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RedsFan_26
12-20-2011, 10:23 PM
Reds and cubs discussing a swap involving Sean Marshall and Travis Wood.

I love Marshall, and i think he has what it takes to be a closer for our club.

But I'm hesitant about trading a young pitching talent within our division.

Thoughts?

mroby85
12-20-2011, 10:37 PM
I wouldn't make that trade. Seems like you're trading very similar players to me, and Wood is younger..

izzy's dad
12-20-2011, 10:39 PM
I wouldn't make that trade. Seems like you're trading very similar players to me, and Wood is younger..

and cheaper

AWA85
12-20-2011, 10:41 PM
Much like dealing Alonso and Grandal, you are getting a quality player that would help our pen while giving up a pitcher who is most likely 7th on the depth chart right now?

Not saying I am for or against it, but surprised everyone is flipping out already.

RedsFan_26
12-20-2011, 10:41 PM
I wouldn't make that trade. Seems like you're trading very similar players to me, and Wood is younger..

Since being put into bullpen these are his numbers..

2010 ERA: 2.65 74.2 IP 90 SO, only 25 BB
2011 ERA: 2.26 75.2 IP 79 SO, only 17 BB

Don't seem very similar to me, although i don't like trading young pitching for 1 yr relievers

will5979
12-20-2011, 10:43 PM
Reds and cubs discussing a swap involving Sean Marshall and Travis Wood.

I love Marshall, and i think he has what it takes to be a closer for our club.

But I'm hesitant about trading a young pitching talent within our division.

Thoughts?

Horrible idea, I pray this isn't true, I'm not ready to give up on Wood as a proven starter yet. Hell the organization has been patient enough with ol' Homer (including myself) and I think Wood deserves the same opportunity. Closers are expendable.

nmculbreth
12-20-2011, 10:44 PM
Sean Marshall is an ideal target for the Reds - he'll be relatively affordable and could close or at the very least be a great high leverage LHP. That said he's only under control for one more season so there is no way I'd give up Travis Wood unless I'm getting something very significant piece in addition to Marshall.

izzy's dad
12-20-2011, 10:47 PM
What would it take to get Marlon Byrd and Marshall? Would they improve our club? I think so, what do you people think?

redsfan1995
12-20-2011, 10:49 PM
terrible deal doesnt make any sense

RedsFan_26
12-20-2011, 10:52 PM
What would it take to get Marlon Byrd and Marshall? Would they improve our club? I think so, what do you people think?

That was my initial thought at first as well, but Byrd's getting paid 6.5 million next year and Marshall at 3.1 million. Don't think we could afford that if Jocketty says we couldnt afford paying Willingham 7 mil. a year

AWA85
12-20-2011, 10:53 PM
Much like dealing Alonso and Grandal, you are getting a quality player that would help our pen while giving up a pitcher who is most likely 7th on the depth chart right now?

Not saying I am for or against it, but surprised everyone is flipping out already.

RedsFan_26
12-20-2011, 10:55 PM
Much like dealing Alonso and Grandal, you are getting a quality player that would help our pen while giving up a pitcher who is most likely 7th on the depth chart right now?

Not saying I am for or against it, but surprised everyone is flipping out already.

dually noted ;)

izzy's dad
12-20-2011, 10:56 PM
That was my initial thought at first as well, but Byrd's getting paid 6.5 million next year and Marshall at 3.1 million. Don't think we could afford that if Jocketty says we couldnt afford paying Willingham 7 mil. a year

I imagine the Cubs would be willing to eat some of the $ if the prospects in return had some value. The Latos trade freed up 3.5 mil I think. That takes care of Marshalls contract, if the Cubs paid a little bit I think it could be done. But I don't know what it would cost, and if Byrd is an upgrade over Heisey at this point. Just throwing stuff at the wall, seeing if anything sticks.

LegallyMinded
12-20-2011, 10:56 PM
Wood took a significant step backwards last year in terms of his K/9 and BB/9 numbers, and I also imagine the Reds are concerned about his flyball tendencies. Over his ML career, his FIP at home is 4.15, while on the road it's 3.53, so even if the Reds do think Wood can be a quality starter, they might not think he can be a quality starter in Great American.

Marshall, meanwhile, has excelled since being converted to a reliever. In fact, despite pitching only 75 innings last year, according to Fangraphs WAR, he would have been the most valuable pitcher on the entire staff if he had been on the Reds. I'd say the trade is definitely worth pursuing.

RedsFan_26
12-20-2011, 11:02 PM
I imagine the Cubs would be willing to eat some of the $ if the prospects in return had some value. The Latos trade freed up 3.5 mil I think. That takes care of Marshalls contract, if the Cubs paid a little bit I think it could be done. But I don't know what it would cost, and if Byrd is an upgrade over Heisey at this point. Just throwing stuff at the wall, seeing if anything sticks.

I agree with seeing what it would take to get Byrd.

But that is the big question at this point when you look at FA OF's or trade targets; Are they an upgrade over what Heisey could give us playing full time?

dMaus14
12-20-2011, 11:26 PM
That was my initial thought at first as well, but Byrd's getting paid 6.5 million next year and Marshall at 3.1 million. Don't think we could afford that if Jocketty says we couldnt afford paying Willingham 7 mil. a year

I think they couldn't afford $7M for willingham because they expected to pay about $5M for a closer and still had a back up INF to afford as well! But paying $9M for both could be good!

