. It wasn't perfect against Wisconsin but I felt the level of play and execution down the stretch was better. Buford's 3 was probably the most clutch shot of the season.

traderumor
02-07-2012, 08:16 PM
I'd be careful to ascribe too much of that to growth. In essence in the IU and ILL games they played it close and lost, in this one they played it close and won. More than anything it shows if you take a game down to the wire, the talent differential goes out the window and the game becomes a coin flip. It's why less talented teams always try to bunker down and make the game as short as possible. If you ask the Buckeyes before a game with Northwestern if they'd rather have a coin flip(win expectation 50%) then play the game they'd of course turn it down. If you asked Northwestern, they'd of course say yes.

So I don't know if they've grown so much as the coin flipped to tails in the first two games and to heads on Saturday.You are going to have close games. They took care of the ball, made foul shots and played tough d late Saturday. In the IU and Ill tight games, the guards made turnovers down the stretch. It isn't luck, its improvement at crunch time--execution vs. Folding

bucksfan2
02-08-2012, 09:09 AM
You are going to have close games. They took care of the ball, made foul shots and played tough d late Saturday. In the IU and Ill tight games, the guards made turnovers down the stretch. It isn't luck, its improvement at crunch time--execution vs. Folding

Paul throwing shot in after shot in is luck. There are just some games that something out of the ordinary happens and you are lucky to win the game. More than anything else you hope you aviod that come tournament time.

Buckeyes got more than they expected from Purdue last night. I am always amazed in the way officials can dictate the game. OSU was damn near in the bonus early on in the first half. They benefitted from a tight whistle until Sullinger and Craft got 4 fouls with about 8 minutes to go. It was nice seeing Bufford play like a NBA player last night. He just took over the game when he was really OSU's only option.

What is happening to Seibert? Guy rarely ever gets on the court.

traderumor
02-08-2012, 09:37 AM
Paul throwing shot in after shot in is luck. There are just some games that something out of the ordinary happens and you are lucky to win the game. More than anything else you hope you aviod that come tournament time. Random (which is different than luck), sure, but the Buckeyes still had a chance to win the game late and made turnovers and wasted possessions down the stretch. That was the story of both the Big 10 losses


Buckeyes got more than they expected from Purdue last night. I am always amazed in the way officials can dictate the game. OSU was damn near in the bonus early on in the first half. They benefitted from a tight whistle until Sullinger and Craft got 4 fouls with about 8 minutes to go. It was nice seeing Bufford play like a NBA player last night. He just took over the game when he was really OSU's only option.The Buckeyes flexed their depth and growth muscles last night. I know the tendency in fandom is to blame everything on your team, as I know the "what happened to the D" are the low hanging fruit on that game. What I saw is that Purdue executed an offensive game plan flawlessly and created some matchup problems with the Buckeyes. Painter is a sharp dude, and he found something that he had and his guys executed it. I saw no lack of intensity on the Buckeyes D, they were simply schooled and had no answer--until late when Thompson, Ravenal, and Scott made life more difficult on the D end. What a pleasant surprise that was. For Buford, was glad to see him get to wear the hero's laurel, he gets abused for his inconsistency and meek demeanor that sometimes makes him quietly disappear. He showed what he can do when he HAS to be the man. Don't get me wrong, he frustrates me too, but he is also a scapegoat at times.


What is happening to Seibert? Guy rarely ever gets on the court.Didn't perform. Made shots in the Northwestern game, hasn't hit anything since, and that is all he can do. He'll get his chance the next two years.

Hoosier Red
02-08-2012, 09:45 AM
You are going to have close games. They took care of the ball, made foul shots and played tough d late Saturday. In the IU and Ill tight games, the guards made turnovers down the stretch. It isn't luck, its improvement at crunch time--execution vs. Folding

Perhaps. But again a lot of what we see as execution is variance. If a guy is an 80% FT shooter, and makes 4 free throws early in a game, is it folding if he misses one in the last minute? Sometimes turnovers, missed free throws, etc. happen at inopportune times.

And I don't mean this as a criticism, Ohio State and Kentucky are far and away the best teams I've seen all year, but as Danny O'Shea says in "Little Giants" you only need that one time." When you play a close game, whether its against Purdue or IU or Wisconsin or Illinois, you leave yourself vulnerable to the one time Brandon Paul is going to go nuts, or the one time when an official is going to call a foul at an inopportune time.

bucksfan2
02-08-2012, 09:58 AM
Random (which is different than luck), sure, but the Buckeyes still had a chance to win the game late and made turnovers and wasted possessions down the stretch. That was the story of both the Big 10 losses

In today's era of college basketball you aren't going to see any undefeated teams anymore. There is just too much competition at all levels. When something random like Paul happens you just have to tip your hat and move on. OSU could have won that game if it weren't for Paul throwing one in falling away, double teamed, on the sideline.

Every game has turning pionts. I also think its tough for a team to come out amped up for 30+ games a season. Its much easier come tourney time where its a one and done situation.


The Buckeyes flexed their depth and growth muscles last night. I know the tendency in fandom is to blame everything on your team, as I know the "what happened to the D" are the low hanging fruit on that game. What I saw is that Purdue executed an offensive game plan flawlessly and created some matchup problems with the Buckeyes. Painter is a sharp dude, and he found something that he had and his guys executed it. I saw no lack of intensity on the Buckeyes D, they were simply schooled and had no answer--until late when Thompson, Ravenal, and Scott made life more difficult on the D end. What a pleasant surprise that was. For Buford, was glad to see him get to wear the hero's laurel, he gets abused for his inconsistency and meek demeanor that sometimes makes him quietly disappear. He showed what he can do when he HAS to be the man. Don't get me wrong, he frustrates me too, but he is also a scapegoat at times.

I don't know if I like Dan Dakich or dislike him. He isn't too fond of OSU and announces the game like a coach where any basket made is a result of poor defense. He points out a lot of interesting things, but he expects zero mistakes to be made on defense. I guess that brings me to the Purdue game, sometimes the offense just makes plays. Sometimes the defense plays faulty and others the offense exploits a defesnive flaw. It was almost like Purdue traded defense for offense to create a mismatch. I was somewhat shocked to see Matta stay in the man and not switch to zone. It was nice to see OSU be able to win without playing great D and having to score.

As for Bufford there have been times when he takes awful shots. In the past they have happened in the most important times. But he possesses the uncanny ability to score. Last night he looked like a NBA player. He hit the mid-range jumper, hit the 3 off the screen, drove the ball to the hole, etc. If he plays like that (and makes the shots) I don't know if there is a team who can beat OSU. I think Bufford may be a better pro prospect than Sullinger, which is saying a lot.

traderumor
02-11-2012, 11:37 PM
That was some butt ugly basketball. Michigan St. gameplan seemed simple--physical on D, esp. on Sullinger, and then when the refs didn't call the game close early, they simply got more physical. OSU tries to play through it, but that was simply the wrong crew for that game. No basketball was played, it was simply Michigan St. bullying their way all over the court and the refs yelling at the Ohio St. bench. Ted Valentine made a mockery of the game, Mr. "Road Warrior" apparently, reminding the OSU coaches a few times to shush. Make a call and they'll shut up, or T 'em. Too bad for a 1st place game to turn into that.

Good for them Spartans. Keep working on that 50 points a game offense and good luck in the tourney.

And everyone sees the bias on how hard Sullinger must be hammered to actually get the call. Very frustrating, most of the time they overcome it, tonight just ugly play all around.

One positive: ESPN can now shut up about the home winning streak. My goodness they are OCD with stuff like that.

WMR
02-11-2012, 11:51 PM
Dang, sounds like the refs really screwed the Buckeyes. :eek:

dabvu2498
02-12-2012, 01:21 AM
Michigan St. ppg: 73.8

Ohio St. ppg: 76.9

Just sayin.

traderumor
02-12-2012, 09:10 AM
Dang, sounds like the refs really screwed the Buckeyes. :eek:It wasn't in a way that a few obvious bad calls were made that usually spring "refs screwed us" comments. It was the style of play that was allowed from the first non-whistle that highly favored one team. Give MSU credit, they recognized and just started hacking away.

All I ask for is consistency, and the Big 10 allows physical play, but last night was over the top. And Ted Valentine was in "look at me, I'm a rock and roll road warrior" mode. Not sure what his chip is with the current Bucks, but he had something up his hiney last night.

traderumor
02-12-2012, 09:13 AM
Michigan St. ppg: 73.8

Ohio St. ppg: 76.9

Just sayin.

But against tournament teams, which was my point? Michigan St. also had a 41-40 game recently at Illinois.

I'd say you would probably get a C from your Stats professor for that usage.

dabvu2498
02-12-2012, 11:19 AM
But against tournament teams, which was my point? Michigan St. also had a 41-40 game recently.

And my point was, let's not act like OSU plays like they're coached by Paul Westphal.

VottoFan54
02-12-2012, 01:28 PM
That was some butt ugly basketball. Michigan St. gameplan seemed simple--physical on D, esp. on Sullinger, and then when the refs didn't call the game close early, they simply got more physical. OSU tries to play through it, but that was simply the wrong crew for that game. No basketball was played, it was simply Michigan St. bullying their way all over the court and the refs yelling at the Ohio St. bench. Ted Valentine made a mockery of the game, Mr. "Road Warrior" apparently, reminding the OSU coaches a few times to shush. Make a call and they'll shut up, or T 'em. Too bad for a 1st place game to turn into that.

Good for them Spartans. Keep working on that 50 points a game offense and good luck in the tourney.

And everyone sees the bias on how hard Sullinger must be hammered to actually get the call. Very frustrating, most of the time they overcome it, tonight just ugly play all around.

One positive: ESPN can now shut up about the home winning streak. My goodness they are OCD with stuff like that.

Maybe going 2-15 from beyond the arc had something to do with OSU losing, or maybe it was shooting 14 of 53 from the field. Making Adrien Payne look like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar did not help them either. OSU did not play good basketball yesterday and lost as a result. OSU had 13 fouls (3 or 4 were intentional fouls) and MSU had 17. OSU was in the bonus with about 9:30 left in the first half, but the refs didn't call it tight early?

