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Matt700wlw
11-17-2011, 07:45 PM
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7248184/syracuse-police-investigating-bernie-fine-molesting-boy-1980s

Redhook
11-17-2011, 07:54 PM
Say it isn't so. After reading the first 3 words of this thread before going into The Tavern, I was really hoping it was going to be something other than this. A firing, bad recruiting, etc. Anything but this. Sadly, my worst thoughts came true.

I really, really hope that Sandusky-gate isn't going to open up a huge can of worms.

savafan
11-17-2011, 07:57 PM
I really, really hope that Sandusky-gate isn't going to open up a huge can of worms.

I'm afraid it already has.

The Operator
11-17-2011, 08:01 PM
You've got to be kidding me.

I just can't fathom what could possibly go wrong in a grown man's brain that would make him want to violate a child. Unreal.

dougdirt
11-17-2011, 08:03 PM
You've got to be kidding me.

I just can't fathom what could possibly go wrong in a grown man's brain that would make him want to violate a child. Unreal.

Depending on who you ask, it isn't that something "went wrong" it is that they were "born with that thing already wrong".

The Operator
11-17-2011, 08:06 PM
Depending on who you ask, it isn't that something "went wrong" it is that they were "born with that thing already wrong".Well, I've heard that said when people wonder why gay people are gay.

I'm perfectly fine with a man liking a man, that's none of my business. But to prey on a child? There has to be a serious disconnect from reality and basic human decency.

dougdirt
11-17-2011, 08:07 PM
Well, I've heard that said when people wonder why gay people are gay.

I'm perfectly fine with a man liking a man, that's none of my business. But to prey on a child? There has to be a serious disconnect from reality and basic human decency.

Agreed completely.

Slyder
11-17-2011, 09:29 PM
Say it isn't so. After reading the first 3 words of this thread before going into The Tavern, I was really hoping it was going to be something other than this. A firing, bad recruiting, etc. Anything but this. Sadly, my worst thoughts came true.

I really, really hope that Sandusky-gate isn't going to open up a huge can of worms.

I think you're going to see more stories like this. Penn State is going to be a cautionary tell and any even remote question is going to be thoroughly investigated. And seeing others coming out is going encourage others to come forward.

jojo
11-17-2011, 09:57 PM
Child molestation is a unique class of vile evil. That said, given the initial stages of this story, it is very possible that the accused is innocent in contrast to the Sandusky situation where there is enough evidence to warrant a trial and surmise his defense will be fighting an uphill battle.

WVRed
11-17-2011, 10:41 PM
http://bloghopenchangery.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/angry-mob-simpsons.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d8/Boeheim2.jpg/220px-Boeheim2.jpg

RedFanAlways1966
11-18-2011, 07:14 AM
I think you're going to see more stories like this. Penn State is going to be a cautionary tell and any even remote question is going to be thoroughly investigated. And seeing others coming out is going encourage others to come forward.

True. And on the other side of the coin I hope we do not have false accusations coming out of the woodwork by people compelled by $$$ and the get my name in the news thing. We all know how that can work... make false accusation, get $10k per interview (Inside Edition, etc), get attention and become "known". And also ruin good people. Becomes my word against yours and the false accuser never gets in trouble.

ps - I am not defending pedophiles.

Sea Ray
11-18-2011, 10:47 AM
I think you're going to see more stories like this. Penn State is going to be a cautionary tell and any even remote question is going to be thoroughly investigated. And seeing others coming out is going encourage others to come forward.

No question. We see a lot more reporting of this stuff than we used to and that's a good thing.

As to whether Boeheim is in trouble, I wouldn't be sleeping well these days if I were him

WVRed
11-18-2011, 11:06 AM
No question. We see a lot more reporting of this stuff than we used to and that's a good thing.

As to whether Boeheim is in trouble, I wouldn't be sleeping well these days if I were him

I guess Boeheim came out last night and said the whole thing is a lie.

Redhook
11-18-2011, 09:56 PM
I saw the two guys on ESPN this morning. They seemed genuine. I honestly can't think of one reason why they would lie about this. They looked miserable and embarrassed talking about it.

And why did Boeheim come out and say it's a lie? He doesn't know that. Why is he saying anything at this point?

Razor Shines
11-19-2011, 12:14 AM
I saw the two guys on ESPN this morning. They seemed genuine. I honestly can't think of one reason why they would lie about this. They looked miserable and embarrassed talking about it.

