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Todd Gack
12-11-2011, 09:54 PM
Oh yeah, here it is. :)

Ready.
Set.
Go.

I about barfed during Tom jackson and Trent Dilfer's sermon tonight on Tebow.

Razor Shines
12-11-2011, 10:30 PM
Marion Barber felt the wrath of Tebow.


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Stray
12-11-2011, 10:59 PM
I'm pretty indifferent on him which seems to be the minority. I am really enjoying the story though. The best part of it to me is how polarizing he is, people either love him or they're for some odd reason disgusted by him.

All I know is he took over a team that was playing bad football and they've all of a sudden started to play over their heads. The way things seem to fall in place for him, and the way that he turns into a different player in crunch time is mind boggling.

I think people make too big of a deal out of what a traditional player is. The only people that care about winning pretty are people on the outside, I would bet anything the guys on that team and Bronco fans could care less how ugly their wins are.

Oh and Skip Bayless' love affair for Tebow is hilarious.

dougdirt
12-11-2011, 11:31 PM
I think there are multiple sides on Tebow, but two stand out.

The people who think winning is everything and nothing else matters.

The people who acknowledge Tebow is winning but don't think his style of play will allow him to continue winning over the long haul unless he changes to be more "traditional".

There are sub sets of people who are on one of the Tebow wagons (love him or hate him) for various reasons too, but I think the two listed above are the ones most fall into.

I think Tebow is going to need to continue to be more traditional if he wants to continue to have NFL success.

kaldaniels
12-11-2011, 11:34 PM
Give me an hour or two and I think I could pretty much write what is gonna be said over the next few pages of this thread. I can see it coming. ;)

fearofpopvol1
12-12-2011, 03:44 AM
I don't see how people can hate him. He just seems like a nice guy.

Todd Gack
12-12-2011, 05:29 AM
I don't see how people can hate him. He just seems like a nice guy.

There's the religious aspect too that I think is important. hopefully this doesn't turn into a political/religious thing, but that's most definitely in play here.

RANDY IN INDY
12-12-2011, 08:00 AM
I don't see how people can hate him. He just seems like a nice guy.

Yeah, me too.

medford
12-12-2011, 08:26 AM
I guess I just don't see what the problem is with him being religious? Is he pushing his religion down the throats of his teammates? I don't know, but in either case its not my problem, I've never meet him, doubt I ever will.

I don't begruge a Rabbi, Cleric, Priest, Revrand or any other figure of religious belief their strong ties to their personal faith. I don't habor ill feelings toward them for wearing their faith on their sleeve. I do care what kind of person they are, and by all accounts, Tebow seems to be a nice young man. It seems to me, there are many who project their dislike of organized religion on a man who I've seen do little more than bend at knee and pray on occasion on the football field. I guess he did the anti-abortion add, which I suspect turn some off, but they may be the same people that would cheer a Ray Caruth return to their favorite football team.

I'm neither a Tebow fan, nor a Tebow hater. I hear all the experts tell me how he can't win, won't win, yet time and again he helps to lead a comeback and has his team on track for the playoffs. Perhaps in the long run they're correct, but its certainly an interesting story to watch unfold.

IslandRed
12-12-2011, 10:01 AM
I probably should hate Tebow because he went to a rival school, but I don't. He's a good guy. Definitely has off-the-charts intangibles. And nearly all teams in the NFL play a certain style, and the Broncos are now playing a different style. Different is interesting, interesting is good.

At the same time, I think the hype machine has gone off the deep end. If someone wasn't aware of the whole Tebow debate and didn't have a dog in the fight, I don't know how they could watch yesterday's game and conclude the reason Denver won was because of their great quarterback. The magical journey of lucky breaks and comebacks has been fun to watch, but this business of the defense playing its tails off for 60 minutes so Tebow can finally show up in the last five and be the hero isn't a long-term sustainable thing.

Also, the opponent needs to stop helping co-write the script. When the Bronco offense looks so inept for 50-55 minutes, you can practically see the thought bubbles on the other sideline -- "run the clock, don't give up the big play, we've got this." And they take the air out of the football on offense and loosen up on defense, and suddenly the oxygen-starved Denver offense is gulping fresh air. Tebow hits a few guys on simple pitch-and-catch routes, gets a rhythm, and it's on.

BRM
12-12-2011, 10:22 AM
At the same time, I think the hype machine has gone off the deep end. If someone wasn't aware of the whole Tebow debate and didn't have a dog in the fight, I don't know how they could watch yesterday's game and conclude the reason Denver won was because of their great quarterback. The magical journey of lucky breaks and comebacks has been fun to watch, but this business of the defense playing its tails off for 60 minutes so Tebow can finally show up in the last five and be the hero isn't a long-term sustainable thing.

Also, the opponent needs to stop helping co-write the script. When the Bronco offense looks so inept for 50-55 minutes, you can practically see the thought bubbles on the other sideline -- "run the clock, don't give up the big play, we've got this." And they take the air out of the football on offense and loosen up on defense, and suddenly the oxygen-starved Denver offense is gulping fresh air. Tebow hits a few guys on simple pitch-and-catch routes, gets a rhythm, and it's on.

Marion Barber and Matt Prater were the heroes for Denver yesterday.

Sea Ray
12-12-2011, 10:32 AM
Where's the Tebow thread? Well up until this time it's been in the Bengals discussion which I couldn't figure out. Glad you started one here

IslandRed
12-12-2011, 12:20 PM
Marion Barber and Matt Prater were the heroes for Denver yesterday.

I know, I'm talking about the perception of the thing. Sorry I wasn't more clear about that.

reds1869
12-12-2011, 12:22 PM
I don't get the hate or the love directed at the guy. He is a mediocre football player who seems to be a great human being. I don't care about his spiritual beliefs anymore or less than I care about anyone else's. He just seems to be such a lightning rod for attention and has been since college.

BRM
12-12-2011, 01:12 PM
I know, I'm talking about the perception of the thing. Sorry I wasn't more clear about that.

I was actually in agreement with you. I knew what you were getting at. ;)

Sea Ray
12-12-2011, 03:22 PM
I don't get the hate or the love directed at the guy. He is a mediocre football player who seems to be a great human being. I don't care about his spiritual beliefs anymore or less than I care about anyone else's. He just seems to be such a lightning rod for attention and has been since college.

His heart isn't mediocre; neither is his record of coming back in the 4th qtr. It's really an extraordinary run

bucksfan2
12-12-2011, 03:26 PM
His heart isn't mediocre; neither is his record of coming back in the 4th qtr. It's really an extraordinary run

I tend to think its quite an extraordinary run the defense has been on. That said the Broncos have been feasting on pretty poor teams during this "remarkable" run.

Sea Ray
12-12-2011, 04:21 PM
The defense is a huge part of it as is the O-line for its run blocking but Tebow's 4th qtr stats are laudable

bucksfan2
12-12-2011, 04:34 PM
The defense is a huge part of it as is the O-line for its run blocking but Tebow's 4th qtr stats are laudable

Sure. But you also have to consider that if SD doesn't miss a FG to win the game and if the Bears don't fumble in OT Tebow's not looking so great. I don't think the Bronco's can continue to win the way they have been. I just don't think a team can continue to score 18 points or less and win football games.

dougdirt
12-12-2011, 04:46 PM
There's the religious aspect too that I think is important. hopefully this doesn't turn into a political/religious thing, but that's most definitely in play here.

This.

I simply don't get it. There are religious guys on EVERY team in football. Tons of them. Yet, I do think this is what a small number of people dislike him for, because he believes in God and is outspoken about his beliefs. The part that I don't get is where that has anything to do with him as a football player. On the field, he isn't discussing God or his beliefs with any fans.

MWM
12-12-2011, 04:54 PM
The Broncos won 7 in a row 2 years ago with a terrible defense and Kyle Orton as QB. Vince Young won a bunch of games his rookie and the next year and people were saying the same thing about him knowing how to win. Orton was released and Young isn't far behind.

They can win with Tebow. The guy is smart, a good athlete, and seems incredibly determined. He may turn into a good NFL QB. But if they win with Tebow, it will be because he did just that. It won't be like they're winning now. Like I said in the other thread, he's like the closer who comes in with 2 run leads, loads the bases, walks in a run, then gets a line drive double play to end the inning. We hear from some how they get the job done based on their save totals. We've seen this closer in Cincy. Eventually, the luck goes the other way, and the result is ugly.

Their current brand of football is not sustainable and I guarantee you Elway and Fox know it. I wouldn't at all be surprised if they draft a QB next year. Tebow's easy to root for. I got tired of the hype in college and it's even worse now (if that's possible), but he's not done anything to warrant sports hate.

wolfboy
12-12-2011, 05:03 PM
This.

I simply don't get it. There are religious guys on EVERY team in football. Tons of them. Yet, I do think this is what a small number of people dislike him for, because he believes in God and is outspoken about his beliefs. The part that I don't get is where that has anything to do with him as a football player. On the field, he isn't discussing God or his beliefs with any fans.

I don't really care one way or another about the religion thing, but this is just freaking funny:

http://amog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/tebowing.jpg

It's melodrama at its finest.

dougdirt
12-12-2011, 05:08 PM
It's melodrama at its finest.

Why is it funny? Because people mock it? Or simply because he is praying?

texasdave
12-12-2011, 05:17 PM
I don't really care one way or another about the religion thing, but this is just freaking funny:


It's melodrama at its finest.

Yes. What is so funny?

wolfboy
12-12-2011, 05:41 PM
I don't find the fact that he's praying funny at all. The melodramatic "pose" in which he does it is pretty funny though.

FWIW, Drew Brees is a pretty outspoken Christian, and you don't see people poking fun at him. I never found anything funny about Jon Kitna when he was playing for the Bengals (bone headed football plays excepted).

I don't hate Tebow a bit, so maybe you're mistaking where I'm coming from for what you've seen out of others. However, I sincerely get a chuckle out of how melodramatic the guy is. Sorry, but I'm just not going to feel bad about that. Why should I when it has 0% of anything to do with his religious beliefs.

Redsfaithful
12-12-2011, 05:52 PM
Don't think this is sustainable at all, and actually think there's a good chance Denver loses by 35 this weekend, but long term it wouldn't surprise me at all if Tebow improves enough to actually be good. A smart coach that wants him would do him some good.

dougdirt
12-12-2011, 06:03 PM
Don't think this is sustainable at all, and actually think there's a good chance Denver loses by 35 this weekend, but long term it wouldn't surprise me at all if Tebow improves enough to actually be good. A smart coach that wants him would do him some good.

I agree. I don't think he is going to ever be an elite level quarterback, but he has a strong enough arm to go along with his ability to keep plays alive and the ability to flat out run the ball when he needs to, that someone should be able to do something very good with him if he is put in the right position with the right players around him. I think he still needs to shorten up his throwing motion, because it does give defenders that extra half of a second to get to where they need to be, but as far as the talent needed to succeed in the NFL, it is there with the right work.

paintmered
12-12-2011, 07:54 PM
Tim Tebow - "All He Does Is Win" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMK9FKMG3Nc&feature=player_embedded)

Brutus
12-12-2011, 08:43 PM
I'm pretty indifferent on him which seems to be the minority. I am really enjoying the story though. The best part of it to me is how polarizing he is, people either love him or they're for some odd reason disgusted by him.

All I know is he took over a team that was playing bad football and they've all of a sudden started to play over their heads. The way things seem to fall in place for him, and the way that he turns into a different player in crunch time is mind boggling.

I think people make too big of a deal out of what a traditional player is. The only people that care about winning pretty are people on the outside, I would bet anything the guys on that team and Bronco fans could care less how ugly their wins are.

Oh and Skip Bayless' love affair for Tebow is hilarious.

I'm not disgusted by him, but I'm disgusted by the way the media fawns over a mediocre QB. He's not terrible, but he's not someone that deserves the type of attention he's getting. He's a good kid, hard worker and a good athlete, but the time devoted to covering him is beyond ridiculous.

Brutus
12-12-2011, 08:46 PM
I don't find the fact that he's praying funny at all. The melodramatic "pose" in which he does it is pretty funny though.

FWIW, Drew Brees is a pretty outspoken Christian, and you don't see people poking fun at him. I never found anything funny about Jon Kitna when he was playing for the Bengals (bone headed football plays excepted).

I don't hate Tebow a bit, so maybe you're mistaking where I'm coming from for what you've seen out of others. However, I sincerely get a chuckle out of how melodramatic the guy is. Sorry, but I'm just not going to feel bad about that. Why should I when it has 0% of anything to do with his religious beliefs.

What's melodramatic about it? It's not a pose... people often get down on a knee or both knees when they pray.

Todd Gack
12-12-2011, 09:09 PM
The defense is a huge part of it as is the O-line for its run blocking but Tebow's 4th qtr stats are laudable

Tebow is the guy who lights the house on fire only to go back in and save the kids and he's proclaimed the hero.

Sea Ray
12-12-2011, 10:08 PM
Tebow is the guy who lights the house on fire only to go back in and save the kids and he's proclaimed the hero.

You do have a point there...

757690
12-12-2011, 11:07 PM
Greatest Halloween Costume Ever...

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/web03/2009/11/4/10/tim-tebow-halloween-costume-17119-1257346924-8.jpg

757690
12-12-2011, 11:20 PM
In all seriousness, I actually thought Tebow should have been starting all year for the Broncos. Not that he's that good, but you know Orton is terrible, and Tebow couldn't be any worse, and had a good chance to be better.

As for his 4th quarter performances, I think a lot as to do with how well his skill set matches up with a prevent defense. He can't give you the long ball, the big play, and that is all the prevent stops, while making it easy to make quick drop offs, and QB runs, Tebow's strength. I think in the 4th quarter, teams should run a normal defense, as he's not going to hurt you with a big play anyway.

Jefferson24
12-13-2011, 12:51 AM
In all seriousness, I actually thought Tebow should have been starting all year for the Broncos. Not that he's that good, but you know Orton is terrible, and Tebow couldn't be any worse, and had a good chance to be better.



You said it. Until he proves he can not do it keep him in there. And by can not do it I mean "1 and 4".

Jefferson24
12-13-2011, 12:53 AM
Greatest Halloween Costume Ever...

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/web03/2009/11/4/10/tim-tebow-halloween-costume-17119-1257346924-8.jpg

Not amused. Why don't you listen to his words, you could learn a lot.

Slyder
12-13-2011, 12:56 AM
I don't see how people can hate him. He just seems like a nice guy.

He's a Donkey I mean Bronco isn't that enough for some rivals?