As to that sarcastic "good luck in the tourney" comment, Tom Izzo teams have always been centered around defense and rebounding, and Izzo has done just fine in the tounament. The fact that you think one of his better defensive teams with a Big Ten POTY canidate won't continue that success is beyond me.

cincrazy
02-12-2012, 01:29 PM
I don' think it's fair to take anything away from MSU. The refs called the game the same way for both teams. We couldn't buy a shot, and it's been a problem all season. Anyone with lengthy post guys on defense will totally shut us down, because Sullinger just can't deal with it in the post. Yes, they played physical, but I didn't get the imperssion they crossed any lines. I think they're just better than us. Perhaps we have more talent, per se, but they're a better basketball team. The Bucks don't have anyone that can create their own shot, and with Buford's struggles they have no one who can consistently hit a jump shot. How hard is it to shut a team like that down? Especially with a team that has the quality of D MSU does.

traderumor
02-12-2012, 08:09 PM
Maybe going 2-15 from beyond the arc had something to do with OSU losing, or maybe it was shooting 14 of 53 from the field. Making Adrien Payne look like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar did not help them either. OSU did not play good basketball yesterday and lost as a result. OSU had 13 fouls (3 or 4 were intentional fouls) and MSU had 17. OSU was in the bonus with about 9:30 left in the first half, but the refs didn't call it tight early?

As to that sarcastic "good luck in the tourney" comment, Tom Izzo teams have always been centered around defense and rebounding, and Izzo has done just fine in the tounament. The fact that you think one of his better defensive teams with a Big Ten POTY canidate won't continue that success is beyond me.
Yes, OSU played poorly, MSU's physical defense was the cause. I am saying that their physical defense was actually fouling, from the opening tip. Sullinger was thrown out of bounds with a hip within the first few possessions as an example. It set the tone for the game, got Ohio State out of anything they are usually able to do, and was unnecessary if officiating was more consistent. How quickly Ohio State was in the bonus proves nothing.

My take, your take.

As for the tourney, MSU will most likely make the Sweet 16, probably not go any further. I'll go on record with that prediction, you can check it out later.

BTW, MSU played poorly, just less poorly. Not much credit due for that. I gave them the credit they deserve.

VottoFan54
02-12-2012, 11:00 PM
And I think Brutus nailed it as to the turning point in the game, which was a blown call on Sullinger for the charge when the guy slid in under while he was in the air. Late in the game, Sullinger has perfect position, gets barrelled over, block and a key basket counts.


This comment is from OSU's loss to Indiana. Does OSU ever get beat by a better team or are they always just screwed by the refs?


OSU and MSU are trending opposite directions. Izzo's teams have been getting thinner and thinner in talent, this one being the least talented MSU team I can remember during his tenure. I'd say Izzo is a tiring elder statesman (fading star) while Matta is still at the top of his game (star in his prime).

This was your last comment on MSU and that turned out to be dead wrong, I'm guessing this most recent prediction will turn out the same way. I would be absolutely shocked if MSU didn't make it past the Sweet 16.


I am saying that their physical defense was actually fouling...How quickly Ohio State was in the bonus proves nothing.

Their may have been fouls that went uncalled in MSU's favor, I am not denying that, but do you really think on those 13 missed 3's that MSU fouled them on more than one or two? What about the other 11? Any way you spin it the refs did not make OSU have a horrible shooting night. As to your second comment, It proves that the refs were calling fouls on MSU early in the game and they were not able to set the tone with overly physical play right from the opening tip.

traderumor
02-13-2012, 10:23 AM
This comment is from OSU's loss to Indiana. Does OSU ever get beat by a better team or are they always just screwed by the refs?Go ahead and pick that low hanging fruit. I knew my comments would be taken as "refs screwed Ohio State," but I was giving readers the benefit of the doubt that they would see that "refs can set the tone for a game, they did in a way that favored MSU, it caused Ohio State problems in all facets of the game on the offensive end, including shooting," which was the intended meaning of my comments.

But, to your argument, is Indiana a better team than Ohio State? While you're researching my prior posts, go back through the IU thread and read some of my predictions prior to their nosedive. Referees are a variable in a basketball game and can easily control a game. It is actually one of the easier sports of the big 3 to influence outcomes (see NBA ref busted for fixing games for gambling reasons, watch HS basketball in Anyplace USA). So yea, mentioning the officiating style in a game is a relevant point. As for Saturday's game, MSU played less poorly than Ohio State. Does that make them a better team?



This was your last comment on MSU and that turned out to be dead wrong, I'm guessing this most recent prediction will turn out the same way. I would be absolutely shocked if MSU didn't make it past the Sweet 16. I still did not see a lot of talent on the floor for MSU Saturday. Green and a bunch of support staff, some of it not very good at all. I am growing in admiration of Izzo's coaching ability though. He is getting a lot of results out of a thin squad. Now, if Payne plays the way he does against OSU consistently, they have two great players, but for now, its pretty much Green and a Hall of Fame coach. I'll stand by comment and do not think it is "talent" but "whole greater than the sum of the parts." BTW, I assume you are an MSU fan, or at least secret admirer, by the flavor of your posts, no? You just have the opposite bias, yet you are in my face accusing me of homerism.




Their may have been fouls that went uncalled in MSU's favor, I am not denying that, but do you really think on those 13 missed 3's that MSU fouled them on more than one or two? What about the other 11? Any way you spin it the refs did not make OSU have a horrible shooting night. As to your second comment, It proves that the refs were calling fouls on MSU early in the game and they were not able to set the tone with overly physical play right from the opening tip.For the record, I liked Sullinger's comments, who nailed something I noticed, and that is that "after 25 games we all of a sudden don't run our offense?" That is the jest of it, but the cause is a debatable.

bucksfan2
02-13-2012, 10:33 AM
Go ahead and pick that low hanging fruit. I knew my comments would be taken as "refs screwed Ohio State," but I was giving readers the benefit of the doubt that they would see that "refs can set the tone for a game, they did in a way that favored MSU, it caused Ohio State problems in all facets of the game on the offensive end, including shooting," which was the intended meaning of my comments.

The refs absolutley set the tone for basketball games. I would much rather have them call a loose game, let the players play instead of calling every tic and tac foul.

I didn't get to watch the full game. But I came away with a few observations. You aren't going to beat good teams when you shoot that poorly from the field. Hopefully they got that poor shooting game out of their system.

Tom Izzo is one heck of a coach. He devised a game plan that beat OSU. Kudos to him. OSU travels to MSU in a few weeks so lets see if Thad and OSU have a response.

traderumor
02-13-2012, 10:56 AM
The refs absolutley set the tone for basketball games. I would much rather have them call a loose game, let the players play instead of calling every tic and tac foul.

I didn't get to watch the full game. But I came away with a few observations. You aren't going to beat good teams when you shoot that poorly from the field. Hopefully they got that poor shooting game out of their system.

Tom Izzo is one heck of a coach. He devised a game plan that beat OSU. Kudos to him. OSU travels to MSU in a few weeks so lets see if Thad and OSU have a response.I think where Big 10 refs, and maybe all college refs need to improve is in cleaning up low post play. They call light contact in the frontcourt, yet allow the bigs to just pound on each other. Then they wonder why the bigs are ready to come to blows so frequently.

traderumor
02-13-2012, 11:26 AM
The refs absolutley set the tone for basketball games. I would much rather have them call a loose game, let the players play instead of calling every tic and tac foul.

I didn't get to watch the full game. But I came away with a few observations. You aren't going to beat good teams when you shoot that poorly from the field. Hopefully they got that poor shooting game out of their system.

Tom Izzo is one heck of a coach. He devised a game plan that beat OSU. Kudos to him. OSU travels to MSU in a few weeks so lets see if Thad and OSU have a response.I know this isn't the way Matta coaches, but in that game, I kept on waiting for him to bring in someone like Sibert or even the kid from Georgia (name escaping me) for a few minutes to see if they could knock down a few shots. Just a short stint, let them fire up a few and see what happens. I also was screaming to switch to a zone against Purdue Tuesday just to change the look and maybe take them out of what was clearly torching the man to man on that particular night. But then, that is armchair coaching, just seemed like some in-game adjustments that were ripe for the picking to pick up the struggling starters. That kind of thing seems to be Matta's kryptonite.

bucksfan2
02-13-2012, 11:41 AM
Refs often times have too much say so in the outcome of the game. Bad calls, make up calls, etc. can have too big of an effect on the eventual outcome. My biggest pet peeve in college basketball is when an offical gets excited and emotional when making a call. Hightower is a decent official, but he often likes the spotlight to shine on him.


I know this isn't the way Matta coaches, but in that game, I kept on waiting for him to bring in someone like Sibert or even the kid from Georgia (name escaping me) for a few minutes to see if they could knock down a few shots. Just a short stint, let them fire up a few and see what happens. I also was screaming to switch to a zone against Purdue Tuesday just to change the look and maybe take them out of what was clearly torching the man to man on that particular night. But then, that is armchair coaching, just seemed like some in-game adjustments that were ripe for the picking to pick up the struggling starters. That kind of thing seems to be Matta's kryptonite.

One of my biggest complaints about Matta may be his biggest strength. He doesn't panic and doesn't change his style. Often times it works out in the end but there are times when a change is needed. Matta is stubborn in making in game decisions which has hurt the team in the tournament but then I look at their final four run a handful of years ago and his coaching style was a key reason to why they made it there. There were times against and Tennessee where other coaches would have paniced, Matta didn't.

I do think his biggest flaw has not being able to get any offense from the bench. When Smith Jr. was struggling on offense it would have been nice to see someone step in for him. Most of the guys who come off the bench are defensive minded players, not guys who can score.

Hoosier Red
02-13-2012, 11:52 AM
Go ahead and pick that low hanging fruit. I knew my comments would be taken as "refs screwed Ohio State," but I was giving readers the benefit of the doubt that they would see that "refs can set the tone for a game, they did in a way that favored MSU, it caused Ohio State problems in all facets of the game on the offensive end, including shooting," which was the intended meaning of my comments.

But, to your argument, is Indiana a better team than Ohio State? While you're researching my prior posts, go back through the IU thread and read some of my predictions prior to their nosedive. Referees are a variable in a basketball game and can easily control a game. It is actually one of the easier sports of the big 3 to influence outcomes (see NBA ref busted for fixing games for gambling reasons, watch HS basketball in Anyplace USA). So yea, mentioning the officiating style in a game is a relevant point. As for Saturday's game, MSU played less poorly than Ohio State. Does that make them a better team?