RedsFan_26
12-20-2011, 11:44 PM
Wow, this thread is flowing, since the Troll decided to stay in his dungeon today
:beerme:

KYRedLeg
12-20-2011, 11:48 PM
Wow, this thread is flowing, since the Troll decided to stay in his dungeon today
:beerme:

He's just Latos intolerant.

The DARK
12-20-2011, 11:53 PM
Making a straight-up trade means that an extension already needs to be a sure thing, which it probably won't be with the brass already wrestling with extensions for Votto and Phillips and a load of new players hitting arbitration next year. With LF one of our primary needs after RP, adding in a mid-level prospect for Byrd as well evens out the trade and gives us a real contending team this year.

R_Webb18
12-21-2011, 12:08 AM
i don't think id do this.

BEETTLEBUG
12-21-2011, 01:18 AM
I read over on ORG that it was real close to being done and it was Wood and two minor leaguers.

No way to much even with exstintion for Marshall.!!!

R_Webb18
12-21-2011, 01:23 AM
I read over on ORG that it was real close to being done and it was Wood and two minor leaguers.

No way to much even with exstintion for Marshall.!!!

i mean it can't rly be just marshall right?

unreal

NorrisHopper30
12-21-2011, 01:25 AM
I think I'd like this trade. I'm confident Wood will regress, let's use our depth to bolster the bullpen....preferably if we can re-sign Marshall.

Also, he makes 3.1m this year, so that should leave ~6m left to spend for 2012 (correct me if I'm wrong) so that virtually eliminates Cordero from returning. Sounds like Marshall would be the new closer.


EDIT: Sounds like Cordero remains a possibility even w/ Marshall acquisition. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/source-cincinnati-reds-eyeing-chicago-cubs-lefty-sean-marshall-122011

R_Webb18
12-21-2011, 01:44 AM
from what org is saying we have around 15 m so we would still have around 12m

JayStubbs
12-21-2011, 01:56 AM
Wood took a significant step backwards last year in terms of his K/9 and BB/9 numbers, and I also imagine the Reds are concerned about his flyball tendencies. Over his ML career, his FIP at home is 4.15, while on the road it's 3.53, so even if the Reds do think Wood can be a quality starter, they might not think he can be a quality starter in Great American.

Marshall, meanwhile, has excelled since being converted to a reliever. In fact, despite pitching only 75 innings last year, according to Fangraphs WAR, he would have been the most valuable pitcher on the entire staff if he had been on the Reds. I'd say the trade is definitely worth pursuing.

Very solid analysis. I agree on all counts. :thumbup:

dMaus14
12-21-2011, 02:12 AM
Just some additional info: Sean Marshall has the highest cumulative WAR for ALL relievers over the past two years!

texasdave
12-21-2011, 02:33 AM
I am not a proponent of resigning Coco. But. If they just trade for Marshall, the bullpen will be dominant. Dominant I tell you!!!

Lefties: Bray, Marshall, Chapman.
Righties: LeCure, Masset, Ondrusek, Arredondo.

I don't think Chapman will be a starter. And, if used judiciously by Baker, this bullpen will be top three in the league.

nux fan
12-21-2011, 02:56 AM
sorry texas dave I usually agree with you but Masset Arredondo and Ondruszek are garbage

R_Webb18
12-21-2011, 03:11 AM
sorry texas dave I usually agree with you but Masset Arredondo and Ondruszek are garbage

this is not true

R_Webb18
12-21-2011, 03:34 AM
any chance matt garza part of this :)

RedsFan_26
12-21-2011, 06:53 AM
According to MLBTR, the deal is in its closing stages, and the cubs will be recieving 2 minor leagers with Wood, and it is unknown if the Reds will be recieving any other players but Marshall

Alpha Zero
12-21-2011, 07:29 AM
If the Reds are including 2 minor leaguers in addition to Wood, then they better be getting more back than just Marshall. Look, Marshall is a great reliever, and I'd love to have him closing out games for the Reds. However, you just don't do 3-for-1 deals for relievers, especially ones with only a year of team control left.

I'm very apprehensive about this deal. I like Wood a lot, but you might be able to convince me that dealing him straight up for Marshall is worth it. But Wood plus two other prospects? No way.

By the way, I was very much in favor of the Latos deal since both sides got what they needed, but this trade seems to be shaping up very poorly for the Reds. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens with this one before passing any final judgements.

alett12
12-21-2011, 09:04 AM
Honestly, I think a move like this would mean one of the following things
1. Bray will close
2. Marshall would close
3. They think that bray can't get out lefties any more
4. Travis Wood suddenly has injury concerns

LegallyMinded
12-21-2011, 09:52 AM
If the Reds are including 2 minor leaguers in addition to Wood, then they better be getting more back than just Marshall. Look, Marshall is a great reliever, and I'd love to have him closing out games for the Reds. However, you just don't do 3-for-1 deals for relievers, especially ones with only a year of team control left.

I'm very apprehensive about this deal. I like Wood a lot, but you might be able to convince me that dealing him straight up for Marshall is worth it. But Wood plus two other prospects? No way.



Adding two prospects to the Reds' side of the deal does seem to make the trade a bit lop-sided, but until we know which prospects are included, we should probably withhold judgment. The Cubs farm system is pretty depleted as it is, and they're still on the hook to provide some kind of compensation to the Red Sox for hiring Theo Epstein. The two prospects they're asking for in addition to Wood might just be an attempt to acquire a little organizational depth, and so they might not be particularly valuable trade chips.

