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View Full Version : I'm tired or hearing we overpaid.....



jhu1321
12-19-2011, 10:55 AM
I think Ken Rosenthal's column does a nice job of presenting the case from both sides. It was a bold move that could potentially pay off for BOTH teams!

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/cincinnati-reds-made-shrewd-move-in-matt-latos-mlb-trade-121711

brad1176
12-19-2011, 11:36 AM
I agree, Rosenthal does a great job of summing it up. I was so sick of hearing so many ripping Jocketty and the FO for doing nothing, then when they do make a huge trade, they all cry about it. A pitcher like Latos doesn't come cheap.

Captain13
12-19-2011, 12:12 PM
I agree, Rosenthal does a great job of summing it up. I was so sick of hearing so many ripping Jocketty and the FO for doing nothing, then when they do make a huge trade, they all cry about it. A pitcher like Latos doesn't come cheap.

My thoughts exactly. If the Reds can get to/win the World Series in 2012 or 2013, I don't care how good the players SD got are: It is a good trade. If we don't win the Central, it is a bad trade. Anything in between can be debated, but Walt is making a play for the WS here. I love it.

FireDusty
12-19-2011, 12:39 PM
Blah blah blah.......epic overpay.....Rosenthal is covering his ass because he was giving the Reds heat for not trading.

Every planet in the galaxy will have to align for this to even be a break even.

As it is, we got hosed....in a major way.

Grouse
12-19-2011, 01:04 PM
This trade did free up some cash thou , mabey we spend that on a win now team. I tired of hearing about the future, lets win now.

jhu1321
12-19-2011, 01:30 PM
I agree, Rosenthal does a great job of summing it up. I was so sick of hearing so many ripping Jocketty and the FO for doing nothing, then when they do make a huge trade, they all cry about it. A pitcher like Latos doesn't come cheap.

Exactly, evidently there was no way for Reds management to win. Any of the pitchers we were targeting were going to ask for those three (maybe w/o Boxburger) but I'd have much rather thrown him in and acquired Latos over Gio, Shields, Jurjens etc..

brm7675
12-19-2011, 03:16 PM
I am sorry but I can't see what those who think we got hosed saw in the 4 players we gave up? The only 1 I see has having a legit shot at ML stardom is Yonder, and that is as a DH maybe. He is not a good defender and he would have done nothing but rode the pine for at least half a season each of the next two years...

DirtyBaker
12-19-2011, 03:26 PM
Those who think the Reds have overpaid should note:

Career ERA of 3.37 over 429 IP
3.57 ERA on the road.
Arb Eligible: 2013
Free Agent: 2016
2012 contract $461k
24 years old

And come to terms with:
Volquez couldn't give us 7 innings and was abysmal early in games.
Votto or Yonder needed to be traded.
Mes or Yas needed to be traded.

americanoutlaw1
12-19-2011, 03:34 PM
As it stands now, I think it was a great move. I was hesitant at first but after thinking about it rationally I believe Walt did good. I like Yonder and Yas as much as anybody, but Latos is a straight up beast on the mound, and I am very excited to have him as a member of the Reds.

Now, if Walt can address the LF and closer situations we will be set. Also, I will not ocmplain if he decides to go after another starter, as has been indicated since this trades completion. For example, if Gio is still available I would be fine with bringing him in as the second acquisition, I was just not cool with him being the big off-season move. But now that it would simply be a complementary move, I would have no complaints.

FireDusty
12-19-2011, 03:45 PM
I am sorry but I can't see what those who think we got hosed saw in the 4 players we gave up? The only 1 I see has having a legit shot at ML stardom is Yonder, and that is as a DH maybe. He is not a good defender and he would have done nothing but rode the pine for at least half a season each of the next two years...

So.....you don't see a switch hitting .300 hitter with power and excellent defense has any chance at Major League Stardom?

:confused:

R_Webb18
12-19-2011, 03:48 PM
So.....you don't see a switch hitting .300 hitter with power and excellent defense has any chance at Major League Stardom?

:confused:

dont we have a catcher?

o btw don't read to much into this b/c espn was acting like edison v was the main peice in the deal. lol

o btw fd you can hate the trade but why does latos have to be a bust?

RedsFan_26
12-19-2011, 03:49 PM
So.....you don't see a switch hitting .300 hitter with power and excellent defense has any chance at Major League Stardom?