And why did Boeheim come out and say it's a lie? He doesn't know that. Why is he saying anything at this point?

I don't understand Boeheim commenting either. I've got a bad feeling this one is true also, hope not. If these two are true I'll have a hard time believing there are only two.

Sea Ray
11-19-2011, 09:00 AM
I saw the two guys on ESPN this morning. They seemed genuine. I honestly can't think of one reason why they would lie about this. They looked miserable and embarrassed talking about it.

And why did Boeheim come out and say it's a lie? He doesn't know that. Why is he saying anything at this point?

Did they say why they're coming out with it now?

Redhook
11-19-2011, 10:14 PM
Did they say why they're coming out with it now?

Yes, I heard the older step-brother say something along the lines that they came out because they don't want any more of this type to stuff to happen to other kids. They kept their mouths shut for various reasons, but after Penn St. situation came out they decided to come out too to try and stop this. They fear that a lot more of this stuff is happening. And they're probably right.

Redhook
11-19-2011, 10:16 PM
Additionally, the younger brother came out with this is about 8 years and it sounded like no one believed him at the time, or they didn't have any evidence to prove it.

BCubb2003
11-20-2011, 02:41 PM
Here's some background from The Post-Standard in Syracuse:

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2011/11/bernie_fines_accuser_told_post.html

And why the newspaper didn't publish the story in 2003:

http://blog.syracuse.com/opinion/2011/11/why_we_didnt_publish_fine_stor.html

savafan
11-27-2011, 08:06 PM
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7288286/bernie-fine-fired-syracuse-amidst-molestation-allegations


SYRACUSE, N.Y. -- Syracuse University fired associate head basketball coach Bernie Fine on Sunday in the wake of an investigation of child molestation allegations against him.

"At the direction of Chancellor Cantor, Bernie Fine's employment with Syracuse University has been terminated, effective immediately," Kevin Quinn, the school's senior vice president for public affairs, said in a statement.

The 65-year-old Fine was in his 36th season at his alma mater. He had the longest active streak of consecutive seasons at one school among assistant coaches in Division I.

Fine's firing comes in the wake of new revelations Sunday, including a third accuser. Syracuse had placed Fine on paid administrative leave when accusations first surfaced.

Redhook
11-27-2011, 11:05 PM
And why did Boeheim come out and say it's a lie? He doesn't know that. Why is he saying anything at this point?

Boeheim now apologizes for saying something. I hope he doesn't get dragged into this mess.

http://http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/11/syracuses-boeheim-i-deeply-regret-any-statements-i-made/1?loc=interstitialskip

Slyder
11-28-2011, 12:20 AM
"It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open ones mouth and remove all doubt" **- Mark Twain (attributed)

Nothing EVER good comes out and saying anything in a case such as this. I too hope Boeheim isn't drugged into this.

Boston Red
11-28-2011, 01:49 AM
Too late. Boeheim already dragged himself into it.

fearofpopvol1
11-28-2011, 03:02 AM
Should ESPN bear any culpability?

http://www.9wsyr.com/sports/content/su_sports/story/ESPN-reporter-explains-why-Fine-tape-wasn-t/I0Bn-4AKZU2tyosOS8_57g.cspx

They sat on the tape for 9 years!!

WVRed
11-28-2011, 08:12 AM
Boeheim now apologizes for saying something. I hope he doesn't get dragged into this mess.

http://http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/11/syracuses-boeheim-i-deeply-regret-any-statements-i-made/1?loc=interstitialskip

Sorry, but what Boeheim did is pure damage control. He stood behind Fine when the story first broke. Now that there is legitimate proof, he is doing everything he can to cover his butt.

I don't think this story is over.

Slyder
11-28-2011, 08:16 AM
Sorry, but what Boeheim did is pure damage control. He stood behind Fine when the story first broke. Now that there is legitimate proof, he is doing everything he can to cover his butt.

I don't think this story is over.

If the one story was true that Boeheim would go and check on Fine and the one victim on team trips then he should have had the mindset to not say anything. He put himself out there on a branch too far I believe given the current situation at Penn State.

Scrap Irony
11-28-2011, 02:39 PM
It will prove interesting what happens with recruits as this festers.

Will Boheim be tagged (unfairly, IMO) as culpable to the molestation, or will he (more fairly, IMO) be considered untrustworthy with 18-year-olds?

I suspect his recruiting will suffer a great deal, especially as other coaches use it against him. (And many will. It's amazing what you hear on the recruiting trail.)

bucksfan2
11-29-2011, 08:44 AM
It will prove interesting what happens with recruits as this festers.