HalKing
12-21-2011, 09:55 AM
I'm going to have to agree that if it is Travis Wood AND two prospects for Marshall, a guy we are only assured of having for one season, then this is a bad deal. I don't even care who the prospects are... two warm bodies and Travis Wood is waaay too much. I was hoping the Reds would give Wood one more year to see if he regains his form. I think Wood's ceiling is higher than Leake or Bailey... but thats just my personal opinion.

TheBigLebowski
12-21-2011, 10:03 AM
I'd be okay with the deal if it was one for one but, considering the years under control for both players (4 - Wood, 1 - Marshall), Wood's upside and value as a lefty starter, I'd be upset if it cost us Wood+. It's like Walt all of a sudden wants to gut the farm.

LeDoux
12-21-2011, 10:04 AM
And, if used judiciously by Baker, this bullpen will be top three in the league.

Thats a pretty big "if." I could see Dusty riding a guy like Marshall into the ground by the ASB.

swaisuc
12-21-2011, 10:05 AM
This would be another example of the Reds "going for it" this year. The bullpen as it stands today is a problem. Maybe a closer is coming, but I will take another really good setup man for a playoff run if we can get him.

I like Wood as a pitcher, but I think the decision has been made that he's not in our top 5. That means that whatever you guys think he was going to do to "breakout" was either happening in Louisville or as a long relief guy. The theme remains the same from the Latos trade. Move from a position of deep overall talent to a team constructed to win in 2012. Marshall > Wood in that regard.

The thing I'm most curious about is if this shows any indication that Chapman may be starting in 2012.

Who Dey Time
12-21-2011, 10:21 AM
This would be another example of the Reds "going for it" this year. The bullpen as it stands today is a problem. Maybe a closer is coming, but I will take another really good setup man for a playoff run if we can get him.

I like Wood as a pitcher, but I think the decision has been made that he's not in our top 5. That means that whatever you guys think he was going to do to "breakout" was either happening in Louisville or as a long relief guy. The theme remains the same from the Latos trade. Move from a position of deep overall talent to a team constructed to win in 2012. Marshall > Wood in that regard.

The thing I'm most curious about is if this shows any indication that Chapman may be starting in 2012.

Completely agree with this. I for one am excited with the Latos deal and would be happy if this trade went down. It's nice to see that the Reds are making moves for the now as opposed to acquiring guys that will be great "down the road."

The only possible negative as I see it is that Marshall will more than likely be a one year guy. Also, by trading Wood, IMO you are essentially stating that Bailey will be on the roster in 2012. I think that, despite his inconsistencies, Bailey could net you a couple of starting caliber position players that this team still needs.

jhu1321
12-21-2011, 10:23 AM
Great if they can extend Marshall......... terrible if he's a one year rental.

Wonder if the Reds are talking to him about using him as the closer in hopes of enticing him to sign a longer deal? That is what most relievers want, right?

RedsBrick
12-21-2011, 11:20 AM
I'm not opposed to this trade, particularily if they give Marshall a shot at the closer role. His numbers are excellent the past couple of years....specifically last year 2.26 era, 75 IP, 17 BB, 79 SO. It's not like Wrigley's a super-friendly pitchers park either.

texasdave
12-21-2011, 11:25 AM
According to Bruce Levine of ESPN, the Cincinnati Reds are poised to hand over southpaw starter Travis Wood and two minor league pitchers to the Chicago Cubs for reliever Sean Marshall.

jmt5887
12-21-2011, 11:26 AM
Appearently Marshall will not be closing if acquired.

John Fay on twitter.

RT @StuBear2789 @johnfayman has Sean marshall ever closed?//I'm hearing that the plan is not him to close

That would sour me a little on the trade unless we go something else in the deal along with Marshall. But i still be for it as I don't think Wood will be a game changer for us that he might be for other teams.

alett12
12-21-2011, 11:26 AM
I'm going to have to agree that if it is Travis Wood AND two prospects for Marshall, a guy we are only assured of having for one season, then this is a bad deal. I don't even care who the prospects are... two warm bodies and Travis Wood is waaay too much. I was hoping the Reds would give Wood one more year to see if he regains his form. I think Wood's ceiling is higher than Leake or Bailey... but thats just my personal opinion.

While i think Wood has a high ceiling, I think that Leake has a ceiling like that of a young greg maddux if you compare velocity, movement, control, and pitch selection. Homer still has a high ceiling however, i think Wood's is higher at this point due to injury concerns for Homer

joshua
12-21-2011, 11:36 AM
I heard that the Reds want Reed Johnson included and the Cubs wants Hamilton and a PTBNL.

texasdave
12-21-2011, 11:40 AM
I heard that the Reds want Reed Johnson included and the Cubs wants Hamilton and a PTBNL.


The Cubs and Reed Johnson have agreed to terms on a one-year contract, according to Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (via Twitter). The deal is pending a physical.Johnson, 35, has spent three of the last four seasons with the Cubs, and is coming off one of his best years. In 266 plate appearances, the veteran hit .309/.348/.467 while spending time at all three outfield positions.
Coming off a down year in 2010 (.657 OPS), Johnson signed a minor league deal for $900K with the Cubs, so the Wasserman Media Group client should be in line for a slight salary bump after his solid 2011.

Cubs just inked Johnson, pending physical.

RedsFan_26
12-21-2011, 11:48 AM
I heard that the Reds want Reed Johnson included and the Cubs wants Hamilton and a PTBNL.

