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joe51391
12-19-2011, 11:55 PM
we should really try to get a true leadoff hitter that can get on base put the ball in play and not strikeout so much. I'm not a big fan of stubbs he plays a great d and has good speed but he looks like adam dunn without the power at the plate and he's not very good on the bases he should have 60-90 stolen bases a year and score 110-125 runs easy. I think a leadoff hitter with great speed and defence should be the next move made. I like Gardner, Crisp and ellsbury. I know there is slim to no hope of getting ellsbury but he would probly be my #1 choice. Now crisp is a free agent and would probly cost around 5 to 8 million alone to get him so the most realistic choice is gardner he could be had for sappelt and bailey maybe another prospect but if i was in charge he is who i would go after. now then i wonder if we could trade stubbs for storen. i like a Lf of heisey and frazier.

Gardner
Phillips
Votto
Bruce
Rolen/Francisco
Heisey/Frazier
Mesaroco/Hannigan
Cozart

Plus i'm not real big on the whole lefty righty split that has to be in dusty's lineup every night.Bruce and Votto would see much better pitches with them hitting backto back. win the game early on then you don't have to worry about a lefty coming in in the 7th and 8th.

RedsBrick
12-20-2011, 11:14 AM
we should really try to get a true leadoff hitter that can get on base put the ball in play and not strikeout so much. I'm not a big fan of stubbs he plays a great d and has good speed but he looks like adam dunn without the power at the plate and he's not very good on the bases he should have 60-90 stolen bases a year and score 110-125 runs easy. I think a leadoff hitter with great speed and defence should be the next move made. I like Gardner, Crisp and ellsbury. I know there is slim to no hope of getting ellsbury but he would probly be my #1 choice. Now crisp is a free agent and would probly cost around 5 to 8 million alone to get him so the most realistic choice is gardner he could be had for sappelt and bailey maybe another prospect but if i was in charge he is who i would go after. now then i wonder if we could trade stubbs for storen. i like a Lf of heisey and frazier.

Gardner
Phillips
Votto
Bruce
Rolen/Francisco
Heisey/Frazier
Mesaroco/Hannigan
Cozart

Plus i'm not real big on the whole lefty righty split that has to be in dusty's lineup every night.Bruce and Votto would see much better pitches with them hitting backto back. win the game early on then you don't have to worry about a lefty coming in in the 7th and 8th.

While I do agree DS Ks entirely too much, I don't agree that he's not good on the base paths. He was 2nd in the NL with 40 stolen bases and he scored 92 runs. Those are numbers that would go up if he would cut down on the Ks, which is a big 'if'. I do think your numbers of 60 SBs and 110 runs are reachable....if he can have more plate discipline and contact.

I will also say that stiking out 1 in every 3 ABs is not good and neither is the fact that his K total increased by almost 40 from 2010 to 2011. Those are not good numbers for a lead-off guy. But I'm not opposed to giving him another shot at it...with a short leash...because his speed is something you can't coach or teach.

jmt5887
12-20-2011, 11:20 AM
I don't think a Lead-off hitter is needed as badly as a RH OF bat is. Phillips can do the job fine and we can keep Stubbs Hidden away in the 7 hole where he can preform well without being asked to do something he's not suited for.

RedsBrick
12-20-2011, 11:28 AM
I don't think Baker would ever do this but I'd love to see him think a little differently, pull a LaRussa and put Stubbs in the 9-hole.

You'd reduce the # of ABs he'd get, take some of the pressure off by keeping him down in the order yet still be able to take advantage of his speed by putting him in front of the run producers....in effect making Phillips a 2-hole hitter.

jmt5887
12-20-2011, 11:33 AM
I don't think Baker would ever do this but I'd love to see him think a little differently, pull a LaRussa and put Stubbs in the 9-hole.

You'd reduce the # of ABs he'd get, take some of the pressure off by keeping him down in the order yet still be able to take advantage of his speed by putting him in front of the run producers....in effect making Phillips a 2-hole hitter.

That wouldn't be a bad Idea. But like you pointed out it's not something an Old baseball guy like Baker will try because it's not what they did when he played.

izzy's dad
12-20-2011, 11:45 AM
I don't think Baker would ever do this but I'd love to see him think a little differently, pull a LaRussa and put Stubbs in the 9-hole.

You'd reduce the # of ABs he'd get, take some of the pressure off by keeping him down in the order yet still be able to take advantage of his speed by putting him in front of the run producers....in effect making Phillips a 2-hole hitter.

I like this idea, don't think it will happen. Doesn't seem like Dusty would try something like that.

swaisuc
12-20-2011, 12:04 PM
Its a poorly constructed roster if you care about lineup construction. Personally, I think it makes things easier if you bat Joey somewhere else, but you've got to get someone else to step up and earn the 3 spot first. Maybe Mes will do that by the end of the year. I don't know. Also, I'm one of the few guys that believes you bat guys wherever they feel comfortable so that matters as well.

If we're talking opening day, I guess I'm going with this for now...
Stubbs
Phillips
Votto
Bruce
Heisey
Mes/Hannigan
Rolen
Cozart

In a dream world though, I'd like something like...
Cozart
Votto
Phillips
Bruce
Mes
Stubbs
Rolen
Heisey

Regarding the OP, I do like the thought of Stubbs/Rolen back to back, but I hate the idea of anyone doing anything in front of Joey. You can do the same thing with those 2 6/7 and make the added bases more valuable without risking erasing baserunners for Joey. Stubbs really has the power to hit 6th and drive in runs anyway, but if you view him as purely a speed guy I think we can count on any of Bruce/Heisey/Mes in the 5 hole ending their share of innings.