In all seriousness though, I think that many that hate him are just tired of him being shoveled down their throats by ESPN. ESPN has been riding Tebow ever since he got to Florida and he's been on ESPN almost every week since, people got tired of him and it hasn't changed since he left Florida. It's gone from being "can he play in the NFL" to "can he be stopped" every week someone talks about him and I just think theres those that "hate" him because of it.

Redsfaithful
12-13-2011, 01:09 AM
I'm not disgusted by him, but I'm disgusted by the way the media fawns over a mediocre QB. He's not terrible, but he's not someone that deserves the type of attention he's getting. He's a good kid, hard worker and a good athlete, but the time devoted to covering him is beyond ridiculous.

Give me a break. It's a story literally straight out of a movie. You couldn't get away from Major League/John Elway comparisons on Twitter Sunday, and it's dead on. Expecting the media to ignore a story like Tebow is crazy.

Now, I don't watch ESPN so I'm sure they are beating it to death and that's irritating, but that's why I don't watch that network unless it's live sports.

Redsfaithful
12-13-2011, 01:11 AM
Not amused. Why don't you listen to his words, you could learn a lot.

Also don't understand this take. He's not Jesus Christ come back, calm down.

Brutus
12-13-2011, 01:19 AM
Give me a break. It's a story literally straight out of a movie. You couldn't get away from Major League/John Elway comparisons on Twitter Sunday, and it's dead on. Expecting the media to ignore a story like Tebow is crazy.

Now, I don't watch ESPN so I'm sure they are beating it to death and that's irritating, but that's why I don't watch that network unless it's live sports.

How is it dead on? The guy is completing 49% of his passes. He's not that good. When I watch a movie, I expect the hero to be a good player. That's not the case here.

It's only out of a movie because people are making it into one. I got news for you... if this is straight out of a movie, we're going to see a sequel soon and it's going to be such a horrible flop you're going to realize the entire movie franchise wasn't that good to begin with.

757690
12-13-2011, 01:41 AM
Give me a break. It's a story literally straight out of a movie. You couldn't get away from Major League/John Elway comparisons on Twitter Sunday, and it's dead on. Expecting the media to ignore a story like Tebow is crazy.

Now, I don't watch ESPN so I'm sure they are beating it to death and that's irritating, but that's why I don't watch that network unless it's live sports.

I agree this story deserves coverage.

My biggest issue is that he was getting the same bow down treatment from ESPN way back to his years as a Gator, when it wasn't even close ro being justified. Not that I'm bitter he beat both Ohio State and University of Cincinnati in BSC games. ;)

bucksfan2
12-13-2011, 08:53 AM
In all seriousness, I actually thought Tebow should have been starting all year for the Broncos. Not that he's that good, but you know Orton is terrible, and Tebow couldn't be any worse, and had a good chance to be better.

As for his 4th quarter performances, I think a lot as to do with how well his skill set matches up with a prevent defense. He can't give you the long ball, the big play, and that is all the prevent stops, while making it easy to make quick drop offs, and QB runs, Tebow's strength. I think in the 4th quarter, teams should run a normal defense, as he's not going to hurt you with a big play anyway.

Didn't Orton lead the Bronco's to a 6-2 start a few years ago?

I don't think you can continue to win games scoring 13-17 points. I think Fox and Elway no this but they really have no other options this season. I think Fox is a heck of a coach in order to completely change his offensive scheme mid season.

MWM
12-13-2011, 09:46 AM
Tebow "hate" is a straw man. I don't see a lot of "hate" out there for him. Like others have said, it's more fatigue and countering the opinion of some that he's so amazing. People disagree with much of the praise that's heaped upon him constantly that some confuse that as hate. I don't have any hate for him, but I certainly don't think he's anywhere close to as good as he's made out to be....in college or the pros.

wolfboy
12-13-2011, 10:18 AM
Tebow "hate" is a straw man. I don't see a lot of "hate" out there for him. Like others have said, it's more fatigue and countering the opinion of some that he's so amazing. People disagree with much of the praise that's heaped upon him constantly that some confuse that as hate. I don't have any hate for him, but I certainly don't think he's anywhere close to as good as he's made out to be....in college or the pros.

Exactly.

medford
12-13-2011, 01:29 PM
I've seen (actually should say heard as I listen to more ESPN radio than watch sportscenter) more anti-Tebow comments on ESPN than pro-tebow comments on ESPN during his NFL stint prior to his current stretch.

Trent Dilfer and Colin Cowherd railed on the guy's NFL skills pretty hard earlier this season. Will they be right? I don't know, but its not all a love fest in Bristol over Tebow's QB skills.

Chip R
12-13-2011, 02:20 PM
Trent Dilfer and Colin Cowherd railed on the guy's NFL skills pretty hard earlier this season. Will they be right? I don't know, but its not all a love fest in Bristol over Tebow's QB skills.

Doesn't matter if they love him or hate him. If they say they love him, they get a bunch of feedback from people who don't love him and vice versa.

Roy Tucker
12-13-2011, 02:41 PM
This WSJ essay on "God's Quarterback" brings up some interesting points...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203413304577084770973155282.html

Redsfaithful
12-13-2011, 03:02 PM
In postgame interviews, the young quarterback often starts by saying, "First, I'd like to thank my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" and ends with "God bless." He stresses that football is just a game and that God doesn't care who wins or loses.

He seems really self aware. Unique person, I don't see how anyone can root against him. It reminds me of Brett Favre, the coverage, especially late in his career, was annoying, but football was always more fun when Favre was good. Tebow is a great story and he's made this season way more fun and interesting.

Redsfaithful
12-13-2011, 03:20 PM
How is it dead on? The guy is completing 49% of his passes. He's not that good.

Cherrypicking stats and ignoring everything he does do well. The guy has an 11/2 TD-INT ratio, a respectable 83.9 QB rating ... and he's run for over 500 yards at 5.5 yards per carry and three more TDs. Apart from that completion percentage his stats are fine. This is with receivers that are mostly mediocre, as anyone could see the first three quarters on Sunday where they dropped plenty of balls.

In sports when it's not the Reds, Bengals, or Buckeyes I generally root for what would be the more interesting story, so it's really weird to me that people have this hatred for Tebow. If he were more judgmental or something I'd understand it but I've literally never heard the guy say anything I'd consider out of bounds. Even his anti-abortion ad was as tasteful as could be, I mean come on.

Roy Tucker
12-13-2011, 03:48 PM
Yeah. Maybe it's the cynical bastard in me, but I view people who wear their religion on their sleeve with a certain jaundiced skunk eye.

But I've met enough people (and have a very good friend) who has totally integrated their religion into their lifestyle and its completely natural and without guile and even a cynic like me respects and admires that in them.

Tebow strikes me as that kind of person and I say more power to him.

Plus he is an absolute gonzo warrior on the field and I always like that too.

Sea Ray
12-13-2011, 03:54 PM
Lots of guys make religious gestures after scoring or getting a base hit (Brandon Phillips) so I don't see what religion has to do with one's opinion of Tebow. He's a born again Christian just like our own Andy Dalton. So what?

dougdirt
12-13-2011, 06:27 PM
Lots of guys make religious gestures after scoring or getting a base hit (Brandon Phillips) so I don't see what religion has to do with one's opinion of Tebow. He's a born again Christian just like our own Andy Dalton. So what?

Some people frown upon those who are religious.

MWM
12-13-2011, 07:43 PM
Some people frown upon those who are religious.

That's a classic straw man and not really true, and is a baiting comment meant for the other forum.

Jefferson24
12-13-2011, 07:46 PM
I'm a Broncos fan, have been since the mid 80's. I am becoming a Tebow fan as well. Seems like he is a very hard worker and it is nice to see that effort translate into success on the field. If he starts playing the first 3 quarters like he does the 4th quarter he will be one of the best quarterbacks in the league.

Hillsdale87
12-13-2011, 08:05 PM
Cherrypicking stats and ignoring everything he does do well. The guy has an 11/2 TD-INT ratio, a respectable 83.9 QB rating ... and he's run for over 500 yards at 5.5 yards per carry and three more TDs. Apart from that completion percentage his stats are fine. This is with receivers that are mostly mediocre, as anyone could see the first three quarters on Sunday where they dropped plenty of balls.

Plus, while he obviously needs work on his accuracy, it's hard to get in a rhythm when you throw the ball 15 times a game. And when you throw so infrequently, those drops really kill the completion percentage. Not saying it would be 65%, but it would be a lot better with more polished receivers. Imagine if Brandon Lloyd was still there. Also, I think Tebow could put up more points if the Broncos called a more aggressive game plan. But the defense is holding teams to 13 points, so Fox is calling a very conservative game. Against the Vikings, when the D was horrible, The Broncos put up 28 points on offense, all of it in the 2nd half after Fox called a very vanilla first half.

Razor Shines
12-13-2011, 08:21 PM
@mancowmuller Tebow.The last time a Bronco got this much publicity it was going 12 MPH on the LA freeway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dougdirt
12-13-2011, 08:58 PM
That's a classic straw man and not really true, and is a baiting comment meant for the other forum.

That is certainly your opinion. I happen to disagree as I have seen it first hand.

MWM
12-13-2011, 09:05 PM
That is certainly your opinion. I happen to disagree as I have seen it first hand.

But it's not near as much as atheists or agnostics are frowned upon by religious people. And yes, I've seen THAT first hand.

dougdirt
12-13-2011, 09:08 PM
But it's not near as much as atheists or agnostics are frowned upon by religious people. And yes, I've seen THAT first hand.

I never said anything to suggest otherwise. That doesn't have much to do with Tim Tebow though, does it? Where as the first statement does.

Brutus
12-13-2011, 09:53 PM
Cherrypicking stats and ignoring everything he does do well. The guy has an 11/2 TD-INT ratio, a respectable 83.9 QB rating ... and he's run for over 500 yards at 5.5 yards per carry and three more TDs. Apart from that completion percentage his stats are fine. This is with receivers that are mostly mediocre, as anyone could see the first three quarters on Sunday where they dropped plenty of balls.

In sports when it's not the Reds, Bengals, or Buckeyes I generally root for what would be the more interesting story, so it's really weird to me that people have this hatred for Tebow. If he were more judgmental or something I'd understand it but I've literally never heard the guy say anything I'd consider out of bounds. Even his anti-abortion ad was as tasteful as could be, I mean come on.

49% completion percentage is not cherry picking. That's not good, no matter how you slice it.

fearofpopvol1
12-14-2011, 01:54 AM
Cherrypicking stats and ignoring everything he does do well. The guy has an 11/2 TD-INT ratio, a respectable 83.9 QB rating ... and he's run for over 500 yards at 5.5 yards per carry and three more TDs. Apart from that completion percentage his stats are fine. This is with receivers that are mostly mediocre, as anyone could see the first three quarters on Sunday where they dropped plenty of balls.

In sports when it's not the Reds, Bengals, or Buckeyes I generally root for what would be the more interesting story, so it's really weird to me that people have this hatred for Tebow. If he were more judgmental or something I'd understand it but I've literally never heard the guy say anything I'd consider out of bounds. Even his anti-abortion ad was as tasteful as could be, I mean come on.

I agree. He's a classy guy who isn't trying to impose his views on anyone.

For what it's worth, Tebow's completion % is better than better than Mike Vick's rookie season was (thus far).

Sea Ray
12-14-2011, 09:04 AM
Some people frown upon those who are religious.

Yeah, I know that religion makes a lot of people uncomfortable but why does Tebow catch so much flack whereas Brandon Phillips or Andy Dalton do not?

757690
12-14-2011, 01:34 PM
Yeah, I know that religion makes a lot of people uncomfortable but why does Tebow catch so much flack whereas Brandon Phillips or Andy Dalton do not?

I can't think of another professional athlete who appeared in a pro-life ad, or any other political advocacy ad of such a controversial subject as abortion.

Tebow doesn't do that Super Bowl ad, and his religious views aren't talked about that much.

I also don't know any athlete with such an attention drawing method of demonstrating his faith, as Tebow's kneel down pose. For me, it's the same thing as those dances defenders do when the get a sack.

I have no problem with Tebow's faith, I think it's great, in fact. However, I can see how people have a problem with how he expresses it.

medford
12-14-2011, 02:13 PM
Is the kneel down thing really any worse than the countless number of athletes who pound their chest then point upwards to the sky in a "thank you God" manner? Is it any worse than the players of te 80s (Mark Bavaro?) who would get on a knee and make the sign of the cross? I don't think so, I think many times people see what they want to see and read more into a gesture than there is meant to be read into.

I saw countless athletes/artists in pro-Obama adds for the last presidential election.

Chad Johnson and Terrelle Owens were mostly celebrated for their end zone creativity. I fail to see how a player taking a knee and saying a quiet prayer offends anyone other than those looking for an excuse to be offended.

757690
12-14-2011, 02:49 PM
Is the kneel down thing really any worse than the countless number of athletes who pound their chest then point upwards to the sky in a "thank you God" manner? Is it any worse than the players of te 80s (Mark Bavaro?) who would get on a knee and make the sign of the cross? I don't think so, I think many times people see what they want to see and read more into a gesture than there is meant to be read into.

I saw countless athletes/artists in pro-Obama adds for the last presidential election.

Chad Johnson and Terrelle Owens were mostly celebrated for their end zone creativity. I fail to see how a player taking a knee and saying a quiet prayer offends anyone other than those looking for an excuse to be offended.

I think his kneel down is far more attention grabbing than pounding your chest and saying "Thank You God." Like I said, it's gives the impression that you are trying to single yourself out and draw attention to yourself, much like the celebration dances you mentioned. It has an appearance of self-importance. (I have no idea what Mark Bavaro did, so I can't comment.)

I don't know any active pro-athlete who appeared in an Obama ad, but I could have missed it if they did. But even that is nothing like appearing in an ad about abortion, especially one that appeared during the Super Bowl.

And I don't think too many people are offended by what Tebow does, just annoyed.

dougdirt
12-14-2011, 08:25 PM
Yeah, I know that religion makes a lot of people uncomfortable but why does Tebow catch so much flack whereas Brandon Phillips or Andy Dalton do not?

Tebow is more outspoken than most other Christian-athletes are. Or maybe it seems that way since there is always a mic in his face. Either way, that is what I think the difference is.

WVRed
12-14-2011, 08:59 PM
Why I can't stand Tebow has nothing to do with religion.

It's the incessant hype machine that has been shoved down everyones throats by the worldwide leader.