:confused:

19 passed balls in 90 games is excellent defense? :confused:

FireDusty
12-19-2011, 04:02 PM
19 passed balls in 90 games is excellent defense? :confused:
I believe he will improve and by the time all is said and done..he will be Jorge Posada...with better defense.

FireDusty
12-19-2011, 04:04 PM
dont we have a catcher?

o btw don't read to much into this b/c espn was acting like edison v was the main peice in the deal. lol

o btw fd you can hate the trade but why does latos have to be a bust?

If we had brought up Mes sooner, we would know more about him...but we had 80 wins to get.....so he languished in the minors.

brm7675
12-19-2011, 06:14 PM
So.....you don't see a switch hitting .300 hitter with power and excellent defense has any chance at Major League Stardom?

:confused:

Exactly where did this player hit .300 with poer and have excellent defense?

brm7675
12-19-2011, 06:16 PM
I believe he will improve and by the time all is said and done..he will be Jorge Posada...with better defense.

Or he could be a bust....more odds a bust then a talent...

Blood Red Path
12-19-2011, 06:25 PM
Barring an injury to Votto, Yonder had no serious value to us over the next two years, he was simply a parttime OF. You can't let a guy with that kind of a bat languish on your bench for two more years just to have him there if Votto bolts- that's not how the business works.

I like Grandal, but he never represented anything to the Reds other than a quality back-up for Mesoraco. Mes is further along, and projects as the better major-leaguer between the two.

Boxberger is a reliever- therefore, no matter how talented, he is ultimately just expendable and replaceable filler.

And Volquez has great stuff, but is now nothing more than a back-of-the-rotation headcase with a PED violation on his record.

And what did they get from this group of players that stood to provide the Reds next to zero quantifiable production over the next couple of years??

Answer- a 24 year old legit ace with four years of club control.

Did the Pads get good value back? Of course they did, no team would trade a guy like Latos without getting value for themselves. But those players represent value to the Pads that they didn't represent to the Reds due to roster situations.

Did the Reds overpay?? HELL NO. Anyone who looks at this deal and doesn't see where it ulimately pays large dividends for the Reds either doesn't know the game at all or doesn't realize just how good Latos is- I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and just assume it's probably the latter. Once they see how much better Latos is than any other pitcher who has worn a Reds uniform in two decades-plus then most will likely come around.

If they would have given this package for Gio Gonzalez or Jair Jurrjens then that would have been gross-overpayment. Neither of those guys is nearly the pitcher Latos is. Had they acquired one of them, Cueto would still have been the Reds best pitcher. As it stands now, Cueto is most defintely not this team's best starter any longer. I wouldn't even have liked giving this package for Shields. But it's hard to argue with Latos- he has Felix Hernandez, Jered Weaver, Clayton Kershaw, etc. type of upside. He is young enough and talented to potentially turn into the best pitcher in the NL, and he may do it over the course of the next four years- AS A RED!!

texasdave
12-19-2011, 06:30 PM
If you consider Boxberger, Volquez and Alonso straight up for Latos a fair deal; then the Reds essentially 'overpaid' in the form of Yasmani Grandal for a solid chance to make the playoffs two years running. Grandal in exchange for two playoff appearances? Sign me up every day of the week.

Aside from 1999 and 2010, Reds' fans have just waded through roughly a decade and a half of crapola. We deserve two years of shinola. And this organizational cupboard is not bare by any stretch.

Outlaw133
12-19-2011, 09:43 PM
As it stands now, I think it was a great move. I was hesitant at first but after thinking about it rationally I believe Walt did good. I like Yonder and Yas as much as anybody, but Latos is a straight up beast on the mound, and I am very excited to have him as a member of the Reds.

Now, if Walt can address the LF and closer situations we will be set. Also, I will not ocmplain if he decides to go after another starter, as has been indicated since this trades completion. For example, if Gio is still available I would be fine with bringing him in as the second acquisition, I was just not cool with him being the big off-season move. But now that it would simply be a complementary move, I would have no complaints.

I hated to see Yonder go. Other than that, we sent an imploded pitcher and two unproven minor leaguers and got a top end of the rotation pitcher. Works for me. ("Americanoutlaw1"? Is that you Junior?)

jhu1321
12-20-2011, 09:44 AM
Barring an injury to Votto, Yonder had no serious value to us over the next two years, he was simply a parttime OF. You can't let a guy with that kind of a bat languish on your bench for two more years just to have him there if Votto bolts- that's not how the business works.

