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wvreds
12-23-2011, 12:04 PM
According to Keith Law the minor leagures going the cubs are Dave Sappelt and Ronald Torreyes all I know is Walt better have extended Marshall and confident that we will be signing a power righty outfielder soon.

jhu1321
12-23-2011, 12:08 PM
I loved the trade with Wood and 2 career minor leaguers but not with Sappelt. Unless they extended Mashall.

Farnsie
12-23-2011, 12:09 PM
Yeah I'm not gonna feel sad until it's official, even then I'm still glad we have Marshall. Altough, I hope the next moves come via free agency cause it seems where running a little short on players.

brm7675
12-23-2011, 12:13 PM
Dave at best is a 4th outfielder ....

jhu1321
12-23-2011, 12:20 PM
Torreyes is 19 and hit .356 at Dayton last year. Sappelt may be a 4th outfielder but can play in any field and could probably hit .280 - .300 after a little seasoning.

RedsBrick
12-23-2011, 12:23 PM
The guy could apparently rake in the minors. Didn't seem to translate to the majors, albeit a small sample size.

wvreds
12-23-2011, 12:26 PM
Would this not mean we must be going to make an out of nowhere big splash for a LF?? IT almost has to be the case right?

jhu1321
12-23-2011, 12:30 PM
Would this not mean we must be going to make an out of nowhere big splash for a LF?? IT almost has to be the case right?

Who's left in the market? If it's via trade, who are we going to trade?

wvreds
12-23-2011, 12:32 PM
Thats what i mean no more FA and no players left to trade? IT looks like will have same OF as last year

Old NDN
12-23-2011, 12:46 PM
Wow...didn't see that one (Sappelt) coming. There's got to be something else in the works. Let's wait and see the final piece of work (roster) before pi**ing and moaning too much.

RedsBrick
12-23-2011, 12:52 PM
If Sappelt is indeed gone, that leaves just 4 OFers on the 40-man roster.

Combing throught the still unsigned FAs....Cody Ross wouldn't be a bad pickup. He's had some decent pop in his bat, hits from the right side and can play all OF spots.

Nathan
12-23-2011, 12:54 PM
Interestingly enough, the 40 man Roster is inching closer and closer to a 25 man roster. He's down to 36.

(Minus Grandal, Alonso, Volquez, Sappelt, Wood. Plus Marshall and Latos.)

I wonder if there's cash coming the Reds' way?

jhu1321
12-23-2011, 01:00 PM
If Sappelt is indeed gone, that leaves just 4 OFers on the 40-man roster.

Combing throught the still unsigned FAs....Cody Ross wouldn't be a bad pickup. He's had some decent pop in his bat, hits from the right side and can play all OF spots.

Please tell me it's not Cody Ross.:thumbdown:

Ohayou
12-23-2011, 01:00 PM
Random guy on MLBTR:


I know a friend who is in scouting and talks with agents..he told me we would have a reliever by the end of the week and now we have marshal. Talked to him yesterday and evidently since we can't sign phillips long term we are looking to trade him. I really hope he was misinformed.

:lol:

Nathan
12-23-2011, 01:01 PM
If Sappelt is indeed gone, that leaves just 4 OFers on the 40-man roster.



Francisco and Frazier can play OF too. The rate he's going, they will be the next to go. It seems like Walt's trading all the depth to go for it this year.

texasdave
12-23-2011, 01:05 PM
Interestingly enough, the 40 man Roster is inching closer and closer to a 25 man roster. He's down to 36.

(Minus Grandal, Alonso, Volquez, Sappelt, Wood. Plus Marshall and Latos.)

I wonder if there's cash coming the Reds' way?

Got to make room for dreck like Ross, Ankiel, Theriot, Cordero etc. etc. etc.

Nathan
12-23-2011, 01:08 PM
Got to make room for dreck like Ross, Ankiel, Theriot, Cordero etc. etc. etc.

If they sign garbage players, they are seriously taking 3 steps back right now. He has to be up to something, and I hope it's bigger than players like those.

TheBigLebowski
12-23-2011, 01:11 PM
This deal is an absolute abomination. Walt's been bent over twice in the past week...there is no excuse for this. Take his finger away from the button. Please.

vin19
12-23-2011, 01:19 PM
are the cubs going to pick up marshalls salry??? does he think heisey/fransisco will be LF. I still don't see this team getting past philly in the playoffs!

