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View Full Version : Braves organization making strong push to get Dale Murphy in the Hall of Fame



savafan
11-16-2011, 07:56 PM
Murphy is one of those players who as a kid I thought was a lot better than I've come to realize he really was as an adult. Perhaps his numbers become overshadowed by the steroid era that came at the end and after his playing career. John Schuerholz and several old time Braves are making a strong push with the writers to get Murphy elected to the HOF.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111116&content_id=25986160&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb


Murphy's supporters have continued to point out that he led all Major League outfielders during the 1980s in home runs (308) and RBIs (929). He ranked second among outfielders during this span in hits (1,553) and extra-base hits (596).

But Murphy's candidacy has seemingly been hindered by his .265 lifetime batting average, which was damaged during some unproductive years late in his career. He hit .289 from 1982-87, and batted .238 from '88 until the end of his career in '93.

reds1869
11-16-2011, 07:59 PM
We must be about the same age. When I was a kid I thought Murphy was great.

Yachtzee
11-16-2011, 08:04 PM
I still have my Dale Murphy signature glove. That being said, there are others more worthy.

George Anderson
11-16-2011, 08:23 PM
He was really great for several years but that is not long enough.

If he gets in then that opens the flood gates for Dave Parker, Vada Pinson, Dwight Evans etc.

RedlegJake
11-16-2011, 10:28 PM
He was really great for several years but that is not long enough.

If he gets in then that opens the flood gates for Dave Parker, Vada Pinson, Dwight Evans etc.

Exactly my thought. He was the same kind of player as those mentioned - HOF caliber but for too limited a number of seasons. Had he produced at that level for another 4-5 years he'd have been an easy selection, as would Pinson or Parker if they had an extra 4 or 5 years like their 5 prime seasons.

RedsBaron
11-16-2011, 10:49 PM
He was really great for several years but that is not long enough.

If he gets in then that opens the flood gates for Dave Parker, Vada Pinson, Dwight Evans etc.

For several years I put Dale Murphy in a quartet with three of his contemporaries, all outfielders and all IMO borderline HOF candidates. The other three were Dave Parker, Andre Dawson and Jim Rice. I never thought any one of them had an overwhelming case for induction and still do not. Dawson and Rice of course were eventually inducted. I am not convinced that Dawson and Rice were more qualified for the honor than are Murphy and Parker.

kaldaniels
11-16-2011, 10:52 PM
He was really great for several years but that is not long enough.

If he gets in then that opens the flood gates for Dave Parker, Vada Pinson, Dwight Evans etc.

You hit it on the head. Not long enough.

15fan
11-16-2011, 11:06 PM
The first product of the Ted Turner TBS media empire.

He went downhill in a hurry.

George Anderson
11-17-2011, 12:09 AM
For several years I put Dale Murphy in a quartet with three of his contemporaries, all outfielders and all IMO borderline HOF candidates. The other three were Dave Parker, Andre Dawson and Jim Rice. I never thought any one of them had an overwhelming case for induction and still do not. Dawson and Rice of course were eventually inducted. I am not convinced that Dawson and Rice were more qualified for the honor than are Murphy and Parker.

I think Parker's drug abuse hurt him with the writers and of course his overall career performance. From ages 30-34 he went from putting up future HOF type numbers to being a complete dud. I would wager to say it was due to his drug abuse. Had he not wasted those prime years he would have made Cooperstown easy.

MrCinatit
11-17-2011, 12:25 AM
Murphy goes in, Eric Davis goes in. I have absolutely nothing to back this up with, but just thought it sounded good.

westofyou
11-17-2011, 12:38 AM
Dale =Jim Edmonds, good player, not HOF worthy

redsfandan
11-17-2011, 06:55 AM
Exactly my thought. He was the same kind of player as those mentioned - HOF caliber but for too limited a number of seasons. Had he produced at that level for another 4-5 years he'd have been an easy selection, as would Pinson or Parker if they had an extra 4 or 5 years like their 5 prime seasons.

Whenever I hear that argument I always think of Koufax. He's in the Hall of Fame based on 5 seasons.

RedsBaron
11-17-2011, 08:01 AM
Whenever I hear that argument I always think of Koufax. He's in the Hall of Fame based on 5 seasons.

Koufax was the "exception that proved the rule." If Dale Murphy had had, say, five seasons in which he lead the league in hitting each year, and in three of those seasons had been the unanimous MVP, lead the Braves to three World Series and was twice World Series MVP, and was being called by many as the greatest outfielder of all time, before retiring at age 30 because of an injury, then he may be in the HOF.