I like Grandal, but he never represented anything to the Reds other than a quality back-up for Mesoraco. Mes is further along, and projects as the better major-leaguer between the two.

Boxberger is a reliever- therefore, no matter how talented, he is ultimately just expendable and replaceable filler.

And Volquez has great stuff, but is now nothing more than a back-of-the-rotation headcase with a PED violation on his record.

And what did they get from this group of players that stood to provide the Reds next to zero quantifiable production over the next couple of years??

Answer- a 24 year old legit ace with four years of club control.

Did the Pads get good value back? Of course they did, no team would trade a guy like Latos without getting value for themselves. But those players represent value to the Pads that they didn't represent to the Reds due to roster situations.

Did the Reds overpay?? HELL NO. Anyone who looks at this deal and doesn't see where it ulimately pays large dividends for the Reds either doesn't know the game at all or doesn't realize just how good Latos is- I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and just assume it's probably the latter. Once they see how much better Latos is than any other pitcher who has worn a Reds uniform in two decades-plus then most will likely come around.

If they would have given this package for Gio Gonzalez or Jair Jurrjens then that would have been gross-overpayment. Neither of those guys is nearly the pitcher Latos is. Had they acquired one of them, Cueto would still have been the Reds best pitcher. As it stands now, Cueto is most defintely not this team's best starter any longer. I wouldn't even have liked giving this package for Shields. But it's hard to argue with Latos- he has Felix Hernandez, Jered Weaver, Clayton Kershaw, etc. type of upside. He is young enough and talented to potentially turn into the best pitcher in the NL, and he may do it over the course of the next four years- AS A RED!!

100% agree with this post!

SidneySlicker
12-20-2011, 09:54 AM
Barring an injury to Votto, Yonder had no serious value to us over the next two years, he was simply a parttime OF. You can't let a guy with that kind of a bat languish on your bench for two more years just to have him there if Votto bolts- that's not how the business works.

I like Grandal, but he never represented anything to the Reds other than a quality back-up for Mesoraco. Mes is further along, and projects as the better major-leaguer between the two.

Boxberger is a reliever- therefore, no matter how talented, he is ultimately just expendable and replaceable filler.

And Volquez has great stuff, but is now nothing more than a back-of-the-rotation headcase with a PED violation on his record.

And what did they get from this group of players that stood to provide the Reds next to zero quantifiable production over the next couple of years??

Answer- a 24 year old legit ace with four years of club control.

Did the Pads get good value back? Of course they did, no team would trade a guy like Latos without getting value for themselves. But those players represent value to the Pads that they didn't represent to the Reds due to roster situations.

Did the Reds overpay?? HELL NO. Anyone who looks at this deal and doesn't see where it ulimately pays large dividends for the Reds either doesn't know the game at all or doesn't realize just how good Latos is- I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and just assume it's probably the latter. Once they see how much better Latos is than any other pitcher who has worn a Reds uniform in two decades-plus then most will likely come around.

If they would have given this package for Gio Gonzalez or Jair Jurrjens then that would have been gross-overpayment. Neither of those guys is nearly the pitcher Latos is. Had they acquired one of them, Cueto would still have been the Reds best pitcher. As it stands now, Cueto is most defintely not this team's best starter any longer. I wouldn't even have liked giving this package for Shields. But it's hard to argue with Latos- he has Felix Hernandez, Jered Weaver, Clayton Kershaw, etc. type of upside. He is young enough and talented to potentially turn into the best pitcher in the NL, and he may do it over the course of the next four years- AS A RED!!

Bravo

Ohioballplayer
12-20-2011, 02:05 PM
Barring an injury to Votto, Yonder had no serious value to us over the next two years, he was simply a parttime OF. You can't let a guy with that kind of a bat languish on your bench for two more years just to have him there if Votto bolts- that's not how the business works.

I like Grandal, but he never represented anything to the Reds other than a quality back-up for Mesoraco. Mes is further along, and projects as the better major-leaguer between the two.

Boxberger is a reliever- therefore, no matter how talented, he is ultimately just expendable and replaceable filler.

