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djc27osu
12-17-2011, 01:12 PM
Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
Source: #Reds acquire Latos from #Padres. Yonder Alonso among those headed to Pads. #MLB

RiverRat13
12-17-2011, 01:21 PM
Latos instantly becomes the Reds best pitcher. Depending on who else goes, it is a good deal for the Reds if we are going for it in '12 and '13.

AWA85
12-17-2011, 01:26 PM
Early Christmas present from Walt, I have to say I am STUNNED.

Chris Sabowned
12-17-2011, 01:26 PM
I'm going to withhold criticism until I see the entire trade. I really like Yonder so I hope we didn't have to give up much of anything else in this deal.

Krawhitham
12-17-2011, 01:27 PM
He is either very good or very bad

in 27 wins he has a 1.58 ERA
in 29 loses he has a 5.95 ERA

Krawhitham
12-17-2011, 01:29 PM
Latos instantly becomes the Reds best pitcher. Depending on who else goes, it is a good deal for the Reds if we are going for it in '12 and '13.

No Cueto is

AWA85
12-17-2011, 01:29 PM
Latos just turned 24 and is not arbitration eligible yet.

AWA85
12-17-2011, 01:31 PM
Volquez and Yonder are part of the deal so far announced.

Krawhitham
12-17-2011, 01:33 PM
Volquez and Yonder are part of the deal so far announced.

I do not like Volquez but if one of the 2 young catchers are also included walt over paid

Chris Sabowned
12-17-2011, 01:36 PM
Reds acquire SD’s Mat Latos for Yonder Alonso, Brad Boxberger, Yasmani Grandal and Edinson Volquez. - According to official Reds twitter.

****. That's a lot. I was hoping Boxberger was going to be our closer this year or soon after.

Krawhitham
12-17-2011, 01:36 PM
In addition to Alonso, it will be Grandal, Boxberger, and much maligned starter Edinson Volquez, per source.

If true Walt got bent over

jhu1321
12-17-2011, 01:38 PM
Been announced by the reds and those are the players. Tough market to acquire pitching in. At least Latos will be under team control through 2015. Would have loved to have kept boxberger but there are other closers available.

RiverRat13
12-17-2011, 01:40 PM
Latos is under the Reds control for four more years. FIP over 3.00 and 3.16 over the last two years. They gave up a lot but you have to in order to get a 24 year old stud who isn't arbitration eligible yet.

Krawhitham
12-17-2011, 01:41 PM
All and all this could be a very good trade IF they can resign Votto. If the Reads have Votto then Alonso would never have a position. I do not think he can pull off LF

RedsFan_26
12-17-2011, 01:42 PM
yeah its Latos for grandal, alonso, boxberger, and volquez, which IMO is to much. I would have not included boxberger.
But does the trading of Boxberger mean that a FA closer signing is near?

tedies
12-17-2011, 01:46 PM
Latos instantly becomes the Reds best pitcher. Depending on who else goes, it is a good deal for the Reds if we are going for it in '12 and '13.

Cueto is still the ace still to me... until Latos can prove he can pitch in gabp instead of big petco, then maybe I'll entertain notions he is better than Cueto

LegallyMinded
12-17-2011, 01:49 PM
Including Boxberger in addition to Alonso and Grandel makes this seem like a slight overpay, but really, I'm quite excited Latos is joining the Reds. He's young, he's under team control for a considerable time, the advanced metrics love him (or at least very kind to him), and his road/home splits aren't so severe that we should expect a huge impact from pitching in GABP. Considering the alternatives (Gio, Jurrjens, etc.), I really like this move.

dMaus14
12-17-2011, 01:51 PM
With this deal the payroll obligations, if you use Cot's baseball contracts and MLB Trade Rumors arbitration projections is $66.8M! That's about $18M to work with! Beltran and a closer??

KYRedLeg
12-17-2011, 01:51 PM
Huh.

Hopefully trading Alonso means Walt has faith in signing Votto...

I'm glad to see Volquez gone. Trading him for a bucket of popcorn and the new Mr. Red costume would have been a beneficial trade. As long as he was on the team, I'm afraid Dusty would have penciled him in.


Not so crazy about Boxberger leaving, though.

jhu1321
12-17-2011, 01:53 PM
Love this move much more than rumored shields deal. I imagine they were asking for similar players.

Todd Gack
12-17-2011, 01:56 PM
Cueto is still the ace still to me... until Latos can prove he can pitch in gabp instead of big petco, then maybe I'll entertain notions he is better than Cueto

Cueto's barely a number 2 with his K numbers.

RiverRat13
12-17-2011, 01:58 PM
Cueto's barely a number 2 with his K numbers.

I love Cueto, but he's due for regression. Latos is a true TOP pitcher no matter what ballpark he is in.

dMaus14
12-17-2011, 01:59 PM
Cueto isn't an ace in my eyes if he can't throw for more then 180 IP!

jmac
12-17-2011, 02:01 PM
From a matchup standpoint (using STL as example),
Cueto-Latos vs Carpenter-Wainright sounds alot better than Cueto-Leake. I like Leake but I thought the Reds needed to do something to push him to a number 3 where prior to this, he was Probably our 2.
Super deal and maybe another move or two to come.

TheBigLebowski
12-17-2011, 02:01 PM
I love Mat Latos and I love the fact that we appear to be going all-in but...wow...we gave up a king's ransom. I would have been okay if it was Yonder/Grandal/Volquez/Boxberger for Latos + another piece but, straight up is a bit too much to pay in my estimation. That's a LOT of talent leaving Cincinnati. Still, I'm excited about Latos, for sure.

FireDusty
12-17-2011, 02:12 PM
Pathetic.

Jockerty should be fired.

We just cleared out the upper half of our Minor League System for 1 pitcher who comes from a pitchers park.

This organization now needs to fire the GM, the Manager, The Pitching Coach & the Hitting Coach.

Dark days ahead.

The Padres just added their future closer, their current first baseman, future all star Jorge Posada with better defene catcher.

We were absolutely raped.

nmculbreth
12-17-2011, 02:13 PM
While the Reds certain gave up a lot, I really like this deal.

Latos is a legitimate top of the rotation arm and he is under team control for the next four years, the first couple of which he should be relatively cheap. I like a lot of the guys they dealt away but realistically the only player that figured to make any sort of impact this season was Alonso and I'm not sure he'd have logged a ton of playing time without Votto getting injured.

Given the uncertainty in St. Louis and Milwaukee, this was the time to strike and the Reds have done just that. Play to win now and worry about the future tomorrow.

LegallyMinded
12-17-2011, 02:18 PM
Cueto is still the ace still to me... until Latos can prove he can pitch in gabp instead of big petco, then maybe I'll entertain notions he is better than Cueto

For what it's worth, over the course of his career, Latos has given up fewer homeruns on the road than at home. The difference is slight (.83HR/9 vs. .81HR/9), but to me, that's an indication that pitching away from Petco shouldn't be too harmful.

DocRed
12-17-2011, 02:21 PM
So we get a legit #1 pitcher who is not even arbitration eligible and gave up NO ONE who had any chance of starting next year and people are upset? Ya I hate to see Yonder go too....but do you think the Padres are just gonna give Latos away?

RedsFan_26
12-17-2011, 02:21 PM
Latos career ERA is 2.96 on the road. 3.20 at Petco. So everyone who is trying to make the case for him only being good because of Petco is wrong.

I am excited about this deal, we begged Walt for a deal, so now that he made one, why not look at the glass half full?

Captain13
12-17-2011, 02:22 PM
I'm super excited about 2012. Cueto, Latos, Leake, Arroyo and Wood or Bailey. This could be the best staff in baseball. Don't like trading the future, but man I'd take a WS this year.:thumbup:

goreds2
12-17-2011, 02:23 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111217&content_id=26190592&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

malcontent
12-17-2011, 02:24 PM
If true Walt got bent over
Agreed. Alonso and Grandal are going to be two of the best young bats in the league before long. It's going to absolutely SUCK to watch them produce, especially Grandal.

Walt's lost his touch, game's passed him by.

I guess he figured he had to empty the cupboard to get rotation help, so he did.

Horrible trade, IMO.

Todd Gack
12-17-2011, 02:26 PM
Latos career ERA is 2.96 on the road. 3.20 at Petco. So everyone who is trying to make the case for him only being good because of Petco is wrong.

I am excited about this deal, we begged Walt for a deal, so now that he made one, why not look at the glass half full?

AT&T and Dodger Stadium are both very friendly stadiums as well.

DocRed
12-17-2011, 02:30 PM
Agreed. Alonso and Grandal are going to be two of the best young bats in the league before long. It's going to absolutely SUCK to watch them produce, especially Grandal.

Walt's lost his touch, game's passed him by.

I guess he figured he had to empty the cupboard to get rotation help, so he did.

Horrible trade, IMO.

Disagree...

FireDusty
12-17-2011, 02:30 PM
Latos career ERA is 2.96 on the road. 3.20 at Petco. So everyone who is trying to make the case for him only being good because of Petco is wrong.

I am excited about this deal, we begged Walt for a deal, so now that he made one, why not look at the glass half full?

Because it a stupid deal. A horrid decision.

The Padres just made a laughingstock out of our entire organization.

The last starter they got from us that we though was no good was Harang. Volquez will win big for them......they get their future closer & maybe rookie of year candidate in Boxberger...add a switch hitting Jorge Posada type player and add a bona fide first base power source.

Maybe the most one sided trade I have ever seen.

Pathetic.

In 2 years...we will look like absolute fools.

The Reds just blew it. Jockerty has shown us that he is nothing more than a has been & the game has passed him by.

Just a horrid trade.

One injury from Latos away from us giving them half a team for absolutely nothing.

Among the worst trades in baseball history when all is said and done. This one will end up being one they write about in 20 years.

A joke.

UCBrownsfan
12-17-2011, 02:30 PM
He is either very good or very bad

in 27 wins he has a 1.58 ERA
in 29 loses he has a 5.95 ERA

Uh... what about a 2.83 ERA in no decisions?

As well for his career, in 33 of his 72 starts he's been given a run support of 2 or less.

FireDusty
12-17-2011, 02:31 PM
I'm super excited about 2012. Cueto, Latos, Leake, Arroyo and Wood or Bailey. This could be the best staff in baseball. Don't like trading the future, but man I'd take a WS this year.:thumbup:

Maybe the most uninformed ridiculous comments in history.