Will Boheim be tagged (unfairly, IMO) as culpable to the molestation, or will he (more fairly, IMO) be considered untrustworthy with 18-year-olds?

I suspect his recruiting will suffer a great deal, especially as other coaches use it against him. (And many will. It's amazing what you hear on the recruiting trail.)

I am somewhat amazed that people are treating Boehiem differently from Joe Pa. The same conclusions made about Paterno can be made about Boeheim. People said that Joe Pa was the PSU, you can say the same thing about Boeheim. If the police came to Syracuse they would have come to Boehiem, right? That is what we said about Joe Pa.

I have to think that all the assumptions made about what the head of a program should know have to be the same with Boeheim and Paterno.

Chip R
11-29-2011, 09:47 AM
I am somewhat amazed that people are treating Boehiem differently from Joe Pa. The same conclusions made about Paterno can be made about Boeheim. People said that Joe Pa was the PSU, you can say the same thing about Boeheim. If the police came to Syracuse they would have come to Boehiem, right? That is what we said about Joe Pa.

I have to think that all the assumptions made about what the head of a program should know have to be the same with Boeheim and Paterno.

One big difference is that there has been no indication that someone told Boeheim what was going on with Fine. Also I don't believe any of this took place on the Syracuse campus much less the athletic facilities.

bucksfan2
11-29-2011, 10:11 AM
One big difference is that there has been no indication that someone told Boeheim what was going on with Fine. Also I don't believe any of this took place on the Syracuse campus much less the athletic facilities.

Except an investigation that happened by the Syracuse police.

I guess my point is there were a lot of assumptions made about Paterno that seem apt for Boeheim. Like if it happened within the PSU football program Paterno had to know. The same can be said about Boeheim and the Syracuse basketball program. Were talking about very good friends of both coaches who had investigations into child molestation in the past. If you assume that Paterno knew everything that happened in the PSU football program then you would have to assume that Boeheim knew what went on in the Syracuse basketball program, right?

Razor Shines
11-29-2011, 12:06 PM
"It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open ones mouth and remove all doubt" **- Mark Twain (attributed)

Nothing EVER good comes out and saying anything in a case such as this. I too hope Boeheim isn't drugged into this.

If he knew anything about this and didn't do anything then I hope he is dragged into this as much as JoePa was. I hope he didn't know but if he then I have no sympathy for him.

Slyder
11-29-2011, 12:21 PM
If he knew anything about this and didn't do anything then I hope he is dragged into this as much as JoePa was. I hope he didn't know but if he then I have no sympathy for him.

Thats the side I'm on. I don't think Boeheim knew because even the one victim said that he had never told Boeheim and told the one occassion that Boeheim knocked on the door and the assistant sprang to the door to keep Boeheim from seeing/suspecting anything.

dougdirt
12-02-2011, 02:10 PM
This is a point where I get really confused....

ESPN and The Post Standard both had investigations into this in 2002/2003. The University said three days ago that if the phone conversation had arisen in their investigation, in 2005!, that Fine would have been fired then.

Why did the University not investigate this until 2-3 years AFTER a local paper and a national news source did? Something doesn't add up.

Slyder
12-02-2011, 02:12 PM
This is a point where I get really confused....

ESPN and The Post Standard both had investigations into this in 2002/2003. The University said three days ago that if the phone conversation had arisen in their investigation, in 2005!, that Fine would have been fired then.

Why did the University not investigate this until 2-3 years AFTER a local paper and a national news source did? Something doesn't add up.

Maybe they move at the pace of the NCAA and thats why it took so long? Maybe no one made mention to them in 2003?

dougdirt
12-02-2011, 02:13 PM
Maybe they move at the pace of the NCAA and thats why it took so long? Maybe no one made mention to them in 2003?

You are telling me that two news sources were investigation child molestation charges of a high profile University employee and they didn't approach the University?

KoryMac5
12-02-2011, 05:17 PM
This is a point where I get really confused....

ESPN and The Post Standard both had investigations into this in 2002/2003. The University said three days ago that if the phone conversation had arisen in their investigation, in 2005!, that Fine would have been fired then.

Why did the University not investigate this until 2-3 years AFTER a local paper and a national news source did? Something doesn't add up.

