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View Full Version : Prospect #11 Runoff



camisadelgolf
11-17-2011, 07:38 PM
OF Dave Sappelt, or 2B Ron Torreyes?

klw
11-17-2011, 07:50 PM
I voted for Torreyes but I am happy either way.

dougdirt
11-17-2011, 07:55 PM
I am going with Dave Sappelt.

Offensively, I think that Torreyes has a ceiling to be what Sappelt is right now. A guy who doesn't walk much, but has a solid walk rate, who also makes a lot of contact. I think Sappelt has the edge in power, while Torreyes has an edge in contact ability (though not by a ton). Defensively, both can play up the middle. Sappelt has better range between the two at their respective positions, but Sappelt's arm may bring the two closer in overall defense.

texasdave
11-17-2011, 09:08 PM
Early returns indicate a walkoff runoff.

RedsManRick
11-18-2011, 12:41 AM
I am going with Dave Sappelt.

Offensively, I think that Torreyes has a ceiling to be what Sappelt is right now. A guy who doesn't walk much, but has a solid walk rate, who also makes a lot of contact. I think Sappelt has the edge in power, while Torreyes has an edge in contact ability (though not by a ton). Defensively, both can play up the middle. Sappelt has better range between the two at their respective positions, but Sappelt's arm may bring the two closer in overall defense.

My thoughts exactly. Sappelt is basically the guy we hope Torreyes becomes.

klw
11-18-2011, 06:48 AM
My thoughts exactly. Sappelt is basically the guy we hope Torreyes becomes.

I think I joked in the middle of the season the "Torreyes the Spanish tranlation for Sappelt"

HokieRed
11-18-2011, 08:16 AM
Sappelt. If Torreyes can put up the ML numbers I look for from Sappelt, then we will have a very nice replacement for BP at 2b.

lollipopcurve
11-18-2011, 08:39 AM
I like both players quite a bit, but will stay with the more advanced guy who has put up big numbers in AA and AAA. Been voting Sappelt for a while.

Scrap Irony
11-18-2011, 08:41 AM
My thoughts exactly. Sappelt is basically the guy we hope Torreyes becomes.

At second base. While playing Gold Glove type defense.

I've seen no reports from anyone who says Sappelt's defense is anywhere in the same league as Torreyes'. In fact, I've heard multiple scouts rave about Torreyes' glove while the only thing said about Sappelt in CF was that his arm was weak.

I like Sappelt. I think he can be an above average major league player. When right, he reminds me of Bill Madlock.

But Torreyes already has the glove to play a major league second base. (At least he did according to Redsof72 and scouts who saw him play in Spring Training last season and Dayton the year before that.)

Too, Sappelt-- though he had two very good seasons-- did it at an age appropriate level. Torreyes is putting up monster numbers three or four years younger than he should.

My personal list has Sappelt well within the Top Ten. It just has the youth, production, positive scouting reports, and defensive ability of Torreyes higher.

dougdirt
11-18-2011, 09:53 AM
At second base. While playing Gold Glove type defense.

I've seen no reports from anyone who says Sappelt's defense is anywhere in the same league as Torreyes'. In fact, I've heard multiple scouts rave about Torreyes' glove while the only thing said about Sappelt in CF was that his arm was weak.

I like Sappelt. I think he can be an above average major league player. When right, he reminds me of Bill Madlock.

But Torreyes already has the glove to play a major league second base. (At least he did according to Redsof72 and scouts who saw him play in Spring Training last season and Dayton the year before that.)

Too, Sappelt-- though he had two very good seasons-- did it at an age appropriate level. Torreyes is putting up monster numbers three or four years younger than he should.

My personal list has Sappelt well within the Top Ten. It just has the youth, production, positive scouting reports, and defensive ability of Torreyes higher.

I said above that Sappelt's defense is as good. I think Torreyes' defense may be a bit overrated by some of those on this board. Scouts I have talked to like his defense, but they don't love it and certainly don't think its gold glove quality at this point.

As for Torreyes posting his numbers at his age being impressive... it really is. But how much better can they honestly get? There simply isn't much projection there. He isn't going to improve his strikeout rate. His power isn't going to do much.

mace
11-18-2011, 10:02 AM
Well said by Scrap. I, too, like Sappelt. I think he can really hit and chase flies. But I don't know how in the world we can say that he is what we hope Torreyes becomes.

At this point, they have one common stop: Dayton.

Sappelt, Dayton, age 22 (331 PA): 269/322/392/714
Torreyes, Dayton, age 18 (306 PA): 356/398/457/855

In addition, Torreyes, by all accounts, is a better fielder and baserunner, and more fundamentally sound.

On Sappelt's behalf, he didn't really break out until age 23. On Torreyes' behalf, he has another five years before he's 23. And yet, his career minor-league OPS (935) is more than 100 points better than Sappelt's (821).

To say that Torreyes' upside is Sappelt is to sell Torreyes waaaaay short, IMO.

Kc61
11-18-2011, 10:03 AM
How much better can Torreyes get, potentially? A lot better. Because he can get bigger and much stronger.