Latos is a solid young pitcher, but this deal just sucks.

goreds2
12-17-2011, 02:32 PM
Giving up Grandal upsets me the most. He is a Ted Simmons prototype player (Catcher).

Grandal, 23, hit .305 with 31 doubles and 14 home runs in 105 games last season, his first at the professional level, at three different Minor League stops. He is a switch-hitting catcher and was drafted by the Reds in the first round of the 2010 Draft.

Here is a comment on MLB.com: (Don't think he or she realized the other players received.)

" Screwed up on this one Padres. Trade a pitcher whose going to give you 200+ innings a year for a starter whose injury prone and one that I'm sure you're giving a 1-year deal too as well right? Way to go to the new Padres front office schmucks. "

will5979
12-17-2011, 02:36 PM
Because it a stupid deal. A horrid decision.

The Padres just made a laughingstock out of our entire organization.

The last starter they got from us that we though was no good was Harang. Volquez will win big for them......they get their future closer & maybe rookie of year candidate in Boxberger...add a switch hitting Jorge Posada type player and add a bona fide first base power source.

Maybe the most one sided trade I have ever seen.

Pathetic.

In 2 years...we will look like absolute fools.

The Reds just blew it. Jockerty has shown us that he is nothing more than a has been & the game has passed him by.

Just a horrid trade.

One injury from Latos away from us giving them half a team for absolutely nothing.

Among the worst trades in baseball history when all is said and done. This one will end up being one they write about in 20 years.

A joke.

1. Step back from the ledge.

2. Quit drinking the Kool-Aid.

3. Lighten up Francis.

4. The sun will rise tomorrow and the world isn't going to end on December 21, 2012.

5. The Reds just made a serious case for contending not only for the division, but the NL Pennant as well.

DocRed
12-17-2011, 02:38 PM
Maybe the most uninformed ridiculous comments in history.

Latos is a solid young pitcher, but this deal just sucks.

Solid? Dude is a STUD #1 pitcher....:eek:

goreds2
12-17-2011, 02:41 PM
Another comment on MLB.com:

" Latos career ERA is 2.96 on the road. 3.20 at Petco. "

Red Raindog
12-17-2011, 02:43 PM
If true Walt got bent over

+1

over paid but at least I think we got talent back

Stray
12-17-2011, 02:43 PM
Anyone know where I could see Latos' home/road splits?

That ballpark made Aaron Harang look like an All Star.

DocRed
12-17-2011, 02:44 PM
Anyone know where I could see Latos' home/road splits?

That ballpark made Aaron Harang look like an All Star.

Latos career ERA is 2.96 on the road. 3.20 at Petco.

Stray
12-17-2011, 02:44 PM
Another comment on MLB.com:

" Latos career ERA is 2.96 on the road. 3.20 at Petco. "

Nice, the first thing I think of when it comes to Padres pitchers is the park that they pitch in.

dMaus14
12-17-2011, 02:45 PM
Bill James projections for Mat Latos in 2012:

W: 15
L: 9
IP: 211
ERA: 2.99
WHIP: 1.13

That would qualify as the ace of the staff in my book!

malcontent
12-17-2011, 02:46 PM
If you think this means the Reds are "all in" for 2012...just remember who the manager still is.

DocRed
12-17-2011, 02:48 PM
Bill James projections for Mat Latos in 2012:

W: 15
L: 9
IP: 211
ERA: 2.99
WHIP: 1.13

That would qualify as the ace of the staff in my book!

Oh boy those are some terrible numbers, way too much for $400K IMO....:D

jfleur87
12-17-2011, 02:48 PM
I am sure the people who hate this trade also hated the Rolen trade. Funny how I do not recall this much admiration for the players we gave up before today. Only reason to cringe over Grandal and Alonso is if we lose Votto and Mes is a bust. Only time will tell, but in the meantime, sure is a nice surprise on a lazy Saturday. Cant wait for next year.
:beerme:

Maker_84
12-17-2011, 02:49 PM
idk what to think of this trade. His stats wont be as good playing at Great American Small Park. i think we possibly gave too much up, but none of those guys were gonna start for our team anyway. Where does Chapman fit in the rotation now?

takealeake
12-17-2011, 03:02 PM
Great deal. Of course people are going to complain about unproven prospects who have better players in front of them in the depth chart, like always, everyone thinks their crap doesn't stink.

Me? I'm tired of the Volquez experiment. I'm tired of hearing about how he's "finally" going to get his stuff together and keep hanging hope on him pitching a gem every 5th or 6th start and then going out and walking 5 plus and sucking it up wit ha 6 ERA every other start. No, I'm done with it, and I'm glad of it.

I'm also done with Alonso experiment as well. We have a franchise player at first, an NL MVP who has a few more years here at LEAST and we need the pitching to back him up. We don't need a guy who we have no idea what will do at a major league level and trying of shoehorn him out of position in left. We have Hanigan, and Mesoraco is just as good, if not better, prospect than Grandal.

You pay a lot to get a lot. The only people who would think this deal is bad are those who have been content continuing to do nothing like the past decade and hoping X prospect pans out and is the real deal. Me? I'm tired of that record, I want to win now. Pujols, Fielder, and some others are gone from the division now and it's time to stop playing around and trying to fit square pegs in round holes to win. We needed a top starter and got one. Period.

+1 for Jocketty and the Reds organization.

BamaRed
12-17-2011, 03:03 PM
Maybe the most uninformed ridiculous comments in history.

Latos is a solid young pitcher, but this deal just sucks.

Please spare us you hyperbole

webbbj
12-17-2011, 03:12 PM
Great deal. Of course people are going to complain about unproven prospects who have better players in front of them in the depth chart, like always, everyone thinks their crap doesn't stink.

Me? I'm tired of the Volquez experiment. I'm tired of hearing about how he's "finally" going to get his stuff together and keep hanging hope on him pitching a gem every 5th or 6th start and then going out and walking 5 plus and sucking it up wit ha 6 ERA every other start. No, I'm done with it, and I'm glad of it.

I'm also done with Alonso experiment as well. We have a franchise player at first, an NL MVP who has a few more years here at LEAST and we need the pitching to back him up. We don't need a guy who we have no idea what will do at a major league level and trying of shoehorn him out of position in left. We have Hanigan, and Mesoraco is just as good, if not better, prospect than Grandal.

You pay a lot to get a lot. The only people who would think this deal is bad are those who have been content continuing to do nothing like the past decade and hoping X prospect pans out and is the real deal. Me? I'm tired of that record, I want to win now. Pujols, Fielder, and some others are gone from the division now and it's time to stop playing around and trying to fit square pegs in round holes to win. We needed a top starter and got one. Period.

+1 for Jocketty and the Reds organization.

I agree. did we overpay, probably. this will be great in the short term and it may cost the team games 3 years from now but at least we become contenders now.

I dont think this deal makes us WS favorites or anything but it gives us a punchers chance. which is all you need (ie: st. louis)

LegallyMinded
12-17-2011, 03:18 PM
Fangraphs has a writeup (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/reds-finally-get-their-ace-in-mat-latos/) on the trade already, and Dave Cameron seems to think it could work out very well for both teams. Also, regarding whether Mat Latos is an ace, the article has some nice context, and notes that Latos is comparable to Jon Lester, Jered Weaver and Justin Verlander. That's certainly some "ace-like" company.

dMaus14
12-17-2011, 03:18 PM
I will say this with regards to payroll constraints:

I think payroll goes up quite a bit by Votto's walk year if we make the playoffs back to back years and maybe win a series or two each year!

FireDusty
12-17-2011, 03:23 PM
Please spare us you hyperbole
Whatever, we will be laughed at in 2 years when we have neither Votto or Alonzo and the Padres have a 15 game winner, a 40 save closer, a 30 Homer first baseman & an All Star Catcher.

Latos is a good pitcher, but until ths organization can develope guys like Latos and are forced to pay this kind of price for pitching, we have no chance to compete long term.


If Latos doesn't become a perenial Cy Young Award contender.....this trade will go down as among the very worst in franchise history.

Winning 12 to 14 games per year won't be enough when the Padres fielded half a team for that.

Latos better be a bona fide #1, bad ass...All Star Pitcher....right now....not in 2013...right now.

Anything less than 18 to 20 wins every year for the next 4 years = fail.

If he gets hurt....it will be in the top 10 worst trades in baseball history after is said and done.

RedsFan_26
12-17-2011, 03:25 PM
Because it a stupid deal. A horrid decision.

The Padres just made a laughingstock out of our entire organization.

The last starter they got from us that we though was no good was Harang. Volquez will win big for them......they get their future closer & maybe rookie of year candidate in Boxberger...add a switch hitting Jorge Posada type player and add a bona fide first base power source.

Maybe the most one sided trade I have ever seen.

Pathetic.

In 2 years...we will look like absolute fools.

The Reds just blew it. Jockerty has shown us that he is nothing more than a has been & the game has passed him by.

Just a horrid trade.

One injury from Latos away from us giving them half a team for absolutely nothing.

Among the worst trades in baseball history when all is said and done. This one will end up being one they write about in 20 years.

A joke.

No.. What makes this a bad trade is the reaction of fans like you. Freaking out because of a trade.

Reds fans begged and begged for Walt to go get someone and that is what he did. i don't know if you know this, but in order to get something, you have to give up something, its called a trade. If walt would have sat on his hands and done nothing, you would be saying the same thing.
Whats the point about freaking out because unproven minor league talent and a washed up pitcher with no control were given up to get a strong pitcher, who is under control for 4 years, and has two strong seasons under his belt.

Theres no way of telling if its going to be a horrid trade right now, because all the players we sent over havent even proven themselves yet.

So do yourself a favor and take a chill pill

BuckeyeRed27
12-17-2011, 03:26 PM
I like the trade. Latos is the type of player to take a chance on. Boxberger is probably the only guy that may have helped us this year and I don't mind it since he's a reliever. Realistically 2 of those 4 guys aren't going to pan out and we easily got the best player in the deal.

Stray
12-17-2011, 03:27 PM
It tells me Alonso didn't fit into our future plans. That makes him expendable.
Grandal is blocked by Mesoraco, he's expendable.
Boxberger is a reliever, he's expendable.
Volquez is Volquez, he's expendable.