That is ridiculous.. There is nobody outside of Starlin Castro that i would trade hamilton for on the Cubs

code
12-21-2011, 12:12 PM
I would much reather get rid of Bailey then Woods at this point.
Just my 2cents :>

Old NDN
12-21-2011, 12:13 PM
While I like Wood's potential, I believe the Reds have enough MOR starters equal to his ability. As in the Latos deal, Walt is dealing from surplus for a need. I'm not real keen on the idea of giving up too much from the minor leagues as throw-ins, though. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

DirtyBaker
12-21-2011, 12:14 PM
I can see Marshall having a larger impact next year than Wood, potentially as a closer. Marshall's numbers have improved just about every year he's been in the bigs and no gaurentee Wood is in the rotation next year. However, Wood provides depth, he's young, a starter, not a free agent until 2017 and not arb eligible until 2014. There's no reason the Cubs need prospects of top of Wood and I say no deal if these are prospects of value.

code
12-21-2011, 12:15 PM
If Wood is gone then who will help Stubbs learn to bunt? :)

The Rage
12-21-2011, 12:22 PM
Sounds like the Cubs are trying to push the Reds through the media.

brm7675
12-21-2011, 12:23 PM
sorry texas dave I usually agree with you but Masset Arredondo and Ondruszek are garbage

How are they garbage?

jmt5887
12-21-2011, 12:27 PM
sorry texas dave I usually agree with you but Masset Arredondo and Ondruszek are garbage

Massett has some of the best stuff in the BP though he has mental issues sometimes.

Arredondo is recovering from TJ surgery and wasn't back to 100% last year.

Ondrusek is one tough big old pitcher who has great stuff. I love Ondru The Giant.

To say they are garbage is incorrect and just plain stupid.

PhatHead
12-21-2011, 12:29 PM
I heard that the Reds want Reed Johnson included and the Cubs wants Hamilton and a PTBNL.

http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web05/2011/3/18/1/enhanced-buzz-15854-1300424464-1.jpg

brm7675
12-21-2011, 12:44 PM
Great if they can extend Marshall......... terrible if he's a one year rental.

Wonder if the Reds are talking to him about using him as the closer in hopes of enticing him to sign a longer deal? That is what most relievers want, right?

If Marshall leaves after 1 season we get draft pick compensation

jhu1321
12-21-2011, 12:44 PM
If Wood is gone then who will help Stubbs learn to bunt? :)

:laugh:

LeDoux
12-21-2011, 01:02 PM
With a price of Wood + 2, I wonder how much more it would take to land Andrew Bailey. Bailey is under control until 2015.

Who Dey Time
12-21-2011, 01:04 PM
With a price of Wood + 2, I wonder how much more it would take to land Andrew Bailey. Bailey is under control until 2015.

I'm guessing significantly more than Marshall for the reason you list here.

jmt5887
12-21-2011, 01:17 PM
If Marshall leaves after 1 season we get draft pick compensation

No we don't. There is going forward no such thing as Type A and Type B compensation. it will be based on offering a player the Average salary of the top 125 players in MLB. this year it was 12 million. Do You want to offer marshall 12 million? If not we get nothing.

LeDoux
12-21-2011, 01:25 PM
I'm guessing significantly more than Marshall for the reason you list here.

I would agree, but with names like Billy Hamilton being rumoured, I am much less sure.

LegallyMinded
12-21-2011, 01:29 PM
I think this take (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/cubs-reds-discussing-possible-trade/) on the proposed trade sums it up nicely. Wood is destined to be a number 4 or 5 starter, and with 5 other potential starters already on the roster, he was a surplus piece the Reds could move for a valuable addition who could help them win now.

alett12
12-21-2011, 02:26 PM
If the reds trade hamilton for anyone i would be astounded

AintlifeGrande
12-21-2011, 02:30 PM
I like the idea.However I would want a ML ready player to go with Marshall.Cubs do have outfield talent to give,I think.

alett12
12-21-2011, 02:31 PM
If the reds were to get a cubs outfielder i would want the kid out of UC

jmt5887
12-21-2011, 02:56 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/cubs-have-had-talks-with-jeff-francis.html

Cubs Have Had Talks With Jeff Francis
By Luke Adams [December 21 at 11:25am CST]

The Cubs have talked to Jeff Francis about filling a spot in the back end of their rotation, tweets ESPN.com's Jerry Crasnick. Crasnick says the team has also had discussions with Paul Maholm, which we heard last week from Bruce Levine of ESPNChicago.

Multiple reports last night suggested that the Cubs and Reds were close to working out a trade involving Travis Wood and Sean Marshall. If the two sides were to reach an agreement, the Cubs' acquisition of Wood would likely take them out of the running for arms like Francis and Maholm. However, John Fay of the Cincinnati Enquirer hears from a source that no trade is imminent yet.

The Twins, Pirates, Mariners, and Rockies are among the clubs who have been reported to have interest in Francis.

BuckWild03
12-21-2011, 03:57 PM
Sources say Brandon League may now be available...

League would look reeeeal nice in a Reds uni.

brm7675
12-21-2011, 04:07 PM
I have a feeling this deal is not going to happen. Usually if a deal goes down it happens before most know about it and with little talk, this is now out there and I just wonder if the minor leaguers the Cubs want are just a bit to much...

bounty37h
12-21-2011, 04:24 PM
I kinda gotta agree with BRM, dont think this one is going down at this point.

jmt5887
12-21-2011, 04:28 PM
Cubs To Send Sean Marshall To Reds For Travis Wood
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [December 21 at 3:26pm CST]

The Cubs and Reds have agreed in principle to a trade that will send left-handed reliever Sean Marshall to Cincinnati for starter Travis Wood and two minor leaguers, according to Bruce Levine of ESPNChicago.com. The move is pending physicals.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/cubs-to-send-sean-marshall-to-reds-for-travis-wood.html

texasdave
12-21-2011, 04:31 PM
I kinda gotta agree with BRM, dont think this one is going down at this point.