Keep in mind that Torreyes turned 19 years old on September 2, 2011. That means, even next season, he will play as a 19 year old.

One would think that Torreyes will fill out. He is listed on Baseball Reference as 5'9" and 140. By the time he is 24, say, he is likely to be quite a bit stronger. And hit for more power.

The young man has a remarkable set of stats for his age. Think about it. Age 18 he has already posted an .855 OPS in 306 plate appearances at the Low A-ball level. At age 19 this fellow will likely be in High-A ball and could even be at AA before he is 20.

Very impressive.

Sorry to interrupt the electioneering with some of my own.

BuckeyeRedleg
11-18-2011, 11:04 AM
Dave Sappelt at Dayton (2009....22 years old):

331 PA
3 HR, 25 RBI
.269 AVG.
.322 OBP
.392 SLG%
.714 OPS

Ronald Torreyes at Dayton (2011....18 years old):

306 PA
3 HR, 41 RBI
.356 AVG.
.398 OBP
.457 SLG%
.855 OPS


I'll take Torreyes.

*edit: oops. Didn't read down through thread before posting. Looks like mace already covered this.

The DARK
11-18-2011, 12:07 PM
I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that Torreyes's strikeout rate will not improve. As of right now, he hasn't faced a situation where it's actually been an issue, due to him getting so many hits across all levels. He also flashed more power last year in a more hitter-friendly league, so there's a chance that he could improve there too (and let's not forget that, while it's a long shot, he's young enough that he could still add a few inches).

Personally, I have both of these guys above Corcino and Boxberger. I believe that they've got a much higher potential to succeed than do any of our pitchers, to be honest.

bubbachunk
11-18-2011, 12:56 PM
Here is the problem with Torreyes, some guys just don't fill out and that is the fear. With a different frame he is in the top 5 but he will need a couple more seasons similar to his first two before he will garner such respoect.

dougdirt
11-18-2011, 03:12 PM
I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that Torreyes's strikeout rate will not improve. As of right now, he hasn't faced a situation where it's actually been an issue, due to him getting so many hits across all levels. He also flashed more power last year in a more hitter-friendly league, so there's a chance that he could improve there too (and let's not forget that, while it's a long shot, he's young enough that he could still add a few inches).

Personally, I have both of these guys above Corcino and Boxberger. I believe that they've got a much higher potential to succeed than do any of our pitchers, to be honest.

I don't really think it is that presumptuous at all. Over the last three years, five players have a strikeout rate between 6-8%. Torreyes was at 6.2% last year in Dayton. Unless he becomes the best contact hitter in the history of baseball in a time where the pitching is the best it has ever been, there really isn't room to get better at it (in terms of his rates.... he will have to clearly get much better to maintain that rate of contact as he moves up).

For those who think Torreyes is going to get bigger.... I think you are in for a surprise. He is a fraily framed guy. Sure, he might add a few pounds here or there, but if he tops 160 I would be very, very surprised. He is 5' 7". At 19 or not, there isn't much room for him to put on weight as a pro athlete.

Kc61
11-18-2011, 03:33 PM
I don't really think it is that presumptuous at all. Over the last three years, five players have a strikeout rate between 6-8%. Torreyes was at 6.2% last year in Dayton. Unless he becomes the best contact hitter in the history of baseball in a time where the pitching is the best it has ever been, there really isn't room to get better at it (in terms of his rates.... he will have to clearly get much better to maintain that rate of contact as he moves up).

For those who think Torreyes is going to get bigger.... I think you are in for a surprise. He is a fraily framed guy. Sure, he might add a few pounds here or there, but if he tops 160 I would be very, very surprised. He is 5' 7". At 19 or not, there isn't much room for him to put on weight as a pro athlete.

If he weighs 140, even a gain of 20-25 pounds of mostly muscle will add much power.

Guy is 19, he'll certainly mature physically and add strength. If he takes care of himself, obviously.

BuckeyeRedleg
11-18-2011, 03:42 PM
My senior year of high school I was a division I recruit (pitcher) and weighed 130 lbs. I was 5-9 and had a similar build as Torreyes.

By the end of my sophomore year of college (20) I was 150 lbs. By 23, I was 165. Today, I'm 185 lbs and in pretty decent shape.

I don't buy that a guy can't pack on some lbs. Especially today. 30 years ago, I'd maybe agree with you, but not today.

If Torreyes wants to bulk up a bit, he can and will.

dougdirt
11-18-2011, 04:01 PM
Having stood next to the guy... I just don't see it. Not everyone has the build for it.

Scrap Irony
11-18-2011, 04:24 PM
We researched this earlier, doug. Not everyone gets bigger, true-- one or two in a thousand don't.

Every other male between the ages of 17-21 gets "bigger".

Now, he may be the one or two in a thousand. If I were a betting man, however, I know which way I'd bet...

Scrap Irony
11-18-2011, 04:46 PM
I think Torreyes' defense may be a bit overrated by some of those on this board. Scouts I have talked to like his defense, but they don't love it and certainly don't think its gold glove quality at this point.