Same reason I can't stand Brett Favre either. I get it, they're great, but I don't need to be reminded of it 24 hours a day.

ervinsm84
12-14-2011, 09:52 PM
Thread title needs changed to TEBOW THE GOAT or THE MILE HIGH MESSIAH

Only question is, Will Tebow make the pro bowl?

butnaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah



QBs in the Super Bowl dont play in the pro bowl this year



Sooo much WIM hes the GOAT

http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/11/11652/11932181.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ct29wuEfUQQ

http://i.imgur.com/LqnTb.jpg

Teach Me How To Tebow - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeHEcxSRIig)

http://www.miscupload.com/upload/452457071929141623517416.gif

http://losthatsportsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/skipbayless.jpg

http://kentuckysportsradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/tebow_virgin2.jpg

http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Tebow_is_Risen.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/2Chsz.png

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DUymUOl7rgc

http://www.omdoubleg.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/tim-tebow-god-jesus2a.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d-qodBTlMtA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qNC8xRo9vXY

http://i.imgur.com/EZl8y.png

Tim Tebow - "All He Does Is Win" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMK9FKMG3Nc)

http://www.voodoobrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/tebow-jesus.jpg

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/387088_2768525571168_1198822150_33186337_183951055 5_n.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/EZMEy.png

http://i.imgur.com/oYXXd.png

http://i.imgur.com/P4Heo.png

http://i.imgur.com/biRZh.png

http://i.imgur.com/OZHSu.png

TEBOW TIME Song + Highlights - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc8bp4jsgKI&feature=player_embedded)

http://cdn2.tauntr.com/sites/default/files/UF_JesusScandal.jpg


http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/1710/sworkfinal.png

http://legacy-cdn.smosh.com/smosh-pit/052011/haters-brother-mario.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=buuQko27wHk#!

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kKrOCy0tQYk/Tt2DRdKZSFI/AAAAAAAAAl0/PLUII0XoOLQ/s300/tim-tebow-armband.gif


Tebow 95 yard game winning drive against jets epic - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KR638W3tRc&feature=player_embedded)

http://gif.mocksession.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/TEBOW-ENRAPTURED.gif

http://t.qkme.me/35bdoj.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/thereverend316/TebowHatersGonnaHate.jpg

Newport Red
12-14-2011, 10:26 PM
Why I can't stand Tebow has nothing to do with religion.

It's the incessant hype machine that has been shoved down everyones throats by the worldwide leader.

Same reason I can't stand Brett Favre either. I get it, they're great, but I don't need to be reminded of it 24 hours a day.

Sounds like it has nothing to do with Tebow either.

Tebow love/hate must be making ESPN alot of money.

Todd Gack
12-15-2011, 05:33 AM
49% completion percentage is not cherry picking. That's not good, no matter how you slice it.

Don't forget that the NFL is a league where completion % numbers are very high these days because of the rules. 49% is an abomination. . .and that's with very, very, very vanilla play calling.

There's a reason the coaches don't let him pass the ball much until they HAVE to.

Sea Ray
12-15-2011, 10:26 AM
Tebow is more outspoken than most other Christian-athletes are. Or maybe it seems that way since there is always a mic in his face. Either way, that is what I think the difference is.

I rarely hear him talk about religion in pre and post game interviews. He did do the anti-abortion commercial but I haven't noticed him continually hammering the subject

Sea Ray
12-15-2011, 10:28 AM
Kinda shows how worthless those win probability charts are

wolfboy
12-16-2011, 09:17 AM
Add this to the "World Has Lost Its Mind" file:

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/7357978/high-school-athletes-suspended-tebowing

Sea Ray
12-16-2011, 09:49 AM
Add this to the "World Has Lost Its Mind" file:

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/7357978/high-school-athletes-suspended-tebowing

I think the suspension was more for the fact that they did this for three days than the actual kneeling. After awhile if they tell you enough is enough, you have to cooperate

Ohayou
12-16-2011, 06:04 PM
Aaaaah, Tebow-huh! Good God y'all! First Take really needs to find something else to talk about. This is just ridiculous.

dougdirt
12-16-2011, 07:59 PM
I think the suspension was more for the fact that they did this for three days than the actual kneeling. After awhile if they tell you enough is enough, you have to cooperate

Here is the thing though.... they weren't doing anything wrong. They were harming absolutely no one. Kneeling down does not warrant a suspension, at all.

blumj
12-16-2011, 09:52 PM
Here is the thing though.... they weren't doing anything wrong. They were harming absolutely no one. Kneeling down does not warrant a suspension, at all.
It does if they were told to stop and kept doing it, and, if they were doing it where there were crowds of students all trying to get to their next class at the same time, that could certainly be dangerous.

Slyder
12-16-2011, 10:17 PM
It does if they were told to stop and kept doing it, and, if they were doing it where there were crowds of students all trying to get to their next class at the same time, that could certainly be dangerous.

How many players across the nation kneel, point up, or do the fist to the chest and then point up, or any one of a hundred other celebrations? I saw it at least 10 times this year in games I reffed suspending them is retarded. This is typical bureaucratic bs that has infiltrated the school system for the past 40 years. This is typical taking a nuclear bomb to kill a fly.

According to the student on first take the school never asked them to stop.

dougdirt
12-16-2011, 10:17 PM
It does if they were told to stop and kept doing it, and, if they were doing it where there were crowds of students all trying to get to their next class at the same time, that could certainly be dangerous.

Sounds like a power trip by some teachers to me. What if the students just wanted to walk really slow? That could "be dangerous" too. If the other students were blind kids who ran around everywhere they went. When I was in high school, all of 9 years ago, I had to walk around and walk past plenty of people who were "in my way" on the way to class. What if those kids were "tebowing" but actually praying instead of just mocking a football player? Well, then these teachers and school would be in a whole bunch of trouble for what they did.

And simply because someone in authority tells you to stop, doesn't mean it is right for them to do so or that you are doing something improper.

757690
12-17-2011, 12:14 AM
Sounds like a power trip by some teachers to me. What if the students just wanted to walk really slow? That could "be dangerous" too. If the other students were blind kids who ran around everywhere they went. When I was in high school, all of 9 years ago, I had to walk around and walk past plenty of people who were "in my way" on the way to class. What if those kids were "tebowing" but actually praying instead of just mocking a football player? Well, then these teachers and school would be in a whole bunch of trouble for what they did.

And simply because someone in authority tells you to stop, doesn't mean it is right for them to do so or that you are doing something improper.

It seems like a silly suspension, but I've seen sillier. Suspending them actually makes a bigger deal than what the administrators were trying to avoid.

However, in a school, the teachers have all the power, and if they tell you to stop doing something, for whatever reason, you have to stop or accept the consequences. Schools are dictatorships. Students have almost no rights. You may be in the right, but you still have to do the time.

dougdirt
12-17-2011, 12:44 AM
It seems like a silly suspension, but I've seen sillier. Suspending them actually makes a bigger deal than what the administrators were trying to avoid.

However, in a school, the teachers have all the power, and if they tell you to stop doing something, for whatever reason, you have to stop or accept the consequences. Schools are dictatorships. Students have almost no rights. You may be in the right, but you still have to do the time.
Students don't have rights if their parents don't stand up for their rights. There is no way that my parents would have allowed that suspension to hold up.

JayStubbs
12-17-2011, 09:29 PM
Students don't have rights if their parents don't stand up for their rights. There is no way that my parents would have allowed that suspension to hold up.

As someone who works in a public school, I can tell you that your parents have every right to appeal, but it is doubtful anything would have changed. Suspensions usually are only over turned when civil rights, or the ability to graduate are at stake.

Todd Gack
12-18-2011, 07:24 PM
The Broncos win as a Tebow, lose as a team.

blumj
12-18-2011, 08:32 PM
I don't get it. All the other QBs at least almost come back against the Pats nonexistent pass defense, and he throws balls at the feet of open receivers and loses fumbles and takes a 30 yard sack, and still gets the Jeter treatment from the announcers after the game.

Razor Shines
12-18-2011, 09:19 PM
:laugh:http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/scu6krSaD3HqRie5doU1Mw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD00MTc7cT04NTt3PTUxMg--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2011-12-19T012208Z_1923057069_GM1E7CJ0PVC01_RTRMADP_3_NFL. JPG

I know I'm immature but......:laugh::laugh:

Tony Cloninger
12-19-2011, 11:14 AM
The reason they will not shut up about him is if they do not talk well of him....Skip Bayless will go on ESPN First take, or should I call it the 2 Hour Skip Bayless Ego Trip....and will blast you on his pulpit.

Can someone explain why this POS is allowed carte blanche to talk about Tebow and the Cowboys all day?

Sea Ray
12-19-2011, 02:53 PM
Students don't have rights if their parents don't stand up for their rights. There is no way that my parents would have allowed that suspension to hold up.

I got the idea that it was a distraction for the other students. If that's the case then the school has a right to police it. Further, how can a student go to class if he's in the hall praying?

MWM
12-24-2011, 04:12 PM
Yep, that regression to the mean for Tebow is going to be oogly. In a way, this is a christmas present for John Elway and John Fox. This will allow them to seek QB help without a full revolt on their hands.

Sea Ray
12-25-2011, 12:43 AM
4 INTs is ugly in anyone's book

Slyder
12-25-2011, 12:58 AM
So now for the Raiders to make the playoffs we need the chiefs to beat the Tebows? I don't think its possible to make a Raider fan sicker than to know we have to rely on the CHIEFS to beat ANYONE to help us even the Donks!

VR
12-25-2011, 01:18 AM
Tough game for the kid. One of the announcers made the point that the Denver wide outs are the least talented bunch in the NFL. I wonder how much a few quality vets would help that offense? Came into the game w/ 2nd highest % of passes dropped, I'd guess the several today won't help. Not pretty.

RBA
12-25-2011, 01:35 AM
So now for the Raiders to make the playoffs we need the chiefs to beat the Tebows? I don't think its possible to make a Raider fan sicker than to know we have to rely on the CHIEFS to beat ANYONE to help us even the Donks!

Not exactly...


OAKLAND RAIDERS
Oakland clinches AFC West division with:
1) OAK win + DEN loss

Oakland clinches playoff spot with:
1) OAK win + CIN loss + TEN loss or tie OR
2) OAK win + CIN loss + NYJ win

IslandRed
12-25-2011, 11:57 AM
Yep, that regression to the mean for Tebow is going to be oogly. In a way, this is a christmas present for John Elway and John Fox. This will allow them to seek QB help without a full revolt on their hands.

Not so fast... if they win next week and make the playoffs, it's still going to be hard to pull that plug. But yeah, that was the Lions game all over again.

Redsfaithful
12-26-2011, 11:46 AM
Kyle Orton vs. the Tim Tebow's is going to be fun. Have to root against Tebow this time, Bengals come first.

bucksfan2
12-27-2011, 09:10 AM
Tough game for the kid. One of the announcers made the point that the Denver wide outs are the least talented bunch in the NFL. I wonder how much a few quality vets would help that offense? Came into the game w/ 2nd highest % of passes dropped, I'd guess the several today won't help. Not pretty.

Since Tim Tebow has pretty much been forced down the throats of us non NFL Sunday Ticket fans I have watched many of their games. I am nothing but a fan but I like Denver's receiving corps. I think Eric Decker will be a very solid to good NFL WR. Thomas was a former first round pick who hasn't really done much this year until recently.

The Tebow "magic" has been largely done against prevent defense later on in the game. If Skelton changed his last name to Tebow we all may be talking about Arizona instead of Denver.

VR
12-28-2011, 01:34 PM
Since Tim Tebow has pretty much been forced down the throats of us non NFL Sunday Ticket fans I have watched many of their games. I am nothing but a fan but I like Denver's receiving corps. I think Eric Decker will be a very solid to good NFL WR. Thomas was a former first round pick who hasn't really done much this year until recently.

The Tebow "magic" has been largely done against prevent defense later on in the game. If Skelton changed his last name to Tebow we all may be talking about Arizona instead of Denver.

Decker reminds me of Jordy Nelson 3 years ago...hopefully he can improve as much as him.

Thomas is a stud, but as a tight end, he's the only guy that can get open on his own....the rest of the receivers just don't have the talent, or hands for that matter.

Tebow got exposed when they went to strictly 7 step drop backs once they got behind. I think the lesson for this season is to keep running the triple option....and hope a real offseason will provide TT the growth opportunity needed for traditional NFL dropback passing.

bucksfan2
12-28-2011, 02:12 PM
Decker reminds me of Jordy Nelson 3 years ago...hopefully he can improve as much as him.

Thomas is a stud, but as a tight end, he's the only guy that can get open on his own....the rest of the receivers just don't have the talent, or hands for that matter.

Tebow got exposed when they went to strictly 7 step drop backs once they got behind. I think the lesson for this season is to keep running the triple option....and hope a real offseason will provide TT the growth opportunity needed for traditional NFL dropback passing.

I think Decker will be a good WR in the slot, probably one of the better ones out of the slot. I really liked him when he was at Minnesota in college before he got injured.

As for Tebow I have heard two very interesting comments about him and his worth ethic. They were analysis on ESPN or maybe even ESPN Radio hosts. But they weren't questioning if Tebow worked out hard rather if he worked out smart. It was more to the point that he will hit the weight room until he drops but it isn't necessarily the smart thing to do if you are a QB. Someone also brought up more recently that when the lockout hit some QB's went out and worked out with QB coaches and QB guru's while Tim went and pumped iron.

John Elway and John Fox have a tremendously difficult decision to make in the off season. Its pretty clear that Elway isn't exactly enamored with Tebow but pretty much has his hand forced to bring him back next season. The key for the Broncos will be his development over the offseason and into next year. I don't expect him to be a starting caliber NFL QB going forward. I think he can be a useful QB, getting 10-15 snaps a game in specialty packages.

Dom Heffner
12-28-2011, 10:10 PM
I'd stack the box, make Tebow throw the ball 35 times and watch him fail.

Brutus
01-01-2012, 07:17 PM
6-of-22 today for 60 yards for Tebow.

Time to realize this guy isn't an NFL QB.

Joseph
01-01-2012, 07:21 PM
6-of-22 today for 60 yards for Tebow.

Time to realize this guy isn't an NFL QB.

We can all certainly hope that notion is finally realized. Make him a TE, or a LB or whatever. He's athletic, he could do some things, but QB at this level isn't one of them. Either that or go full on option-offense in Denver.

CTA513
01-01-2012, 07:34 PM
6-of-22 today for 60 yards for Tebow.

Time to realize this guy isn't an NFL QB.

Its even worse when you see that the Broncos ran for over 200 yards.

Dom Heffner
01-01-2012, 07:36 PM
There a playoff team, so apparently they're just fine lol....

He's a joke, no other way around it.

Mutaman
01-02-2012, 12:13 AM
There a playoff team, so apparently they're just fine lol....

He's a joke, no other way around it.