I kinda gotta disagree. :D

Just kiddin'.

Hondo
12-21-2011, 04:32 PM
Cubs To Send Sean Marshall To Reds For Travis Wood
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [December 21 at 3:26pm CST]

The Cubs and Reds have agreed in principle to a trade that will send left-handed reliever Sean Marshall to Cincinnati for starter Travis Wood and two minor leaguers, according to Bruce Levine of ESPNChicago.com. The move is pending physicals.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/cubs-to-send-sean-marshall-to-reds-for-travis-wood.html

Walt is now like "The Over-Pay King" of Major League Baseball...

Trading because you have depth is one thing, but trading just because multiple players are blocked is ridiculous.

I am not opposed to trading these players but not in the same package in 4 for 1 and 3 for 1 swaps.

texasdave
12-21-2011, 04:38 PM
Walt is now like "The Over-Pay King" of Major League Baseball...

Trading because you have depth is one thing, but trading just because multiple players are blocked is ridiculous.

I am not opposed to trading these players but not in the same package in 4 for 1 and 3 for 1 swaps.

Shouldn't we at least wait and see who the two minor leaguers that are being thrown in are?

R_Webb18
12-21-2011, 04:39 PM
my guess the other 2 are just bodies

bounty37h
12-21-2011, 04:44 PM
LO, so much form ym thoughts then....
Am nervous who the 2 MiL's are though.

bounty37h
12-21-2011, 04:45 PM
I kinda gotta disagree. :D

Just kiddin'.

LOL, I was thinking it didn't feel right to say I agree with him as I was typing it, should have known ;)

RedsFan_26
12-21-2011, 04:50 PM
John Fay said that the 2 prospects aren't prospects, their just minor league bodies

TheBigLebowski
12-21-2011, 04:53 PM
Rumors are floating - and they are just rumors, be advised - that Billy Hamilton is one of the minor leaguers. If that's true Jocketty needs to be fired immediately.

brm7675
12-21-2011, 04:53 PM
Walt is now like "The Over-Pay King" of Major League Baseball...

Trading because you have depth is one thing, but trading just because multiple players are blocked is ridiculous.

I am not opposed to trading these players but not in the same package in 4 for 1 and 3 for 1 swaps.

Unless the two minor leagues are say top 10-15 prospects then basically it's Travis for Sean...

brm7675
12-21-2011, 04:54 PM
Rumors are floating - and they are just rumors, be advised - that Billy Hamilton is one of the minor leaguers. If that's true Jocketty needs to be fired immediately.

I would be shocked it's any of the Reds top 10 prospects...

nmculbreth
12-21-2011, 04:55 PM
Shouldn't we at least wait and see who the two minor leaguers that are being thrown in are?

I wasn't wild about Wood for Marshall straight up, so I think they're overpaying even if the other two players included in the deal are marginal prospects. The Reds better hope that their rotation doesn't catch the injury bug because after losing Wood, Maloney and Willis their replacement options outside of Chapman aren't all that appealing.

The Rage
12-21-2011, 04:56 PM
Wood himself is more than enough for Marshall. Anything more and the Reds lost their mind.

R_Webb18
12-21-2011, 04:57 PM
the 2 others are going be minor league players for life

texasdave
12-21-2011, 05:12 PM
Rumor Alert: Just tweeted that the two minor leaguers are Kevin Coddington and Travis Webb.

Just a rumor. Speculation.

TheBigLebowski
12-21-2011, 05:22 PM
Rumor Alert: Just tweeted that the two minor leaguers are Kevin Coddington and Travis Webb.

Just a rumor. Speculation.

Also wild rumors that someone's Mom is somehow involved in the deal.

OGB
12-21-2011, 06:58 PM
Also wild rumors that someone's Mom is somehow involved in the deal.

Ha, agreed.

As long as people are going to be tossing out ridiculous, uncited hearsay, I'm going to mention that I heard the Reds are receiving thirty million dollars and the statue of Haray Carey in the deal.

texasdave
12-21-2011, 07:35 PM
The Cubs tried to throw in some old goat but Walt wisely refused.

Theo tried to get over on Walt. He suggested Billy Goat for Billy Hamilton. :laugh:

UPRedsFan
12-22-2011, 09:30 AM
Ok, so what will we have for starting pitching insurance now?

Cueto
Latos
Leake
Arroyo
Bailey

Chapman

Since we're pretty sure at this point Bailey can't start 30 games, who fills in? And who else fills in if Cueto goes down or someone else goes down?

I guess there is always Lecure, but he's becoming pretty valuable in middle relief. Ideas of what they'll do?

NCCardfan
12-22-2011, 11:42 AM
Jocketty did the same thin at his former team, I really hate it for CIN in 3-4 years when the farm is barren.

Walt gets on a spending spree and loses his mind, that sucks!

I don't follow Reds baseball as closely as y'all but let me get this straight:

The Reds have gotten:
Matt Latos & Sean Marshall

and have given up:
Travis Wood
Edinson Volquez
Brad Boxberger
Yonder Alonso
Yasmani Grandal
+2 more minor leaguers that are not named yet.

It sure sounds like Walt got jobbed but hope it doesn't turn out that way. 2012 will be a fun ride but 2014 & 2015 may be tough to swallow.

I hope this doesn't sound trollish because it wasn't meant that way by any means.