Yes quite the Nostradamus you are. Picking them to lose games, fall to the back half of the top 25 which is where virtually everyone with whom you were arguing also had them ending up. ;)

That said, I do think officiating can set the tone for a game, and officiating a game tight or loose can in fact favor one side or the other.

However from the relatively few games I've seen, it seems to work to tOSU's advantage when it is called loosely. Not being particularly deep, it seeems as though a tightly called contest would have a bigger impact.

Maybe Ohio State needs the game to be called "just right" so that it's not too tight wherer Craft and Sullinger are susceptible to cheapies, but not too loose where more physical front lines can overpower Sullinger with their girth.

traderumor
02-13-2012, 12:54 PM
Yes quite the Nostradamus you are. Picking them to lose games, fall to the back half of the top 25 which is where virtually everyone with whom you were arguing also had them ending up. ;)

That said, I do think officiating can set the tone for a game, and officiating a game tight or loose can in fact favor one side or the other.

However from the relatively few games I've seen, it seems to work to tOSU's advantage when it is called loosely. Not being particularly deep, it seeems as though a tightly called contest would have a bigger impact.

Maybe Ohio State needs the game to be called "just right" so that it's not too tight wherer Craft and Sullinger are susceptible to cheapies, but not too loose where more physical front lines can overpower Sullinger with their girth.LOL, yea, folks were figuring on losing to Nebraska on the road and Minnesota at home all while puffing out their chests about wins at home over UK and Ohio St. The collapse happened shortly after I was laughed out of the thread by the schoolgirl crush-like faithful, then they start throwing out disclaimers when the unexpected losses come. Now I know what folks are talking about with IU bball fans.

BTW, IU looked really good against Purdue. I watched a lot of that game and they resembled the team that won those two big games, and on the road in a rivalry game. I think they are a darkhorse Sweet 16 candidate, but are also just as likely to get beat in the first round. They've been pretty up and down since the OSU game.

traderumor
02-13-2012, 12:56 PM
Yes quite the Nostradamus you are. Picking them to lose games, fall to the back half of the top 25 which is where virtually everyone with whom you were arguing also had them ending up. ;)

That said, I do think officiating can set the tone for a game, and officiating a game tight or loose can in fact favor one side or the other.

However from the relatively few games I've seen, it seems to work to tOSU's advantage when it is called loosely. Not being particularly deep, it seeems as though a tightly called contest would have a bigger impact.

Maybe Ohio State needs the game to be called "just right" so that it's not too tight wherer Craft and Sullinger are susceptible to cheapies, but not too loose where more physical front lines can overpower Sullinger with their girth.I would love for refs to call the game "just right." Who wants anything less? But it isn't girth that is Sullinger's kryptonite, its long-armed, athletic big men. Girth goes to Sullinger, he's strong. The athletic guys can foul and not make it so obvious ;)

bucksfan2
02-13-2012, 01:19 PM
Maybe Ohio State needs the game to be called "just right" so that it's not too tight wherer Craft and Sullinger are susceptible to cheapies, but not too loose where more physical front lines can overpower Sullinger with their girth.

What is just right?

When OSU played Purdue, OSU was almost into the bonus with 12 minutes to go in the 1st half. I told myself at the time that it is helping OSU but the officials are having too much of a say in the game.

For the most part Craft plays defense the way you teach someone to play. You move your feet to stay in front of a player and don't reach. The tic tac fouls hurt OSU more than they help OSU most of the time.

But as for the loss it all came down to OSU's poor shooting. Hopefully they got that out of the way as the tournament gets near. You see it happen to the best of teams, it just usually doesn't happen at their home court.

Razor Shines
02-13-2012, 01:33 PM
LOL, yea, folks were figuring on losing to Nebraska on the road and Minnesota at home all while puffing out their chests about wins at home over UK and Ohio St. The collapse happened shortly after I was laughed out of the thread by the schoolgirl crush-like faithful, then they start throwing out disclaimers when the unexpected losses come. Now I know what folks are talking about with IU bball fans.

BTW, IU looked really good against Purdue. I watched a lot of that game and they resembled the team that won those two big games, and on the road in a rivalry game. I think they are a darkhorse Sweet 16 candidate, but are also just as likely to get beat in the first round. They've been pretty up and down since the OSU game.

What are talking about?

Who was puffing out their chest? Were we excited? You're damn right, why shouldn't we have been excited? I'm still excited. No one thought we were a better team than UK or OSU. No one thought we were going to be a top ten team at the end of the season, but coming into the season we were going to be satisfied with an NIT bid. It was cool for us to see our team ranked in the top ten for a little while.

Did we expect to lose at Nebraska or Minnesota at home? No of course not but we knew it was a possibility, they're a young team.

You came in the thread and claimed we were doing things that werent doing and are still claiming that. And you took any disagreement toward you as an insult, all the while insulting us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

VottoFan54
02-13-2012, 02:13 PM
I still did not see a lot of talent on the floor for MSU Saturday. Green and a bunch of support staff, some of it not very good at all. I am growing in admiration of Izzo's coaching ability though. He is getting a lot of results out of a thin squad. Now, if Payne plays the way he does against OSU consistently, they have two great players, but for now, its pretty much Green and a Hall of Fame coach. I'll stand by comment and do not think it is "talent" but "whole greater than the sum of the parts." BTW, I assume you are an MSU fan, or at least secret admirer, by the flavor of your posts, no? You just have the opposite bias, yet you are in my face accusing me of homerism.


For the record, I liked Sullinger's comments, who nailed something I noticed, and that is that "after 25 games we all of a sudden don't run our offense?" That is the jest of it, but the cause is a debatable.

I would agree that MSU isn't the most talented team, but they are certainly more talented than last year. Izzo never has team stocked full of talent like Duke or UNC, he just gets players that fit his system and the net results is a team that plays well togethed and has good chemistry. Yes, I am a MSU fan, but I don't think that I accused you of homerism. We are obviously both homers and I don't think either of us have a real neutral viewpoint on this game and these teams.

I disagree with Sullinger, I have seen many teams that can't buy a shot over the course of a game, yet are a good team. Many teams have gone cold in games of this magnitude.

Regardless of the result both teams have things to take away from this game. OSU will have to be more consistent it their jump shooting and be able to adjust to officiating in the tournament. You and I may not like it but there will be poorly officiatied games in the tourney, but the best teams can overcome that. I think this game is a tremendous confidence boost for MSU, and they needed it. MSU needs to figure it out offensively when Appling is struggling (or in this case being shut down by Craft). Every player is likely to have a bad game over the course of a 6 game tourney, and you have to adjust to their performance. If OSU could have knocked down jumpers, MSU would have lost the game.

traderumor
02-13-2012, 03:11 PM
What are talking about?

Who was puffing out their chest? Were we excited? You're damn right, why shouldn't we have been excited? I'm still excited. No one thought we were a better team than UK or OSU. No one thought we were going to be a top ten team at the end of the season, but coming into the season we were going to be satisfied with an NIT bid. It was cool for us to see our team ranked in the top ten for a little while.

Did we expect to lose at Nebraska or Minnesota at home? No of course not but we knew it was a possibility, they're a young team.

You came in the thread and claimed we were doing things that werent doing and are still claiming that. And you took any disagreement toward you as an insult, all the while insulting us.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkBecause your viewpoint of the points discussed is the correct one? Not my take on things, but I'd say we are at the agreeing to disagree stage. So I am.

Razor Shines
02-13-2012, 06:13 PM
Because your viewpoint of the points discussed is the correct one?

What points are you referring to? The basketball stuff? Absolutely not. You stating that you think IU is a team too dependent on the 3, that maybe they didn't deserve to be ranked where they were, that they were a December flash...etc is all fair and not at all insulting.

The other stuff is the insulting part. Saying we're puffing out our chest, when we weren't. The Seinfeld thing where you said you forgot about us and then we were telling everybody how great we were, when we weren't.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hoosier Red
02-14-2012, 02:18 PM
What is just right?

When OSU played Purdue, OSU was almost into the bonus with 12 minutes to go in the 1st half. I told myself at the time that it is helping OSU but the officials are having too much of a say in the game.

For the most part Craft plays defense the way you teach someone to play. You move your feet to stay in front of a player and don't reach. The tic tac fouls hurt OSU more than they help OSU most of the time.

But as for the loss it all came down to OSU's poor shooting. Hopefully they got that out of the way as the tournament gets near. You see it happen to the best of teams, it just usually doesn't happen at their home court.

That's a very tight rope to walk.
And obviously if for whatever reason one team gets called for a larger amount of fouls than it's opponents it's going to be at a huge disadvantage.

But generally the fouls tend to be pretty evenly distributed. And like I said, if officials are calling too many ticky tack fouls, I'd agree that Ohio State would be at a big disadvantage because the bench is so thin.

On the other hand, the officials really seemed to let Michigan State and Ohio State play physically, which allowed Sparty to grab the upper hand.

Now granted, the "letting them play" may work to tOSU's advantage versus anyone except for the Spartans, but that's the point I was making about foul calling not being too stringent nor too lenient but rather "just right."

traderumor
02-14-2012, 11:58 PM
Good bounce back for the Bucks. Still shooting some bricks, I've said since game 1 that outside shooting was this team's clear weakness. It was better tonight, but mostly Buford.

But all things considered, I think they played a good, solid road game and kept Minnesota from ever truly getting within striking distance.

Matta going from one extreme to the other, using a lot of guys in the first half. I thought that they played very well tonight, hope to see more of that.

WMR
02-15-2012, 12:01 AM
nm

bucksfan2
02-15-2012, 08:57 AM
Good bounce back for the Bucks. Still shooting some bricks, I've said since game 1 that outside shooting was this team's clear weakness. It was better tonight, but mostly Buford.

But all things considered, I think they played a good, solid road game and kept Minnesota from ever truly getting within striking distance.

Matta going from one extreme to the other, using a lot of guys in the first half. I thought that they played very well tonight, hope to see more of that.

Last night gives me hope for the remainder of the season. Its also why they are a dangerous team. They didn't play their best yet they beat a decent team in a tough arena.