No, the joke is those folks on the right who tried to make Tebow into something he wasn't - an NFL quarterback. i suspect you won't hear Hannity bringing up Tebow's name anymore.

ervinsm84
01-02-2012, 09:32 AM
In the most epic battle in history since



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_gtA1TtjGVM0/SPyLeE1yHNI/AAAAAAAAAHQ/5l6SV37Um34/s1600/good-vs-evil.jpg


A war between Good and Evil

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs43/i/2009/282/7/8/Devil_vs_Jesus_by_ongchewpeng.jpg


Light

http://www.thesportsbank.net/core/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/tebow-christ2.jpg

vs

Dark
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/jayishere74/browns%20-%20buckeyes/140824copy-Copy.jpg


Rapists
http://sports.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/wwjinq.jpg.gif

vs

Tebows
https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQW5CZMZ9F8l32EGk60EgfV2HAhgvDCI HjiNAiKoOu6aInUoGyE


Some of you may worry after seeing this,


http://gif.mocksession.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/TEBOW-FREAKOUT.gif



But Tebow saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.



And into the playoffs the Chosen One led them. For with faith in God, you can move mountains, and even win games with Tim Tebow as your Quarterback.



http://gif.mocksession.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/TEBOW-ENRAPTURED.gif

ervinsm84
01-08-2012, 11:22 PM
teeeeeeboooow

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/856603/tebows.gif


http://cdn.jockpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/skip-bayless-dougie.gif

http://gif.mocksession.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/THE-ELWAY-EPIPHANY.gif


http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/856891/cbs.gif

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/405967_569077083327_52601127_31381751_1747221715_n .jpg

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/857168/ben.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/F4UDc.jpg

Jefferson24
01-08-2012, 11:33 PM
He makes the longer, tough passes and misses the shorter, easier ones. Guess what he will look like once the short passes start connecting. Give him an off season to work with the coaches and fine tune and the Broncos will have a pro-bowler next year.

ervinsm84
01-08-2012, 11:39 PM
http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy210/DaerX/detectiverapist.jpg

RadfordVA
01-09-2012, 04:08 AM
49% completion percentage is not cherry picking. That's not good, no matter how you slice it.


The thing that has bothered me the most with the coverage of Tebow is how its clearly pointed to the fact that NFL fans need to take a serious leap into new statistics. Completion percentage has to be right up there for most overrated stats in sports. It tells you almost nothing about how successful someone was. The object of the game is to score points. Not complete passes at a 70% clip. The key stat should be is average yards gained per pass play called. If a quarterback scrambles for yardage on a pass play that helps the team as much as a completed pass because defense has to account for when the opponent drops back. 1-3 for 45 yards is going to be better than 2-3 for 18 yards.

Also I do not understand why Tebow does not get the benefit of doubt that he will improve like any other young quarterback in the league. Thru first 16 starts;


Tebow
Passing 2,700 yards 19 TD 9 INT Rushing 937 Yards 13 TD

Elway
Passing 2,405 yards 10 TD 20 INT Rushing 230 Yards 1 TD

Now why in the world would anyone looking at that write Tebow off as never going to be good enough? If anything he should improve more than anyone if his mechanics are so flawed. Its not just Elway either most young quarterbacks have horrific starts to career but settle down and improve. Even Tom Brady was a game manager to start career. Oh and if you do want to look at completion percentage Elways was below 50% in these starts as well.

ervinsm84
01-09-2012, 04:31 AM
The key stat should be is average yards gained per pass play called.


Also I do not understand why Tebow does not get the benefit of doubt that he will improve like any other young quarterback in the league. Thru first 16 starts;


Tebow
Passing 2,700 yards 19 TD 9 INT Rushing 937 Yards 13 TD

Elway
Passing 2,405 yards 10 TD 20 INT Rushing 230 Yards 1 TD



A. Youre 100% right that comp% is a pretty useless statistic and there are tons of other more relevant ones like DYAR, DVOA, YPA, NY/A, ANY/A
B. Its also just as silly to compare Elways raw stats from his era to Tebows raw stats in his era with different passing rules in place that favor the offense
C. There is a stat similar to the one you ask for that accounts for yards per drop back is Known as NY/A, but it doesnt count his positive yardage scrambles, so its not exactly the same thing.

NY/A = Passing Yards- Sack Yards
-------------------------------
Passes Attempted+Times Sacked

TEbow was 33rd/34 NFL QBs in NY/A at 4.9

He's 28th/34 with a 4.8 in ANY/A which is almost the same as ny/a but is weighted for bonuses and penalties for pass TDs/ints.

ESPNs total QBR does track every drop back (including scrambles for positive yards and assigns + points in his favor accordingly as related to Expected Points Added) and as much flack as the new stat has gotten its still one of the better metrics. Tebow was 32nd/ 34 QBs in this statistic during the regular season. However, his rating in the steelers game was off the charts good, which I dont think would surprise anyone. That was by far his best game and he posted an almost perfect rating in the Steelers game, but it was virtually out of nowhere.

By every single measure out there, overall, he's been atrocious. I cant explain it. His team winning makes no sense. Vegas oddsmakers think hes terrible as well. Theyre 13.5 pt dogs at NE right now, and I wont be surprised if that rises during the week. Yet, now theyve won another game in absurd fashion. Maybe its just ridiculous run good variance. Maybe theres something he brings that we havent found a way to quantify (not the leadership, but how much his running threat helps their run game for instance) accurately. Im not sure what it is, but no matter what its extremely fun to watch and I'm completely entertained by not being able to explain it.

GAC
01-09-2012, 05:29 AM
He's not a NFL QB? He had his highs and lows this season no doubt. So go ahead and tear him apart statistically. But regardless of the fact he's TIM TEBOW (insert echo effect), he was still A ROOKIE for cryin' out loud. Does that account for anything? I'm impressed with what the kid was able to accomplish this year, and IMO I think he'll get better.

RadfordVA
01-09-2012, 08:11 AM
By every single measure out there, overall, he's been atrocious. I cant explain it. His team winning makes no sense. Vegas oddsmakers think hes terrible as well. Theyre 13.5 pt dogs at NE right now, and I wont be surprised if that rises during the week. Yet, now theyve won another game in absurd fashion. Maybe its just ridiculous run good variance. Maybe theres something he brings that we havent found a way to quantify (not the leadership, but how much his running threat helps their run game for instance) accurately. Im not sure what it is, but no matter what its extremely fun to watch and I'm completely entertained by not being able to explain it.


Thanks for some of the stat info. I dont see it ever being accepted widely in football as baseball. I guess it really should just be broken down to its simplest form. You say hes been atrocious by every measure. Except in the wins his TD to turnover ratio has been excellent. In the losses horrible. In the NFL if you put the ball in the endzone and dont turn it over you have a great chance to win. Just look at the Texans Bengals game. Yes Dalton is probably the better quarterback but Yates didnt make the mistakes.

RadfordVA
01-09-2012, 08:29 AM
B. Its also just as silly to compare Elways raw stats from his era to Tebows raw stats in his era with different passing rules in place that favor the offense
\.


I agree with you on the different eras. My point was not to make it out that Tebow was better at this stage than Elway was, as comparing different eras stats is difficult. More to say that Elway got drastically better like many other qbs in year 3 or 4 compared to their first 16 games starting. No real concrete reason that Tebow wouldnt improve as well. The level of qb play in this league is not real great after the first 10 or so, not sure why so many have already determined he cant be a viable starter in a league of 32 teams. People get so locked in on technique in football. Imagine if it was that way in baseball with all the crazy batting stances and pitching motions people have haha

IslandRed
01-09-2012, 10:52 AM
He's not a NFL QB? He had his highs and lows this season no doubt. So go ahead and tear him apart statistically. But regardless of the fact he's TIM TEBOW (insert echo effect), he was still A ROOKIE for cryin' out loud. Does that account for anything? I'm impressed with what the kid was able to accomplish this year, and IMO I think he'll get better.

Tebow's not a rookie.


I agree with you on the different eras. My point was not to make it out that Tebow was better at this stage than Elway was, as comparing different eras stats is difficult. More to say that Elway got drastically better like many other qbs in year 3 or 4 compared to their first 16 games starting. No real concrete reason that Tebow wouldnt improve as well. The level of qb play in this league is not real great after the first 10 or so, not sure why so many have already determined he cant be a viable starter in a league of 32 teams. People get so locked in on technique in football. Imagine if it was that way in baseball with all the crazy batting stances and pitching motions people have haha

I think Tebow can get better. I also think he'll have to, since next year's opponents have an entire offseason to prepare for the unique challenges he presents. His strengths and weaknesses are pretty obvious at this point so a lot of it will come down to matchups.

He did make a couple of throws yesterday he wouldn't have risked a few weeks ago, e.g. the TD pass to Royal. Maybe that "pull the trigger" speech helped. In the NFL, a QB that has to wait until the receiver is wide open to throw it is going to be waiting a lot. Although there were some wide open guys running through the Pittsburgh secondary yesterday. Not sure what that was about...

Stray
01-09-2012, 01:26 PM
He's become must see TV. Like when Tiger does something special on Sunday at a major you get those random texts asking if you're watching...from people that aren't even golf fans. My mom (who knows nothing about football really) calls me yesterday to ask if I just saw what Tebow did. It's really crazy the buzz this guy creates. Love him, hate him, or somewhere in between, most people are watching.

MWM
01-09-2012, 01:54 PM
How would you like to be Demarius Thomas today? He is the real hero of that win and no one is talking about him. That "play" was made by him.

Stray
01-09-2012, 02:02 PM
How would you like to be Demarius Thomas today? He is the real hero of that win and no one is talking about him. That "play" was made by him.

He definitely had a great game, but the reason Pittsburgh was playing true man with no safety deep is because of Tebow's ability to run the read option. If any other QB in the NFL is taking that snap it's a 20 yard gain.

It is crazy how Pittsburgh didn't allow a 100 yard receiver all year and Thomas went for 200. Ike Taylor was totally overmatched.

WMR
01-09-2012, 02:26 PM
The only thing funnier than the Tebow lovers are the Tebow haters. :laugh:

Sea Ray
01-09-2012, 02:48 PM
How would you like to be Demarius Thomas today? He is the real hero of that win and no one is talking about him. That "play" was made by him.

He did make a RAC but Tebow hit him in stride making that possible

Sea Ray
01-09-2012, 02:51 PM
Thanks for some of the stat info. I dont see it ever being accepted widely in football as baseball. I guess it really should just be broken down to its simplest form. You say hes been atrocious by every measure. Except in the wins his TD to turnover ratio has been excellent. In the losses horrible. In the NFL if you put the ball in the endzone and dont turn it over you have a great chance to win. Just look at the Texans Bengals game. Yes Dalton is probably the better quarterback but Yates didnt make the mistakes.

Yates also had the offensive line, running game and defense that Dalton didn't.

Funny thing is at NE, Tebow will have the superior running game, defense and special teams yet he's still a 2 TD dog

Brutus
01-09-2012, 03:59 PM
The thing that has bothered me the most with the coverage of Tebow is how its clearly pointed to the fact that NFL fans need to take a serious leap into new statistics. Completion percentage has to be right up there for most overrated stats in sports. It tells you almost nothing about how successful someone was. The object of the game is to score points. Not complete passes at a 70% clip. The key stat should be is average yards gained per pass play called. If a quarterback scrambles for yardage on a pass play that helps the team as much as a completed pass because defense has to account for when the opponent drops back. 1-3 for 45 yards is going to be better than 2-3 for 18 yards.

Also I do not understand why Tebow does not get the benefit of doubt that he will improve like any other young quarterback in the league. Thru first 16 starts;


Tebow
Passing 2,700 yards 19 TD 9 INT Rushing 937 Yards 13 TD

Elway
Passing 2,405 yards 10 TD 20 INT Rushing 230 Yards 1 TD

Now why in the world would anyone looking at that write Tebow off as never going to be good enough? If anything he should improve more than anyone if his mechanics are so flawed. Its not just Elway either most young quarterbacks have horrific starts to career but settle down and improve. Even Tom Brady was a game manager to start career. Oh and if you do want to look at completion percentage Elways was below 50% in these starts as well.

It's absolutely not useless. There might be better stats out there, but it's not useless. On 51% of the times he passes the ball, it's a wasted down. If you think that's useless, I'd rather you not coach my favorite teams lol

RadfordVA
01-09-2012, 05:28 PM
It's absolutely not useless. There might be better stats out there, but it's not useless. On 51% of the times he passes the ball, it's a wasted down. If you think that's useless, I'd rather you not coach my favorite teams lol

Its useless in the since that its a stat you can inflate anytime you want. You can check the ball down all day if you like. Im not sure if there is another stat that people deem important in sports that you can make better almost at will. It would be like a hitter able to get a cheap hit anytime he wants and increase his average.

Razor Shines
01-09-2012, 05:33 PM
Its useless in the since that its a stat you can inflate anytime you want. You can check the ball down all day if you like. Im not sure if there is another stat that people deem important in sports that you can make better almost at will. It would be like a hitter able to get a cheap hit anytime he wants and increase his average.

Uh, what? If a hitter could do that it would mean he could get on base whenever he wants.....that would be an incredibly valuable skill and that hitter would be the best player ever.

Stray
01-09-2012, 06:25 PM
He isn't that accurate, but another reason his % is lower is because when they throw they are taking shots down the field. There aren't many checkdowns in that passing game. His receivers also drop a ton of balls.

WMR
01-09-2012, 06:37 PM
What Tebow needs is a receiver who is great at catching bad balls. Many of his balls are "catchable" but not good throws.

Brutus
01-09-2012, 06:50 PM
Its useless in the since that its a stat you can inflate anytime you want. You can check the ball down all day if you like. Im not sure if there is another stat that people deem important in sports that you can make better almost at will. It would be like a hitter able to get a cheap hit anytime he wants and increase his average.

If it's so easy to check down whenever you want, why isn't he doing it more?

It's not like the Broncos have been throwing the ball downfield very much. Tebow's passing game has consisted largely of screens, flat passes and short out routes to begin with -- which makes his completion percentage that much worse.

No matter how you slice it, his numbers this season have been largely abysmal. His TD-INT ratio is about the only thing somewhat going for him. Even that wasn't otherworldly.

CTA513
01-09-2012, 06:52 PM
He isn't that accurate, but another reason his % is lower is because when they throw they are taking shots down the field. There aren't many checkdowns in that passing game. His receivers also drop a ton of balls.