Pony Boy
12-22-2011, 12:14 PM
Some good info from Fay this morning:

-speculation that the Reds may have a long-term deal worked out with Marshall.

-Reds informant says he won't be the closer.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/12/22/whats-the-marshall-plan/

Old NDN
12-22-2011, 12:38 PM
Why all the secrecy/delay on the minor leaguers involved?

sdwagers
12-22-2011, 12:59 PM
Some good info from Fay this morning:

-speculation that the Reds may have a long-term deal worked out with Marshall.

-Reds informant says he won't be the closer.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/12/22/whats-the-marshall-plan/

this makes sense actually. If we got Marshall for say 3 years at reasonable salary (via trade and extension) for Wood, Coddington and Webb - this turns into a great deal for the Reds.

sdwagers
12-22-2011, 01:01 PM
Jocketty did the same thin at his former team, I really hate it for CIN in 3-4 years when the farm is barren.

Walt gets on a spending spree and loses his mind, that sucks!

I don't follow Reds baseball as closely as y'all but let me get this straight:

The Reds have gotten:
Matt Latos & Sean Marshall

and have given up:
Travis Wood
Edinson Volquez
Brad Boxberger
Yonder Alonso
Yasmani Grandal
+2 more minor leaguers that are not named yet.

It sure sounds like Walt got jobbed but hope it doesn't turn out that way. 2012 will be a fun ride but 2014 & 2015 may be tough to swallow.

I hope this doesn't sound trollish because it wasn't meant that way by any means.

2012 and 2013 should really fun because Votto is under contact... most of the better prospects in the system should be getting here by 2014 and 2015 so no worries here. It's going to be alright, REALLY.

OGB
12-22-2011, 03:03 PM
I understand your point, but it still sounds silly to me. At what point during Jocketty's tenure or since he left have the Cards been a bad team? How many championships do they have?
The Reds farm system can be continually squeezed dry for the next decade if it means they have the success StL has had in the past decade.

Jocketty did the same thin at his former team, I really hate it for CIN in 3-4 years when the farm is barren.

Walt gets on a spending spree and loses his mind, that sucks!

I don't follow Reds baseball as closely as y'all but let me get this straight:

The Reds have gotten:
Matt Latos & Sean Marshall

and have given up:
Travis Wood
Edinson Volquez
Brad Boxberger
Yonder Alonso
Yasmani Grandal
+2 more minor leaguers that are not named yet.

It sure sounds like Walt got jobbed but hope it doesn't turn out that way. 2012 will be a fun ride but 2014 & 2015 may be tough to swallow.

I hope this doesn't sound trollish because it wasn't meant that way by any means.

TheBigLebowski
12-22-2011, 06:35 PM
2012 and 2013 should really fun because Votto is under contact... most of the better prospects in the system should be getting here by 2014 and 2015 so no worries here. It's going to be alright, REALLY.

Um, Walt's gutting the van. We have no confirmation as to the prospects headed the Cubs' way but if they're of any value, we're no longer the proud owners of one of the most talent-rich farm systems in baseball.

powersackers
12-22-2011, 07:08 PM
The prospects are not announced yet, likely because if we extend Marshall the quality of the 2 guys in return will go up. If we don't agree, they get warm bodies.

This offseason Jocketty has improved this team by 7 WAR if Latos and Marshall just do what they did last season. Assuming we get Cordero or equivilant and a LF things are looking pretty bright for 2012-14.

texasdave
12-23-2011, 01:20 AM
From Twitter:
Really regretting I didn't retweet the Cubs fan rooting for Sean Marshall to fail his physical. Something about an esophagus? He passed it.

Crumbley
12-23-2011, 04:41 AM
Wood was brutal last year, got his head kicked in at Louisville. Another good trade. Ace reliever more valuable than #6-#7 starter.

NCCardfan
12-23-2011, 07:16 AM
I understand your point, but it still sounds silly to me. At what point during Jocketty's tenure or since he left have the Cards been a bad team? How many championships do they have?
The Reds farm system can be continually squeezed dry for the next decade if it means they have the success StL has had in the past decade.

At the end of Walt's reign in STL, the ML team had talent but there was no MLB ready depth in Memphis due to some of his trades. When Carp went down for Tommy John, there was no MLB ready pitchers and our #4 & #5 starters were just getting flat hammered. When something happened to a position player starter then the fill-in's were painful to watch. STL's lineup was like the playing card discussion in "My Cousin Vinny" - looks good but was paper thin.
With CIN, he's getting rid of some fairly decent prospects and if a player goes down then your call-up player may make you cringe sometimes. It's easy to overlook what Louisville's roster will look like in 2012 & will it be better or worse than 2011. I do not have a lot of knowledge about your minor league players and would like to know if Walt is picking the support cast apart piece by piece.

NCCardfan
12-23-2011, 07:19 AM
I understand your point, but it still sounds silly to me. At what point during Jocketty's tenure or since he left have the Cards been a bad team? How many championships do they have?
The Reds farm system can be continually squeezed dry for the next decade if it means they have the success StL has had in the past decade.


Um, Walt's gutting the van. We have no confirmation as to the prospects headed the Cubs' way but if they're of any value, we're no longer the proud owners of one of the most talent-rich farm systems in baseball.