Minnesota did better when they went to the zone but the reality was OSU was missing wide open 3's. Guys who can knock them down were just off. Bufford, Thomas, and Smith Jr. got their fair share of wide open shots but jus missed. Bufford always leaves me scratching my head, guy is such a pure shooter but will miss wide open shots in rhythm but nail the tough shots. His fade away before the end of the 1st half was a great shot.

I think what last night showed is they can beat the vast majority of teams when they are off. It will take Bufford and Thomas to get hot to carry them to New Orleans, that or a Duke-esque draw.

What are your thoughts on Dan Dakish as an announcer. I think he is good but man is he critical. I sure wouldn't want to play for him.

traderumor
02-15-2012, 09:28 AM
Last night gives me hope for the remainder of the season. Its also why they are a dangerous team. They didn't play their best yet they beat a decent team in a tough arena.

Minnesota did better when they went to the zone but the reality was OSU was missing wide open 3's. Guys who can knock them down were just off. Bufford, Thomas, and Smith Jr. got their fair share of wide open shots but jus missed. Bufford always leaves me scratching my head, guy is such a pure shooter but will miss wide open shots in rhythm but nail the tough shots. His fade away before the end of the 1st half was a great shot.

I think what last night showed is they can beat the vast majority of teams when they are off. It will take Bufford and Thomas to get hot to carry them to New Orleans, that or a Duke-esque draw.

What are your thoughts on Dan Dakish as an announcer. I think he is good but man is he critical. I sure wouldn't want to play for him.Dakich I liked in small doses, but now hearing him call almost every OSU game makes me really miss Bill Hosket. My main complaint is that pointing out each and every misstep is what coaches do, but you got to tone that down when your doing commentary. I wish they'd switch him out for Bob Knight, who mixes in praise and criticism, with most of the criticism being "what would have been a better thing to do" rather than "did you see that mistake?"

Hoosier Red
02-15-2012, 03:46 PM
Last night gives me hope for the remainder of the season. Its also why they are a dangerous team. They didn't play their best yet they beat a decent team in a tough arena.

Minnesota did better when they went to the zone but the reality was OSU was missing wide open 3's. Guys who can knock them down were just off. Bufford, Thomas, and Smith Jr. got their fair share of wide open shots but jus missed. Bufford always leaves me scratching my head, guy is such a pure shooter but will miss wide open shots in rhythm but nail the tough shots. His fade away before the end of the 1st half was a great shot.

I think what last night showed is they can beat the vast majority of teams when they are off. It will take Bufford and Thomas to get hot to carry them to New Orleans, that or a Duke-esque draw.

What are your thoughts on Dan Dakish as an announcer. I think he is good but man is he critical. I sure wouldn't want to play for him.

I think it's probably easier to point out mistakes than to pinpoint what went right.

That said, I'm never as sensitive to announcers good or bad as most people. An announcer has to go way out of his way to annoy me but it's also really rare that I hear something I hadn't already thought of.

bucksfan2
02-15-2012, 04:16 PM
I think it's probably easier to point out mistakes than to pinpoint what went right.

That said, I'm never as sensitive to announcers good or bad as most people. An announcer has to go way out of his way to annoy me but it's also really rare that I hear something I hadn't already thought of.

OSU has had Dakich for the past 3-4 games, and a number of times prior to that. It was obvious at first that he didn't really care for OSU and considering that he went to IU it doesn't bother me. It just got a little tiring of hearing out good the opponent was and how bad OSU was playing. But as the season has gone along I actually have liked listening to him. He brings some good insight to the games but man is he ever critical.

It gets tiring to hear how they turned it over twice in that possession, or constant negative aspects of the game being played. When he is at his best he does a very good job of describing things, when he is at his worst he is like a nagging wife. I like guys like Bilas (when not doing Duke), Kellogg, Dykes, and Raftery. Its alright to call the game like you see it, but give some credit to the guys playing and the men coaching once in a while.

Roy Tucker
02-15-2012, 04:52 PM
I hadn't watched an OSU game in a while and I though Dakich was a bit harsh. It didn't bother me, but I thought there was some old-style Bob Knight peeking through.

Too bad OSU doesn't have a shot blocker. Lots of under the basket open looks for the Golden Gophers last night. I'm afraid the Buckeyes will have difficulty against long teams like UK and Syracuse (along with everyone else in the country).

Revering4Blue
02-15-2012, 06:54 PM
I hadn't watched an OSU game in a while and I though Dakich was a bit harsh. It didn't bother me, but I thought there was some old-style Bob Knight peeking through.

Too bad OSU doesn't have a shot blocker. Lots of under the basket open looks for the Golden Gophers last night. I'm afraid the Buckeyes will have difficulty against long teams like UK and Syracuse (along with everyone else in the country).


Amir Williams has recorded 19 blocks in 157 minutes. Why isn't he playing more often?

bucksfan2
02-16-2012, 08:34 AM
Amir Williams has recorded 19 blocks in 157 minutes. Why isn't he playing more often?

Who is he going to replace? Sullinger and Thomas guard the bigs and they are two guys you need in there for offense. Ravenel is the 1st big guy off the bench.

Williams is a good player but he is young and not very good on D.

A match up against UK would be very interesting to see Sullinger and Davis do battle. I would want to see what happens when Sully gets his body into Davis. But I do agree with the poster above that OSU will struggle with a legnthy team. But then again they have the key components for a run, PG(Craft), Big Guy(Sullinger), Scorer(Bufford), and Wild Card (Thomas)

Scrap Irony
02-16-2012, 08:56 AM
It'd be Sullinger and Jones, with Davis coming over the top. Kentucky stands players up by playing strong with their lower body. Help defense comes over the top to block the shots.

The only time that any big scores is when Jones gets beat or Davis is late getting to his spot. (Or that big is able to score over/ through/ around Davis and Jones.)

RiverRat13
02-16-2012, 10:16 AM
I think when the season is over, Thad's biggest regret will be not force feeding Williams minutes (at the expense of Ravenel) in the pre-Big 10 part of the schedule. Ravenel has given OSU relatively nothing with his minutes during Big 10 play. It's too late now, but I believe had Thad played Williams 10-15 minutes from Day 1 that Williams would be a solid third post.

cincrazy
02-16-2012, 01:39 PM
Sully will be lucky to hit double digits in points against Davis. Davis isn't just a good defender, he's DOMINANT. And Sully struggles with length. I think a UK-OSU matchup would get pretty ugly.

traderumor
02-16-2012, 04:37 PM
Sully will be lucky to hit double digits in points against Davis. Davis isn't just a good defender, he's DOMINANT. And Sully struggles with length. I think a UK-OSU matchup would get pretty ugly.
Since Sullinger has made his jumper more a part of his game, that might be a good time to use it.

As far as the matchup "getting ugly," UK is pretty good, but the SEC hasn't really provided a whole lot of competition in a "men against boys" kind of way. UK may also be having the dreaded February peak. Don't get me wrong, they are looking very dominant right now, but I wonder how much is their dominance vs. the SEC being weak this year?

WMR
02-16-2012, 08:41 PM
IMO, UK could easily beat OSU. On the other hand, OSU could easily beat UK. I would call a rematch of last year's Sweet 16 a pick em this year with perhaps a slight advantage to Kentucky.

traderumor
02-16-2012, 10:53 PM
IMO, UK could easily beat OSU. On the other hand, OSU could easily beat UK. I would call a rematch of last year's Sweet 16 a pick em this year with perhaps a slight advantage to Kentucky.If they played Saturday, UK would probably dominate. They are playing as good as anyone right now, and Ohio State is shaky. Come tournament time, the tables could be turned.

WMR
02-17-2012, 03:12 AM
If they played Saturday, UK would probably dominate. They are playing as good as anyone right now, and Ohio State is shaky. Come tournament time, the tables could be turned.

I must admit, traderumor, I do not prescribe to this theory. When you're talking teams as overall talented as UK and OSU, it doesn't take a long period of time for them to "snap back into form." If OSU were to face UK this weekend, we would get not only your best shot, but a well-played shot as well, I have no doubt. A team of OSU or UK's caliber can turn it around in a half of a ball game, or even come out that way after looking horrible in the game beforehand.

That's why OSU is one of about 3 teams I hope UK does not have to face before the Final Four.

And I continue to have the utmost respect for Thad Matta, who I think is a great coach in this modern era.

bucksfan2
02-17-2012, 08:18 AM
It'd be Sullinger and Jones, with Davis coming over the top. Kentucky stands players up by playing strong with their lower body. Help defense comes over the top to block the shots.

The only time that any big scores is when Jones gets beat or Davis is late getting to his spot. (Or that big is able to score over/ through/ around Davis and Jones.)

Who would Davis guard? They play man to man don't they? If Davis is coming over the top it would mean he would be on Thomas who can play on the perimeter and I would imagine that Sullinger would be isolated on Jones if UK played it that way. Davis definately has the legnth to get to Sullinger but if Sullinger can get into him and get a few whistles it would change the game.

Just thinking about a potential matchup, thats all.

traderumor
02-17-2012, 09:43 AM
I must admit, traderumor, I do not prescribe to this theory. When you're talking teams as overall talented as UK and OSU, it doesn't take a long period of time for them to "snap back into form." If OSU were to face UK this weekend, we would get not only your best shot, but a well-played shot as well, I have no doubt. A team of OSU or UK's caliber can turn it around in a half of a ball game, or even come out that way after looking horrible in the game beforehand.

That's why OSU is one of about 3 teams I hope UK does not have to face before the Final Four.

And I continue to have the utmost respect for Thad Matta, who I think is a great coach in this modern era.Your theory was tested against Michigan St., and they fell flat on their face. While I get what you're saying, it wasn't that Ohio St. didn't give their best shot, so they played poorly in their worst game of the year in one of the biggest games of the year for acheiving a team goal (win the conference).

Their shooting was still not good Tuesday, except for Buford. Thomas and Smith can't hit the proverbial bull with a handful of nails, which is where I'm coming from. UK is bludgeoning folks right now, I don't expect them to play at that level all season. My history lessons tell me that the February peak can be deadly for the tournament grind.