Tebows 2011 passing splits according to ESPN:

pass thrown behind the line of scrimmage: 24 of 32 - 75% completion
1-10 yards: 55 of 95 - 57.9% completion
11-20 yards: 31 of 84 - 36.9% completion
21-30 yards: 10 of 32 - 31.3% completion
31-40 yards: 4 of 21 - 19% completion
40+ yards: 0 of 5 - 0% completion

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/13200/tim-tebow

Brutus
01-09-2012, 09:24 PM
Tebows 2011 passing splits according to ESPN:

pass thrown behind the line of scrimmage: 24 of 32 - 75% completion
1-10 yards: 55 of 95 - 57.9% completion
11-20 yards: 31 of 84 - 36.9% completion
21-30 yards: 10 of 32 - 31.3% completion
31-40 yards: 4 of 21 - 19% completion
40+ yards: 0 of 5 - 0% completion

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/13200/tim-tebow

That pretty much destroys that narrative considering almost half his passes are less than 10 yards.

Chip R
01-09-2012, 10:27 PM
Yates also had the offensive line, running game and defense that Dalton didn't.

Funny thing is at NE, Tebow will have the superior running game, defense and special teams yet he's still a 2 TD dog

That's probably because they got their butts kicked last time they played NE.

MWM
01-09-2012, 10:50 PM
It's amazing how people have completely forgotten about the last 3 games of the season. It's like they never happened.

And the whole "hater" comments were tired like a month ago. Here's what happens: we all watch the games. The Broncos win and it's all because of Tebow. Some of us just don't buy what's shoved in our faces and dare to offer an opposing viewpoint that the guy isn't that good. That viewpoint is often times met with accusations of being a hater. Lame.

Stray
01-09-2012, 11:09 PM
Tebows 2011 passing splits according to ESPN:

pass thrown behind the line of scrimmage: 24 of 32 - 75% completion
1-10 yards: 55 of 95 - 57.9% completion
11-20 yards: 31 of 84 - 36.9% completion
21-30 yards: 10 of 32 - 31.3% completion
31-40 yards: 4 of 21 - 19% completion
40+ yards: 0 of 5 - 0% completion

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/13200/tim-tebow

Again, I'm not saying he's accurate, but by those stats he's throwing 21 yards+ around 21% of the time. Quick math in my head tells me Dalton is making those throws around 10% of the time, and Tom Brady around 7% of the time.

I was saying there's not a lot of checkdowns based on the games I've seen, but they definitely do run a ton of screen plays so I didn't consider those.

fearofpopvol1
01-09-2012, 11:27 PM
If it's so easy to check down whenever you want, why isn't he doing it more?

It's not like the Broncos have been throwing the ball downfield very much. Tebow's passing game has consisted largely of screens, flat passes and short out routes to begin with -- which makes his completion percentage that much worse.

No matter how you slice it, his numbers this season have been largely abysmal. His TD-INT ratio is about the only thing somewhat going for him. Even that wasn't otherworldly.

Can you even name the receivers he throws to without looking? And how good would you say they are compared to the rest of the league? Are they stars?

Brutus
01-09-2012, 11:56 PM
Can you even name the receivers he throws to without looking? And how good would you say they are compared to the rest of the league? Are they stars?

What does my knowing the Broncos receivers have to do with Tim Tebow's completion percentage? And as ridiculous a question as that is... yes I do, despite it being totally immaterial.

TeamSelig
01-10-2012, 01:57 PM
I watched every Tim Tebow start this year... the receivers are really inconsistent. They will make a lot of "hard" catches (by hard I mean catches that your above avg WRs will make)... then they will routinely let balls bounce off their hands/chests/etc. Decker and Thomas are decent.... I think if you add a legit #1 receiver, their the WRs would be considered "good"

Honestly, I think a great catching TE would be perfect for Tebow. Tons of PA/boot leg type routes are there for TEs.

fearofpopvol1
01-11-2012, 04:13 AM
What does my knowing the Broncos receivers have to do with Tim Tebow's completion percentage? And as ridiculous a question as that is... yes I do, despite it being totally immaterial.

The point of the question was...the receivers he throws to largely aren't very good and are unrecognizable.

When you have great receivers to throw to, you're more likely to complete more of your passes. He doesn't have Calvin Johnson or AJ Green or Reggie Wayne or a similar receiver to throw to.

GAC
01-11-2012, 05:00 AM
Tebow's not a rookie.

I understand he was drafted last year, but played pretty sparingly (learning) behind Kyle Orton. This is his first full year as the starter. So in that sense he's pretty much the rookie IMO.


I think Tebow can get better.

And that is all I'm saying. For some to claim that he is no NFL QB, at this stage, is kind of ridiculous IMO.

Chip R
01-11-2012, 09:28 AM
The point of the question was...the receivers he throws to largely aren't very good and are unrecognizable.

When you have great receivers to throw to, you're more likely to complete more of your passes. He doesn't have Calvin Johnson or AJ Green or Reggie Wayne or a similar receiver to throw to.

Yes, but it doesn't count when a pass is caught on a bounce.

blumj
01-11-2012, 09:36 AM
The point of the question was...the receivers he throws to largely aren't very good and are unrecognizable.

When you have great receivers to throw to, you're more likely to complete more of your passes. He doesn't have Calvin Johnson or AJ Green or Reggie Wayne or a similar receiver to throw to.

Thomas looks like he might have star potential, Royal and Decker seem decent, but it's hard to tell when they don't throw very much.

Slyder
01-11-2012, 10:26 AM
The point of the question was...the receivers he throws to largely aren't very good and are unrecognizable.

When you have great receivers to throw to, you're more likely to complete more of your passes. He doesn't have Calvin Johnson or AJ Green or Reggie Wayne or a similar receiver to throw to.

Sometimes QBs can make WR look really bad. How did Roddy White do after Vick was arrested/released and they drafted Ryan?

fearofpopvol1
01-11-2012, 01:41 PM
Yes, but it doesn't count when a pass is caught on a bounce.

Have you watched a lot of the Broncos games? The receivers have dropped PLENTY of balls. I'm not suggesting Tebow hasn't made poor throws, he has. But good receivers would have caught a lot more of the balls that were dropped and unfortunately, Tebow's completion percentage drops because of those blunders.

fearofpopvol1
01-11-2012, 01:43 PM
Thomas looks like he might have star potential, Royal and Decker seem decent, but it's hard to tell when they don't throw very much.

I don't personally think Thomas looks like a star, but he is better than the others. Royal and Decker are average at best IMO.

IslandRed
01-11-2012, 03:00 PM
Drops happen. The Broncos have a relatively high drop rate, but based on my math -- taking the Broncos' rate of dropped passes of 6.5% (drops / attempts), cutting that rate in half (making them the most sure-handed team in the league as far as I can tell, slightly better than the New England Patriots' 3.5%), figuring out how many more completions that would yield (14) and giving them all to Tebow (I never liked Kyle Orton anyway), Tebow's completion percentage goes from 46.5% to 51.6%.

Can't blame it all on the receivers.

Yes, there are plenty of teams out there with better groups, but you have to realize that up to this point, Tebow's generally needed guys to be wide open by NFL standards before he'd pull the trigger and that just doesn't happen a great deal regardless of whose receivers you're talking about. Defensive backs get paid a lot of money too.

Again, none of this is to suggest he can't improve. I'm still skeptical he'll ever be good at executing a passing game The NFL Way but maybe the Broncos can continue finding new ways to skin cats.

TeamSelig
01-11-2012, 10:55 PM
I think you also need to account for rhythm that is disrupted by drops. It also can put you in 3rd & long situations, etc. It's a little more than figuring some math up to put the Broncos at a league average drop rate and recalculate the pass %.

WMR
01-11-2012, 11:05 PM
There is plenty of room at the Altar of Tebow. All are welcome to bask in His presence. :D

Hoosier Red
01-11-2012, 11:50 PM
To me he's a taller, stronger Jeff Blake. Throws a good deep ball but wildly inconsistent on short throws. Also reminds me of Big Ben. First few years Steelers managed expectations a/ good defense and running game. Makes the occasional deep ball more devastating.

bucksfan2
01-12-2012, 09:23 AM
It's amazing how people have completely forgotten about the last 3 games of the season. It's like they never happened.

And the whole "hater" comments were tired like a month ago. Here's what happens: we all watch the games. The Broncos win and it's all because of Tebow. Some of us just don't buy what's shoved in our faces and dare to offer an opposing viewpoint that the guy isn't that good. That viewpoint is often times met with accusations of being a hater. Lame.

There are a number of moving parts that make or break a play. During the OT TD there were serveral factors that led to the TD being scored. It was a heck of a call by the Denver OC when you consider they ran on a large portion of first down plays. Then you have to ask why the Steelers were in an all out run prevention that early in OT. Also why did Ike Taylor play on the outside when there really wasn't help over the top. And finally it was one heck of a catch and run by Thomas who beat the CB and S with a stiff arm and raced to the endzone for a TD. In all honesty in all the football games I watched any NFL quality QB makes that throw. It was pretty much an "easy" if the NFL is easy, pitch and catch.

But if you ask anyone it was all Tim Tebow.

Todd Gack
01-12-2012, 09:42 AM
Does anyone remember Tebow's last pass before he threw the standard post pattern to Thomas for 80 yards?

Tony Cloninger
01-12-2012, 09:48 AM
There are a number of moving parts that make or break a play. During the OT TD there were serveral factors that led to the TD being scored. It was a heck of a call by the Denver OC when you consider they ran on a large portion of first down plays. Then you have to ask why the Steelers were in an all out run prevention that early in OT. Also why did Ike Taylor play on the outside when there really wasn't help over the top. And finally it was one heck of a catch and run by Thomas who beat the CB and S with a stiff arm and raced to the endzone for a TD. In all honesty in all the football games I watched any NFL quality QB makes that throw. It was pretty much an "easy" if the NFL is easy, pitch and catch.

But if you ask anyone it was all Tim Tebow.



Have you seen Skip Bayless on ESPN 1st Take? This guy is certifiable.....and it dumbfounds me they allow him such a platform when it comes to this guy.

He argues over NFL Players to get his point across. I am still shocked no one has done a Jim Everett/Jim Rome on him.

Stray
01-12-2012, 11:05 AM
There are a number of moving parts that make or break a play. During the OT TD there were serveral factors that led to the TD being scored. It was a heck of a call by the Denver OC when you consider they ran on a large portion of first down plays. Then you have to ask why the Steelers were in an all out run prevention that early in OT. Also why did Ike Taylor play on the outside when there really wasn't help over the top. And finally it was one heck of a catch and run by Thomas who beat the CB and S with a stiff arm and raced to the endzone for a TD. In all honesty in all the football games I watched any NFL quality QB makes that throw. It was pretty much an "easy" if the NFL is easy, pitch and catch.

But if you ask anyone it was all Tim Tebow.

I'm not saying that it's all Tim Tebow, since he's taken over I do think his leadership has fired up everyone around him though.

For that particular play in OT I'm pretty sure the backup FS was supposed to be playing deep. Ike Taylor isn't a bad CB, and he played it like he was expecting help. Tebow is the only QB in the NFL running the read option though, and on 1st down the safties were cheating up to stop his running threat. Thomas made an incredible run after the catch, but just having Tebow in that backfield is what opened up the field for him.

bucksfan2
01-12-2012, 11:23 AM
I'm not saying that it's all Tim Tebow, since he's taken over I do think his leadership has fired up everyone around him though.

For that particular play in OT I'm pretty sure the backup FS was supposed to be playing deep. Ike Taylor isn't a bad CB, and he played it like he was expecting help. Tebow is the only QB in the NFL running the read option though, and on 1st down the safties were cheating up to stop his running threat. Thomas made an incredible run after the catch, but just having Tebow in that backfield is what opened up the field for him.

The read option is overblown. The safeties were cheating up because Denver had run the vast majority of times on 1st down. I forget the stat but it was something like 80%. If you ask me it was a poor defensive call that early in the OT. It was a very good play call, nice throw by Tebow, and a great catch and run by Thomas. To give Tebow all the credit (which many are doing) is ignoring all the other moving pieces that enabled that play to happen.

Sea Ray
01-12-2012, 11:39 AM
The read option is overblown. The safeties were cheating up because Denver had run the vast majority of times on 1st down. I forget the stat but it was something like 80%. If you ask me it was a poor defensive call that early in the OT. It was a very good play call, nice throw by Tebow, and a great catch and run by Thomas. To give Tebow all the credit (which many are doing) is ignoring all the other moving pieces that enabled that play to happen.

I think Palomalu was out of position. He was sneaking up on the right side of the line as the play went left. He had no chance to make a tackle on a sweep going left so he should have dropped back to cover the middle of the field. He realized that too late

Stray
01-12-2012, 11:47 AM
The read option is overblown. The safeties were cheating up because Denver had run the vast majority of times on 1st down. I forget the stat but it was something like 80%. If you ask me it was a poor defensive call that early in the OT. It was a very good play call, nice throw by Tebow, and a great catch and run by Thomas. To give Tebow all the credit (which many are doing) is ignoring all the other moving pieces that enabled that play to happen.

I wouldn't say it's overblown, the Broncos are the #1 rushing team in the NFL. Willis McGahee and Lance Ball aren't world beaters or anything. Their O Line is really really good, and the threat of Tebow off the corner keeps DE's from crashing down. Having to account for the QB with a down lineman gives that good O line a numbers advantage in the running game, that is unless opposing defenses commit a safety or two in the box.

I do agree it was a dumb to have both up in OT, but Pittsburgh played that entire game like Denver wasn't good enough to beat true man to man with 3 on 3 in pass routes. That's a mistake I'm sure Belichick will not make.

RadfordVA
01-12-2012, 11:57 AM
And that is all I'm saying. For some to claim that he is no NFL QB, at this stage, is kind of ridiculous IMO.

This is the key point. He clearly is a better option than alot of teams have and people should assume he will improve with time like most QBs. This team is one that was 1-4 at start of the season. Not exactly a lot of talent there.

Broncos were 27th in league in passing when Tebow took over. 27th! Its safe to say that any young qb placed in that enviroment would struggle. How could they not. They had proved to be a dysfunctional unit already with a veteran qb. While they have dropped to 32nd in passing at least they have become the top ranked rushing offense with him at QB. I dont think that would have been possible with another option they had at qb.

RadfordVA
01-12-2012, 12:04 PM
Does anyone remember Tebow's last pass before he threw the standard post pattern to Thomas for 80 yards?

No. Does anyone remember the drive before the drive in 1987?

WMR
01-12-2012, 12:45 PM
Is it just a coincidence that nearly all of Tebow's harshest critics on this board are tOSU fans? Just asking. ;)

Hey, it's cool, I've never been a big Mike Bibby fan either. :lol:

MWM
01-12-2012, 01:21 PM
It's less of a coincidence than you being a fan because he's from the SEC. You just don't get it, but that's nothing new.

WMR
01-12-2012, 01:24 PM
It's less of a coincidence than you being a fan because he's from the SEC. You just don't get it, but that's nothing new.

I'm no big Tebow fan. Just an observation about who is leading the Anti-Tebow crusade on here...