Vottomatic
11-17-2011, 08:30 AM
It's kind of like Bo Jackson in the NFL. Short career, but was the most gifted dominant running back, maybe of all time. We will never know what he might have accomplished if Kevin Walker hadn't ended Bo's career with that hit. I think Bo, in his short time in the NFL, has the most runs of 90+ yards ever. I would put Bo in the HOF, if he isn't already. Clearly he impacted the game, was a game changer, and the NFL had hardly seen anything like him up until then.

Was Dale Murphy the premier outfielder of his day and was he dominant?

I'm 46 and remember him pretty well. I'm iffy on whether he is HOF worthy.

dabvu2498
11-17-2011, 08:33 AM
I still have my Dale Murphy signature glove. That being said, there are others more worthy.

Rawlings RBG36. Still have mine too.

cumberlandreds
11-17-2011, 08:41 AM
Murphy has some great seasons but just not enough of them. He fell off the map very quickly. Very good player but not HOF worthy.

redsfandan
11-17-2011, 09:22 AM
Koufax was the "exception that proved the rule." If Dale Murphy had had, say, five seasons in which he lead the league in hitting each year, and in three of those seasons had been the unanimous MVP, lead the Braves to three World Series and was twice World Series MVP, and was being called by many as the greatest outfielder of all time, before retiring at age 30 because of an injury, then he may be in the HOF.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. Both players were elite, HOF caliber, players for only 5-6 years. That's why they got any consideration. One made it into the HOF without ANY problem based on those 5-6 years and the other has been on the ballot for years and has had a hard time just getting votes. To me Koufax was an exception that set a precedent that should help make players like Murphy at the very least debatable. But, it seems that many are quick to dismiss him before considering him.

To me the HOF is about the game of baseball and the very best players that played the game. And I don't think that there were many players better than Murphy in the 80's. I think a case can be made for all these guys. But, Murphy had it all. Power, defense, speed, multiple MVP's, gold gloves, silver sluggers, a 30-30 season. He may never make it in but if he does I won't have any problem with it.

klw
11-17-2011, 09:35 AM
Albert Belle should get the the HOF long before Murphy. Murphy had a nice 6-7 year run but as stringent as baseball makes getting into the HOF, he falls short. If this was the Pro Football HOF he should be in. Why is it people care who gets in the MLB HOF so much more than any other sport? Really would the world be worse off if they let in a few more guys- at least if they were better than all those Pirates that the Veterans Committee let in all those years ago.

Roy Tucker
11-17-2011, 09:37 AM
Koufax was the "exception that proved the rule." If Dale Murphy had had, say, five seasons in which he lead the league in hitting each year, and in three of those seasons had been the unanimous MVP, lead the Braves to three World Series and was twice World Series MVP, and was being called by many as the greatest outfielder of all time, before retiring at age 30 because of an injury, then he may be in the HOF.

I agree.

I think the difference between Koufax and Murphy is that Koufax in his 5-6 year run was brilliantly phenomenal. Murphy was excellent, but Koufax's run was something to behold.

And that Koufax retired at his peak after a 27-9 1.73 ERA season at the age of 30. Murphy somewhat mysteriously declined fairly precipitously and hung around baseball as a very average player.

Dan
11-17-2011, 09:46 AM
I hope he gets in only because I have a baseball signed by the '83 Braves team. :)

George Anderson
11-17-2011, 10:07 AM
Sorry, but I don't buy it. Both players were elite, HOF caliber, players for only 5-6 years. That's why they got any consideration. One made it into the HOF without ANY problem based on those 5-6 years and the other has been on the ballot for years and has had a hard time just getting votes. To me Koufax was an exception that set a precedent that should help make players like Murphy at the very least debatable. But, it seems that many are quick to dismiss him before considering him.

To me the HOF is about the game of baseball and the very best players that played the game. And I don't think that there were many players better than Murphy in the 80's. I think a case can be made for all these guys. But, Murphy had it all. Power, defense, speed, multiple MVP's, gold gloves, silver sluggers, a 30-30 season. He may never make it in but if he does I won't have any problem with it.

When baseball historians are asked who was the greatest left handed pitcher of all time, if Koufax isn't listed as #1 then he is no doubt listed in the top #5. If you ask baseball historians who the greatest outfielder of all time was, Murphy wouldn't even get mentioned in the top 20.