A season ebbs and flows, and even the best of the best go through struggles, which currently OSU is not playing their best, primarily due to poor shooting, which is also an achilles heel of this team that I don't see being fixable this season. With that said, maybe they'll get hot in the tournament and Thomas and Smith will start hitting shots again. If not, I look for another disappointing Regional semis bow out.

With all that said, how about an OSU/UK NC game? That would be a fun game and would signal that both teams are at the top of their game if they made it that far.

Scrap Irony
02-17-2012, 03:02 PM
Who would Davis guard? They play man to man don't they? If Davis is coming over the top it would mean he would be on Thomas who can play on the perimeter and I would imagine that Sullinger would be isolated on Jones if UK played it that way. Davis definately has the legnth to get to Sullinger but if Sullinger can get into him and get a few whistles it would change the game.

Just thinking about a potential matchup, thats all.

Kentucky doesn't play anyone straight up. They help in the lane on anyone with the ball, usually with a big (Davis or Jones). The guards or forwards shoot the gaps looking for steals of rebounding alleys.

As to who Davis would guard, because Kentucky switches on pretty much all screens, he can (and has) guarded everyone from the center to the point guard. And he can do it all. He's the best defensive college basketball has seen in at least a decade, IMO.

I'm guessing Calipari would start them off:

Jones -- Sullinger
Davis -- Thomas
Kidd-Gilchrist -- Buford
Lamb -- Smith
Teague -- Craft

Kidd-Gilchrist might switch to Craft if his drives prove effective. That would move Teague to Smith and Lamb to Buford.

traderumor
02-18-2012, 11:03 PM
The score was a lot closer than that game. Ohio St. was totally outplayed. I guess if you're going to have a team shooting slump, have it in February.

Buford is one of THE most frustrating players in recent history for Ohio St. He is probably the difference maker in making this team Final Four material and he is still all or nothing from game to game.

But, I'm smelling another Regional Semis bow out and hearing about all the talent Matta's recruiting. My kingdom for a shooter.

BuckeyeRed27
02-18-2012, 11:09 PM
I didn't see much of he game, but what I did see made me glad I watch more NBA basketball than college.

cincrazy
02-18-2012, 11:28 PM
It's atrocious to watch college basketball. It's just a horrible quality of ball. And why can't this team put Ross on the floor? What would it hurt at this point? Just bad, bad basketball to watch.

dabvu2498
02-18-2012, 11:32 PM
It's atrocious to watch college basketball. It's just a horrible quality of ball. And why can't this team put Ross on the floor? What would it hurt at this point? Just bad, bad basketball to watch.

I disagree. I found the X-UD game and the St. Mary's-Murray game quite entertaining.

I don't understand why so many college teams have adopted this half court slow down slug it out style. Especially against a team like Michigan. The best way to beat a zone is to not let it set up. Beat it down the floor in transition.

Danny Serafini
02-19-2012, 01:12 AM
I can't remember the last time I saw a team homered that badly by the refs. It doesn't excuse the Buckeyes godawful shooting at all, but some of those offensive foul calls were downright embarrassing.

Reds/Flyers Fan
02-19-2012, 01:31 AM
It's atrocious to watch college basketball.

As opposed to disinterested pros who play a glorified game of one-on-one where eight players on the court sit back and watch the two token "stars" go at it in a game totally devoid of strategy and where the first three-and-a-half quarters are borderline irrelevant.

All this in front of half-dead crowds who wear suits to the game and need to be encouraged to chant "de-fense" by some computerized rhythmic beat?

Yuck. :thumbdown:

traderumor
02-19-2012, 09:05 AM
As opposed to disinterested pros who play a glorified game of one-on-one where eight players on the court sit back and watch the two token "stars" go at it in a game totally devoid of strategy and where the first three-and-a-half quarters are borderline irrelevant.

All this in front of half-dead crowds who wear suits to the game and need to be encouraged to chant "de-fense" by some computerized rhythmic beat?

Yuck. :thumbdown:This pretty much sums it up for me. I try to watch an NBA game now and then, and I love hoops, but the game just drones on, in each city there's some PA announcer elongating some guys' name, and it is difficult to stay interested.

I mean, if you like the NBA great, I used to watch it in the late 70s and early 80s regularly, but as hoops goes, it is probably the least interesting of all the levels. I'd rather watch a local youth game if given the choice.

traderumor
02-19-2012, 09:08 AM
It's atrocious to watch college basketball. It's just a horrible quality of ball. And why can't this team put Ross on the floor? What would it hurt at this point? Just bad, bad basketball to watch.He got a late start for one thing. Hard to catch a guy up in the middle of a conference schedule. While I would like to see a few more guys in the rotation, Matta is usually proven right when a guy is called on that hasn't gotten much playing time. It is usually apparent why that is.

bucksfan2
02-19-2012, 12:52 PM
I can't remember the last time I saw a team homered that badly by the refs. It doesn't excuse the Buckeyes godawful shooting at all, but some of those offensive foul calls were downright embarrassing.

I heard pretty much the same thing. I didn't really expect OSU to win that game. Michigan has a good team and is playing in their biggest marquee game in a number of years. That loss really doesn't change my view on OSU at all. They have the talent to win it all, they just need to get on a roll. I would rather have them begin to peak heading into the tournament rather than peaking at the B1G conference tournament which they have in the past couple of years.

Scrap Irony
02-19-2012, 01:37 PM
Ohio State couldn't shoot, true. Worse, they looked slow and unathletic. Perhaps it's the time of year or the grind of the Big Ten, or the February blahs, but the Buckeyes looked two steps behind all night.

That's not referee whistles-- that's a tired team. Or one that's exposed.

traderumor
02-19-2012, 07:25 PM
Ohio State couldn't shoot, true. Worse, they looked slow and unathletic. Perhaps it's the time of year or the grind of the Big Ten, or the February blahs, but the Buckeyes looked two steps behind all night.

That's not referee whistles-- that's a tired team. Or one that's exposed.Just shooting bad as a team. One guy a night hitting, the rest are shooting bricks. It will get better, its their weakness but its not this bad.

Mutaman
02-19-2012, 11:38 PM
I can't remember the last time I saw a team homered that badly by the refs. It doesn't excuse the Buckeyes godawful shooting at all, but some of those offensive foul calls were downright embarrassing.

Wow, I don't think I've ever heard a fan blame a loss on the refs before. Kudos to you for coming up with something new. :)

traderumor
02-20-2012, 12:37 AM
Wow, I don't think I've ever heard a fan blame a loss on the refs before. Kudos to you for coming up with something new. :)Just as predictable is the denial from those who are not fans of a team that refs have anything to do with the outcome of a basketball game. Charges vs. blocks are almost always close calls. That basically all of them went against the Buckeyes is suspicious. But they played poorly and didn't deserve to win that game. That doesn't mean the beef about the charges all going UM's way doesn't have merit.

bucksfan2
02-20-2012, 08:32 AM
Just as predictable is the denial from those who are not fans of a team that refs have anything to do with the outcome of a basketball game. Charges vs. blocks are almost always close calls. That basically all of them went against the Buckeyes is suspicious. But they played poorly and didn't deserve to win that game. That doesn't mean the beef about the charges all going UM's way doesn't have merit.

I didn't see much of the game. I did see the end when they were down 5 and Craft was driving to the basket and got hammered with no call.

Officiating doesn't determine the outcome of games. But it can make a huge difference in a game, especially in a close game.

Scrap Irony
02-20-2012, 08:59 AM
OSU shot more free throws, had two less fouls called on it, and shot more jumpers by a wide range, yet was somehow jobbed when it came to the referees?

Please.

OSU lost because only Sullinger and Thomas showed up. Buford had a crappy shooting game, Smith was MIA, and Craft played relatively poorly all night (especially when recognizing open shooters inside).

traderumor
02-20-2012, 10:02 AM
OSU shot more free throws, had two less fouls called on it, and shot more jumpers by a wide range, yet was somehow jobbed when it came to the referees?

Please.

OSU lost because only Sullinger and Thomas showed up. Buford had a crappy shooting game, Smith was MIA, and Craft played relatively poorly all night (especially when recognizing open shooters inside).
The game was a one/two possession difference throughout the second half. Apparently any mention of key calls (and close calls like charge/block) going the other team's way is saying "the refs jobbed us." I don't understand why observers who are not fans of the team in question think it is wrong to be frustrated about a few calls that didn't go their way in a close game. Why aren't those observations fair game? Yes, it could've been moot if they hit a few more jumpers, but it is still fair to note the importance of close calls.

I know Serafini "blamed" the refs, but I did not. It is a valid point, could have changed the outcome (that's five possessions, not all of those were charges), they lost by 3. Wouldn't it be great if it wasn't a valid point every freaking game? Wouldn't it be great if Sullinger didn't end the season with welts because Big 10 refs let more contact go with him than the rest of the league?

BTW, number of fouls and foul shots don't necessarily tell a story. Very shallow point.

WVRed
02-20-2012, 10:08 AM
It's easy to blame the refs on the road. Ohio State did lose a game in Columbus to Michigan State as well.

You could be West Virginia and blame it on leaving the Big East being the reason the refs are screwing you over in your games. :)

traderumor
02-20-2012, 10:16 AM
It's easy to blame the refs on the road. Ohio State did lose a game in Columbus to Michigan State as well.

You could be West Virginia and blame it on leaving the Big East being the reason the refs are screwing you over in your games. :)
And it was Ted Valentine's crew in Columbus and Ann Arbor, and there is already a lengthy discussion about that travesty. I don't think they're biased, they just suck. Any mention of refs is seen as "blaming refs," and sour grapes, but to me that's just picking low fruit by those who want to be dismissive in a discussion about a particular game. Everyone gets that every loss is not due to the refs, but still folks barge in and say "yea, OSU only loses when the refs screw 'em." What are there, two people out of a thousand who actually think that?

While we're on the subject, Big 10 refs have sucked for years, yet there seems to be some tenure system instead of a grading system. Tom Rucker, I used to sit in the stands under the basket as a student and man, that guy would miss call after call right in front of us. Ed Hightower? Completely awful, been that way for years, still calling games and has been for as long as I can remember. Jim Burr, now doing Big East I think, used to be Big 10, ugh, terrible the way he calls a game.