Nice personal attack, btw. :)

bucksfan2
01-12-2012, 02:04 PM
I'm no big Tebow fan. Just an observation about who is leading the Anti-Tebow crusade on here...

Nice personal attack, btw. :)

Why is it whenever you question Tebow you become Anti-Tebow?

blumj
01-12-2012, 03:21 PM
It does seem to be quite difficult for people to discuss the way Tebow plays football without assumptions or accusations of other agendas seeping into the discussion.

IslandRed
01-12-2012, 03:57 PM
I think you also need to account for rhythm that is disrupted by drops. It also can put you in 3rd & long situations, etc. It's a little more than figuring some math up to put the Broncos at a league average drop rate and recalculate the pass %.

I think it's safe to say the receivers' poor hands are costing Tebow completions, and Tebow's inaccuracy is costing the receivers catches. Seems like an equitable arrangement. :p

Sea Ray
01-12-2012, 04:21 PM
I think Tebow's lack of touch contributes to those drops as well. Simply put he doesn't throw the most "catchable ball" in the world

dabvu2498
01-12-2012, 05:41 PM
I like watching the kid play football.

Don't care much about his stats, where he went to school, or his religiocity.

I just like watching him play football.

VR
01-13-2012, 02:53 AM
I like watching the kid play football.

Don't care much about his stats, where he went to school, or his religiocity.

I just like watching him play football.

Good point....in common with a large part of the US football population. Highest rated WC game in 25 years, most popular athete in the US, a guy on the narrow path of humility despite the extraordinary (and honestly, too much) attention given by the media.

"He's one of the only guys I know that gives credit to his teammates, and actually means it"

Love him or hate him, can't deny the gold mine that he represents right now.

WMR
01-13-2012, 05:58 AM
IMO, the biggest reason he has become so popular is because of his transparency.

More than any professional athlete that I can remember, good or bad, Tebow truly seems to be "walking the talk." Considering what he did to my favorite team while he was in college, I should not be a fan.

I find myself rooting for Tebow for the same reasons I root for Rocky or Rudy. He is the underdog and I want to see the underdog come out on top.

blumj
01-13-2012, 08:59 AM
But, shouldn't divine intervention even up underdog status? :confused:

MWM
01-13-2012, 09:10 AM
I'd hardly call him the underdog. He was the most hyped college player I can remember, and it's not even close. He was not very good his senior year, yet was somehow in the top 6 in Heisman voting (that particular year he shouldn't have even been in the top 20). He was a first round draft pick. He's only an underdog because he's not looked very good as an NFL-type QB. His team is winning with him not playing a very effective QB. If he's an "underdog", it's simply because of how HE has played. How he could be called an underdog otherwise escapes me.

I really wish people would stop thinking those who watch him and don't think he should be getting all the credit, and who think what we're seeing now is not sustainable somehow are rooting against him or having something personal against him. It's not the case. It's just an opposing viewpoint from the constant "Tebow wins" headlines we're always seeing.

I can think of only a couple of other QBs in the NFL who get virtually all the credit when his team wins. It's the thing I couldn't stand about the Tom Brady coverage earlier in his career. He's a great QB, but it was like no one else was on the field. When the Pats won, it was Brady who won. I really dislike this type of hype and coverage.

blumj
01-13-2012, 09:36 AM
Never really saw that as a Pats fan, it always seemed like Belichick got all the credit for being the puppetmaster pulling all these genius strings with nothing but average players.

Chip R
01-13-2012, 10:04 AM
I think Tebow's lack of touch contributes to those drops as well. Simply put he doesn't throw the most "catchable ball" in the world

I think you might have something here. That's really something that's difficult to tell from watching TV. That's not to see he's got guys on his team that are great receivers but when you're used to catching balls from one guy and then another guy comes in and his ball comes in differently (remember, Tebow's a lefty so the ball's going to spin the opposite of when Orton threw the ball.) Takes a while to get used to that. Tebow also has problems mechanically when he brings the ball back to throw it. A lot of the time he will bring it down to his hip like a baseball pitcher instead of not getting it any lower than the chest. That's going to cause problems for him for obvious reasons. He doesn't do it all the time but you have to think that's a natural motion for him and he's probably going to regress back to it when he's tired or is under pressure.

I thought Thom Brennaman was going to bust into the CBS booth last week and punch out Phil Simms out of jealousy. Anything Tebow did was wonderful. He'd bounce one in there and Simms would say it was a great throw. How much do you think the NFL (and CBS and NBC) wants Denver in the Super Bowl? The ratings will be through the roof.

TeamSelig
01-13-2012, 11:45 AM
Never was a Florida fan but a classic.

Tim Tebow Speech - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlIQFf7A5wY)

Todd Gack
01-13-2012, 12:38 PM
This is the key point. He clearly is a better option than alot of teams have and people should assume he will improve with time like most QBs. This team is one that was 1-4 at start of the season. Not exactly a lot of talent there.

Broncos were 27th in league in passing when Tebow took over. 27th! Its safe to say that any young qb placed in that enviroment would struggle. How could they not. They had proved to be a dysfunctional unit already with a veteran qb. While they have dropped to 32nd in passing at least they have become the top ranked rushing offense with him at QB. I dont think that would have been possible with another option they had at qb.

Here's the thing: The only reason they're doing the spread option so much is because EVERYONE knows Timmy can't throw the ball with any kind of consistency. Tebow is the worst passing starting QB in the league. Would anyone argue that? THey HAVE to run in order for him to be successful and they CAN'T get down because they know he can't pass worth a lick when he's forced to sit back in the pocket.

Todd Gack
01-13-2012, 12:39 PM
No. Does anyone remember the drive before the drive in 1987?

Please tell me: What was so special that Tebow did on his pass to Thomas?

cincrazy
01-13-2012, 12:45 PM
Here's the thing: The only reason they're doing the spread option so much is because EVERYONE knows Timmy can't throw the ball with any kind of consistency. Tebow is the worst passing starting QB in the league. Would anyone argue that? THey HAVE to run in order for him to be successful and they CAN'T get down because they know he can't pass worth a lick when he's forced to sit back in the pocket.

I can think of several starting QBs that are worse at throwing the ball than Tebow. Anyone who has started for the Colts this year, Blaine Gabbert, the Beck/Grossman poo poo platter in Washington. No, Tebow isn't the most accurate passer. Yes, he struggles sometimes making basic throws.

But he also just lit up the Steelers for over 300 yards in a playoff game. How many guys have done that? I was really hard on this guy for a really long time. But I've got to give him credit when credit is due. He's not nearly as good as some make him out to be (hello, Skip Bayless). But on the same hand, his detractors (and there are many) don't give him nearly enough credit. He throws a BEAUTIFUL deep ball.

I think he has many similarities to Big Ben when he first came in the league. Throws a great deep ball, is hard to bring down, can scramble, and runs a limited offense. Why can't he be a lefty version of Big Ben?

Brutus
01-13-2012, 12:52 PM
I'd hardly call him the underdog. He was the most hyped college player I can remember, and it's not even close. He was not very good his senior year, yet was somehow in the top 6 in Heisman voting (that particular year he shouldn't have even been in the top 20). He was a first round draft pick. He's only an underdog because he's not looked very good as an NFL-type QB. His team is winning with him not playing a very effective QB. If he's an "underdog", it's simply because of how HE has played. How he could be called an underdog otherwise escapes me.

I really wish people would stop thinking those who watch him and don't think he should be getting all the credit, and who think what we're seeing now is not sustainable somehow are rooting against him or having something personal against him. It's not the case. It's just an opposing viewpoint from the constant "Tebow wins" headlines we're always seeing.

I can think of only a couple of other QBs in the NFL who get virtually all the credit when his team wins. It's the thing I couldn't stand about the Tom Brady coverage earlier in his career. He's a great QB, but it was like no one else was on the field. When the Pats won, it was Brady who won. I really dislike this type of hype and coverage.

I got sick of the media attention at Florida, but at least there, I thought it was a little more deserving than at Denver. As far as college quarterbacks go, I truly believe he was one of the better ones in many years. I would take Tim Tebow to start a college program every day of the week. I would not remotely touch him with a 10-foot pole to be my NFL QB, though. The hype carried over to the pros but unfortunately the value did not.

kaldaniels
01-13-2012, 01:07 PM
Please tell me: What was so special that Tebow did on his pass to Thomas?

He chose the right reciever and hit him perfectly in stride allowing Thomas to not have to slow down. Tebow was perfect on that play. So was Thomas.

I do wish the focus was on the Steelers (Polamalu?) D though. To not have at least one safety play deep in OT where a TD beats you is insane. This play aside, one trip-up by your CB and you are headed to the showers. Poor coaching and/or execution. That play should have resulted in a 15-20 yard gain, nothing more.

Roy Tucker
01-13-2012, 01:25 PM
Championships are won and lost on making or not making plays you should make. And in the pros that is so magnified.

The guys are so good and so fast, all it takes is one bad step, one look in the wrong direction, one little deke, one brain cramp, and you're toast.

I hated Tebow at Florida but I kinda like him at Denver. I'm still a naysayer of his long-term success because of his lack of replicability in his throwing motion, but I'd be fine if he proves me wrong and I think it would be a nice story.

Stray
01-13-2012, 03:25 PM
If ESPN has shown us anything it's that they will overdo just about anything they get their hands on. The Tiger Woods sex scandal, the Brett Favre 'retirement' saga, the Penn State scandal...etc. With all of the bad guys and all of the bad stories in and around sports, I don't mind that ESPN has decided to overdo this Tim Tebow thing. If it wasn't him it would just be someone else. I also think a lot of the anger around Tim Tebow is misplaced, he's not asking for this attention. He didn't ask to be drafted in the 1st round, he didn't ask for Merrill Hoge to take such a strong stance against him, and he sure as heck didn't ask for Skip Bayless to turn him into a worldwide phenomenon.

With all of that, he's at least using his fame in a very good way. That can't be said of most athletes today. By all accounts he's about as genuine as it comes, even though I believe a lot of people deep down almost want him to be fake. He's visiting terminally ill children, cancer survivors, using his foundation to bring them and their families to games, and from their own words he's giving them hope. If the E!SPN hype train is even partly to blame for stuff like that, then by all means keep it rolling. When I get tired of it I'll change the channel.

Stories like this video are awesome, and I'll gladly watch these over hearing about Brett Favre sending raunchy text messages, Plaxico shooting his leg, or the latest player with a warrant out for his arrest.

"My Wish" series (2011): Adam's wish to meet Denver Broncos quarterback Tim Tebow - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEnh472Yd7s)

MWM
01-13-2012, 04:35 PM
See, this is where things get easily misconstrued. Tebow as a person is completely separate from Tebow the NFL QB. Someone can have an opposing POV on him and his future in the NFL than some of his fanbase and those who think he's going to be good without taking for granted how he is using his fame. One does not have to do with the other.

I think some think that people like me who just aren't buying that the current version of him on the field as being sustainable somehow are rooting for him to fail just so we can be right. I'm not that small minded. Were it not for fantasy football, I don't know that I could watch the NFL. There's very few players worth rooting for, IMO. I grow tired of all the chest bumping, taunting, and showboating that has become commonplace in any NFL game. The latest that has me annoyed as hell is the "first down celebration." I really don't like the theatrics that go into the current trend in TD celebrations, but at least it's for a scoring play. Now players feel like they need to dance for a first down, a sack, a good hit, a nice return, a good catch, you name it.

Anyway, back to my point. I'm pretty old-fashioned when it comes to the athletes I like. the NBA is unwatchable for this very reason. The NFL has almost reached that point for me. So having a guy like Tebow and what he brings from a quality of human being perspective is not lost on me. The NFL needs more like him and if he turns into a good and productive NFL QB, I will readily admit that's a great thing for the NFL and professional sports as a whole. I have no problem singing his praises for trying to use his position for good. And he appears to be completely genuine in his efforts. My hats are off to him for that and I wish more would follow his lead. But that doesn't make him a good NFL QB...... yet! He could become one, but how could anyone watch the last 3 games of the season and think they have any chance over an entire season to play good offense with him playing QB like that? Great guy, needs some work as a player.

Stray
01-13-2012, 05:07 PM
Yeah I wasn't necessarily talking about anyone on this board. I think a lot of posters here are above blind hate and genuinely critique him as nothing more than an NFL QB.

It was more a general statement to the hysteria surrounding the guy. He's such a lightning rod for debate, and there are so many people with strong opinions one way or the other.

Roy Tucker
01-13-2012, 10:01 PM
I hear what you're saying, MWM. And I agree.

Seems that Tebow has a fan in Rick Reilly. Nice story...

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7455943/believing-tim-tebow

gonelong
01-13-2012, 10:57 PM
I enjoy variety, and Tim Tebow is certainly providing that. He's ok in my book.

GL

WMR
01-14-2012, 12:26 AM
I'd hardly call him the underdog. He was the most hyped college player I can remember, and it's not even close. He was not very good his senior year, yet was somehow in the top 6 in Heisman voting (that particular year he shouldn't have even been in the top 20). He was a first round draft pick. He's only an underdog because he's not looked very good as an NFL-type QB. His team is winning with him not playing a very effective QB. If he's an "underdog", it's simply because of how HE has played. How he could be called an underdog otherwise escapes me.

I really wish people would stop thinking those who watch him and don't think he should be getting all the credit, and who think what we're seeing now is not sustainable somehow are rooting against him or having something personal against him. It's not the case. It's just an opposing viewpoint from the constant "Tebow wins" headlines we're always seeing.

I can think of only a couple of other QBs in the NFL who get virtually all the credit when his team wins. It's the thing I couldn't stand about the Tom Brady coverage earlier in his career. He's a great QB, but it was like no one else was on the field. When the Pats won, it was Brady who won. I really dislike this type of hype and coverage.

Did ANYONE predict he'd be a good NFL QB?

That's where the underdog status comes from, IMO.

MWM
01-14-2012, 12:42 AM
Uh, he was drafted in the first round.

Razor Shines
01-14-2012, 12:59 AM
Uh, he was drafted in the first round.

Well just about every expert thought that was completely insane.

I see your point about the hype, but I can also see how he could be viewed as an under dog.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

wolfboy
01-14-2012, 10:49 AM
Well just about every expert thought that was completely insane.

I see your point about the hype, but I can also see how he could be viewed as an under dog.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Except for the experts that work in Denver's front office.

VR
01-14-2012, 01:43 PM
See, this is where things get easily misconstrued. Tebow as a person is completely separate from Tebow the NFL QB. Someone can have an opposing POV on him and his future in the NFL than some of his fanbase and those who think he's going to be good without taking for granted how he is using his fame. One does not have to do with the other.