It doesn't matter what the Padres get out of them, with the makeup of our team they were all trade assets.

TuneSquad
12-17-2011, 03:27 PM
I like getting a guy like latos no question. There is no arguing this moves makes our team better at the moment. I think the only mistake we made was boxeberger. He is the only player that we gave up in that trade that would have significantly helped us in the future imo. Everyone else we got rid of has better players infront of them. If we could have gotten a decent reliever back or maybe given up a guy like Josh Smith or a AAA reliever that isnt boxeberger. Either way, we just got a future ace. Im happy :)

DocRed
12-17-2011, 03:31 PM
Does anyone know what EV was scheduled to get in 2012? Or was he going to arb?

edit: MLB trade rumors projected EV to get $2.7 million in arbitration, so we just saved over 2+ Million that we can use towards someone else.

RedsFan_26
12-17-2011, 03:31 PM
It tells me Alonso didn't fit into our future plans. That makes him expendable.
Grandal is blocked by Mesoraco, he's expendable.
Boxberger is a reliever, he's expendable.
Volquez is Volquez, he's expendable.

It doesn't matter what the Padres get out of them, with the makeup of our team they were all trade assets.

100% true. Love this. Its very true

FireDusty
12-17-2011, 03:32 PM
Fangraphs has a writeup (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/reds-finally-get-their-ace-in-mat-latos/) on the trade already, and Dave Cameron seems to think it could work out very well for both teams. Also, regarding whether Mat Latos is an ace, the article has some nice context, and notes that Latos is comparable to Jon Lester, Jered Weaver and Justin Verlander. That's certainly some "ace-like" company.

From the article:

Latos began the 2011 season on the disabled list with shoulder bursitis – never a great thing for a pitcher – and missed a few starts in 2010 after straining his side while holding in a sneeze. That’s not exactly the type of injury you expect to recur, but the fact that he’s only averaged about 3,000 pitchers per season the last two years does mean that he hasn’t yet shown that he can hold up under the types of workloads that contenders hope to get from their aces.

With the Reds gunning for a playoff spot in 2012, the restraints are going to have to come off their prized off-season acquisition, and they’ll be forced to ask him to increase his workload, both in terms of games pitched and how many pitches he throws – he’s only crossed the 110 pitch threshold in four of his 72 career starts – in those games.

Dave Cameron - Fangraph

My Take: For what we gave up, we should have received more. This guy has "flameout" written all over him & anybody thinking we just got a guy that will make every start and go 250 innings and be an 18 to 20 game winner is stoned.

We just traded 3 future All Stars for a 12 to 14 game winnder who will make 1 trip to the DL every year.

Horrid trade.

RedsFan_26
12-17-2011, 03:34 PM
From the article:

Latos began the 2011 season on the disabled list with shoulder bursitis – never a great thing for a pitcher – and missed a few starts in 2010 after straining his side while holding in a sneeze. That’s not exactly the type of injury you expect to recur, but the fact that he’s only averaged about 3,000 pitchers per season the last two years does mean that he hasn’t yet shown that he can hold up under the types of workloads that contenders hope to get from their aces.

With the Reds gunning for a playoff spot in 2012, the restraints are going to have to come off their prized off-season acquisition, and they’ll be forced to ask him to increase his workload, both in terms of games pitched and how many pitches he throws – he’s only crossed the 110 pitch threshold in four of his 72 career starts – in those games.

Dave Cameron - Fangraph

My Take: For what we gave up, we should have received more. This guy has "flameout" written all over him & anybody thinking we just got a guy that will make every start and go 250 innings and be an 18 to 20 game winner is stoned.

We just traded 3 future All Stars for a 12 to 14 game winnder who will make 1 trip to the DL every year.

Horrid trade.

If you need to release some stress, write a letter and burn it. Nobody wants to hear your negativity.

So quit bashing everything everyone is trying to say.

Everyone has their own opinion about this trade, and their entitled to that. So leave your negativity at ur home page before you type in redszone.com

texasdave
12-17-2011, 03:35 PM
Walt's first priority was to upgrade the rotation. I think he did that in a big way. On to next item on the list. :beerme:

Stray
12-17-2011, 03:35 PM
From the article:

Latos began the 2011 season on the disabled list with shoulder bursitis – never a great thing for a pitcher – and missed a few starts in 2010 after straining his side while holding in a sneeze. That’s not exactly the type of injury you expect to recur, but the fact that he’s only averaged about 3,000 pitchers per season the last two years does mean that he hasn’t yet shown that he can hold up under the types of workloads that contenders hope to get from their aces.

With the Reds gunning for a playoff spot in 2012, the restraints are going to have to come off their prized off-season acquisition, and they’ll be forced to ask him to increase his workload, both in terms of games pitched and how many pitches he throws – he’s only crossed the 110 pitch threshold in four of his 72 career starts – in those games.

Dave Cameron - Fangraph

My Take: For what we gave up, we should have received more. This guy has "flameout" written all over him & anybody thinking we just got a guy that will make every start and go 250 innings and be an 18 to 20 game winner is stoned.

We just traded 3 future All Stars for a 12 to 14 game winnder who will make 1 trip to the DL every year.

Horrid trade.

Surely you would agree that the Reds had to make a move to take the next step, right?

We gave up a lotta guys that had no future on our team (minus Boxberger) for a young pitcher who we'll control for a while. If you want to become more than competitive you have to at some point make deals like this.

takealeake
12-17-2011, 03:36 PM
From the article:

Latos began the 2011 season on the disabled list with shoulder bursitis – never a great thing for a pitcher – and missed a few starts in 2010 after straining his side while holding in a sneeze. That’s not exactly the type of injury you expect to recur, but the fact that he’s only averaged about 3,000 pitchers per season the last two years does mean that he hasn’t yet shown that he can hold up under the types of workloads that contenders hope to get from their aces.

With the Reds gunning for a playoff spot in 2012, the restraints are going to have to come off their prized off-season acquisition, and they’ll be forced to ask him to increase his workload, both in terms of games pitched and how many pitches he throws – he’s only crossed the 110 pitch threshold in four of his 72 career starts – in those games.

Dave Cameron - Fangraph

My Take: For what we gave up, we should have received more. This guy has "flameout" written all over him & anybody thinking we just got a guy that will make every start and go 250 innings and be an 18 to 20 game winner is stoned.

We just traded 3 future All Stars for a 12 to 14 game winnder who will make 1 trip to the DL every year.

Horrid trade.

"Three future All Stars", LOL. Just like Bailey was going to be right? Just like Zach Stewart (FYI career 5.88 ERA) was a stud. Just like Brandon Claussen was a stud acquisition. Just like Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez were 10 year franchise players, and the Reds blew it by not trying to resign Dunn.

Gotta love Reds fan syndrome. Every prospect to ever step foot in a Reds organization is a future great, but meanwhile, the only reason why we made the playoffs for the first time in 15 friggin years was making a trade for a major league proven veteran who could actually play and spur us on. And doing a better move to help us than that is bad, we should just stick with the same old tired strategy of wait and see and watch as prospect after prospect turn out to *shocker* not be anywhere close to what delusional Reds fan thinks they are.

But yeah, keep singing that same song and dance, those players are sure fire All Star's, just like all the others were.

Stray
12-17-2011, 03:37 PM
So...

Cueto
Latos
Leake
Arroyo
Chapman?

texasdave
12-17-2011, 03:41 PM
So...

Cueto
Latos
Leake
Arroyo
Chapman?

I would rather have Bailey in the rotation than Arroyo. Maybe Bronson bounces back. I think that is a big question mark.

DocRed
12-17-2011, 03:41 PM
I would rather have Bailey in the rotation than Arroyo. Maybe Bronson bounces back. I think that is a big question mark.

I would too, but there is little to no chance of that as long as Dusty is the manager.

Stray
12-17-2011, 03:42 PM
I would rather have Bailey in the rotation than Arroyo. Maybe Bronson bounces back. I think that is a big question mark.

Oh wow I totally forgot about him haha

texasdave
12-17-2011, 03:43 PM
I could see Chapman being the Reds' closer when all is said and done.

malcontent
12-17-2011, 03:47 PM
I could see Chapman being the Reds' closer when all is said and done.
I think he should be the closer.

This next trade/signing (assuming it happens) could prove interesting.

Another starter pushes Chapman towards the closer role.

I want to back away from the edge, but even if I could Baker is still running the show.

Cub fan co-worker salts the wound regularly. Likes to suggest the Reds make the playoffs again and Baker gets re-signed for 3 more years.

dMaus14
12-17-2011, 03:52 PM
From the article:

Latos began the 2011 season on the disabled list with shoulder bursitis – never a great thing for a pitcher – and missed a few starts in 2010 after straining his side while holding in a sneeze. That’s not exactly the type of injury you expect to recur, but the fact that he’s only averaged about 3,000 pitchers per season the last two years does mean that he hasn’t yet shown that he can hold up under the types of workloads that contenders hope to get from their aces.

With the Reds gunning for a playoff spot in 2012, the restraints are going to have to come off their prized off-season acquisition, and they’ll be forced to ask him to increase his workload, both in terms of games pitched and how many pitches he throws – he’s only crossed the 110 pitch threshold in four of his 72 career starts – in those games.

Dave Cameron - Fangraph

My Take: For what we gave up, we should have received more. This guy has "flameout" written all over him & anybody thinking we just got a guy that will make every start and go 250 innings and be an 18 to 20 game winner is stoned.

We just traded 3 future All Stars for a 12 to 14 game winnder who will make 1 trip to the DL every year.

Horrid trade.

Seriously, I don't know where you come up with these theories from. One way organizations keep their pitchers from dead arm is by inning count and the other is by pitch count. You said he's been on the DL once each of the last two years (better than Bailey, Cueto, Volquez which is who you wanted to go with this year), yet he has still thrown over 180 IP in his first two full years as a pro. Not one of our young pitchers has gotten to there! The dude will be an ACE and when he gets run support his record will be way better!

lidspinner
12-17-2011, 03:56 PM
It's laughable at the poster who thinks grandal and volquez was gonna do anything on this team this year. Edison was on his way out regardless. Grandal is blocked by 2 studs. Box has some upside but so did a lot of relievers that normally don't pan out. Yonder is the only one that hurts, but it hurts less if Latos can give us 200 plus 15 wins. If Bronson can get back to form and we have 2 200 inning pitchers, wow, that will only help our pen.