Bottom line is Koufax's era of dominance was many, many notches above Murphy's era of dominance.

mdccclxix
11-17-2011, 10:55 AM
I agree, no to Murphy, yes to the Big Hurt, that guy was phenomenal. Incidentally, Rolen has 66 bWAR, if he adds 4 more this year and retires "on top" in that way, I think he's a lock for the HOF, 3rd or 4th ballot. I think enough "baseball people" recognize him as being the best 3b defender of the last 30-40 years, as well as being a huge offensive force for a decade. He's a lot like Griffey Jr in a way, dealing with crippling injuries. Not to hijack this thread, sorry.

dfs
11-17-2011, 11:08 AM
Nothing against Murphy, but it just didn't last long enough. He got to the peak where you expect a HOF player to get....he just didn't stay there long enough.

kaldaniels
11-17-2011, 11:30 AM
Comparing Koufax's run to Murphy's is an insult to Sandy.

redsfandan
11-17-2011, 12:35 PM
When baseball historians are asked who was the greatest left handed pitcher of all time, if Koufax isn't listed as #1 then he is no doubt listed in the top #5. If you ask baseball historians who the greatest outfielder of all time was, Murphy wouldn't even get mentioned in the top 20.

Bottom line is Koufax's era of dominance was many, many notches above Murphy's era of dominance.

Murphy played in an era right before home runs in the game increased. So, it can be easy to diminish how much power he had since his numbers weren't as big a deal a few years later. Although he did have more homers than anyone else in the game from '81-'90. On the other hand, Koufax pitched in an era of pitching dominance, which included a miniscule 1.12 era season by Bob Gibson, and then a few years after Koufax retired the mound was lowered to help batters. Also Koufax retired at the top of his game while Murphy didn't so the less dominant seasons were the last ones for Murphy and vice versa for Koufax which seems to affect peoples thinking as this thread shows. Nevermind the fact that health played a part in the demise of Murphy as well since he missed an average of 90 games in his last 5 years when from '82-'90 he'd only miss an average of 3 a year. All that doesn't change the fact that they both had roughly the same amount of seasons as elite players. I think those kind of things are important. Maybe you don't. That's fine.

I realize that Koufax was one of the best pitchers in the history of the game. I just think people underrate how good Murphy was. Koufax made it into the HOF in his very 1st year EASILY with 86.87% of the vote. While Murphy hasn't received more than 23% of the vote in any of his 12 years. If Murphy received more consideration than that it wouldn't bother me in the least. Would it really bother you?

Now, I actually NEVER said that Murphy and Koufax were on the SAME par. Did I? No I didn't. MY argument is that how long Koufax was on top didn't adversely affect his chances of making the HOF in the least. But, it seems to have KILLED the chances for Murphy and THAT is the most popular argument against Murphy. That he wasn't a HOF caliber player ENOUGH years. But, NOT that he wasn't one.

George Anderson
11-17-2011, 12:47 PM
MY argument is that how long Koufax was on top didn't adversely affect his chances of making the HOF in the least. But, it seems to have KILLED the chances for Murphy and THAT is the most popular argument against Murphy. That he wasn't a HOF caliber player ENOUGH years. But, NOT that he wasn't one.

Murphy's peak years were not on the same par as Koufax's peak years. Koufax's peak years made him easily one of the all time 5 greatest lefties while Murphy's peak years won't even put him in the top 20.

I agree however that Murphy's vote total was a little unfair.

TRF
11-17-2011, 12:56 PM
2 time MVP on a poor braves team. 5 GG's 4 SS's, hit for power in the era just before steroids. was arguably one of the most famous players of his era. Never a hint of controversy. Missed a total of 27 games from 1982-1990.

Reggie Jackson, the player baseball reference says Murphy is most similar to by age is in the HOF. Yes he has more HR's, and played longer 21 seasons to Murphy's 14, but Jackson was a butcher in the field, began the transition to DH at age 35.

I am not saying Murphy was a better hitter than Jackson. He was a better overall player though.

I have no problem with him in the HOF. And that is my opinion.

George Anderson
11-17-2011, 01:06 PM
2 time MVP on a poor braves team. 5 GG's 4 SS's, hit for power in the era just before steroids. was arguably one of the most famous players of his era. Never a hint of controversy. Missed a total of 27 games from 1982-1990.

Reggie Jackson, the player baseball reference says Murphy is most similar to by age is in the HOF. Yes he has more HR's, and played longer 21 seasons to Murphy's 14, but Jackson was a butcher in the field, began the transition to DH at age 35.

I am not saying Murphy was a better hitter than Jackson. He was a better overall player though.