I think some think that people like me who just aren't buying that the current version of him on the field as being sustainable somehow are rooting for him to fail just so we can be right. I'm not that small minded. Were it not for fantasy football, I don't know that I could watch the NFL. There's very few players worth rooting for, IMO. I grow tired of all the chest bumping, taunting, and showboating that has become commonplace in any NFL game. The latest that has me annoyed as hell is the "first down celebration." I really don't like the theatrics that go into the current trend in TD celebrations, but at least it's for a scoring play. Now players feel like they need to dance for a first down, a sack, a good hit, a nice return, a good catch, you name it.

.

I think the opposite of that is assuming Tebow fans are thinking he is single handedly winning games, or God is somehow intervening on his behalf. (granted, like politics, there are extremists on both sides of the argument)

Tebow is the 'role model' that so many fans have been waiting for. A superstar in the spotlight that gives of himself, holds himself to high personal standards, and freely deflects credit to his teammates, while taking full responsibility on behalf of his teammates when there is failure. Unlike politics, the more background checks, digging into his past, and stakeouts on Tebow....the better the story gets.



They are predicting tonights game will be one of the most watched football games.....ever. That's got very little to do with Elvis Dumervil , Von Miller, Rob Gronkowksi, or the Josh McDaniels drama.

RBA
01-14-2012, 04:52 PM
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2012/01/tim-tebow-poll-43-believe-in-divine-intervention/1

Poll: 43% say Tim Tebow is winning via Divine Intervention

VR
01-14-2012, 05:04 PM
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2012/01/tim-tebow-poll-43-believe-in-divine-intervention/1

Poll: 43% say Tim Tebow is winning via Divine Intervention

Pretty impressive numbers for a 756 person phone poll. :laugh:

sonny
01-14-2012, 05:38 PM
I think the opposite of that is assuming Tebow fans are thinking he is single handedly winning games, or God is somehow intervening on his behalf. (granted, like politics, there are extremists on both sides of the argument)

Tebow is the 'role model' that so many fans have been waiting for. A superstar in the spotlight that gives of himself, holds himself to high personal standards, and freely deflects credit to his teammates, while taking full responsibility on behalf of his teammates when there is failure. Unlike politics, the more background checks, digging into his past, and stakeouts on Tebow....the better the story gets.



They are predicting tonights game will be one of the most watched football games.....ever. That's got very little to do with Elvis Dumervil , Von Miller, Rob Gronkowksi, or the Josh McDaniels drama.

Right on. He's the guy the
Sports universe and everybody else have been clamoring about and now that they have him, they can't wait to see him fail. Astonishing really.

RBA
01-14-2012, 05:59 PM
Pretty impressive numbers for a 756 person phone poll. :laugh:

They claim:
Margin of Error +/- 3 percentage points*
http://media.pollposition.com.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/Poll-Position-crosstabs-divine-intervention.pdf (http://media.pollposition.com.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/Poll-Position-crosstabs-divine-intervention.pdf)

Dom Heffner
01-14-2012, 10:39 PM
This is the guy they've been waiting for?

His story is great, except the part about not being a very good player.

Terrific person, not so good professional quarterback.

Stray
01-14-2012, 10:57 PM
Gonna be an interesting off season. Denver needs more offensive weapons.

It's worth noting that this is Tebow's 16th career start (if I remember correctly). I wouldn't have been ready to bury Dalton had he struggled, and I don't think they're quite ready to move on from Gabbert in Jacksonville. Tebow has a ton of room for improvement and there's no reason to think he won't get better, heck he's gotten better as this season has gone on.

Mutaman
01-14-2012, 11:11 PM
The best thing Denver can do is try to get Orton back. With Tebow, they'll sell a lot of tickets and merchandise, but they'll be a .500 club at best.

Stray
01-14-2012, 11:20 PM
Haha I dunno man. I'm not sold that Tebow is their future there, but no reason to go back to Orton who couldn't win in Denver.

If they look elsewhere they'll prolly draft someone.

Ohayou
01-14-2012, 11:48 PM
Tebow's a smart player and very coachable. He can and will get better.

Dom Heffner
01-14-2012, 11:57 PM
Gonna be an interesting off season. Denver needs more offensive weapons.

It's worth noting that this is Tebow's 16th career start (if I remember correctly). I wouldn't have been ready to bury Dalton had he struggled, and I don't think they're quite ready to move on from Gabbert in Jacksonville. Tebow has a ton of room for improvement and there's no reason to think he won't get better, heck he's gotten better as this season has gone on.

He completed two passes against the Chiefs. Two.

WVRed
01-15-2012, 12:06 AM
Except for the experts that work in Denver's front office.

The head coach who drafted Tebow was fired later that season. Unless they have the same GM, none of the above exist.

Stray
01-15-2012, 12:39 AM
He completed two passes against the Chiefs. Two.

He also threw for more yards against the Steelers (#1 pass defense) than any QB this entire year. I realize he can play on both ends of the spectrum, but there were obvious improvements in his game as the year went on.

Again, I'm not sold on him long term, but I'm saying I think it's still way too early in his career to make a fair judgement. If I were a GM I can't say he'd by my choice but hey what do I know. You can do a lot worse in your first 16 professional starts than Tim Tebow has, I do know that.

Dom Heffner
01-15-2012, 12:50 AM
He also threw for more yards against the Steelers (#1 pass defense) than any QB this entire year. I realize he can play on both ends of the spectrum, but there were obvious improvements in his game as the year went on.

Again, I'm not sold on him long term, but I'm saying I think it's still way too early in his career to make a fair judgement. If I were a GM I can't say he'd by my choice but hey what do I know. You can do a lot worse in your first 16 professional starts than Tim Tebow has, I do know that.

Yeah- he threw for more yards than anyone on just ten completions lol...Pretty flukey wouldn't you say?

One play went 80 yards...and that was what a 15 yard throw?

He isn't an NFL quarterback.

Dom Heffner
01-15-2012, 12:55 AM
Actually- maybe it's too soon to know...I'm not impressed so far.

WMR
01-15-2012, 03:45 AM
LOL orton over tebow... i dont even like the guy that much, but thats funny

wolfboy
01-15-2012, 10:54 AM
The head coach who drafted Tebow was fired later that season. Unless they have the same GM, none of the above exist.

Brian Xanders is still the GM. Josh McDaniels, the coach you reference, is enough of an "expert" that he was just picked up by Belicheck for the playoffs. I'm not arguing the wisdom of drafting Tebow in he first round, but it's not like we're talking about Joe Schmoe that made a bad fantasy pick.

Todd Gack
01-15-2012, 11:09 AM
I can think of several starting QBs that are worse at throwing the ball than Tebow. Anyone who has started for the Colts this year, Blaine Gabbert, the Beck/Grossman poo poo platter in Washington. No, Tebow isn't the most accurate passer. Yes, he struggles sometimes making basic throws.

But he also just lit up the Steelers for over 300 yards in a playoff game. How many guys have done that? I was really hard on this guy for a really long time. But I've got to give him credit when credit is due. He's not nearly as good as some make him out to be (hello, Skip Bayless). But on the same hand, his detractors (and there are many) don't give him nearly enough credit. He throws a BEAUTIFUL deep ball.

I think he has many similarities to Big Ben when he first came in the league. Throws a great deep ball, is hard to bring down, can scramble, and runs a limited offense. Why can't he be a lefty version of Big Ben?

Are any of those QB's running threats? They're much better PASSING QB's and they sit back in the pocket and actually read defenses. Tebow just sits back there like he's trying to read 'Atlas Shrugged' in Mandarin.

I mean, you do realize you're defending a guy who passed for 45.5% this year, right?

Todd Gack
01-15-2012, 11:10 AM
He chose the right reciever and hit him perfectly in stride allowing Thomas to not have to slow down. Tebow was perfect on that play. So was Thomas.

I do wish the focus was on the Steelers (Polamalu?) D though. To not have at least one safety play deep in OT where a TD beats you is insane. This play aside, one trip-up by your CB and you are headed to the showers. Poor coaching and/or execution. That play should have resulted in a 15-20 yard gain, nothing more.

It was a standard post pattern. Those are the kind of throws you teach 8th graders to throw on the 2nd day of practice. Not to mention it was the only read he had.

Revering4Blue
01-15-2012, 11:39 AM
I'm still wondering why the Broncos traded away Jay Cutler or Brandon Lloyd, who would have been a wondrous help, for that matter.

Revering4Blue
01-15-2012, 11:52 AM
]LOL orton over tebow[/B]... i dont even like the guy that much, but thats funny

I also found this to be funny.

Geez, it's only Tebow's first full year as a starter.


He isn't an NFL quarterback.

He may not be Dan Marino, but that's what the so-called experts said about Kordell Stewart, who merely led his team to the AFC championship two times, losing honorably to the eventual Super Bowl Champions each time.

If that's failure, most Bronco fans will take it.

There are no guarantees that Joe Schmoe robotic drop-back passer will prove to be any better than Tebow. In fact, the results may well be worse.

Ohayou
01-15-2012, 12:27 PM
These bitter haters make it sound like this is it. This, right now, is as good as Tim Tebow will ever be and there is no chance he will get better. This was his 16th career start. So essentially, he just completed his rookie year. And these people act like this is it, this is the limit. :rolleyes:

I guess we all need hobbies.

RBA
01-15-2012, 12:44 PM
Tebow did a good job this year. Many teams did not even make the playoffs. A couple months ago, not very many people thought the Broncos were going to come nowhere near the playoffs.

Mutaman
01-15-2012, 02:18 PM
[QUOTE=WMR;2524853]LOL orton over tebow... i dont even like the guy that much, but thats funny[/QUOTE


It was supposed to be funny, but name the one quarterback who beat Green Bay this year. (Hint- it wasn't Tevo).

The worst thing that ever happened to Denver was beating the Steelers. If they had lost that game they could have made Tim the team mascot, gone out and gotten a real quarterback, and everyone would have been happy. Now they're stuck with the guy.

Amazing how when the media starts hyping something how everyone just gets in line.

blumj
01-15-2012, 02:34 PM
It's not as if a stud franchise QB was all that likely to fall into their lap if they'd lost to the Steelers, though.

Mutaman
01-15-2012, 02:38 PM
It's not as if a stud franchise QB was all that likely to fall into their lap if they'd lost to the Steelers, though.

See Flynn, Matt. He's available to whoever wants him.

blumj
01-15-2012, 03:23 PM
Okay, but he's 1 guy, and with no shortage of other teams who should be in the market, is there some reason to think they'd have been the team to sign him? It just seems more likely to me that they'd have ended up with competition/backup like they will anyway.

bucksfan2
01-16-2012, 08:18 AM
Tebow's a smart player and very coachable. He can and will get better.

Don't know about this. Tebow seems like a hard worker but I don't know if I would consider him a smart worker. In the offseason many of the young QB's went to QB coaches because there were no mini camps. Tebow went to the gym and pumped iron. He needs to spend more time on his mechanics instead of his body.

MWM
01-16-2012, 08:39 AM
I don't know why people are laughing at the idea of Orton being a better QB than Tebow. He is, and it's not even close, IMO. Orton is not a great QB, but I doubt you'd find many GMs or head coaches who wouldn't prefer him over Tebow to run their offense. Orton has been in the league 7 years, much of that as a starter and he's shown enough that he'll still be sought ought by more than one team in the off-season. He's not someone I'd want as the future of my team, but he's not a terrible QB and I highly doubt Tebow will start as many games in his career as Orton does.

Stray
01-16-2012, 10:11 AM
I don't know why people are laughing at the idea of Orton being a better QB than Tebow. He is, and it's not even close, IMO. Orton is not a great QB, but I doubt you'd find many GMs or head coaches who wouldn't prefer him over Tebow to run their offense. Orton has been in the league 7 years, much of that as a starter and he's shown enough that he'll still be sought ought by more than one team in the off-season. He's not someone I'd want as the future of my team, but he's not a terrible QB and I highly doubt Tebow will start as many games in his career as Orton does.

Orton couldn't win with the same team that Tebow was winning with. For Denver to go back to him would be a huge step in the wrong direction. It's pretty hard to make fair comparisons with QBs from different teams, but in the Tebow vs. Orton case it's not hard at all. They became a better team when they benched Orton.

I will agree with you that some GMs would take him over Tebow though, but I don't think it has anything to do with Orton being better. To win with Tebow you have to totally commit to him, as is the case with any QB. The difference being that committing to Tebow means building an entire offense around him with players to fit a system that isn't gonna work with most QBs not named Tim Tebow. If you do that, which I think the Broncos will, and he gets injured, you're stuck with a weird offense and nobody to run it. You almost need to get a backup QB similar to Tebow just in case.

It's a giant leap of faith to make, but for Tebow to be successful it's one that needs to happen. That's why I've always said that if I were a GM I don't know if Tebow would be my guy, even though I do believe he's very capable of winning football games.

MWM
01-16-2012, 10:45 AM
It's not so black and white. It was only 2 years ago that the Broncos won 6 in a row with Orton as the QB.

I still don't get why folks always jump to the QB when talking wins and losses. Denver's offense in the 5 games Orton started for them this year averaged 22 points per game. In the games Tebow started it was 18.5. So how exactly then is it so clear that Orton is inferior? Some have argued that the defense began to play better because of Tebow. I don't buy any of that.

The Broncos D gave up 22 points or more 4 of those first 5 games. In the 6 game winning streak they gave up less than 20 points in 4 of those games. To me, if anything is obvious is that there's a serious discrepancy between the factual record and what many believe actually happened. Those final 3 games of the season seem to be completely forgotten. They lost all 3 and it pretty ugly fashion while all they needed was one more win to make the playoffs. They lucked into the playoffs because Oakland lost 4 of their last 5. That's not going out and claiming a playoff berth, that's backing into one because the rest of the division sucked less than they did.

IslandRed
01-16-2012, 12:16 PM
To win with Tebow you have to totally commit to him, as is the case with any QB. The difference being that committing to Tebow means building an entire offense around him with players to fit a system that isn't gonna work with most QBs not named Tim Tebow. If you do that, which I think the Broncos will, and he gets injured, you're stuck with a weird offense and nobody to run it. You almost need to get a backup QB similar to Tebow just in case.

It's a giant leap of faith to make, but for Tebow to be successful it's one that needs to happen. That's why I've always said that if I were a GM I don't know if Tebow would be my guy, even though I do believe he's very capable of winning football games.

I agree that designing an entire offense around Tebow is a leap of faith. The jury's still out on whether the college-style offense of the Broncos can work in the NFL long-term, because the NFL is a ruthless, quickly-adapting ecosystem. You're right, the backup QB is a huge issue if they're going that route.