In fairness, bball is a very emotional game and I think college refs get caught up too much in making close calls that go with momentum more than they do making sure they get the call right. And it often results in the wrong call. Block or charge? Whichever motion I make first.

Danny Serafini
02-20-2012, 10:19 AM
Wow, I don't think I've ever heard a fan blame a loss on the refs before. Kudos to you for coming up with something new. :)

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen Mutaman troll a Buckeye thread before. Kudos to you for coming up with something new. :) Oh, wait...

Danny Serafini
02-20-2012, 10:20 AM
The game was a one/two possession difference throughout the second half. Apparently any mention of key calls (and close calls like charge/block) going the other team's way is saying "the refs jobbed us." I don't understand why observers who are not fans of the team in question think it is wrong to be frustrated about a few calls that didn't go their way in a close game. Why aren't those observations fair game? Yes, it could've been moot if they hit a few more jumpers, but it is still fair to note the importance of close calls.

I know Serafini "blamed" the refs, but I did not. It is a valid point, could have changed the outcome (that's five possessions, not all of those were charges), they lost by 3. Wouldn't it be great if it wasn't a valid point every freaking game? Wouldn't it be great if Sullinger didn't end the season with welts because Big 10 refs let more contact go with him than the rest of the league?

BTW, number of fouls and foul shots don't necessarily tell a story. Very shallow point.

Thank you for summing it up in better words than I could.

Scrap Irony
02-20-2012, 10:43 AM
I don't think they're biased, they just suck.

So if they only suck, they suck equally for both sides.

Therefore, the loss cannot be blamed on the refs, nec pas?

traderumor
02-20-2012, 11:14 AM
So if they only suck, they suck equally for both sides.

Therefore, the loss cannot be blamed on the refs, nec pas?
Again, I didn't "blame" them. I pointed out some questionable calls that meant as much as missed shots. Lost possessions are lost possessions. Also, overall sucking doesn't mean that in any particular game the poor calls don't favor one team over the other. The Buckeyes have had so many blowouts, there isn't much to say because the game didn't come down to a few possessions.

Are you really that shallow an observer of the game or are you just against all mention of close calls in the game as a potential factor in the outcome?

Scrap Irony
02-20-2012, 11:58 AM
Are you really that shallow an observer of the game or are you just against all mention of close calls in the game as a potential factor in the outcome?

If you're trying to get my goat by intimating insults, you'll have to try harder than this. The only person on my personal Ignore list is Sea Ray. And he's the king of this kind of insult.

I suppose I find ALL mention of referees "costing" OSU-- a physical, bruising, hand-checking, tough defensive team-- patently absurd. If they so chose, they could call the Buckeyes for a foul virtually every time down the court. Aaron Craft not only handchecks constantly but also pushes into his opponent with his lower body and shoulder bumps them constantly. One of his favorite tactics is to grab an opponents' off arm (usually the left) and fall backward to garner a charge call. Ironically, you see much of this, particularly against South Carolina, in a youtube video entitled Aaron Craft: Best One on One Defender. Not one foul was called on Craft, btw:

Aaron Craft Best One on One Defender in the Nation - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5eMds6q-Ac&feature=related)

Add to that Sullinger, who plays aggressively and has to out-physical opponents, as he's simply not as athletic as they are, and you've got OSU's two top guns that depend on officials looking the other way or swallowing whistles as a way of allowing "flow" in CBB games. And the next time they call an over the back call on Thomas will be the first.

(They're certainly not the only ones-- Michigan State, the entire Big East, much of the SEC-- all are guilty of muddying up a game meant to be much more fluid and graceful.)

As to the particular game, Michigan was called for three charges in 17 drives to the hoop. OSU was called for one block. (Drives to the hoop are from outside of the lane to inside the lane for a short jumper, layup, or dunk. They are both driddble-drives and pass-cut drives.) OSU, OTOH, had 12 drives and were called for one charge, with four fouls called on Michigan.

Michigan was the aggressor all night. OSU settled for jumpers more often than not.

In short, it had nothing to do with the officials. It had everything to do with OSU not playing well. They lost on their own. Period.

If that makes me shallow, you may want to simply put me on the Ignore list.

bucksfan2
02-20-2012, 12:30 PM
Your bringing up a South Carolina game to show how the officiating was good in the Michigan game? Seems like grasping at straws if you ask me.

Scrap Irony
02-20-2012, 12:42 PM
I brought up the South Carolina game to evidence Craft's agressive and physical brand of defense.

traderumor
02-20-2012, 01:22 PM
If you're trying to get my goat by intimating insults, you'll have to try harder than this. The only person on my personal Ignore list is Sea Ray. And he's the king of this kind of insult.

I suppose I find ALL mention of referees "costing" OSU-- a physical, bruising, hand-checking, tough defensive team-- patently absurd. If they so chose, they could call the Buckeyes for a foul virtually every time down the court. Aaron Craft not only handchecks constantly but also pushes into his opponent with his lower body and shoulder bumps them constantly. One of his favorite tactics is to grab an opponents' off arm (usually the left) and fall backward to garner a charge call. Ironically, you see much of this, particularly against South Carolina, in a youtube video entitled Aaron Craft: Best One on One Defender. Not one foul was called on Craft, btw:



Add to that Sullinger, who plays aggressively and has to out-physical opponents, as he's simply not as athletic as they are, and you've got OSU's two top guns that depend on officials looking the other way or swallowing whistles as a way of allowing "flow" in CBB games. And the next time they call an over the back call on Thomas will be the first.

(They're certainly not the only ones-- Michigan State, the entire Big East, much of the SEC-- all are guilty of muddying up a game meant to be much more fluid and graceful.)

As to the particular game, Michigan was called for three charges in 17 drives to the hoop. OSU was called for one block. (Drives to the hoop are from outside of the lane to inside the lane for a short jumper, layup, or dunk. They are both driddble-drives and pass-cut drives.) OSU, OTOH, had 12 drives and were called for one charge, with four fouls called on Michigan.

Michigan was the aggressor all night. OSU settled for jumpers more often than not.

In short, it had nothing to do with the officials. It had everything to do with OSU not playing well. They lost on their own. Period.

If that makes me shallow, you may want to simply put me on the Ignore list.I'm not sure what you base this on, if its a slippery definition or what, but I'm remembering at least five offensive fouls on charge calls. I think it was the announcer that made the claim.

As for the "insult," I could only assume you are a casual observer if you want to take the position that a close game wasn't impacted by charge/block calls. As I already indicated, Ohio St. played poorly, but those lost possessions due to ALL charge/blocks that were whistled on one end of the floor going a certain way were enough to make a difference. It is shallow to simply conclude "played poorly, therefore lost." Sometimes you play poorly and pull out a win, and getting a break on just two calls could have made the difference. NOTICE, that is not saying "it was the refs," but is saying, "boy, I wish they'd call games more consistently so the refs performance is INDEED a non-factor in a game."

I'll never get fans who outright dismiss displeasure at inconsistent officiating and get upset when the inconsistency makes officiating a factor in the outcome of a game. I think its a shallow position to take. That's not insulting you personally, just the shallowness of your position.

bucksfan2
02-20-2012, 01:25 PM
I brought up the South Carolina game to evidence Craft's agressive and physical brand of defense.

It holds very little correlation to a different game. Each game has its own flow to it. Each game can have critical calls and no-calls. Saying that against South Carolina Craft plays an aggressive style of defense and trying to link it to a game played a couple of months later makes no correlation.

If your a fan of a team there are games in which you say the officiating was awful. Its the nature of sports. You hope that it doesn't matter, but in close games whistles matter. Enjoy your dream season while it lasts, don't come in and bash OSU fans because we think we got the raw end of a couple of foul calls against Michigan.

traderumor
02-20-2012, 01:52 PM
Wow, watching the last two minutes of the game and am reminded how much fishy stuff was going on. And I did correctly recall the announcer's claim that it was five charges called against Ohio St.

Valentine starting over the count out top, Craft closely guarding Burke, Valentine starts over the 5 second count twice, there was no penetration, all the activity was above the hash mark, Craft continued to closely guard. Bilas noted it during the broadcast. Burke eventually took Craft to the hoop and made the layup.

The Craft drive and no call, fouled by two guys. Again, Bilas notes it was "no call, not no foul."

The travel on Smith after he was knocked to the floor after a rebound.

I will say the charge on Smith was legit.

Bilas must be a Buckeyes homer announcer.

Ok, gonna go suck on some more sour grapes, sore loser that I am.

Just food for thought, Valentine is starting to show up with some fishy officiating in Buckeyes games. Announcers are noting it, its starting to look personal.

dabvu2498
02-20-2012, 02:22 PM
Just food for thought, Valentine is starting to show up with some fishy officiating in Buckeyes games. Announcers are noting it, its starting to look personal.

Small sample size? Valentine has done 5 OSU games this season. They won the 1st 3 (Florida, Duke, Michigan).

http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/ted-valentine/schedule

That said, I think Valentine sucks and whether it is or not, it's always appears personal with him if he has to defend a call. It's just the way he is.

Also, these guys do way too many games. Valentine, for example, did 11 games in 9 different states in 4 different conferences in the last 2 weeks. I'd probably be a little starchy, too, with that schedule.

traderumor
02-20-2012, 04:26 PM
Small sample size? Valentine has done 5 OSU games this season. They won the 1st 3 (Florida, Duke, Michigan).

http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/ted-valentine/schedule

That said, I think Valentine sucks and whether it is or not, it's always appears personal with him if he has to defend a call. It's just the way he is.

Also, these guys do way too many games. Valentine, for example, did 11 games in 9 different states in 4 different conferences in the last 2 weeks. I'd probably be a little starchy, too, with that schedule.They probably have to do that to maximize their income. Great point.

Scrap Irony
02-20-2012, 05:44 PM
"Fishy officiating"

"Its [sic] starting to look personal"

Yeah, sour grapes.

And the box score said four.

As to my supposed "dream season," my team is enjoying its first losing record in a long, long time. The fans have decided they have better things to do, and my team has already fired one coach and has employed another coach that's been in trouble with the NCAA-- twice-- for questionable recruiting practices.

Not only that, one of the losses included the other team fielding SIX players at the crucial time of the game, thereby allowing said team to win with a layup in the closing seconds, all without the officials or the WKU coach knowing.