We gave up a ton. But we got a ton. And saved some coin in the process. Did anyone expect the padres to
Give Latos to us for scrap?

improbus
12-17-2011, 04:00 PM
Latos misses bats, which is a huge factor when pitching in GABP. He averaged 8.6 and 9.2 K's per 9 innings the last two years. That 8.6 was 8th in the NL last year. The only pitchers above him were Greinke, Kershaw, Sanchez, Lee, Lincecum, Gallardo, and Garza. Those are some pretty good arms. The highest Red on that list last year? The power pitcher known as Mike Leake with 6.3 per 9. It's easy to find bats (see Rolen and Hernandez). It is not so easy to find young and cheap power arms who have already performed in the big leagues.

Red Raindog
12-17-2011, 04:11 PM
I think he should be the closer.

This next trade/signing (assuming it happens) could prove interesting.

Another starter pushes Chapman towards the closer role.

I want to back away from the edge, but even if I could Baker is still running the show.

Cub fan co-worker salts the wound regularly. Likes to suggest the Reds make the playoffs again and Baker gets re-signed for 3 more years.

Now that depresses me in many ways --- talk about a double edge sword -- winning gets you more Baker .. ugh

Coopdaddy67
12-17-2011, 04:16 PM
I'm really pleased with this trade. At the end of the day, you have to give up to talent to acquire young pitching. Yes, the Reds gave up some of their better prospects, but two of those guys were blocked at the major league level. Considering the only guy who may have helped the Reds in a significant manner this season is an RP, I can live with that.

For those that say you wouldn't have traded Alonso because Votto may not resign, you can't really worry about that right now. If you can't resign Votto, you flip him for prospects down the line. 1B is a lot easier to develop, acquire via trade, or sign through free agency than to find quality pitching.

This move, along with the free agency losses of other NL Central contenders, puts the Reds right in the thick of things. A one-two punch of Cueto and Latos sounds pretty good to me right now.

nmculbreth
12-17-2011, 04:21 PM
Latos misses bats, which is a huge factor when pitching in GABP. He averaged 8.6 and 9.2 K's per 9 innings the last two years. That 8.6 was 8th in the NL last year. The only pitchers above him were Greinke, Kershaw, Sanchez, Lee, Lincecum, Gallardo, and Garza. Those are some pretty good arms. The highest Red on that list last year? The power pitcher known as Mike Leake with 6.3 per 9. It's easy to find bats (see Rolen and Hernandez). It is not so easy to find young and cheap power arms who have already performed in the big leagues.

Not only does he miss bats, he keeps guys off of the bases. And he's under control for the next four years... which makes him an ideal target.

jmt5887
12-17-2011, 04:37 PM
This is a pretty huge trade. I'm estatic thinking about a Cueto/Latos/Leake 1-2-3 combo.

Go Reds!

HalKing
12-17-2011, 04:40 PM
Latos career road ERA is actually 3.57, not the 2.96 that keeps getting tossed around. Considering the NL west is primarily pitchers parks that may not bode well for his tenure in Great American Bandbox. Personally I think Walt overpaid, but I kind of saw that coming. Pitching is at a premium in both leagues at this point and time.

here is a link to his splits:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8529/splits;_ylt=AobKdTGZ_eykvO.lmUgpsjqFCLcF?year=care er&type=Pitching

skillymcr
12-17-2011, 04:41 PM
What is Latos' salary over the next 4 years?

HalKing
12-17-2011, 04:43 PM
If you examine those splits they certainly didn't acquire him based on his history in Busch Stadium. To be fair, a very small sample but an era of 25.31

HalKing
12-17-2011, 04:48 PM
It's laughable at the poster who thinks grandal and volquez was gonna do anything on this team this year. Edison was on his way out regardless. Grandal is blocked by 2 studs. Box has some upside but so did a lot of relievers that normally don't pan out. Yonder is the only one that hurts, but it hurts less if Latos can give us 200 plus 15 wins. If Bronson can get back to form and we have 2 200 inning pitchers, wow, that will only help our pen.

We gave up a ton. But we got a ton. And saved some coin in the process. Did anyone expect the padres to
Give Latos to us for scrap?


Curiosity is getting the best of me on this.... you refer to Grandal being blocked by two studs... are you referring to Ryan Hanigan as a stud?? He's a nice role player, but hardly a stud.

FireDusty
12-17-2011, 05:01 PM
"Three future All Stars", LOL. Just like Bailey was going to be right? Just like Zach Stewart (FYI career 5.88 ERA) was a stud. Just like Brandon Claussen was a stud acquisition. Just like Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez were 10 year franchise players, and the Reds blew it by not trying to resign Dunn.

Gotta love Reds fan syndrome. Every prospect to ever step foot in a Reds organization is a future great, but meanwhile, the only reason why we made the playoffs for the first time in 15 friggin years was making a trade for a major league proven veteran who could actually play and spur us on. And doing a better move to help us than that is bad, we should just stick with the same old tired strategy of wait and see and watch as prospect after prospect turn out to *shocker* not be anywhere close to what delusional Reds fan thinks they are.

But yeah, keep singing that same song and dance, those players are sure fire All Star's, just like all the others were.
Volquez, which I agree with in the trade, could regain his form in a big way. Boxberger will be the second closer we let go to San Diego that goes on to be a 40 save stud. (The Reds just gave away a guy that could have stepped in an closed for us for the next 5 years.). Grandal...by everyone's accounts...is among the best catching prospects of the last 15 years...he's already advanced as a hitter from both sides of the plate...but he will far exceed the defense of Posada....a border liner Hall of Famer....and Alonzo......oh my god....he is going to absolutely make this organization look enormously, grotesquely bad...if we let Votto go.

I'll say this....if we keep Votto & Latos becomes an elite...household name, top of the rotation starter.......then I'll agree that the trade was even.

It's going to take that combination of things to accurately gauage the results. We have to sign Votto and Latos needs to shine like a diamond.

No pressure.

joe51391
12-17-2011, 05:02 PM
I love this deal I thought we would have had to give up alot more to get that good of pitcher

FireDusty
12-17-2011, 05:03 PM
I love this deal I thought we would have had to give up alot more to get that good of pitcher
:laugh:
We need to be able to field enough players in the minors next year.

joe51391
12-17-2011, 05:05 PM
what are you talking about we gave up 2 minor league players who has proved nothing and 2 guys who have proved nothing well 1 did for a year.....great trade

FireDusty
12-17-2011, 05:06 PM
Box has some upside but so did a lot of relievers that normally don't pan out.

2 words.

Trevor Hoffman

dMaus14
12-17-2011, 05:11 PM
The way pitchers are being looked for this offseason, Walt couldn't have found a better return for his investment. The Yankees, Red Sox have no problem giving up prospects because they can buy hitters out of free agency. The Rangers have a loaded farm system going after Gio. Wade Davis was looking to be the only Rays pitcher moveable this offseason. Kenny Williams was being ridiculous in his demands for Danks and Floyd. So yes, by overpaying to get what we wanted, I am happy with this trade.

As for Trevor Hoffman, he was drafted as a SS and was claimed in an expansion draft by the Florida Marlins after just about two years of pitching. He then got traded to San Diego by the FLORIDA MARLINS. So when you make comments, atleast give all of the facts.

FireDusty
12-17-2011, 05:11 PM
Surely you would agree that the Reds had to make a move to take the next step, right?

We gave up a lotta guys that had no future on our team (minus Boxberger) for a young pitcher who we'll control for a while. If you want to become more than competitive you have to at some point make deals like this.

I think we could have had a better poker face.

It's just to much. If this were an NFL Trade...the Bengals would have just traded 2 first round picks, plus 2 other players.....for 1 first round pick.

It's just 2 much.

FireDusty
12-17-2011, 05:23 PM
The way pitchers are being looked for this offseason, Walt couldn't have found a better return for his investment. The Yankees, Red Sox have no problem giving up prospects because they can buy hitters out of free agency. The Rangers have a loaded farm system going after Gio. Wade Davis was looking to be the only Rays pitcher moveable this offseason. Kenny Williams was being ridiculous in his demands for Danks and Floyd. So yes, by overpaying to get what we wanted, I am happy with this trade.

As for Trevor Hoffman, he was drafted as a SS and was claimed in an expansion draft by the Florida Marlins after just about two years of pitching. He then got traded to San Diego by the FLORIDA MARLINS. So when you make comments, atleast give all of the facts.
Jim Bowden, an idiot, left him unprotected and he was taken by the Florida Marlins with the fourth pick in the first round in the 1992 expansion draft.

He went essentially straight to the Majors in 1993,and was traded midseason to the San Diego Padres during San Diego's 1993 fire sale.

During the strike-shortened 1994 season, Hoffman took over & recorded 20 saves and a 2.57 ERA & the rest is hstory.

dMaus14
12-17-2011, 05:35 PM
Jim Bowden, an idiot, left him unprotected and he was taken by the Florida Marlins with the fourth pick in the first round in the 1992 expansion draft.

He went essentially straight to the Majors in 1993,and was traded midseason to the San Diego Padres during San Diego's 1993 fire sale.

During the strike-shortened 1994 season, Hoffman took over & recorded 20 saves and a 2.57 ERA & the rest is hstory.

He essentially went straight to the majors for an expansion team! I would be willing to bet every single MLB team has a story like that! Also, this is a move where we actually get something in return. Besides, how was Jim Bowden supposed to know that Trevor Hoffman would turn out that way when he was drafted as a SS? By looking at his numbers? Then why didn't Brandon Claussen pan out? He tore up the minors!

The Rage
12-17-2011, 05:45 PM
Now dump Arroyo to free up some more cash.

jmt5887
12-17-2011, 05:46 PM
Now dump Arroyo to free up some more cash.

Not possible. No one wants to pay 15 million up front plus his contract this year for him.

Arroyo has an Untradeable contract.

The Rage
12-17-2011, 05:47 PM
Not possible. No one wants to pay 15 million up front plus his contract this year for him.

Arroyo has an Untradeable contract.