Old NDN
12-22-2011, 10:24 AM
An OF that has Bruce, Hiesey, Stubbs in it as starters, will lead the majors in Ks,IMO. I don't think the Reds can survive that lack of contact on a regular basis. None of them has shone a propensity to make any improvements/adjustments to cut down on the Ks. They HAVE to find a LF. As much as I like Hiesey, I think he has to be the backup or share with Stubbs.

Stray
12-22-2011, 12:22 PM
Right now I'd feel pretty good about BP leading off.

OGB
12-22-2011, 06:41 PM
An OF that has Bruce, Hiesey, Stubbs in it as starters, will lead the majors in Ks,IMO. I don't think the Reds can survive that lack of contact on a regular basis. None of them has shone a propensity to make any improvements/adjustments to cut down on the Ks. They HAVE to find a LF. As much as I like Hiesey, I think he has to be the backup or share with Stubbs.

Especially if Juan Francisco is playing 3B on an even semi regular basis. IMHO, even if he's healthy, Rolen shouldn't play more than 100 games this year. This idea of, "he's older and we don't want him to break down so we'll give him one day off per week" is absolute nonsense and it has proven to be faulty the past 2 seasons. Rolen should be playing closer to 60% of the time.

Crumbley
12-23-2011, 05:34 AM
Right now I'd feel pretty good about BP leading off.
.350/.417/.573 in the lead off spot last year. I'd be inclined to agree.

RED59
12-23-2011, 10:43 AM
Strike outs are important when there are men on base. I do not agree they are all that important for a lead off hitter. OBP and base running ability (not always a function of speed) are the criteria which are more important.

texasdave
12-23-2011, 10:49 AM
Drew Stubbs' Home/Road Career Splits:

Home - 714PA 29HR .277/.344/.475/.819
Road - 746PA 16HR .226/.306/.338/.645

Tuff Nut
12-23-2011, 11:28 AM
Strike outs are important when there are men on base. I do not agree they are all that important for a lead off hitter. OBP and base running ability (not always a function of speed) are the criteria which are more important.
IF the leadoff is striking out 100+ times a year, how's he getting on base more?

RED59
12-31-2011, 03:14 PM
An out is an out. OBP is based on walks and hits. It is simple math.

powersackers
01-02-2012, 05:12 AM
We have a leadoff hitter. Phillips when leading off in 39 games last year .350/.417/.573/.990. Those numbers less 10% would still make him one of the best leadoff hitters in the game.

vs LHP and RHP
Phillips
Cozart
Votto
Rolen (francisco vs. matchup RHP and Sundays)
Bruce
Heisey
Stubbs
Mes/Hanigan

No other way to do it IMHO (which is likely very similar to Baker's).

OGB
01-02-2012, 07:42 PM
We have a leadoff hitter. Phillips when leading off in 39 games last year .350/.417/.573/.990. Those numbers less 10% would still make him one of the best leadoff hitters in the game.

vs LHP and RHP
Phillips
Cozart
Votto
Rolen (francisco vs. matchup RHP and Sundays)
Bruce
Heisey
Stubbs
Mes/Hanigan

No other way to do it IMHO (which is likely very similar to Baker's).

I don't understand why everyone so readily plugs Rolen into the 4hole in their projected lineup and bats Mesoraco 8th. Care to explain?

Tuff Nut
01-02-2012, 07:50 PM
I'm more than happy with Brandon leading off. As for the previous question as to why Rolen 4th...imo, he is better acclimated to do it, than any else, other than Bruce, and that puts our only LH bats, back to back.

nux fan
01-03-2012, 12:21 AM
rolen should be on the bench or in the hospital

powersackers
01-03-2012, 01:29 AM
I don't understand why everyone so readily plugs Rolen into the 4hole in their projected lineup and bats Mesoraco 8th. Care to explain?

Because 1) Mes has to show us something at the MLB level and sustain it and 2) because a veteran RBI guy should bat 4th until he shows he's healthy or not healthy enough to sustain No. 4 production at the MLB level. 2010 he could do it. 2011 was a waste. If he's unproductive May 1st let's talk.

Krawhitham
01-03-2012, 02:57 AM
i like a Lf of heisey and frazier.


What has Frazier done to make a fan of you

Is it his .232 average in the majors last season or his career .262 in AAA

Krawhitham
01-03-2012, 02:58 AM
I don't understand why everyone so readily plugs Rolen into the 4hole in their projected lineup and bats Mesoraco 8th. Care to explain?

Don't worry about it, Rolen will only play 12 game before getting hurt

Krawhitham
01-03-2012, 03:03 AM
Because 1) Mes has to show us something at the MLB level and sustain it and 2) because a veteran RBI guy should bat 4th until he shows he's healthy or not healthy enough to sustain No. 4 production at the MLB level. 2010 he could do it. 2011 was a waste. If he's unproductive May 1st let's talk.

veteran RBI guy?

It has been almost a decade since the man had 100 RBI in a season

Over the last 8 seasons he has averaged only 52 RBI a season


You are willing to waste a 1/6th of the season waiting for him to turn into a veteran RBI guy, how many games will that cost the team?

In the 2nd half of 2010 he had 26 RBI and last season he had 36 RBI.

The man had 3 good months has a Red before he started braking down