Sigh.

dabvu2498
02-20-2012, 06:10 PM
They probably have to do that to maximize their income. Great point.

I know a couple guys that do a few A-10 and MAC games on weekends and will maybe do a local JUCO, D3, or NAIA game during the week, while still having their "real" jobs during the winter.

A guy like Valentine is probably retired from whatever real job he might have once had. Not a way I'd want to try and make a living.

traderumor
02-20-2012, 08:48 PM
"Fishy officiating"

"Its [sic] starting to look personal"

Yeah, sour grapes.

And the box score said four.

As to my supposed "dream season," my team is enjoying its first losing record in a long, long time. The fans have decided they have better things to do, and my team has already fired one coach and has employed another coach that's been in trouble with the NCAA-- twice-- for questionable recruiting practices.

Not only that, one of the losses included the other team fielding SIX players at the crucial time of the game, thereby allowing said team to win with a layup in the closing seconds, all without the officials or the WKU coach knowing.

Sigh.You misquoted me. I said "fishy stuff." ;)

The Operator
02-21-2012, 07:56 PM
Heh, looks like they've cleaned up their shooting so far tonight vs. Illinois.

Ohayou
02-26-2012, 06:01 PM
...and that's why you make your free throws.

The Operator
02-26-2012, 06:06 PM
That's a tough one. They're really hurting themselves.

traderumor
02-26-2012, 09:10 PM
This team is officially underachieving. Gotta make an adjustment on offense to get Sullinger the ball. He's just not getting enough touches.

bucksfan2
02-27-2012, 08:16 AM
Frustrating right now. They just aren't playing great ball right now. I think Thad is actually coaching a little different this season than he has in the past. I tend to think that he is getting his team ready for the tournament, something he didn't do too well in the past 2 seasons.

I don't know what hasn't been clicking as of late. They were sloppy against Wisconsin trying to feed the post. It was almost like an edict to try it this way during the game. It was almost as if he was trying thing things out during game action. He also is getting Scott and Thompson more meaningful minutes in critical games. Scott isn't going to make any shots, but if Craft goes down with 2 fouls early Scott being able to run the point is a good thing.

Who knows with this team. They are one of the handful of teams that has the talent to win it all. They just haven't been winning games lately.

traderumor
02-27-2012, 09:49 AM
Frustrating right now. They just aren't playing great ball right now. I think Thad is actually coaching a little different this season than he has in the past. I tend to think that he is getting his team ready for the tournament, something he didn't do too well in the past 2 seasons.

I don't know what hasn't been clicking as of late. They were sloppy against Wisconsin trying to feed the post. It was almost like an edict to try it this way during the game. It was almost as if he was trying thing things out during game action. He also is getting Scott and Thompson more meaningful minutes in critical games. Scott isn't going to make any shots, but if Craft goes down with 2 fouls early Scott being able to run the point is a good thing.

Who knows with this team. They are one of the handful of teams that has the talent to win it all. They just haven't been winning games lately.Maybe they're as bored with winning the conference then taking an early exit in the tourney as I am. However, I'm becoming less and less of a fan of using so few guys off the bench. Wearing out your key guys in the regular season is not a good way to make a run in the tourney.

cincrazy
02-27-2012, 05:36 PM
I don't see the talent that everyone in the national media raves about. I've been critical of this team from day one, and they haven't done anything to ease my criticism. They don't play as a team, they can't shoot, they can't get to the basket, they're not good at feeding their big man. And when they do, he's undersized and against longer opponents gets shut down rather easily. This is a good team. But a lot of good teams make the tournament every year and see quick exits. This team was overrated from the beginning. The freshman he brought in are overrated, and the seniors that left last year (Lighty, Diebler, Lauderdale) are BIG TIME underrated.

Hoosier Red
02-27-2012, 07:47 PM
This team is officially underachieving. Gotta make an adjustment on offense to get Sullinger the ball. He's just not getting enough touches.

Following IU games on through Twitter, one can usually observe a good 4 minute stretch of "PASS THE #&#&! BALL To CODY!" Sounds like Ohio State has similar issues.

I feel certain they'll straighten that out.

WMR
02-27-2012, 10:04 PM
OSU misses Diebler more than anyone, IMO.

That kid had huge heart.

Redsfaithful
02-27-2012, 10:32 PM
Yeah Diebler is the guy I am missing the most this year. He was fun to watch and I think a little more key than some fans might have realized, especially in hindsight.

Revering4Blue
02-28-2012, 06:46 AM
Lauderdale hasn't been replaced, either. Ravenel hasn't stepped up. Hence, my earlier point about Williams.

bucksfan2
02-28-2012, 08:36 AM
I don't see the talent that everyone in the national media raves about. I've been critical of this team from day one, and they haven't done anything to ease my criticism. They don't play as a team, they can't shoot, they can't get to the basket, they're not good at feeding their big man. And when they do, he's undersized and against longer opponents gets shut down rather easily. This is a good team. But a lot of good teams make the tournament every year and see quick exits. This team was overrated from the beginning. The freshman he brought in are overrated, and the seniors that left last year (Lighty, Diebler, Lauderdale) are BIG TIME underrated.

Oh I disagree. They have 3 NBA players in their starting 5 (Sully, Thomas, Buford). They don't have a pure outside shooter, but have 2 guys who when hot can knock them down with the best of them. They miss a guy like Diebler and Lighty but every team who loses a 4 year or even 5 year starter like Lighty misses them.

The thing about this team is with the exception of Kansas (and maybe MSU) their losses have really been coin flips, one possesion type loss. With the exception of Illinois all their losses have come to top 20 teams who are going to be good seeds in the tournament. When I looked at their remaining schedule a few weeks ago the games I knew they couldn't run the table, and knew that games @UM, MSU @MSU, @Wisc, Wisc all could be toss up games. Its a gauntlet they are running through right now, probably as tough of a schedule as anyone in the nation down the stretch. I think a 2 seed is attainable and am hopeful that the worst they get is a 3 seed. Other than UK and Syracuse there aren't any other teams that I fear as an OSU fan.

traderumor
02-28-2012, 09:45 AM
I don't see the talent that everyone in the national media raves about. I've been critical of this team from day one, and they haven't done anything to ease my criticism. They don't play as a team, they can't shoot, they can't get to the basket, they're not good at feeding their big man. And when they do, he's undersized and against longer opponents gets shut down rather easily. This is a good team. But a lot of good teams make the tournament every year and see quick exits. This team was overrated from the beginning. The freshman he brought in are overrated, and the seniors that left last year (Lighty, Diebler, Lauderdale) are BIG TIME underrated.They are underachieving, but there is a boatload of talent on this team. The problem is that it is comprised of freshman and sophomores. If this team stayed together with the two classes they have right now, they would be scary good the next two seasons. Sullinger though is likely gone, but I kind of wonder if that may not be the best thing to happen to make this a more athletic team.

What you are seeing right now is the second time through the Big 10 season and teams have made good adjustments against the Buckeyes that they have yet to counter. Both involve Sullinger. On the offensive end, teams are simply taking away Sullinger and daring the rest to beat them. The rest have not been up to the task. On the defensive end, the opponent is pulling Sullinger out from the basket with high ball screens and taking advantage of the switch or getting easy layups on the roll as Sullinger is a step behind. Those are two keys that have made the Bucks hit this slump.

I hate the zone, but I'm starting to wonder if a lot of box and one with Craft chasing the scoring guard isn't a necessary change. It could hide two below average defenders in Sullinger and Thomas.

Oh, and please Thad, play more of your bench the rest of the way. If you want to stick with your 7-8 in the tourney, at least rest them from now through the Big 10 Tourney.

Wishful thinking, I'm sure.

traderumor
02-29-2012, 10:53 PM
Matta driving me crazy. They had the game under control, force NW to play man to man down the stretch, so you have your point guard stand at half court and hold the ball until about 10 seconds on the clock? Never stop attacking in the 3 point era, man, just not understanding that strategy call. Lucky to get out of there with the W after controlling the first 36 minutes of the game on the road.

The Operator
03-04-2012, 06:32 PM
Now THAT was an impressive win.

forfreelin04
03-04-2012, 06:35 PM
Now THAT was an impressive win.

Win of the year. The first ten minutes of the game compared to the last ten was night and day. I almost turned the TV off. Glad I didn't.. What a game!!:beerme:

forfreelin04
03-04-2012, 06:39 PM
Lauderdale hasn't been replaced, either. Ravenel hasn't stepped up. Hence, my earlier point about Williams.

Ravenel sure did today. Arguably, he was the player of the game after Buford. His minutes were the most important for OSU with Sully out with 4 fouls.

traderumor
03-04-2012, 06:55 PM
I will take Ravenal as player of the game. He did what Sullinger could not: drive, draw D, dish. What a performance. And Buford does not get his chance to win if Ravenal doesn't make the stop on Green on MSU's last possession. Forced a fade away 12 footer.

A closely called game turned into a foul fest, but we see how it was an equalizer.

Another important point down the stretch: Sullinger kicked the ball out twice for open jumpers by Thomas and Craft down the stretch. I was waiting for him to force it like he had tried unsuccessfully in two MSU games, but he kicked it out. Good adjustment........finally.

As for the clock adjustments, I guess they were just bound determined to at least give MSU a good look. The .8 was right in the first place, and the .7 was a joke. Anyhow, no miracle this time. :beerme:

Hopefully, this game awakened the boys. I was resigning to a 3-4 seed, now I think they may have clinched a 2 with that win.

Greg Anthony has to be shaking his head right now.

VottoFan54
03-04-2012, 08:15 PM
I will take Ravenal as player of the game. He did what Sullinger could not: drive, draw D, dish. What a performance. And Buford does not get his chance to win if Ravenal doesn't make the stop on Green on MSU's last possession. Forced a fade away 12 footer.

A closely called game turned into a foul fest, but we see how it was an equalizer.

Another important point down the stretch: Sullinger kicked the ball out twice for open jumpers by Thomas and Craft down the stretch. I was waiting for him to force it like he had tried unsuccessfully in two MSU games, but he kicked it out. Good adjustment........finally.

As for the clock adjustments, I guess they were just bound determined to at least give MSU a good look. The .8 was right in the first place, and the .7 was a joke. Anyhow, no miracle this time. :beerme:

Hopefully, this game awakened the boys. I was resigning to a 3-4 seed, now I think they may have clinched a 2 with that win.