Nathan
12-23-2011, 01:20 PM
Where's FireDusty? I'm expecting his major blow up over this deal. If he thinks Latos was an overpay...

RedsBrick
12-23-2011, 01:20 PM
This deal is an absolute abomination. Walt's been bent over twice in the past week...there is no excuse for this. Take his finger away from the button. Please.

I guess it depends on how you look at it. I think this team is more competitive for 2012 now than it was 10 days ago. If Marshall is extended beyond 2012 then the same goes for 2013 as well, IMO.

brad1176
12-23-2011, 01:21 PM
By trading Sappelt, I wonder if Walt's going to make a run at Cespedes? He HAS to have something big up his sleeve....I hope....

bigredmechanism
12-23-2011, 01:22 PM
By trading Sappelt, I wonder if Walt's going to make a run at Cespedes? He HAS to have something big up his sleeve....I hope....

I'm okay with that. The guy is a beast from a physical standpoint.

brm7675
12-23-2011, 01:24 PM
This deal is an absolute abomination. Walt's been bent over twice in the past week...there is no excuse for this. Take his finger away from the button. Please.

Bent over? Really step away from the computer monitor and take a deep breath.

The DARK
12-23-2011, 01:26 PM
By trading Sappelt, I wonder if Walt's going to make a run at Cespedes? He HAS to have something big up his sleeve....I hope....

If only the cards fell that way. With Latos nearing arbitration and Marshall a free agent in 2013, it seems like we're adding a salary burden rather than shedding it. I was hopeful about this team's future beyond 2012, but now I'm not so sure.

brad1176
12-23-2011, 01:29 PM
I just don't know who he might target in a trade for a LF, that would be an impactful player for us. Trading Sappelt tells me he's going for a FA LF, and I hope it's not another piece from the Cardinals scrap heap (Ankiel, Ludwick)

markymark69
12-23-2011, 01:55 PM
Just a few thoughts on this trade. I liked Sappelt, but I think if the success of the 2012 Reds hinged on him, then we have much bigger problems. Not that he was without merit. Perhaps, someone like Denis Phipps (I think that's his name) is progressing a little more than we know.

As of right now, it looks like Heisey will get his shot, which is what a lot of people wanted before the Sappelt's and Alonso's of the world became of the flavor of the month.

As far as Wood, I find it interesting that Walt removed the two most disappointing pitchers from the 2011 season (Volquez and Wood) in a week's time.

I have to admit I do not know much about Torreyes, it sounds like he hit well in the low minors, but it's hard for me to get upset about losing someone so far away from the majors.

brm7675
12-23-2011, 02:06 PM
Lets also consider this...lets say for whatever reason come the trading deadline the Reds are out of it for whatever reason...what do you think the market will be for Marshall and the odds we could pull back some decent prospects for him....

texasdave
12-23-2011, 02:09 PM
No offense but I'd rather not consider the Reds being out of it by the trading deadline before the season even starts.

Pete4prez
12-23-2011, 02:10 PM
Wow..... The Latos and Marshall trades have left our farm system empty!! If we dont sign Marshall long term this trade could be disasterous!!

Tuff Nut
12-23-2011, 02:11 PM
Lets also consider this...lets say for whatever reason come the trading deadline the Reds are out of it for whatever reason...what do you think the market will be for Marshall and the odds we could pull back some decent prospects for him....
That's one option, I hope we don't have to cross.

Girevik
12-23-2011, 02:23 PM
I like the moves so far, for a couple of reasons.

One, I always put more value on a proven player than prospects. I think a lot of people over value prospects by valuing them at the very top of what they could some day be.

Two, the Reds have a short window and are trying to capitalize on it now. They may not have either Phillips or Votto for long, so I say go all in and try to win while you can rather than playing it safe and planning for life after. Go for the ring while it's in reach.

brm7675
12-23-2011, 02:40 PM
I like the moves so far, for a couple of reasons.

One, I always put more value on a proven player than prospects. I think a lot of people over value prospects by valuing them at the very top of what they could some day be.

Two, the Reds have a short window and are trying to capitalize on it now. They may not have either Phillips or Votto for long, so I say go all in and try to win while you can rather than playing it safe and planning for life after. Go for the ring while it's in reach.