You can always find a big market team with some money take the dive. Just have to butter them up enough. He is a waste on this team and hardly a good veteren influence.

brm7675
12-17-2011, 06:20 PM
Pathetic.

Jockerty should be fired.

We just cleared out the upper half of our Minor League System for 1 pitcher who comes from a pitchers park.

This organization now needs to fire the GM, the Manager, The Pitching Coach & the Hitting Coach.

Dark days ahead.

The Padres just added their future closer, their current first baseman, future all star Jorge Posada with better defene catcher.

We were absolutely raped.

I am sorry but what are you smoking? First..Latos numbers away from Petco were better then at home. Second we gave up basically nothing. We gave up Alonso who is a 1 tool player at best and would have either been on the bench or playing out of position. We get EV off the roster and elimate any chance of Dusty using him. The other two players are minor leaguers who at best are a year away and one is looked as a closer, who are a dime a dozen. As for the young cather, how many catchers do the Reds need in their organiztion?

Great move Walt, way to get what this team needs and not screw the budget...:thumbup:

markymark69
12-17-2011, 07:19 PM
Pathetic.

Jockerty should be fired.

We just cleared out the upper half of our Minor League System for 1 pitcher who comes from a pitchers park.

This organization now needs to fire the GM, the Manager, The Pitching Coach & the Hitting Coach.

Dark days ahead.

The Padres just added their future closer, their current first baseman, future all star Jorge Posada with better defene catcher.

We were absolutely raped.

How many times have we begged for the Reds to go for it and then when they didn't do it - went to name-calling Walt? They are going for it - now - not in the future. With the possible exception of Alonso, nobody heading the other way in the trade would be a factor this year or most likely even next year for the Reds.

While we have Joey Votto, let's go for it - Albert's gone from the division, Prince could be and Braun is out 50 games - the Division and perhaps more is there for the taking and Latos without question strengthens this starting staff.

I realize that all of our prospects are future hall of famers, but this was obviously the price - it's no wonder why Walt waited this long to make a deal, I would say this package (except for Volquez) was asked for by everyone.

Krawhitham
12-17-2011, 07:23 PM
I am sorry but what are you smoking? First..Latos numbers away from Petco were better then at home.

Just because John Fay tweets it and others repeat it does not make it true

From 2009 - 20011 his whole career he has a 3.11 ERA at Petco and a 3.57 away from Petco

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/splits/_/id/30196/type/pitching3/mat-latos

Krawhitham
12-17-2011, 07:29 PM
Latos career ERA is 2.96 on the road. 3.20 at Petco. So everyone who is trying to make the case for him only being good because of Petco is wrong.

I am excited about this deal, we begged Walt for a deal, so now that he made one, why not look at the glass half full?

Where are you getting these numbers?

they are not correct

3.11 at home
3.57 on road

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/splits/_/id/30196/type/pitching3/mat-latos

He has never even had one season where his road ERA were better than his home ERA

2009 4.35 home 4.80 away
2010 2.59 home 3.14 away
2011 3.24 home 3.68 away

EDIT

The 2.96 road & 3.20 home numbers are not ERA but his SO/BB ratio for home and way

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1482/latos.png

markymark69
12-17-2011, 07:36 PM
I am sure the people who hate this trade also hated the Rolen trade. Funny how I do not recall this much admiration for the players we gave up before today. Only reason to cringe over Grandal and Alonso is if we lose Votto and Mes is a bust. Only time will tell, but in the meantime, sure is a nice surprise on a lazy Saturday. Cant wait for next year.
:beerme:

Yes, but you forget that most people want to gripe about everything because they know better. It's always "idiotic" to trade unproven talent (even if they are future hall of famers) for proven.

Of course if this trade hadn't happened it would have only been a matter of time until Alonso, Grandal and Boxberger would have been on the receiving end of the Redszone experts criticisms. Quotes such as "man we could have had Mat Latos for those guys," Walt's an idiot, the game has passed him by, etc., etc."

In reality, people can't have it both ways, no matter how many women and democrats say so.

TheBigLebowski
12-17-2011, 07:54 PM
Thought about the trade for a long time today. I think we overpaid. Think about the haul SD received for Latos in comparison to what the Diamonbacks got for a much more proven commodity in Dan Haren. I know Latos' age and contract have to be considered as well, but just speaking in terms of the caliber of prospects, the Fathers hit a home run here. 3 of our last 4 first round picks and a guy with TOR stuff albeit the mental makeup of eggplant lasagna.

Still, if someone came to me and asked me if I wanted to reverse the deal, I wouldn't do it. I fully prepared myself for losing Alonso, who is going to rake on the ML level for a long time and Grandal, whom I believe is the 2nd best C prospect in baseball behind our own Devin Mesorasco. Boxberger is nasty and conceivably could be closing this year, so I didn't really understand his inclusion....but Latos has electric, ace-level stuff and could anchor this rotation for years. Hopefully with the money we saved we can go out and get an LF. We do that, and I will feel VERY good about 2012.

malcontent
12-17-2011, 07:56 PM
One point: Grandal wasn't entirely blocked by Mesoraco.

You need two catchers to begin with, and the Reds could have used one or both part-time at first.

For, you know, when Votto signs with the Dodgers or Halos in a couple years.

TuneSquad
12-17-2011, 08:01 PM
Latos has a 1.93 era in 2 starts at GABP. Not sure it tells us too much, but that stat sure isnt negative

malcontent
12-17-2011, 08:02 PM
Twitter / @Buster_ESPN
First rival evaluator I spoke with LOVES the trade for the Padres: "San Diego made an absolute killing with that deal."

Fresh_medium

Twitter / @Buster_ESPN
E-mail from second rival evaluator (and don't kill the messenger): "Overall big win for Padres and huge gamble for Reds."

Fresh_medium

Twitter / @Buster_ESPN
Observation of third rival evaluator: "The only way I'm making that trade for Latos is if he has [perfect] mound makeup. And he doesn't."

I guess I should be glad 93% of RZ loves it.

Krawhitham
12-17-2011, 08:03 PM
Buster Olney
4th scout on Latos deal: Possible strong No. 2 starter, with significant risk. This evaluator says CIN gave up 3 of their top 5 prospects.


https://twitter.com/#!/Buster_ESPN/status/148205919812071425



Keith Law

he has already had one bout of shoulder trouble, and will, at least for the moment, be working for one of the most egregious arm-shredders in the game, Dusty Baker.


http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/law_keith/id/7363276/mlb-mat-latos-good-addition-cincinnati-reds

Krawhitham
12-17-2011, 08:07 PM
For, you know, when Votto signs with the Dodgers or Halos in a couple years.

Pretty sure the Halos already have a 1st baseman

TuneSquad
12-17-2011, 08:10 PM
Just some interesting other stats...
Latos era @ NL central parks
Wrigley- 1 start 2.57 era
Minute Maid- 2 starts 3.14 era
PNC park- 2 starts 2.77 era
Busch- 2 starts 25.31 era

Again, might not tell us much. I just thought it was interesting, especially the Cars stadium stats

TuneSquad
12-17-2011, 08:12 PM
whoops... and Miller park 1 start 6.35 era

Krawhitham
12-17-2011, 08:20 PM
Is this a done deal or is it pending physicals?

Pony Boy
12-17-2011, 08:21 PM
The negative reaction to the trade is so silly. People are acting like Grandal and Alonso are sure-fire all stars, but Latos is a sure-fire flame out. It is Latos that has proven himself in the majors, not Grandal and Alonso. if you want a TOR starter that is 24 and under club control for another half-decade this is what it costs. We have a shot now (assuming we add a legit LF, which we will). So enjoy.

malcontent
12-17-2011, 08:28 PM
Pretty sure the Halos already have a 1st baseman
DOH!

Krawhitham
12-17-2011, 08:34 PM
The negative reaction to the trade is so silly. People are acting like Grandal and Alonso are sure-fire all stars, but Latos is a sure-fire flame out. It is Latos that has proven himself in the majors, not Grandal and Alonso. if you want a TOR starter that is 24 and under club control for another half-decade this is what it costs. We have a shot now (assuming we add a legit LF, which we will). So enjoy.

If the Reds can resign Votto past 2013 it is a good deal, if not then it is a bad deal

Alonso was blocked
Grandal was blocked or just not needed because of Mez
Volquez was junk
Boxberger was nothing special 91-93 mph fastball that touches 94 on occasion, a 78-80 mph curveball,

The Blue Chip is Alonso and he is no guarantee to be a super star

harmony
12-17-2011, 08:35 PM
Pathetic.

Jockerty should be fired.

We just cleared out the upper half of our Minor League System for 1 pitcher who comes from a pitchers park.

This organization now needs to fire the GM, the Manager, The Pitching Coach & the Hitting Coach.

Dark days ahead.

The Padres just added their future closer, their current first baseman, future all star Jorge Posada with better defene catcher.

We were absolutely raped.
Don't trivialize rape.

Mr Larkin
12-17-2011, 08:37 PM
Worth the risk.

malcontent
12-17-2011, 08:41 PM
The money saved in this deal will look GREAT when Walt is able to re-sign Cordero to a 2-year.

:bang:

Eric the Red
12-17-2011, 09:56 PM
Upon initially hearing of the trade, I thought the Reds overpaid mightily. But after seeing Latos' stats and reading about his potential I think this is a great move by Walt. Sure it was a lot to give up and I really liked Alonso and Grandal but for this team to win in 2012 and 2013 while we have Votto, the deal had to be made.

sdwagers
12-17-2011, 09:56 PM
How many number one picks pan out ?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?query_type=franch_round&draft_type=junreg&team_ID=CIN&draft_round=1

needless to say - you don't keep them all.

Votto is the centerpiece. We have him 2 years ... if that. 1 year for sure. You push all in and go for broke this year. This team has offense.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/batting

top two in the NL, and number one just lost its big gun.

anyone drinkin Jim Bowden's kool-aid on this trade needs to realize that he loves five-tool players and leatherpants. Don Gullett was literally given a flat tire to patch every year for a pitching staff under Jimbo. Bryan Price, Ted Power, and Mario Soto have been tremendous for this staff. Latos has the potential to be the next Halladay.

Yes the Josh Hamilton and Frank Robinson deals sting... but the is no true reward without risk.