I have no problem with him in the HOF. And that is my opinion.

I think the difference is Jackson had a huge presence in October while Murphy saw but one NLCS playoff appearance. Whether it is fair or not it seems the writers take into account WS performances or lack there of.

I think seeing WS hero Bill Mazeroski being inducted while other similar second basemen like Frank White are ignored is a perect example.

_Sir_Charles_
11-17-2011, 01:20 PM
I don't think many people would be upset if Murph got in. I only think it would re-open debates on several other borderline candidates. His stats may not be as great as others, but he didn't exactly play in the offensive era as others did either. He's a worthy player...but so are many others.

redsfandan
11-17-2011, 01:23 PM
Murphy's peak years were not on the same par as Koufax's peak years. Koufax's peak years made him easily one of the all time 5 greatest lefties while Murphy's peak years won't even put him in the top 20.

I agree however that Murphy's vote total was a little unfair.

Again, I never said that they were on the same par.

But, as far as Murphy's peak years not even putting him in the top 20...
From '82-'87 he had a 913 ops, 145 ops+, averaged 36 homers 18 sb and over 100 runs and rbi, and earned 5 gold gloves with (I think) not all, but most of those games in centerfield. It's not like he was an average leftfielder with a good bat. In his career he played over a thousand games in center. Now, how many centerfielders were better? Could he be in the top 20?

George Anderson
11-17-2011, 01:40 PM
. Now, how many centerfielders were better? Could he be in the top 20?

He played in almost as many games in RF as he did in CF but I would say he likely would be in the top 20 of all time to play CF.

I won't lose any sleep if Murphy gets in. I just would see him in the HOF at the same level of Don Sutton, Bill Mazeroski, Earle Combs etc. while Koufax is at the level of Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams etc. You are simply letting in yet another border line candidate that will open up more arguments for the likes of Tony Oliva, Vada Pinson, Dick Allen etc..

Col_ IN Reds fan
11-17-2011, 01:45 PM
If we have to debate about a player to get in that has been eligible for awhile, than that player is not HOF worthy. Murphy needed about 3 more good years at the end.

TRF
11-17-2011, 01:56 PM
How many people think Murphy isn't deserving but Concepcion is? Just curious.

redsfandan
11-17-2011, 01:57 PM
He played in almost as many games in RF as he did in CF but I would say he likely would be in the top 20 of all time to play CF.

I won't lose any sleep if Murphy gets in. I just would see him in the HOF at the same level of Don Sutton, Bill Mazeroski, Earle Combs etc. while Koufax is at the level of Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams etc. You are simply letting in yet another border line candidate that will open up more arguments for the likes of Tony Oliva, Vada Pinson, Dick Allen etc..
Right, for his career it's more even between the two positions. I was just concentrating on his 'elite HOF caliber' years.

That's somewhat fair about the grouping though. I mean I'd have Murphy above someone like Mazeroski but, sure, below Koufax.


If we have to debate about a player to get in that has been eligible for awhile, than that player is not HOF worthy. Murphy needed about 3 more good years at the end.
Well, you'd have to get rid of the veterans committee.

George Anderson
11-17-2011, 01:59 PM
How many people think Murphy isn't deserving but Concepcion is? Just curious.

My bar for the HOF is high so I don't think Davey is worthy. I don't exactly think Reese or Rizzuto should be in either.

dfs
11-17-2011, 02:03 PM
If we have to debate about a player to get in that has been eligible for awhile, than that player is not HOF worthy.
I suspect there are a boatload of folks who would disagree with this.


My bar for the HOF is high so I don't think Davey is worthy. I don't exactly think Reese should be in either. Pokey or Pee Wee?


How many people think Murphy isn't deserving but Concepcion is? Just curious.

Just for reference, I got no problem with either of them going in, but then my hall is probably even a bit larger than the real one and lots of folks think the real one is too big.

It wouldn't bother me if folks like Tony Fernandez got in and the only way Tony is going into the real hall of fame is by buying a ticket.

savafan
11-17-2011, 08:37 PM
Since it is the "Hall of Fame" and not the "Hall of Stats", I would have no problem with Murphy getting in. Growing up in the days of TBS and WGN showing nearly every Braves and Cubs game every year, I got to see a lot of Murphy and Andre Dawson, and I'd agree that they seemed like comparable players. One is in the Hall and one isn't.

dougdirt
11-17-2011, 09:01 PM
How many people think Murphy isn't deserving but Concepcion is? Just curious.