Why do people keep saying the Reds have a "short" window?

takealeake
12-23-2011, 02:43 PM
I like the moves so far, for a couple of reasons.

One, I always put more value on a proven player than prospects. I think a lot of people over value prospects by valuing them at the very top of what they could some day be.

Two, the Reds have a short window and are trying to capitalize on it now. They may not have either Phillips or Votto for long, so I say go all in and try to win while you can rather than playing it safe and planning for life after. Go for the ring while it's in reach.

Yup exactly. You would think some of these people would see how foolish they are or how many times the Reds prospect system has flamed out with players to stop thinking that these guys who are nothing more than spare parts aren't anything.

Or at least when they see this stuff announced on ESPN and the actual stats posted they would have a reality check. Wood, 5 plus ERA last year. Sappelt, career minor leaguer so far, .243 in the majors. Marshall? One of the best relievers in baseball who could easily be closer.

Girevik
12-23-2011, 02:44 PM
Why do people keep saying the Reds have a "short" window?

Because they will quite likely lose Phillips and most probably lose Votto over the next couple of years. If that happens, the very best you could hope for if you got VERY, VERY lucky would be to replace them with guys that turn out just as good. This means best case is you don't get any better than you are now and most likely will be worse.

Try to win now while you have the horses and can actually improve the team.

takealeake
12-23-2011, 02:47 PM
Because they will quite likely lose Phillips and most probably lose Votto over the next couple of years. If that happens, the very best you could hope for if you got VERY, VERY lucky would be to replace them with guys that turn out just as good. This means best case is you don't get any better than you are now and most likely will be worse.

Try to win now while you have the horses and can actually improve the team.

And even if neither guy is lost, they're going to get pay raises so big that the Reds won't have enough money to sign other players for just about forever to be honest. It will be the Griffey hamstrung years all over again. Reds need to win now while everyone is fairly cheap to also hopefully get fan interest going in Cincinnati where people seem like they couldn't care less about anything anymore.

brm7675
12-23-2011, 03:00 PM
Because they will quite likely lose Phillips and most probably lose Votto over the next couple of years. If that happens, the very best you could hope for if you got VERY, VERY lucky would be to replace them with guys that turn out just as good. This means best case is you don't get any better than you are now and most likely will be worse.

Try to win now while you have the horses and can actually improve the team.

So we lose Phillips and Votto, are you saying we can't replace them? I mean our pitching staff is young and we have other good young players? To me a team with a short window are the Cards....

brm7675
12-23-2011, 03:00 PM
And even if neither guy is lost, they're going to get pay raises so big that the Reds won't have enough money to sign other players for just about forever to be honest. It will be the Griffey hamstrung years all over again. Reds need to win now while everyone is fairly cheap to also hopefully get fan interest going in Cincinnati where people seem like they couldn't care less about anything anymore.

How do the Rays keep winning? Or the Twins?

takealeake
12-23-2011, 03:07 PM
How do the Rays keep winning? Or the Twins?

Twins weren't winning last I checked, and the Rays having control over a lot of young players cheap who do great things really early in their career is why they improved.

If Bailey panned out to live up to his #1 prospect in all of baseball tag a few years ago instead of being an oft injured middling #5 starter, along with Bruce being Votto esque with his top prospect tag as well, and if Volquez has kept his stuff together before the injury/roid suspension, then hell yeah, we would have probably been BETTER than the Rays.

So yeah, it takes a lot of what if's to land to be the Rays. We didn't hit those what if's, so look where we are now.

Todd Gack
12-23-2011, 03:28 PM
Bent over? Really step away from the computer monitor and take a deep breath.

We traded a 24 year old start, possible LF starter, and low level minor leaguer for a set-up man.

How in the world is this is a good deal? I could drive down to the local Kroger and pick up a decent reliever if I wanted.

Nathan
12-23-2011, 03:35 PM
We traded a 24 year old start, possible LF starter, and low level minor leaguer for a set-up man.

How in the world is this is a good deal? I could drive down to the local Kroger and pick up a decent reliever if I wanted.

I've worked for Kroger, and I can assure you that you can't find a decent reliever there for sale. ;)

brm7675
12-23-2011, 03:48 PM
We traded a 24 year old start, possible LF starter, and low level minor leaguer for a set-up man.