This is what I was trying to say. While STL did have success the home-grown talent wasn't in Memphis for a couple of years. I hope Walt doesn't drain Louisville dry.

texasdave
12-23-2011, 10:45 AM
The Cubs will received Wood, Dave Sappelt, and Ronald Torreyes from the Reds for Marshall, reports ESPN's Keith Law (on Twitter). The trade will be announced later today.
Sappelt, a 24-year-old outfielder, hit .243/.289/.318 in 118 plate appearances for Cincinnati last year, his big league debut. He produced a .313/.377/.458 batting line in 336 plate appearances for their Triple-A affiliate in 2011. Torreyes, a 19-year-old infielder, hit .356/.398/.457 in 306 plate appearances at the Low Class-A level this past season. Baseball America ranked Sappelt and Torreyes as the Reds' 20th and 22nd best prospects in last year's Prospect Handbook, respectively.

No mention of an extension. WTH?!?

Patience, Grasshopper.

Tuff Nut
12-23-2011, 10:49 AM
Wood was brutal last year, got his head kicked in at Louisville. Another good trade. Ace reliever more valuable than #6-#7 starter.
With Torreyes and Sappelt as the 2 other players..this trade is unfavorable.

izzy's dad
12-23-2011, 11:01 AM
I am no longer in favor of this trade. I just threw up on myself.

LeDoux
12-23-2011, 11:13 AM
:(

UCBrownsfan
12-23-2011, 11:21 AM
This is what I was trying to say. While STL did have success the home-grown talent wasn't in Memphis for a couple of years. I hope Walt doesn't drain Louisville dry.

I think people forget how many guys we have 23-25 years old, because a few have been up a while, It's time to open a new window of prospects, really Grandal is the only one I suspect will be on a prospect list next year, as most are major league ready. It seems to me value for Frazier, Cozart, and Heisey may have diminished from overcooking

Traded
Volquez(28), Wood(24), Alonso(24), Grandal(23), Boxberger(23)

Likely 2012 Roster guys:
Starting Pitchers
Bailey(25), Latos(24), Leake(24), Cueto(25), Chapman(23)
Field
Bruce(24), Mesoraco(23), Sappelt(24), Fransisco(24)

Left over top prospects - Possible top 10 next year
Corcino(21), Hamilton(21), Stephenson(18), Gregorious (21), Cingrani(22) LaMarre(23) (55 SB's last year), Y Rodriguez(19), Soto(22), Torreyes(19), H Rodriguez (21), Duran(20), Lotzkar(22), Sulbaran(22), Rosa(18)

Wow... Sappelt and Torreyes that diminishes my point some.

LeDoux
12-23-2011, 11:30 AM
I will go back to my earlier question- how much more would it take to land Andrew Bailey for 3 years? I can't think the price would be that much greater.

TheBigLebowski
12-23-2011, 12:13 PM
Walt Jocketty is an idiot.

brad1176
12-23-2011, 12:16 PM
I was all about the Latos trade, but this one baffles me. How do you give up Wood, Sappelt, and Torreyes for a setup guy?? I can only hope that he has some grand scheme going on for a left fielder......

Tuff Nut
12-23-2011, 12:19 PM
Looking more and more like it is indeed Sappelt and Torreyes.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111222&content_id=26224746&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

PhatHead
12-23-2011, 12:35 PM
Walt Jocketty is an idiot.

Jocketty has been in MLB front offices for well over 30 years. There is a reason he is there and we are here. All we see are the headlines. We have no idea what is going on behind the curtain.

I don't care how the dinner is prepared, as long as it ends up being good.

Pitchout
12-23-2011, 01:16 PM
I agree; something else is going on in Jocketty's master plan and we just have to wait patiently while he plays this out. The inclusion of Sappelt makes me pretty sure WJ has something else going on.

powersackers
12-23-2011, 01:25 PM
Wow, two potential .300 hitters and a 3-4 SP for a setup guy? My jaw litteraly dropped when I read Sappelt and Torreyes names. I've seen them both play extensively at Dayton, they both hit so darn well.

All will be forgiven if we get Madson and a AS caliber LF and win a WS in the next 2 years. Otherwise Theo pulled one over on Walt.

BLEEDS
12-23-2011, 01:31 PM
Put me in the group that says you don't have to "win" the trade for it to make sense from a big picture perspective.

I don't think we "won" the trade for Latos, but we could afford not to - a blocked 1b/dh, blocked at best 3rd in line catching prospect, and a reliever, I don't even count Volquez - but we increased our big league club.

Same with this trade - really? People are losing sleep over a low A 19yo undersized SS prospect, and a 5th OF at best, for arguably the best reliever in baseball, who will likely gives us a 3 WAR this year.
Talk about overvaluing prospects! That's the kind of thinking that kept is in the doldrums for over a decade...

People want the FO to make trades to help the team contend for the playoffs, and then cry over trading away chum for "what might be" in 3-4 years. Incredible.

PEACE

-BLEEDS


Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

BLEEDS
12-23-2011, 01:41 PM
Dbl entry

Mr Larkin
12-23-2011, 01:53 PM
Marshall helps this team right now. That is the idea. We gave up a "potential" starter, one that would not be in our rotation this season, and two players that did not figure into the big picture for an arm that instantly makes the team better.
Finally, I see hope for a real contender in Cincy, not just for a season, but for many seasons.

KYRedLeg
12-23-2011, 02:05 PM
The price tag seems high, but PhatHead and Pitchout said, there is something else going on here. I like the other rumor floating around about Phillips in a multiteam swap. Sappelt was under-whelming-to-infuriating for me last year; not crazy about losing Wood, though...

A month from now, I'll feel more able to evaluate the offseason, and Jocketty's actions. This all feels like a work in progress that we're trying to judge before it's even finished.

goreds2
12-23-2011, 09:51 PM
Put me in the group that says you don't have to "win" the trade for it to make sense from a big picture perspective.