Literati
12-17-2011, 10:08 PM
I feel the Reds got robbed. Petco is a majorly pitcher friendly park - just look at Harang's turn-around. Just watch Volquez come back to his old self this season. Maybe Heisey in left (though doesn't have Alonso's power), but what are the Reds going to do at closer now?

Cardinal_Fan
12-17-2011, 10:16 PM
You've got to take risks sometimes. I like this deal for the Reds. You needed a top tier pitcher that's cheap and under your control for a few years, you got that through this trade. And, you didn't desperately need the players you sent away. Finally, you might actually do well this year and just maybe start selling out games on a regular basis. You do that and your payroll goes up and maybe you've got a shot at Votto.

You have to overpay sometimes. We needed a shortstop so we overpaid for Furcal.

I dunno I like this deal for the Reds.

sdwagers
12-17-2011, 10:21 PM
I feel the Reds got robbed. Petco is a majorly pitcher friendly park - just look at Harang's turn-around. Just watch Volquez come back to his old self this season. Maybe Heisey in left (though doesn't have Alonso's power), but what are the Reds going to do at closer now?


Latos split stats for last year Home/Away dispute the PetCo effect ...

Split G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR SB CS BB SO SO/BB BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip tOPS+ sOPS+
Home 15 375 342 38 79 11 4 8 15 4 26 91 3.50 .231 .284 .357 .641 122 6 1 2 4 2 4 .287 96 82
Away 16 424 379 44 89 17 5 8 10 4 36 94 2.61 .235 .299 .369 .668 140 2 0 6 3 1 1 .289 104 82

Eric the Red
12-17-2011, 10:22 PM
I feel the Reds got robbed. Petco is a majorly pitcher friendly park - just look at Harang's turn-around. Just watch Volquez come back to his old self this season. Maybe Heisey in left (though doesn't have Alonso's power), but what are the Reds going to do at closer now?

Sure Petco is a pitcher friendly park but Latos' stats have nothing to do with pitching in Petco. Check out his home/away splits. His numbers are virtually the same whether he pitched at Petco or elsewhere.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8529/splits;_ylt=AqQe5kIiVQPSBuoK_ZiZU_mFCLcF?year=care er&type=Pitching

He can hit 97 with the fastball and sits at 95+, strikes out nearly one batter per inning pitched and just turned 24 years old. He is a top of the rotation talent this team needed badly.

Literati
12-17-2011, 10:47 PM
I guess I'm just hung up on the Boxberger part of the deal - the Reds' closer situation isn't looking too good......

Hillsdale87
12-17-2011, 11:19 PM
I think both teams did well. It hurts to lose Alonso and Grandal, but they were both blocked for a couple years minimum. If Mesoraco pans out, Grandal never would have made it to the majors with the Reds. I like Boxberger too, but he's just a relief pitcher. In the end, I think the Reds had to overpay a little bit, but in overpaying they dramatically improved the major league roster for the next 2 years at least. Even though Alonso was going to start, nobody knew if he could play outfield. By making the trade, the Reds lose some offense, but improve dramatically on defense and pitching. They have to be considered the favorites in the NL Central now. Alot of people wanted Shields. He would have required the same assets and costs $10MM more. Now the Reds have some money to spend on offense or another pitcher.

Also, losing Alonso hurts because he had the potential to take Votto's spot at first base in 2014. But Soto just had a great year in AA. He needs more seasoning, but he could very well be the answer in 2014.

The DARK
12-17-2011, 11:27 PM
Walt/Dusty are too traditional to go closer-by-committee. With Cordero's contract off the books, we either resign him for cheaper or find someone else on the market.

Definitely a signing that sets us up to contend this year and next, though. Latos / Cueto / Leake / Bailey / Arroyo with Wood, Chapman, and recent signings in AAA to back us up is a good look for the rotation, since we no longer have to worry about Volquez being out of options. At this point though, LF looks like a pretty open audition. Heisey is probably the #1 until further notice, though a FA signing would put us on the map like it did for the Brewers last season.

There's no doubt that we gave up a lot here. But a lot of the pieces were in areas where we have excess, and we got one of the few reliable starters on the market. Win for the Padres, uncertain yet for the Reds.

malcontent
12-17-2011, 11:51 PM
I see Jocketty re-signing Cordero to provide 9th inning drama for another two years.

Oh, and Cody Ross as your big FA acquisition to play LF and bat cleanup.

World Series, here we come! Thank you, Walt!

R_Webb18
12-17-2011, 11:52 PM
will ppl stop saying we got robbed? we all know we did. the points is we have other people and we got what we wanted.

Tadasimha
12-18-2011, 12:00 AM
will ppl stop saying we got robbed? we all know we did. the points is we have other people and we got what we wanted.

If the Reds got what they wanted, they didn't get robbed.

Proven SP for two unproven position players, an unproven relief pitcher and a head case SP everyone is glad to see go.

I think Padres fans are feeling more like the Reds stole from them!

malcontent
12-18-2011, 12:06 AM
will ppl stop saying we got robbed? we all know we did. the points is we have other people and we got what we wanted.
I love it. Half of RZ is saying we overpaid, but that it needed to be done. Before this golden window of opportunity closes.

Total BS. Baker is still the manager. We needed to ride out another poor half or whole season and get someone decent in here. Someone with a clue. Not empty the cupboard now.

And Latos is only going to be cheap this year. He'll get paid well in his arb years. The Reds just tossed away a ton of inexpensive performance for ONE cheap year of Latos. And they couldn't afford to do that.

R_Webb18
12-18-2011, 01:02 AM
I love it. Half of RZ is saying we overpaid, but that it needed to be done. Before this golden window of opportunity closes.

Total BS. Baker is still the manager. We needed to ride out another poor half or whole season and get someone decent in here. Someone with a clue. Not empty the cupboard now.

And Latos is only going to be cheap this year. He'll get paid well in his arb years. The Reds just tossed away a ton of inexpensive performance for ONE cheap year of Latos. And they couldn't afford to do that.

lol at ur post. ppl are so clueless

Reds
12-18-2011, 01:06 AM
I think we overpaid and the Padres got the better of the deal. I like the move though.

powersackers
12-18-2011, 01:17 AM
Great job Walt! I knew you could do it.

Alonso, you're a great guy, good luck - go get 'em!

EV: Later

Boxberger: Every organization has a handful of his skillset in the pipeline.

Grandal: Sorry Mes is likely better or comparable enough.

If we win the NL Central the next two years this trade will be an afterthought for me.

gedred69
12-18-2011, 02:06 AM
Reading all the posts, having my own opinion, I see it like this. I would have wanted to give up another beside Boxberger. I said in the past (as others have) when the Reds drafted Alonso he was future trade bait. With the emergence of Mesoraco, Grandal became the same. (Not to mention the Reds have other interesting Catching prospects in the pipe). I tired of Volquez. He made the Hamilton trade look very bad, Reds should have insisted on the yet un-proven Wilson over the un-proven Volquez. If Latos can be all the pundits think he can,we will all be happy and our opinions moot.

64red
12-18-2011, 02:37 AM
Reading all the posts, having my own opinion, I see it like this. I would have wanted to give up another beside Boxberger. I said in the past (as others have) when the Reds drafted Alonso he was future trade bait. With the emergence of Mesoraco, Grandal became the same. (Not to mention the Reds have other interesting Catching prospects in the pipe). I tired of Volquez. He made the Hamilton trade look very bad, Reds should have insisted on the yet un-proven Wilson over the un-proven Volquez. If Latos can be all the pundits think he can,we will all be happy and our opinions moot.
I think you sum it up very well. The division has presented us with this opportunity and we have to take advantage, even if we did over pay a bit.
I hope the left field/rh power bat is addressed soon as well. I think that a coaching staff shake up would put us over the top, but I don't want to look greedy.

R_Webb18
12-18-2011, 02:50 AM
am i missing something or are the so called "experts" morons? i mean look at this link http://bleacherreport.com/articles/987208-mlb-trades-mat-latos-to-cincinnati-for-the-worst-deal-of-the-offseason

it says Latos for Yonder Alonso would have been a good deal; Latos for Alonso and Edinson Volquez would be too much.

i mean do these people even watch mat latos? tbh i have not but i keep hearing he's a number 2 or maybe a 1. id like to know how you could only get alonso for a 1 or 2. they seem to make it sound like hes a 4-5. also why does espn keep making it sound like edinson v is the best piece of this trade? did anyone watch this guy? he was trash. I'm glad i don't have to watch that mess anymore.

did we over pay? i say yes but i also think it was worth it.

dMaus14
12-18-2011, 03:08 AM
I view it like this:

Grandal and Alonso were givens for what we were going to have to give up to get Latos;

Moving Volquez was a pure payroll role, he was due to make about $2.6M and thats a lot for an injury prone, undefined role that he is going into 2012;

So in order for the Padres to take Volquez we had to throw in another good prospect which is why I think Boxberger was thrown in;

That's just how I look at the trade!

DGullett35
12-18-2011, 03:10 AM
We may have overpaid but we had to. That was the only was we were going to get a good starter. IMHO the only player I'm going to miss is Yonder. the guy can flat out hit. Volquez was done. Boxberger could be the next Trevor Hoffman or the next John Rocker, and Grandal had to go since Mes is going to be our catcher for the forseeable future. Good deal by Walt. Im excited to see what he does next.

2012 rotation
Cueto
Latos
Leake
Bailey- wouldnt be surprised if hes traded and we get another starter
Arroyo-Prob will be 3rd after Latos but hope hes put in the 5th spot

That leaves us Wood and Chapman(whos probably at least till the middle of the season away until he can start) I could see us getting Saunders then packaging bailey and mabey Stubbs for LF help and a Closer(Or mabey CoCo comes back for cheap.)

malcontent
12-18-2011, 03:12 AM
lol at ur post. ppl are so clueless
Look. I know I'm in the minority on this one.

But tell me, exactly how can people be pleased with a trade that they know they got jobbed on?

:confused:

One other thing. We all were frustrated with Volquez. And he did have only the one (half) good year. But he still has the stuff, after TJ surgery, to be successful. What if the change of scenery does it for him? What will this trade look like then??

By definition if you overpay for something, it can't be worth it.

dMaus14
12-18-2011, 03:47 AM
Look. I know I'm in the minority on this one.