But I don't necessarily think it's a huge long-term risk, in that (other than quarterbacks) I don't think they need super-specialized personnel to run it. If it doesn't work, they'll get a new quarterback and a new playbook, but that happens fairly frequently in the league as it is.

MWM
01-16-2012, 12:41 PM
But there's no evidence that it actually works. People are jumping to this conclusion based on a 6 game winning streak where the defense wasn't giving up a lot of points and they were pulling wins out of their rears in the 4th quarter. Heck, they lost 4 of the first games of the season, the ones that led to Orton being benched by less than 5 points, and 3 of those by 3 points or less. All of a sudden they fine themselves on the winning end of those close games and they have it all figured out? I doubt John Elway or John Fox thinks this is the direction they're taking the franchise. My guess is they'll have another QB option ready next year "just in case" the Tebow experiment winds up being more like the last 3 games of the season rather than the 6 prior to them.

IslandRed
01-16-2012, 02:16 PM
But there's no evidence that it actually works. People are jumping to this conclusion based on a 6 game winning streak where the defense wasn't giving up a lot of points and they were pulling wins out of their rears in the 4th quarter. Heck, they lost 4 of the first games of the season, the ones that led to Orton being benched by less than 5 points, and 3 of those by 3 points or less. All of a sudden they fine themselves on the winning end of those close games and they have it all figured out? I doubt John Elway or John Fox thinks this is the direction they're taking the franchise. My guess is they'll have another QB option ready next year "just in case" the Tebow experiment winds up being more like the last 3 games of the season rather than the 6 prior to them.

Well, the odds are certainly against it, although one could say you never know for sure until you try. I tend to lean towards the viewpoint that says Denver has already sprung its trap, and starting next year the strategic advantage shifts to the opposing defenses.

In the end, though, the Broncos can design the offense to maximize Tebow's well-acknowledged strengths if they want to, but ultimately success will depend on improvement in his equally-well-acknowledged weaknesses. And you're correct, they'll need a strong Plan B.

Redsfaithful
01-16-2012, 04:13 PM
Why couldn't a team win with the #1 rushing offense in the league? That's what Tebow offers. Combine that with a great defense and keep things honest by throwing deep now and then. It's not the current style, but so what?

One of the annoying things about the NFL is that every team does the same stuff. The Broncos should go out on a limb and try to make things work with Tebow. Not every team is going to have a Tom Brady.

WMR
01-16-2012, 05:34 PM
Elway came out with some very strong statements today towards Tebow.

He seems to feel he can be coached up beyond what he currently offers.

He has always been guarded in his assessments of Tebow, so I'm willing to take his statements at face value.

Revering4Blue
01-16-2012, 08:15 PM
Why couldn't a team win with the #1 rushing offense in the league? That's what Tebow offers. Combine that with a great defense and keep things honest by throwing deep now and then. It's not the current style, but so what?

One of the annoying things about the NFL is that every team does the same stuff. The Broncos should go out on a limb and try to make things work with Tebow. Not every team is going to have a Tom Brady.

I agree with every word.


You almost need to get a backup QB similar to Tebow just in case.

Vince Young...Paging Vince Young..

jmac
01-16-2012, 10:10 PM
Elway came out with some very strong statements today towards Tebow.

He seems to feel he can be coached up beyond what he currently offers.

He has always been guarded in his assessments of Tebow, so I'm willing to take his statements at face value.

Exactly ! I was a Bronco fan as kid before John Elway began his pro career.I will take his word over the ESPN experts anyday.

jmac
01-16-2012, 10:11 PM
I agree with every word.



Vince Young...Paging Vince Young..
There ya go. :thumbup:

Mutaman
01-16-2012, 11:38 PM
I don't know why people are laughing at the idea of Orton being a better QB than Tebow.

Because the media told them to.

kaldaniels
01-17-2012, 01:32 AM
The only PR move Elway could do was to endorse Tebow. Otherwise it would be a long 7 months.

Terms are subject to change.

Sea Ray
01-17-2012, 05:27 PM
It's not so black and white. It was only 2 years ago that the Broncos won 6 in a row with Orton as the QB.

I still don't get why folks always jump to the QB when talking wins and losses. Denver's offense in the 5 games Orton started for them this year averaged 22 points per game. In the games Tebow started it was 18.5. So how exactly then is it so clear that Orton is inferior? Some have argued that the defense began to play better because of Tebow. I don't buy any of that.

The Broncos D gave up 22 points or more 4 of those first 5 games. In the 6 game winning streak they gave up less than 20 points in 4 of those games. To me, if anything is obvious is that there's a serious discrepancy between the factual record and what many believe actually happened. Those final 3 games of the season seem to be completely forgotten. They lost all 3 and it pretty ugly fashion while all they needed was one more win to make the playoffs. They lucked into the playoffs because Oakland lost 4 of their last 5. That's not going out and claiming a playoff berth, that's backing into one because the rest of the division sucked less than they did.

So do you think the Broncos would have made the playoffs if they'd stuck with Orton?

Stray
01-17-2012, 06:27 PM
Because the media told them to.

I'm able to form my own opinions without help.

From an outsiders view what I saw with the Broncos was a team rallying around a strong leader and playing better football. You can look at Tebow's physical QB skills and analyze them all day. There are tons of flaws and a lot of room for improvement. It's only fair to take into account his intangibles, and that is something that most would agree are off the chart.

There are guys like Carson Palmer with all of the skills you could ever want and none of the intangibles, then there are guys like Tebow who are the exact opposite, and then a guy like Tom Brady who has the best of both worlds. It's often said in sports that great leaders elevate the game of everyone around them, I'm pretty sure that's what we saw happen in Denver. Because lets be real, that team doesn't really have a ton of talent or anything.

MWM
01-17-2012, 09:37 PM
So do you think the Broncos would have made the playoffs if they'd stuck with Orton?

What happened to sticking with facts? I thought that was your guiding principal?

I don't know and neither do you, nor does anyone else. I think they were probably just as likely, but it's just speculation. Did you forget that they won 6 in a row with Orton back in 2009? Did you see where I posted that 3 of the 4 losses with Orton as QB were less than 5 points with 2 of them being by 3 points or less?

Did you read where I said they actually scored more points per game with Orton at QB than with Tebow? If the offense actually scored more points per game with QB X than QB Y, then how is so far-fetched to think that they'd have been just as likely the playoffs with QB X? You'd have to be a moron to think scoring less points per game increases a team's chances of winning.

I don't know what everyone else thinks, but I have to believe scoring more points is better than scoring less. And I also have to think that if QB Y is much better than QB X, then the offense would actually perform better. If the offense performed worse, then I'd have a hard time concluding that the leader of that offense was significantly better.

I know which team won the game when the 2 QBs played head to head. And you do realize the Chiefs won 2 of 3 once they acquired Orton, including the sole loss the Packers had the whole year. They had loss 4 of 5 prior to that. Their only loss was a 3 point loss to Oakland. It gets really fuzzy when you start trying to pins wins and losses on a QB.

Sea Ray
01-17-2012, 09:44 PM
What happened to sticking with facts? I thought that was your guiding principal?

I don't know and neither do you, nor does anyone else. I think they were probably just as likely, but it's just speculation. Did you forget that they won 6 in a row with Orton back in 2009? Did you see where I posted that 3 of the 4 losses with Orton as QB were less than 5 points with 2 of them being by 3 points or less?

Did you read where I said they actually scored more points per game with Orton at QB than with Tebow? If the offense actually scored more points per game with QB X than QB Y, then how is so far-fetched to think that they'd have been just as likely the playoffs with QB X? You'd have to be a moron to think scoring less points per game increases a team's chances of winning.

I don't know what everyone else thinks, but I have to believe scoring more points is better. I know which team won the game when the 2 QBs played head to head.

You're confusing threads and I'm not surprised. I'm asking for speculation. Your opinion here. Granted none of us possess the power of Miss Cleo so there's no right or wrong answer when we try to guess if the Broncos would have fared better with Orton or Tebow.

I won't call you a moron for thinking the Broncos were headed anywhere with Orton as QB but I'll say stats be damned, there's no way they win the West with Orton as QB.

There is no right or wrong answer as we'll never know but I'm amazed how anyone can think that Tebow didn't inspire his team to the playoffs

MWM
01-17-2012, 09:48 PM
Because the facts don't support that assertion, that's how.

When all they needed was one win to get in, he couldn't seem to "inspire" them then. On a game where they won and they were in the playoffs, the offense managed all of 3 points. Is that "inspiring"?

Maybe he inspired the rest of the AFC to suck REALLY bad. Because it you're basing this whole inspiration idea on them getting into the playoffs, that was the real reason they go there.

Sea Ray
01-17-2012, 09:50 PM
Because the facts don't support that assertion, that's how.

It's my opinion that Tebow cannot be fully evaluated on stats alone. If you go by his stats, you can't figure out how his team won several of those games. One must look further than that.

MWM
01-17-2012, 10:47 PM
Actually, I think one must look further than the QB.

And it's not his stats. The offense scored LESS points with him. No one really knows what would have happened, but the implication is that the defense played better because Tebow was the QB. I just can't get behind that line of reasoning. It makes for an interesting narrative, but that doesn't make it truth.

Mutaman
01-17-2012, 11:52 PM
I'm able to form my own opinions without help.


Do you honestly think there would be a thread with over 200 posts if it wasn't for the hype? Why not a big thread for Cam Newton?

bucksfan2
01-18-2012, 08:19 AM
You're confusing threads and I'm not surprised. I'm asking for speculation. Your opinion here. Granted none of us possess the power of Miss Cleo so there's no right or wrong answer when we try to guess if the Broncos would have fared better with Orton or Tebow.

I won't call you a moron for thinking the Broncos were headed anywhere with Orton as QB but I'll say stats be damned, there's no way they win the West with Orton as QB.

There is no right or wrong answer as we'll never know but I'm amazed how anyone can think that Tebow didn't inspire his team to the playoffs

The Broncos won a game agaisnt a previously defeated team by scoring 15 points including an onsides kick recovery in the last few minutes of a game. They also sent a game into overtime with a 59 yard FG make and won the game with another long FG. They went 8-8 with a handful, yes a handful, of unprobable wins. Do I think Orton could have done that? I think if the defense played as good during a 6 game stretch they would have won more games easily than they did with Tebow at the helm.

Do I think Tebow's attitude helped, sure. But I also think inspired football only takes you so far.

MWM
01-18-2012, 09:09 AM
Maybe Matt Prater was the real inspiration behind the playoff push. :evil:

bucksfan2
01-18-2012, 09:25 AM
Maybe Matt Prater was the real inspiration behind the playoff push. :evil:

Prater was a stud during their winning streak. Dude was nailing 50 yard FG's like they were 30 yarders.

Sea Ray
01-18-2012, 01:23 PM
Actually, I think one must look further than the QB.

And it's not his stats. The offense scored LESS points with him. No one really knows what would have happened, but the implication is that the defense played better because Tebow was the QB. I just can't get behind that line of reasoning. It makes for an interesting narrative, but that doesn't make it truth.

I noticed the same thing in Boomer's last year when he replaced Jeff Blake. All of a sudden the O-line didn't suck and the defense seemed to play better. It's happened before when one player elevates the entire team.

I'm glad Tim Tebow is not my QB but I have to give him credit for taking a 1-4 team to the playoffs. I think by any measure he was a successful QB this year but I see problems in the future. In order for him to be successful you have to taylor an offense around him and then what do you do when he gets hurt? How can you possibly have a 2nd/3rd string guy who can run it?

And he will get hurt. He even had injuries playing this way in the SEC. Word is that he's hurt right now and if there was a game this weekend, he'd be listed as questionable.

I don't think the Broncos have discovered a new way to win in the NFL but I am enamored with how they do exactly that week after week with Tebow completing about two passes a qtr

Chip R
01-18-2012, 02:45 PM
And he will get hurt. He even had injuries playing this way in the SEC. Word is that he's hurt right now and if there was a game this weekend, he'd be listed as questionable.

I wonder what his views are on painkillers? One would think he's had to make a decision on whether to take them in the past.

Sea Ray
01-18-2012, 02:59 PM
I wonder what his views are on painkillers? One would think he's had to make a decision on whether to take them in the past.

I doubt he'd have a problem with them as long as they're taken to kill pain and not to get high

Revering4Blue
03-21-2012, 12:59 PM
Jets acquire Tim Tebow for draft pick

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/7718133/new-york-jets-acquire-tim-tebow-4th-round-pick

blumj
03-21-2012, 01:07 PM
Some things just seems too good to be true to even be worth contemplating, then one of those things actually happens, and you don't know how to react.

RichRed
03-21-2012, 02:03 PM
Some things just seems too good to be true to even be worth contemplating, then one of those things actually happens, and you don't know how to react.

HBO almost HAS to bring "Hard Knocks" back to Jets training camp, don't they?

Chip R
03-21-2012, 02:06 PM
This couldn't be any better for ESPN if they had a team in Bristol and Tebow played on it.

Stray
03-21-2012, 02:18 PM
I don't see this ending well for Mark Sanchez.

http://i41.tinypic.com/do6n1l.png

Chip R
03-21-2012, 03:11 PM
Now the Jets have twice the crappy QBs they had before.

WMR
03-21-2012, 03:43 PM
Why did the Jets just give Sanchez a big contract?

Dumb organization.

dabvu2498
03-21-2012, 04:04 PM
Now there's word this trade may be voided due to some language in Tebow's contract.

Sea Ray
03-21-2012, 04:12 PM
Now there's word this trade may be voided due to some language in Tebow's contract.

What in the world could that be?

Wonderful Monds
03-21-2012, 04:37 PM
What in the world could that be?

An extra 5 mil the Jets would have to pay him.

blumj
03-21-2012, 05:39 PM
Dumb organization.
It's starting to look like they didn't bother to read the contract before they agreed to the trade?

Slyder
03-21-2012, 08:59 PM
The Jets are just dumb. They have a temperamental qb who's feelings get hurt if you look at him cross eyed and now you're going to bring in the single largest followed player in the NFL right now to "back him up"? First interception in the PRESEASON and you'll hear the "We want Tebow" chants.

This doesn't even take into account that Tebow is as much a running back as he is a quarterback. I mean just look at the stats/tapes.... Tebow won a game completing 2 yes you read that right 2 passes for an entire 4 quarters... most qbs have that in a single drive.

This move makes 0 sense to a franchise who claims their goal is the Super Bowl every year (just ask their coach). They've got a very volatile concoction already and they just added nitroglycerine to it. This will blow up in the Jets face, I just hate, as a Raider fan, that Denver got someone like Peyton to take over for Tebow. I was looking forward to seeing the torches and pitchforks come out from all 10 Denver fans when they released Tebow in a couple years because he couldn't get the job done.