Three errors in more than 250 total chances. That's Gold Glove level.

BA thinks Sappelt's D is better as well:


Ben (Miamisburg, OH): Dave Sappelt has quietly and methodically put together an excellent year for the Reds AAA club and with his good contact rates and stellar outfield defense along with the Reds woes with the leadoff spot in their batting order, wouldn't he make more sense to have up in Cincinnati than Yonder Alonso to play in LF?
J.J. Cooper: I'd agree with you if the Reds were using Alonso as a regular left fielder, but for now it seems like Alonso's more of a bench lefty bat rather than anything else, and in that role Alonso fits better than Sappelt because the Reds are looking for a lefty bat. Sappelt's more blocked right now by Chris Heisey, another righty bat with a similar profile but better defense than Sappelt.



Ben (Miamisburg, OH): What are your thoughts on pint sized Reds 2B, 18 year old Ronald Torreyes who has put up a .394/.438/.497 line in 165 at bats in the pitcher friendly midwest league? He is small but fast, is a plus defender and I recently saw him hit a ball out of the stadium in Dayton just going foul to miss the home run so he obviously has some pop. Is he a good comparison to Jose Altuve?
J.J. Cooper: We love the Lil Red Machine around here. He ranked 22nd on our preseason Reds Top 30 despite having a grand total of 24 games in the U.S. coming into this season. As a very short second baseman it's hard not to comp him to Altuve, but there are some differences. Altuve has more power, but Torreyes runs better and is better defensively at second.


In fact, they rate it thusly, in their scouting report:

"Torreyes is a wizard with the glove, capable of making the highlight play ranging into the outfield or behind the bag...At the plate, Torreyes has surprising pop for his size and he profiles as a top of the order hitter."


Another take, this one from the Dayton newspaper and Minorleaguebaseball.com:

The arrival of the youngster at Fifth Third Field, despite the numbers he had put up throughout the summer, was met without fanfare. And in the six games in which he appeared, he batted just .240, collecting two doubles and a triple. However, the impact Torreyes made on observers in Dayton was enormous, not because of his offense, but because of his play at second base. From the first game he played with the Dragons, Torreyes made one spectacular play after another, turning in a series of web gems that would have earned any big leaguer a place on ESPN's plays of the day. Going to his left and right, Torreyes played the kind of defense that had fans and scouts shaking their heads. With one diving catch after another, often throwing out runners from his knees, Torreyes' week in Dayton generated enough discussion that Baseball America ranked him as the number 22 prospect in the Reds organization entering 2011. That is quite an accomplishment for a player whose original signing generated not a whisper, and his experience level in the U.S. consisted of a total of 22 official games.

dougdirt
11-18-2011, 05:09 PM
Here is how I feel about "gold glove" defense.... if scouts aren't unanimous about being at that level, you probably aren't at that level. I have heard from a few scouts that he is good, but not great defensively. You have to love the error rate though. When combined with his good range, it does make him a pretty good defender. All "gold glove" level defense reports I have heard have come second hand from someone who either isn't a scout or someone who has heard it from somewhere else (be it a scout or something they read somewhere).

Scrap Irony
11-18-2011, 05:15 PM
I would argue, doug, that those reports would be better than you and I, two amateur dudes on computers most of the day.

While both of us have seen a bunch of baseball, neither of us gets paid to do this for a living nor are either of us employed by a baseball team to judge said defense. Even if the report is second-hand, in other words, it's gotta be better than our own Eyeball tests-- especially if it's multiple reports, right?

dougdirt
11-18-2011, 05:27 PM
I would argue, doug, that those reports would be better than you and I, two amateur dudes on computers most of the day.

While both of us have seen a bunch of baseball, neither of us gets paid to do this for a living nor are either of us employed by a baseball team to judge said defense. Even if the report is second-hand, in other words, it's gotta be better than our own Eyeball tests-- especially if it's multiple reports, right?

Well, as I noted, the scouts that I have talked to, haven't had him as "gold glove quality". That to me is better than anything I have read on here, sans the BA reports since they do talk to scouts as well, which I hadn't read at the time of my post. That is essentially what I was saying, that the only people I have talked to who say his defense is at that level, aren't scouts and are telling me something second hand.

crazybob60
11-18-2011, 09:24 PM
Could it be that we may have a tie at 11 and then just move on to Prospect #13?

dougdirt
11-18-2011, 09:30 PM
Could it be that we may have a tie at 11 and then just move on to Prospect #13?

We still have about 22 hours left. Someone will come along and swing the vote one way or the other. Hopefully. I would expect the loser here to run away with #12 though.... but you never know.

mace
11-18-2011, 10:37 PM
I wonder, though, if there will be a groundswell for Gregorius in light of his BA ranking.

BuckeyeRedleg
11-19-2011, 09:06 AM
I wonder, though, if there will be a groundswell for Gregorius in light of his BA ranking.

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe next year we can get this thing started a week or two earlier so that we rule out the possibility of being influenced by BA's rankings.