How in the world is this is a good deal? I could drive down to the local Kroger and pick up a decent reliever if I wanted.

You really don't consider Sapplet a ML starter do you? As for the minor league 2nd basemen, he is 19, has like 1 and a half seasons under his belt, he might sniff the majors maybe in 14 or 15?

As for Wood, he is a possible good 3/4 guy in a rotation, who right now has no where to fit in Cincy so he would sit in Louisville. We got a shutdown reliever...I do the deal again in a heart beat...pitching wins...

smixsell
12-23-2011, 04:44 PM
Would this not mean we must be going to make an out of nowhere big splash for a LF?? IT almost has to be the case right?

It sure looks that wayto me.

OGB
12-23-2011, 05:07 PM
I certainly don't love this trade, but I want to second what someone else mentioned about prospects. Think back to every trade we've made since about 1995. How many times have we given up a stud player? How many times have we gotten one back? The best player they ever acquired was Paul Konerko, who they turned around and traded for the second best guy they acquired, Mike Cameron. Who are 3 and 4, probably Sean Casey an
d Dimitri Young.

That same list is flooded with names like Matt Maloney, Ed Yarnall, Wily Mo Pena, and Brandon Claussen.

How many times have we traded a prospect that went on to do anything? I mentioned Konerko. Outside of him, theres BJ Ryan and thats about it. I remember people losing their minds when we traded Mark Lewis and CJ Nitkowski for David Wells.

DocRed
12-23-2011, 05:07 PM
Dave at best is a 4th outfielder ....

this....

The Rage
12-23-2011, 05:46 PM
I certainly don't love this trade, but I want to second what someone else mentioned about prospects. Think back to every trade we've made since about 1995. How many times have we given up a stud player? How many times have we gotten one back? The best player they ever acquired was Paul Konerko, who they turned around and traded for the second best guy they acquired, Mike Cameron. Who are 3 and 4, probably Sean Casey an
d Dimitri Young.

That same list is flooded with names like Matt Maloney, Ed Yarnall, Wily Mo Pena, and Brandon Claussen.

How many times have we traded a prospect that went on to do anything? I mentioned Konerko. Outside of him, theres BJ Ryan and thats about it. I remember people losing their minds when we traded Mark Lewis and CJ Nitkowski for David Wells.

Yeah, but because of being small market, the Reds don't trade many prospects and Bowden couldn't draft many good ones. We will see in the future.

Another point about the trade. It was inter-divisional. That was probably why it was so steep in price.

Girevik
12-24-2011, 11:19 AM
So we lose Phillips and Votto, are you saying we can't replace them? I mean our pitching staff is young and we have other good young players? To me a team with a short window are the Cards....

Replace and MVP and the best 2nd baseman in the game? As I said, maybe if you are VERY VERY lucky you can find guys to match their production, but you're the odds of that are slim. So basically your choices are you hang onto Alonso and HOPE he's another Votto and break even, or trade him for a guy to play WITH Votto and give you a better chance of winning now.

I've got no problem trying to win now rather than banking on a prospect to be an all-star player.

malcontent
12-25-2011, 01:07 AM
Why do people keep saying the Reds have a "short" window?
Because now, they do?

DirtyBaker
12-25-2011, 01:47 AM
Probably up to Votto right now to determine if the Reds' window is short. Right now the big league club looks better than last year. TOR starter, no gomes, and a proven set up man added without costing much money. I'm hopeful there's enough there to get either Phillips or Votto playing beyond the next couple years.

There's plenty of Dave Sappelts in baseball that hit waivers to give the AA and AAA teams something to restock with over time. The time was now to push the chips in with Pujols gone and Fielder contemplating it.

Torreyes hurts, but the kid is 19. He could be the 2B of the future if Phillips had 2-3 years left on his contract, but Phillips could walk at the end of the season. No chance Torreyes will be ready to play 2B for the Reds in 2013.

Wood should have been all it took to get this deal done, but it doesn't hurt the Reds system too much for how much it helps the big league club. The moves seem very calculated and could all be worth it in the end.

DaytonFlyer
12-28-2011, 09:32 AM
If the Cubs have to start Sappelt on a regular basis, they have some major issues.

freestyle55
12-28-2011, 11:56 AM
If the Cubs have to start Sappelt on a regular basis, they have some major issues.

They're the Cubs, major issues is their middle name :)