Simple, Davis never reported it to the University. After his initial setbacks with the Syracuse Police, Davis got discouraged and went to the papers instead of going to the University. He felt that Syracuse was going to gloss over it the same way the police did.

traderumor
12-02-2011, 05:50 PM
Thats the side I'm on. I don't think Boeheim knew because even the one victim said that he had never told Boeheim and told the one occassion that Boeheim knocked on the door and the assistant sprang to the door to keep Boeheim from seeing/suspecting anything.From the article starting this thread: "Davis said Syracuse head coach Jim Boeheim saw him in Fine's hotel room on several of those road trips, but Davis said he never told Boeheim about the alleged abuse," and, He said that Boeheim knew he was traveling on the road and sleeping in Fine's room.

"Boeheim saw me with Bernie all the time in the hotel rooms, on road trips," Davis said. "He'd come in, and see me laying in the bed, kind of glance at me like, 'What are you doing here?' But he wouldn't say that. He'd just scowl. And I would look at him like, I'd be nervous. I felt embarrassed 'cause I felt stupid that I'm there. I'm not supposed to be here. I know it, and Boeheim's not stupid."

Boeheim denied seeing Davis in Fine's room.

"He makes the point that he was around and traveling with the team," Boeheim said. "Not that I know of. I never saw him. He is quoted -- (that) I saw him in the room. I have never been in Bernie Fine's room in my life. That is an outright lie."

Reading that article and Boeheim's comments make his retraction later ring very, very hollow. What I am suspecting is that he took a "don't know, don't wanna know" position, meaning he really didn't see or come into any direct evidence, but surely had an uneasy feeling with a young man in his room. I think Boeheim will be very fortunate to keep his job, as well.

KoryMac5
12-02-2011, 05:55 PM
Boheim is on record as saying he never ever goes to an asst coaches room, he always has a team manager knock on the coaches door and bring him to where Boheim is staying at in the team hotel if he needs to talk with that coach. Also from reports I heard Davis has stated that Boheim was unaware that he was travelling with Fine on the road.

Edit: Davis does contend that Boheim saw him in the hotel room on several occasions but he never told the coach about the abuse.

traderumor
12-02-2011, 06:48 PM
Boheim is on record as saying he never ever goes to an asst coaches room, he always has a team manager knock on the coaches door and bring him to where Boheim is staying at in the team hotel if he needs to talk with that coach. Also from reports I heard Davis has stated that Boheim was unaware that he was travelling with Fine on the road.The report above says the exact opposite. After that phone call tape, I'm seeing Davis as a credible witness, just like the Syracuse leadership did. That brings into question Boeheim's credibility on this issue, esp. with his lame retraction now in view. I'm predicting that what I quoted above will end up being true and Boeheim will be coaching legend #2 to fall for not holding a pervert assistant accountable.

KoryMac5
12-02-2011, 09:19 PM
One of the problems I have with this whole entire story is why ESPN can be all over Penn State for not doing what is morally right but when given a tape alleging abuse they sat on it, now they are hiding behind the cloak of we did what was legally right.

traderumor
12-03-2011, 11:05 AM
One of the problems I have with this whole entire story is why ESPN can be all over Penn State for not doing what is morally right but when given a tape alleging abuse they sat on it, now they are hiding behind the cloak of we did what was legally right.ESPN claimed they did not move forward for lack of corroborating evidence. I can appreciate that, since these are very serious charges and they would be exposed to litigation by Fine if these were attention or money seeking allegations. And it is corroborating evidence that keeps the child molesters going. There is shame involved, they are threatened by the molesters if they speak up, and then there is always the initial credibility issues, especially if it is someone who doesn't profile "child molester."

Please don't take this as a defense of ESPN, but I think they have a valid argument. In comparison to JoePa, he had an adult tell him what he saw in 2002 and the sudden firing as an assistant prior to that tells me he had a lot more than ESPN did to take action.

dougdirt
12-04-2011, 06:33 PM
ESPN claimed they did not move forward for lack of corroborating evidence. I can appreciate that, since these are very serious charges and they would be exposed to litigation by Fine if these were attention or money seeking allegations. And it is corroborating evidence that keeps the child molesters going. There is shame involved, they are threatened by the molesters if they speak up, and then there is always the initial credibility issues, especially if it is someone who doesn't profile "child molester."

Please don't take this as a defense of ESPN, but I think they have a valid argument. In comparison to JoePa, he had an adult tell him what he saw in 2002 and the sudden firing as an assistant prior to that tells me he had a lot more than ESPN did to take action.

Agreed here completely.