But tell me, exactly how can people be pleased with a trade that they know they got jobbed on?

:confused:

One other thing. We all were frustrated with Volquez. And he did have only the one (half) good year. But he still has the stuff, after TJ surgery, to be successful. What if the change of scenery does it for him? What will this trade look like then??

By definition if you overpay for something, it can't be worth it.

Volquez could possibly "regain" his ability to pitch at comfy Petco Park but not at GABP. So yea you can take him and have him become who we thought he was when we trade Hamilton for him. But he's too much of a risk for $2.6M that he probably will get in arbitration.

That aside, every other big time pitcher that is available is going to get a Alonso, Grandal, prospect type return. The prospect we gave up is a RP! Yes he may become a CL but not this year! Alonso is a 1B and won't be playing 1B for the Reds until 2014! Grandal is probably as good as Mesoraco but we have Mesoraco and Hanigan, who is an above average back up.

Matt Garza will cost top prospects and about $8M

Gio Gonzalez will cost about the same package and is arb eligible this year

John Danks will cost fewer prospects but will cost $7.6M for ONE year

Gavin Floyd will cost fewer prospects but is a #3-4 and only controlled for two years

Jair Jurrjens - we don't have what they are looking for because other than SP we are looking for the same!

James Shields - see Matt Garza!

Wade Davis, uh HELL NO!

We dealt from our organizational strength = position prospects! So for the cost of prospects, with the controllable years, and salary for 2012! So based off of this, clearly a WIN!

Red Raindog
12-18-2011, 07:08 AM
Yes, but you forget that most people want to gripe about everything because they know better. It's always "idiotic" to trade unproven talent (even if they are future hall of famers) for proven.

Of course if this trade hadn't happened it would have only been a matter of time until Alonso, Grandal and Boxberger would have been on the receiving end of the Redszone experts criticisms. Quotes such as "man we could have had Mat Latos for those guys," Walt's an idiot, the game has passed him by, etc., etc."

In reality, people can't have it both ways, no matter how many women and democrats say so.

I think you should include republicans too -- (think tax cuts with spending more via wars & drug benefits) -- :eek:

for the rest of your post --- pretty much spot on

improbus
12-18-2011, 07:58 AM
There are two reasons to have organizational depth.
1) to bring young cheap players to the big leagues
2) to trade for major league ready talent
The Reds are thinking about winning now and finding a way to resign Votto. Is Votto going to want to stay in an organization that is always thinking about "prospects" and "playing for the future?"

We have been complaining about the Reds not getting top of the rotation pitchers for as long as I've been a Reds fan. We have never had a problem finding bats. I think it was a good trade.

Farnsie
12-18-2011, 11:43 AM
Holy Hell! Christmas came early this year. Love it.

Stray
12-18-2011, 12:10 PM
The more I think about this trade the more I love it.

I wanted Alonso to fit into our future plans, but I totally understand why the organization feels otherwise. Grandal was blocked so who really cares. Volquez...okay...and Boxberger is a reliever. Sure he could end up being a dominant closer, but he's a reliever prospect.

This tells me we want to win now, and that is a good thing. So many fans have been complaining for a while how we won't do this, and when we do all they can say is that we were dumb to do it.

The NL Central is weakened this year. We have an offense (albeit inconsistent) that will be close to the lead in runs scored in the NL, we have a legit TOR starter in Cueto, and now we've added another in Latos. Gimmie some more bullpen arms and I'm feelin pretty damn good.

UPRedsFan
12-18-2011, 12:18 PM
This is a fabulous trade. Exactly what all of us have been hoping for as long as I can remember. Getting a legitimate horse who can run out there against other teams' best in the playoffs and give us a chance to win. He's only just turned 24 this month which means he's still learning and will get better, and he's under control for 3 or 4 years?

Good move Walt. Let's just hope Matt stays healthy!

LegallyMinded
12-18-2011, 12:24 PM
One other thing. We all were frustrated with Volquez. And he did have only the one (half) good year. But he still has the stuff, after TJ surgery, to be successful. What if the change of scenery does it for him? What will this trade look like then??



If the change of scenery "does it" for Volquez, it doesn't change what this trade looks like for the Reds at all. If getting any value out of Volquez requires a change of scenery, then the Reds were never going to get anything out of him, and so trading him was the only reasonable course of action.

Crumbley
12-18-2011, 04:02 PM
Definitely a killer package for SD, tons of talent. What I love about the deal is that outside of Boxberger, it doesn't hurt the MLB roster. Alonso would have had to OPS .850-.900 as a rookie to have value in LF with his defense. Now he gets to play his position. Grandal was a stud with nowhere to play, Mesoraco is a rookie and Hanigan is locked up. Boxberger was my choice to replace Cordero as closer, that stings. But according to Jocketty, SD would have walked away without him being in the deal. Had to be done. Volquez has STUFF but a career of nothingness outside of 2007. Maybe another year post Tommy John cures him. I don't know. I do know I was done with him.

FireDusty
12-18-2011, 04:32 PM
I think you sum it up very well. The division has presented us with this opportunity and we have to take advantage, even if we did over pay a bit.
I hope the left field/rh power bat is addressed soon as well. I think that a coaching staff shake up would put us over the top, but I don't want to look greedy.

Genius.

Empty the high minors for a chance at 88-74 and getting swept in the first round of the playoffs.

texasdave
12-18-2011, 04:43 PM
Juan Francisco and Todd Frazier must have next to no trading value.

FireDusty
12-18-2011, 05:32 PM
Juan Francisco and Todd Frazier must have next to no trading value.
Just shows you how stats at the minor league level don't mean anything. Anybody that knows anything knows that Alonzo is going to be Votto west coast & that Grandal is going to be Posada with a better glove.

We don't even know if Mesaraco is the real deal!

Horrible trade that only proves that the organization has no faith in the coaches ability to gleen better results from our own players.

No biggie, we'll just clear out the minors every couple years when we need a 12-14 game winner with shoulder issues and maturity problems.

FireDusty
12-18-2011, 05:34 PM
This is a fabulous trade. Exactly what all of us have been hoping for as long as I can remember. Getting a legitimate horse who can run out there against other teams' best in the playoffs and give us a chance to win. He's only just turned 24 this month which means he's still learning and will get better, and he's under control for 3 or 4 years?

Good move Walt. Let's just hope Matt stays healthy!
Fan pleaser for sure.

Horrible baseball decision.

R_Webb18
12-18-2011, 05:46 PM
Fan pleaser for sure.

Horrible baseball decision.

are we better today?

malcontent
12-18-2011, 07:43 PM
are we better today?
No. Not when you step back and look at the big picture.

Seriously. Does anyone really think this team (with...keep your fingers crossed...Cordero and Kubel) can make the playoffs, much less go anywhere if it does?

With Baker as manager?

And if by some miracle it did, are you all itching for another 2 or 3 years of him???

malcontent
12-18-2011, 07:49 PM
If the change of scenery "does it" for Volquez, it doesn't change what this trade looks like for the Reds at all. If getting any value out of Volquez requires a change of scenery, then the Reds were never going to get anything out of him, and so trading him was the only reasonable course of action.
Good point.

But when was the last time any team did a 4-for-1 trade where the 4 included a 28-year-old former All Star and 3 first-round picks?

malcontent
12-18-2011, 07:54 PM
Fan pleaser for sure.

Horrible baseball decision.

Agreed. And I'm guessing it won't take all that long to become quite apparent.

malcontent
12-18-2011, 08:02 PM
Matthew Pouliot from HBT said it well:

Still, this looks like a pretty classic overpay from a frustrated GM in Walt Jocketty. The Reds’ plans had been stifled all winter to date. Now Jocketty has resorted to using the Reds’ two-best trade chips, their still tantalizing reclamation project and one of the game’s best relief prospects, all in the same deal.

The Rage
12-18-2011, 08:32 PM
The Reds had no choice but to give up Grandel and Alonso. Volquez is a roid created creature. Nothing more or less. A throw in so the rebuilding Padres could fill a spot. Without it, he can't throw above 92mph to control the baseball. Maybe he will put up "decent" numbers at that park, it made Harang look alot better than he really was. Bailey would probably look like a stud there as well.

Box being in the deal hurt. Yeah, maybe hurt bad. He has a live arm and weakens are pen for 2011, but other teams were after Latos and we had to sweeten the pot to complete the deal.

FireDusty
12-18-2011, 10:17 PM
Good point.

But when was the last time any team did a 4-for-1 trade where the 4 included a 28-year-old former All Star and 3 first-round picks?

Never...this is the first time in baseball history.

malcontent
12-18-2011, 10:47 PM
I'm afraid that the Cardinals winning the WS last year made it all too personal for Jocketty. He probably felt had to go for broke before Votto (probably) leaves.

Instead, he should have followed the Hippocratic Oath: "First, do no harm."

nmculbreth
12-18-2011, 11:09 PM
I'm afraid that the Cardinals winning the WS last year made it all too personal for Jocketty. He probably felt had to go for broke before Votto (probably) leaves.

Instead, he should have followed the Hippocratic Oath: "First, do no harm."

Exactly what "harm" was done here?

The Reds FO sensed that the club's best opportunity to win is the next few years and traded surplus parts to give the team the best opportunity to win in that window. The 2012 team is undoubtedly better than it looked like it would be a week ago.

I just don't understand all of this hand wringing about what may happen three or four years down the line.

Ohayou
12-18-2011, 11:39 PM
No. Not when you step back and look at the big picture.

Seriously. Does anyone really think this team (with...keep your fingers crossed...Cordero and Kubel) can make the playoffs, much less go anywhere if it does?

With Baker as manager?

And if by some miracle it did, are you all itching for another 2 or 3 years of him???

Yes. Next?

Mutaman
12-19-2011, 12:22 AM
1. Was this team going to contend next year with Alonzo in left (or on the bench), Volquez in the starting rotation (or at Louisvile), Grandel at Louisville, and Boxberger as a set up man?

Answer - No.

2. Will this team contend next year with Latos in the starting rotaion?

Answer - Yes.

Nuff said.

Now go out and find a left handed batter.

Mutaman
12-19-2011, 12:35 AM
With Baker as manager?

And if by some miracle it did, are you all itching for another 2 or 3 years of him???

So we should root against the boys being successful next year because if they are, we will be stuck longer with Baker? What am I missing here?