Greg Anthony has to be shaking his head right now.

Both teams played good games today. MSU really struggles at times when Green is not on the court. OSU played well and they showed what they can do when they knock down some shots. OSU almost seemed like a better offensive team when Sully wasn't on the court down the stretch. They seem to force it to him sometimes instead of giving the ball to a guy like Buford or Craft. Both teams played solid defense in those last two possessions, Buford hit a tough shot and Green didn't. As an MSU fan I am in awe of Craft's defense, he is an incredible defender. OSU and MSU both had unexpected guys step up in the second half, MSU had Nix, but OSU answered with Ravenal.

bucksfan2
03-05-2012, 08:57 AM
I think OSU chances in the tournament will come down to Buford. Other than Sullinger he can create a mismatch and can make his own shots. He can shoot and make tough shots. And when you break it all down he is OSU's best pure 3 point shooter.

As for the MSU it was a heck of a comeback for OSU. Ravenal played great in streatches but I think you have to give a lot of credit to Buford taking control of the game and Thomas for defending Green. The one thing I am shocked about is OSU doesn't have anyone coming off the bench who can shoot the ball. They don't have a pure shooter to stretch the D. They are one of the rare teams in college who don't shoot a large percentage of 3's. It would be nice of Craft would shoot from outside a little more. He is more than capable of knocking down the shots, just is a pass first PG.

Roy Tucker
03-05-2012, 09:36 AM
Interesting comments about the Buckeyes (and other teams) here:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/02/29/scouting.reports/index.html?sct=cb_wr_a3

traderumor
03-05-2012, 09:51 AM
I think OSU chances in the tournament will come down to Buford. Other than Sullinger he can create a mismatch and can make his own shots. He can shoot and make tough shots. And when you break it all down he is OSU's best pure 3 point shooter.

As for the MSU it was a heck of a comeback for OSU. Ravenal played great in streatches but I think you have to give a lot of credit to Buford taking control of the game and Thomas for defending Green. The one thing I am shocked about is OSU doesn't have anyone coming off the bench who can shoot the ball. They don't have a pure shooter to stretch the D. They are one of the rare teams in college who don't shoot a large percentage of 3's. It would be nice of Craft would shoot from outside a little more. He is more than capable of knocking down the shots, just is a pass first PG.Id' have to disagree that Thomas defended Green. The only stop they got on him down the stretch was Ravenal.

I think that is why MSU have OSU fits this year, because our worst two defenders just happen to be our entire interior defense. Any team with a strong post player is going to have an easy day against Sullinger and Thomas.

forfreelin04
03-05-2012, 07:27 PM
Interesting comments about the Buckeyes (and other teams) here:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/02/29/scouting.reports/index.html?sct=cb_wr_a3

Spoken like a Duke grad who is still smarting from the butt whipping his alma mater received early in the season.

Hoosier Red
03-06-2012, 06:50 PM
Spoken like a Duke grad who is still smarting from the butt whipping his alma mater received early in the season.

I love how a national writer's alma mater always prejudices him against the subject of his articles. Especially when we consider what a fierce rivalry tOSU and Duke enjoy after having played 6 times, and 2 times since Seth Davis attended the University. (Probably at Seth Davis' request because he's undoubtedly terrified of what he'd have to write if it became an annual game.)

Maybe Sports Illustrated should not hire anyone who went to college in the United States so as to not allow for the prejudice to set in.

BuckeyeRed27
03-06-2012, 07:09 PM
I love how a national writer's alma mater always prejudices him against the subject of his articles. Especially when we consider what a fierce rivalry tOSU and Duke enjoy after having played 6 times, and 2 times since Seth Davis attended the University. (Probably at Seth Davis' request because he's undoubtedly terrified of what he'd have to write if it became an annual game.)

Maybe Sports Illustrated should not hire anyone who went to college in the United States so as to not allow for the prejudice to set in.

I'm pretty sure that article was just quotes from other people too. He organized them, but he didn't really "write" the article.

bucksfan2
03-07-2012, 09:53 AM
I love how a national writer's alma mater always prejudices him against the subject of his articles. Especially when we consider what a fierce rivalry tOSU and Duke enjoy after having played 6 times, and 2 times since Seth Davis attended the University. (Probably at Seth Davis' request because he's undoubtedly terrified of what he'd have to write if it became an annual game.)

Maybe Sports Illustrated should not hire anyone who went to college in the United States so as to not allow for the prejudice to set in.

I think Jay Bilas is one of the best commentators in the game, but I think his performance slacks off when it comes to doing a Duke game. I can say the same thing about Dick Vitale, but is unbearable when it comes to doing a Duke game. I think there is some validity when some national writers talk about their alma mater. I also think that what he said about OSU was pretty apt. That said the dismantling that OSU did to Duke was pretty impressive. I am sure it left a bad taste in many Duke fans mouth.

Hoosier Red
03-07-2012, 11:16 AM
I think Jay Bilas is one of the best commentators in the game, but I think his performance slacks off when it comes to doing a Duke game. I can say the same thing about Dick Vitale, but is unbearable when it comes to doing a Duke game. I think there is some validity when some national writers talk about their alma mater. I also think that what he said about OSU was pretty apt. That said the dismantling that OSU did to Duke was pretty impressive. I am sure it left a bad taste in many Duke fans mouth.

I probably shouldn't have been so harsh. It's a pet peeve of mine.

My guess is that there's probably more of a perceived bias than normal Bilas tends to give an inside look at Coach K's thinking and dealing with the players. As a former player, there's no doubt that he's sympathetic to Coach K's side of things. That said, I don't think he's any slower to criticize a Duke player than an opponent.

I also think that by the time a writer and/or announcer has reched the status of ESPN or Sports Illustrated, they are no longer fans of a team perse, but usually are fans of the coaches and players with whom they've developed a relationship over the years.

I know watching Dan Dakich do an IU game, you'd never know that he's an IU grad . You may get a feeling that the current head coach was chosen over him on occassion?

bucksfan2
03-07-2012, 01:21 PM
I probably shouldn't have been so harsh. It's a pet peeve of mine.

My guess is that there's probably more of a perceived bias than normal Bilas tends to give an inside look at Coach K's thinking and dealing with the players. As a former player, there's no doubt that he's sympathetic to Coach K's side of things. That said, I don't think he's any slower to criticize a Duke player than an opponent.

I also think that by the time a writer and/or announcer has reched the status of ESPN or Sports Illustrated, they are no longer fans of a team perse, but usually are fans of the coaches and players with whom they've developed a relationship over the years.

I know watching Dan Dakich do an IU game, you'd never know that he's an IU grad . You may get a feeling that the current head coach was chosen over him on occassion?

I think its very difficult to disassociate yourself from your alma mater. I think its difficult to do and I also think it does a disservice to the fans watching the game to hear an alum do the game. By the time you get to the major networks or website you have lost some bias, but there will always be bias there. I think Jay Bilas is one of the best in the game, but I think he doesn't do nearly as good of a job when doing a Duke game, or prompted to talk about Duke.

Dan Dakich is a good example. He did about 5 or 6 OSU games in a row and even made comments about OSU fans having to deal with him for yet another game. He improved as the season went along in his bias against OSU, but it was still there at times. He played at IU, coached at IU and BGSU, he is going to have a bias towards OSU that will come out, its only human.

I remember listening to Dan Patrick quite a bit when he was on espn radio. He used to make the comment that he roots for the story and no longer the team. Its easy to disassociate yourself when your alma mater is Dayton, who doesn't share a large national presence. And while I did realize he was a Bengals and Reds fan at times, he was a fan of the story.

At times I think people go to far in trying to prove they aren't an alma mater fan. I think Kirk Herbstreit at times has gone to those legnths. I also think that the people who have the most success with make it known that they are an alumni and a fan and don't tap dance around the issue. I do think the networks do those individuals a disservice by making them do their teams games.

Hoosier Red
03-07-2012, 03:07 PM
I think its very difficult to disassociate yourself from your alma mater. I think its difficult to do and I also think it does a disservice to the fans watching the game to hear an alum do the game. By the time you get to the major networks or website you have lost some bias, but there will always be bias there. I think Jay Bilas is one of the best in the game, but I think he doesn't do nearly as good of a job when doing a Duke game, or prompted to talk about Duke.

Dan Dakich is a good example. He did about 5 or 6 OSU games in a row and even made comments about OSU fans having to deal with him for yet another game. He improved as the season went along in his bias against OSU, but it was still there at times. He played at IU, coached at IU and BGSU, he is going to have a bias towards OSU that will come out, its only human.

I remember listening to Dan Patrick quite a bit when he was on espn radio. He used to make the comment that he roots for the story and no longer the team. Its easy to disassociate yourself when your alma mater is Dayton, who doesn't share a large national presence. And while I did realize he was a Bengals and Reds fan at times, he was a fan of the story.

At times I think people go to far in trying to prove they aren't an alma mater fan. I think Kirk Herbstreit at times has gone to those legnths. I also think that the people who have the most success with make it known that they are an alumni and a fan and don't tap dance around the issue. I do think the networks do those individuals a disservice by making them do their teams games.

It's remarkable how you notice the biases coming out against tOSU so often :)

I think fans probably perceive the bias more strongly because any criticism could be rooted in bias and could be rooted in fact but fans perceive the criticism to be rooted in bias.

Also remember, fans are much more attached to their schools then the players and especially coaches are. It's a job to them.

BuckeyeRed27
03-10-2012, 04:27 PM
Good start for the Bucks. Lots of good looks and playing solid D.

kaldaniels
03-10-2012, 04:42 PM
Might get the regulars some rest in the second half at this pace...we'll see. Of course UM is not to be counted out.

BuckeyeRed27
03-10-2012, 06:28 PM
Nice win. When the Bucks play like that they can beat anybody. Drubbing Michigan is fun too.

traderumor
03-10-2012, 06:48 PM
It all comes down to making the extra pass on offense. When they have done that this season, they blow people out. When they start taking first available shot, that's when they struggle.

It looks like they answered the bell and the MSU comeback has reenergized them. Tomorrow is a fun game for both teams, but I don't think it will impact their seeding. Both are probably 2s.