I don't think we "won" the trade for Latos, but we could afford not to - a blocked 1b/dh, blocked at best 3rd in line catching prospect, and a reliever, I don't even count Volquez - but we increased our big league club.

Same with this trade - really? People are losing sleep over a low A 19yo undersized SS prospect, and a 5th OF at best, for arguably the best reliever in baseball, who will likely gives us a 3 WAR this year.
Talk about overvaluing prospects! That's the kind of thinking that kept is in the doldrums for over a decade...

People want the FO to make trades to help the team contend for the playoffs, and then cry over trading away chum for "what might be" in 3-4 years. Incredible.PEACE

-BLEEDS


Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

http://pegasusnews.com/media/img/photos/2010/09/26/thumbs/crowd.jpg.728x520_q85.jpg

HalKing
12-24-2011, 06:44 AM
Guess my only thoughts suitable for the internet on the Marshall trade is this... If the Reds only have the services of Sean Marshall for one season then this is a really bad trade. If they lock him up for a least a couple of additional seasons then its probably not too bad. Still think the Cubs got the better of it, but time tells all.

NCCardfan
12-24-2011, 07:35 AM
I think people forget how many guys we have 23-25 years old, because a few have been up a while, It's time to open a new window of prospects, really Grandal is the only one I suspect will be on a prospect list next year, as most are major league ready. It seems to me value for Frazier, Cozart, and Heisey may have diminished from overcooking

Traded
Volquez(28), Wood(24), Alonso(24), Grandal(23), Boxberger(23)

Likely 2012 Roster guys:
Starting Pitchers
Bailey(25), Latos(24), Leake(24), Cueto(25), Chapman(23)
Field
Bruce(24), Mesoraco(23), Sappelt(24), Fransisco(24)

Left over top prospects - Possible top 10 next year
Corcino(21), Hamilton(21), Stephenson(18), Gregorious (21), Cingrani(22) LaMarre(23) (55 SB's last year), Y Rodriguez(19), Soto(22), Torreyes(19), H Rodriguez (21), Duran(20), Lotzkar(22), Sulbaran(22), Rosa(18)

Wow... Sappelt and Torreyes that diminishes my point some.

Thanks for helping me out with Reds minor leaguers knowledge. You guys have quite a farm system, hope Walt doesn't lose it all for a 1-2 year 'run for it' campaign. He's working on it pretty much every trade. Do y'all think he's done or what? Will the Reds pony up and give Votto what he deserves in 2 years? Will it matter if the farm is dry? Just wanting to know what's in your heads.

malcontent
12-25-2011, 12:10 AM
I'd be interested in seeing if Marshall would like to try starting again.

I think the Chapman experiment is bound to fail.

Larry Schuler
12-26-2011, 01:35 PM
I am a fan of these trades.

I have to ignore my Reds-colored view and realize that while I've spent a lot of time fantasizing about and investing in the potential of Wood and Sappelt, they are both low ceiling players who can be replaced easily. When I look at the #6 starters and AAAA outfielders on any other teams rosters I have enough of a healthy distance to see that they aren't untouchable and their worth is much less in the grand scheme of things.

That Walt Jocketty was able to turn troubled parts and redundant parts into high impact major league players is really admirable. In the last 10 years of Reds baseball we have had a thousand prospective major leaguers who got 600 at bats or 30 starts but very few "major leaguers". Rolen and Cabrera, while past their primes, brought this team their first taste of major league quality players in several years. In the past, we pinned a lot of hopes and dreams on the Denorfias and Encarnacions and Dickersons and Elizardo Ramirezes because our team was thin but now we can finally manage to view them for what they are. Spare parts that can be helpful to a rebuilding team but are expendable on a good team.

Farnsie
12-26-2011, 02:01 PM
Looking at the results above I think the Reds are going to regret trading away 4 World Series MVPs for Mat Latos & one year of a lefty specialist. Hard to swallow, especially after the momentum the Reds built last year.

But I was looking forward too see Wood and Sappelt split the World Series MVP......

Larry Schuler
12-26-2011, 04:13 PM
Now I am hoping Latos and Marshall can split it!

Farnsie
12-26-2011, 05:02 PM
Now I am hoping Latos and Marshall can split it!

Hear hear

The Rage
12-26-2011, 09:04 PM
I am a fan of these trades.

I have to ignore my Reds-colored view and realize that while I've spent a lot of time fantasizing about and investing in the potential of Wood and Sappelt, they are both low ceiling players who can be replaced easily. When I look at the #6 starters and AAAA outfielders on any other teams rosters I have enough of a healthy distance to see that they aren't untouchable and their worth is much less in the grand scheme of things.

That Walt Jocketty was able to turn troubled parts and redundant parts into high impact major league players is really admirable. In the last 10 years of Reds baseball we have had a thousand prospective major leaguers who got 600 at bats or 30 starts but very few "major leaguers". Rolen and Cabrera, while past their primes, brought this team their first taste of major league quality players in several years. In the past, we pinned a lot of hopes and dreams on the Denorfias and Encarnacions and Dickersons and Elizardo Ramirezes because our team was thin but now we can finally manage to view them for what they are. Spare parts that can be helpful to a rebuilding team but are expendable on a good team.

Nothing personally, but I don't see any hopes pinned on guys like Ramirez or Dickerson or even Denorfia. They were always at best, pin starters. They weren't the bone. Only Edwin was hoped to be a star. Alot of people think Wood could be a bone. If he is, the Reds messed up bad. Real real bad.