Kingspoint
12-19-2011, 01:06 AM
In any deal, you always want the best player...present or future. Seems like we got that. You don't win a World Series without having one of the best pitchers. Grandel, Alonso, Volquez nor Boxberger is that person, or could be that person. Latos can be. The REDS vaulted themselves to another level. The organization was hitting-strong and pitching-weak. They changed that.

lidspinner
12-19-2011, 08:16 AM
Curiosity is getting the best of me on this.... you refer to Grandal being blocked by two studs... are you referring to Ryan Hanigan as a stud?? He's a nice role player, but hardly a stud.

yes...Ryan is not a back up....he might not be the stud in the mold of Mike Piazza in his prime but Ryan plays great D and his pitchers love him...not to mention he knows how to hit behind his runners and move them over for the top of the lineup...about the only time you see Ryan swinging away is with 2 outs and bases empty.....you have to be smart to be considered a stud and I see to many people annoint these young catchers studs without seeing them perform....I watched Yasmani more than once this year hit lazy fly balls to left when he had runners in scoring position with less than 2 outs.....I know alot of that depends on the situation, but a smart hitter just dont do that....Ryan at least would hit a grounder to right side hole and move that guy over to 3rd or score the guy from 3rd......and to me that means a ton more than having potential......

you throw Mes in with Ryan and we have our catchers for foreseeable future minus any injuries...Yasmani very well could be our catcher in 2016 and if thats how far anyone is looking then you might have a argument there, but I am not looking 5 years ahead....

FireDusty
12-19-2011, 08:47 AM
1. Was this team going to contend next year with Alonzo in left (or on the bench), Volquez in the starting rotation (or at Louisvile), Grandel at Louisville, and Boxberger as a set up man?

Answer - No.

2. Will this team contend next year with Latos in the starting rotaion?

Answer - Yes.

Nuff said.

Now go out and find a left handed batter.
Jesus Christ.....do you not realize that baseball will be played for years after the 2012 season.

Are you that short sighted?

FireDusty
12-19-2011, 08:54 AM
are we better today?

In theory, Yes.

I can't argue that.

I'm just think we could have won the NL Central, considering what is going on around the division, without torpedoing our future.

If we had done nothing and just allowed things to play out, we could have been bursting from the seams with trade chips that were even more credentialed after the season played out.

But yes, for right now....2012....we look very tough. If Latos wins 18 games, I'll be on the road to being OK with this. If Mesoracco shows that he's the real deal, I'll be even further along.....however....even with that happening...I want to see Votto signed. To me..when you trade Alonzo....you are saying to the fans "we will keep Votto".

Hal#23Fan
12-19-2011, 09:29 AM
I understand that Grandal, Alonso, and Boxberger were on the outside looking in for playing time, but they were also one injury away from being an important member of our team. Matt Latos better be a Cy Young contender for this trade to make me a believer.

Wtf Walt?

swaisuc
12-19-2011, 10:02 AM
Look. I know I'm in the minority on this one.

But tell me, exactly how can people be pleased with a trade that they know they got jobbed on?

:confused:

One other thing. We all were frustrated with Volquez. And he did have only the one (half) good year. But he still has the stuff, after TJ surgery, to be successful. What if the change of scenery does it for him? What will this trade look like then??

By definition if you overpay for something, it can't be worth it.

I disagree with you. The goal is not to "win" trades. The goal is to win divisions, playoff games, and the world series. Latos puts us much closer to accomplishing those goals than the whole collection of guys we gave up.

I think the Padres got more overall value, but for the most part, they were the right guys to trade. They're all worth more to SD than they would have been to us. Alonso was probably going to pinch hit most of 2012. Grandal is completely blocked by Mes for the near future. Volquez hasn't been effective in 3 years. Box was probably someone they really targeted, but did you really want a rookie closer on a team built to win now?

RiverRat13
12-19-2011, 10:27 AM
Jesus Christ.....do you not realize that baseball will be played for years after the 2012 season.

Are you that short sighted?

Do you not realize Mat Latos will be a Red beyond 2012?

LegallyMinded
12-19-2011, 10:28 AM
Here's (http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/how-will-latos-pitch-in-cincinnati/) another take on the trade, this time regarding how Latos will fare in Cincinnati. It's written from a fantasy perspective, but the important points for a Reds fan come in this paragraph, and provide plenty of reasons to be happy about this deal:


At look at Latos’ career splits shows that he may not have experienced any benefit from pitching at Petco. While he pitched slightly better at home, the difference is miniscule. Nearly all of Latos’ peripherals remained consistent no matter where he was pitching. Shockingly, Latos’ HR/FB% was actually higher at Petco than it was on the road (8.3 to 7.8). As Dave Cameron pointed out in his piece on this subject, Latos has actually thrown more innings on the road over his career than at home (244.1 to 185.1). Considering those factors, it seems unlikely that Latos really benefitted from pitching in Petco.

RiverRat13
12-19-2011, 10:28 AM
They're all worth more to SD than they would have been to us.

There's the money quote.

goreds2
12-19-2011, 10:58 AM
A lot of Reds talk on MLB Network RADIO today (SiriusXM). Walt is going to be on in the next 10 minutes.

http://www.siriusxm.com/mlbnetworkradio

bounty37h
12-19-2011, 11:12 AM
Not sure how to feel about this one; seems we def overpaid but it was for a true need for the team, so need to see how Latos comes in and performs before judgement can come either way (easy for us fans to do).

malcontent
12-19-2011, 01:56 PM
Grandal is completely blocked by Mes for the near future.
I disagree that Grandal was completely blocked by Mesoraco.

As I said before, you need two catchers to begin with, and both would have had the bats to play first part-time. That makes sense to me. Otherwise, the guy gets ground down doing 85% of the catching. A semi-platoon keeps them both fresh and their hitting doesn't suffer.

Instead, we're now going to be hostage to Votto and his 20+ million per contract. On an 80 (if that) million dollar team.

I wanted to see if Alonso's LH bat would more than cover for his shortcomings defensively in LF. But I would have been OK with an Alonso trade for a nice piece of the puzzle, so long as Jocketty had acquired another legitimate LHH. Now the Reds have lost TWO fine bats from the left side (Grandal a SH, of course), and when Votto leaves they'll have Bruce and 20 RHH. Everyone will be able to relax then as there won't be a problem splitting up the lefty.

brm7675
12-19-2011, 02:22 PM
I understand that Grandal, Alonso, and Boxberger were on the outside looking in for playing time, but they were also one injury away from being an important member of our team. Matt Latos better be a Cy Young contender for this trade to make me a believer.

Wtf Walt?

Grandal is at least 1 year maybe 2 or 3 from even close to being ready for ML duty. Boxberger is like any relieaver...easily replaceable. Alonso is a 2 dimisinoal player who is better suited to DH given his limited abilities in teh field.

brm7675
12-19-2011, 02:24 PM
I disagree that Grandal was completely blocked by Mesoraco.

As I said before, you need two catchers to begin with, and both would have had the bats to play first part-time. That makes sense to me. Otherwise, the guy gets ground down doing 85% of the catching. A semi-platoon keeps them both fresh and their hitting doesn't suffer.

Instead, we're now going to be hostage to Votto and his 20+ million per contract. On an 80 (if that) million dollar team.

I wanted to see if Alonso's LH bat would more than cover for his shortcomings defensively in LF. But I would have been OK with an Alonso trade for a nice piece of the puzzle, so long as Jocketty had acquired another legitimate LHH. Now the Reds have lost TWO fine bats from the left side (Grandal a SH, of course), and when Votto leaves they'll have Bruce and 20 RHH. Everyone will be able to relax then as there won't be a problem splitting up the lefty.

There is exactly ZERO proof that Grandal would be a "fine bat" in teh show. He is still a couple seasons away from being Major league ready...

malcontent
12-19-2011, 02:35 PM
There is exactly ZERO proof that Grandal would be a "fine bat" in teh show. He is still a couple seasons away from being Major league ready...
.305/.401/.500 at A+/AA/AAA at age 22 tells me otherwise.

Grandal is about as sure a thing as there is. He's the primary reason the majority of analysts have said that this was a bad deal for the Reds.

malcontent
12-19-2011, 02:46 PM
Jeezus. I just looked up Boxberger's 2011 stats.

32 hits and 93 K in 62 IP.

All those saying, "he's just a reliever", thereby implying that he can't have significant value...please go stand in the corner.

Now.

Captain13
12-19-2011, 03:48 PM
I am tired of "can't miss" prospects and a bright future. I am glad Walt is going for while the getting is good. This is the best chance the Reds have, and I frankly don't care what it cost if what we bought is October baseball.

smixsell
12-19-2011, 04:02 PM
Cueto's barely a number 2 with his K numbers.

:confused: Obviously you don't know much about pitching. A guy can be a #1 without significant stikeout #'s, (IE Tommy John in his prime) ESPECIALLY in GABP

texasdave
12-19-2011, 08:31 PM
The Nationals are pushing hard for Gio Gonzalez, according to Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (on Twitter). The A's and Nationals are discussing a possible four-for-one deal involving the left-hander.

It will be interesting to see the yield on Gio if this trade goes down.

smixsell
12-19-2011, 08:36 PM
Whatever, we will be laughed at in 2 years when we have neither Votto or Alonzo and the Padres have a 15 game winner, a 40 save closer, a 30 Homer first baseman & an All Star Catcher.



:laugh: You're tripping man! :laugh:

Sober up. :p

Mutaman
12-20-2011, 01:29 AM
Jesus Christ.....do you not realize that baseball will be played for years after the 2012 season.

Are you that short sighted?


"The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead."

Keynes

LeDoux
12-20-2011, 05:50 AM
I wonder how much EV was valued by both teams in this deal. I was looking forward to seeing him in a bullpen role and I hope he wasn't just a "throw in" player.

As far as who won and who lost in this deal, I don't think anyone can tell until 2014-2015. Who can predict if prospects will play near their ceilings or if Latos will turn into a pumpkin? Maybe Santa will bring me a new crystal ball for Christmas and I can start posting Nostradamus style.

The man on a small mountain tastes victory in the river-sown city.
The priests by the sea lament his leaving.
A deft-handed general smiles at his schemes.
Red men have conquered the World.