And Volquez has great stuff, but is now nothing more than a back-of-the-rotation headcase with a PED violation on his record.

And what did they get from this group of players that stood to provide the Reds next to zero quantifiable production over the next couple of years??

Answer- a 24 year old legit ace with four years of club control.

Did the Pads get good value back? Of course they did, no team would trade a guy like Latos without getting value for themselves. But those players represent value to the Pads that they didn't represent to the Reds due to roster situations.

Did the Reds overpay?? HELL NO. Anyone who looks at this deal and doesn't see where it ulimately pays large dividends for the Reds either doesn't know the game at all or doesn't realize just how good Latos is- I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and just assume it's probably the latter. Once they see how much better Latos is than any other pitcher who has worn a Reds uniform in two decades-plus then most will likely come around.

If they would have given this package for Gio Gonzalez or Jair Jurrjens then that would have been gross-overpayment. Neither of those guys is nearly the pitcher Latos is. Had they acquired one of them, Cueto would still have been the Reds best pitcher. As it stands now, Cueto is most defintely not this team's best starter any longer. I wouldn't even have liked giving this package for Shields. But it's hard to argue with Latos- he has Felix Hernandez, Jered Weaver, Clayton Kershaw, etc. type of upside. He is young enough and talented to potentially turn into the best pitcher in the NL, and he may do it over the course of the next four years- AS A RED!!

Wow, sir, awesome, I like Latos and yes I thought we gave up too much, but this post completely changed my mind!:thumbup:

krm1580
12-20-2011, 02:17 PM
The one guy in this deal who I fear we will regret trading, is ironically the guy that we regret trading for, Edinson Volquez.

Why would the Padres want "a back-of-the-rotation headcase with a PED violation on his record"?

For me the reason is simple. Volquez still has absolutely filthy stuff, I would argue better pure stuff than Latos. The problem of course is his command stinks and as we know from the last 3 years, stuff without command is does not get you far. Enter Bud Black who is a really good pitching guy and I am sure was involved with whether or not they thought they could fix him or not.

I don't know if they can fix him or not, but I think the Reds overpaid in this deal as is and the price will become staggeringly high if he does turn back into 2008 Volquez.

brm7675
12-20-2011, 03:25 PM
I would match Ted Power against Bud any day and while there was some improvement even Ted couldn't correct the control issues enough.

texasdave
12-20-2011, 04:22 PM
The one guy in this deal who I fear we will regret trading, is ironically the guy that we regret trading for, Edinson Volquez.

Why would the Padres want "a back-of-the-rotation headcase with a PED violation on his record"?

For me the reason is simple. Volquez still has absolutely filthy stuff, I would argue better pure stuff than Latos. The problem of course is his command stinks and as we know from the last 3 years, stuff without command is does not get you far. Enter Bud Black who is a really good pitching guy and I am sure was involved with whether or not they thought they could fix him or not.

I don't know if they can fix him or not, but I think the Reds overpaid in this deal as is and the price will become staggeringly high if he does turn back into 2008 Volquez.

It is possible that out there in that Grand Canyon of a park called PETCO he learns to trust his stuff more because every mistake pitch isn't flying out of the ballpark. I could see where pitching at GABP could make a pitcher a little gunshy.

Hondo
12-20-2011, 08:50 PM
I think Walt over-paid. Milwaukee got Zach Greinke for a Far Below Package than the Reds gave for Latos and Greinke was a Cy Young Winner...

I know they took the 4/5 Million Contract on Bentancourt but the guy did an average Job at SS for the Brewers and wasn't a High Salary for his Production.

LegallyMinded
12-20-2011, 10:50 PM
I think Walt over-paid. Milwaukee got Zach Greinke for a Far Below Package than the Reds gave for Latos and Greinke was a Cy Young Winner...

I know they took the 4/5 Million Contract on Bentancourt but the guy did an average Job at SS for the Brewers and wasn't a High Salary for his Production.

Greinke, however, was owed 27 million over 2011-2012, and is a free agent after that. Latos isn't even arbitration eligible until 2013. Additionally, Latos is four years younger, and over the last two seasons, his 3.21/3.09/3.36 ERA/FIP/xFIP looks pretty similar to Greinke's 4.02/3.18/3.15. In short, if the Reds had to give up more to get Latos, there were clear reasons why.