Neither should be in IMO. Nor would they be close if I had a vote.

kaldaniels
11-17-2011, 11:33 PM
Since it is the "Hall of Fame" and not the "Hall of Stats", I would have no problem with Murphy getting in. Growing up in the days of TBS and WGN showing nearly every Braves and Cubs game every year, I got to see a lot of Murphy and Andre Dawson, and I'd agree that they seemed like comparable players. One is in the Hall and one isn't.

Ken Obkerfell (sp) and Ozzie Virgil would be in as well in my book using that system. :D

savafan
11-17-2011, 11:50 PM
Ken Obkerfell (sp) and Ozzie Virgil would be in as well in my book using that system. :D

Ozzie Virgil was basically Jody Davis and Oberkfell an aging Ron Cey.

gilpdawg
11-18-2011, 01:55 AM
If Murphy gets in Minnie Minoso has to be in.

Sent from my SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

cincinnati chili
11-18-2011, 02:41 AM
If we have to debate about a player to get in that has been eligible for awhile, than that player is not HOF worthy. .

I don't like this argument, and I hear it a lot. People have been very, very wrong about many things for a long time. If we discover that someone has been underappreciated, we should admit we were wrong and recognize the person.

But Murphy's not the poster child for this concept. He's been overrated, despite being a good player. He didn't deserve his first MVP (Schmidt and Gary Carter were better) and you could make an argument that Schmidt was more deserving when he won his 2nd.

I don't like the Koufax comparison. Not only did Koufax win 3 Cy Youngs, but he won the pitching-triple-crown in all three of those years. He wasn't just the best pitcher in those particular years, but had some of the best seasons in history during his run.

Someone brought up Belle. Murphy was a better guy, but never dominated like Bad Albert. Just to use one metric, Murphy's best ever OPS+ was 157. Belle topped that four times.

Until there's proof or at least compelling circumstantial evidence that Bagwell was on steroids, there should be no campaigns for Murphy, Santo, Tim Raines, or any other borderline cases.

dfs
11-18-2011, 09:26 AM
Until there's proof or at least compelling circumstantial evidence that Bagwell was on steroids, there should be no campaigns for Murphy, Santo, Tim Raines, or any other borderline cases.

You think the writers are ignoring Bagwell because of steroids?

I just assumed the writers were ignoring Bagwell because he was an Astro.

Yachtzee
11-18-2011, 10:18 AM
How many people think Murphy isn't deserving but Concepcion is? Just curious.

The difference is position. Concepcion at SS was much better than his contemporaries for a longer period than Murphy against his at OF. Pure stats are one thing. You have to look at what position they played and how they stack up in that regard as well.

RedsBaron
11-18-2011, 11:50 AM
If we have to debate about a player to get in that has been eligible for awhile, than that player is not HOF worthy. Murphy needed about 3 more good years at the end.

No matter where you set the line you will wind up with players about whom there will be a debate as to whether or not they belong in the HOF.
If you make Hank Aaron the standard for rightfielders, okay that removes the debate about should Andre Dawson have been inducted or should Dave Parker be inducted, as Dawson and Parker clearly fall short of Aaron's standard.....but then what do you do about Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline and even Frank Robinson? As great as they were, Clemente, Kaline and Robby were all short of being Hank Aaron.
Fine you say, let's make Kaline the standard, but then you will have players who were, say, 95% of Al Kaline and the debate begins as to whether or not those players are Hall worthy.
The standard for a player being HOF worthy cannot be whether or not we have to debate whether or not he belongs. There will always be that debate.

RedsBaron
11-18-2011, 11:56 AM
Until there's proof or at least compelling circumstantial evidence that Bagwell was on steroids, there should be no campaigns for Murphy, Santo, Tim Raines, or any other borderline cases.

Regarding Ron Santo, do you believe that Brooks Robinson should not have been inducted into the HOF?
Robinson had a career batting line of .267/.322/.401 with 268 HR and 1357 RBI, and a career WAR of 69.1.
Santo had a career batting line of .277/.362/.464 with 342 HR and 1331 RBI, and a career WAR of 66.4.
Robinson may have been better but I can sure understand why Santo backers believe Santo is HOF worthy.

George Anderson
11-18-2011, 11:58 AM
If we have to debate about a player to get in that has been eligible for awhile, than that player is not HOF worthy.

I don't agree with this either. Bert Blyleven is the perfect example. He finished his career #3 on the All Time Strike Out list and it took him years to get in. If you have more strikeouts than anyone who played the game besides 2 other people then you deserve induction. The writers dropped the ball on him.