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View Full Version : One Man's Larkin Opinion



mikemo14
01-08-2012, 11:17 PM
As a Red's fan since the early seventies I feel like I am missing something when I hear people say Larkin is a shoo-in hall of famer. The Larkin I followed for many years would have been a no doubt hall of famer had he been able to stay healthy. However he averaged only 120 games a year his last TEN years. He and Griffey Jr's inability to stay healthy and the fact that they made up over 50% of the teams payroll set the Reds back for many years. I remember a guy who refused any notion of a position switch that may have made his team better. I remember a very selfish player towards the end of his career. I remember a guy that tore his captains logo off of his jersey because he didn't agree with a front office decision.. I also remember a guy who though has never been linked to steroids, went off and hit 33 homers in one year after barely reaching 20 only once before in his career.I know there are a lot of Larkin supporters here, but I for one would much rather be waiting tomorrow for Dave Concepcion, a true hall of famer in my opinion to get the call. Ready, Aim, Fire.

RedsBrick
01-09-2012, 12:06 AM
I would love for Concepcion to get the call! But I think it's more romantic than reality, unfortunately.

Fact of matter is Larkin did have better numbers at the plate.

Larry Schuler
01-09-2012, 04:58 AM
Take it easy on mikemo everyone. He's just sharing his opinion. No need for name calling, he's a Reds fan like you and me. :beerme:

mroby85
01-09-2012, 09:35 AM
Barry Larkin is the best player i've ever seen the Reds have until Joey Votto got here. Also, you should thank him for the tantrum he threw when the Reds were unloading all their players, I think by tearing off his captain C he was actually showing leadership, and pushing the front office to win. Shortly after that tantrum was when we acquired Greg Vaughn and Griffey if I remember correctly. Granted, the Griffey trade didn't work out well, but no one in the world thought it was going to turn out the way it did. I loved Larkin, I'll give you that he could be considered a selfish player, but I doubt there are many great players that couldn't be considered that. He spent his entire career in Cincinnati, when he most likely could've gotten a bigger contract elsewhere, so that shows some selflessness, and he also courted Griffey to Cincinnati, which again didn't work out, but seemed great at the time. I'd vote for Larkin in a heartbeat, if he's not a HOFer than neither is Derek Jeter. Also, its ridiculous to accuse someone of steroids because they had a season with above average power numbers.

takealeake
01-09-2012, 03:48 PM
When someone's stats are still HOF shoo in after all those injuries, it makes them MORE impressive IMO, not less. Regardless of how many games he did or didn't play, all his stats and accolades stack up well with any shortstop in the Hall.

Krawhitham
01-09-2012, 04:08 PM
As a Red's fan since the early seventies I feel like I am missing something when I hear people say Larkin is a shoo-in hall of famer. The Larkin I followed for many years would have been a no doubt hall of famer had he been able to stay healthy. However he averaged only 120 games a year his last TEN years. He and Griffey Jr's inability to stay healthy and the fact that they made up over 50% of the teams payroll set the Reds back for many years. I remember a guy who refused any notion of a position switch that may have made his team better. I remember a very selfish player towards the end of his career. I remember a guy that tore his captains logo off of his jersey because he didn't agree with a front office decision.. I also remember a guy who though has never been linked to steroids, went off and hit 33 homers in one year after barely reaching 20 only once before in his career.I know there are a lot of Larkin supporters here, but I for one would much rather be waiting tomorrow for Dave Concepcion, a true hall of famer in my opinion to get the call. Ready, Aim, Fire.

OK so he missed a lot of time

you need 10 year to be voted on

He missed about 4 years over 19 years, YES that is a lot

But it also means he put those numbers up using only 15 years, 5 more than required. Those are HOF stats for 15 years or 19 years


And for someone who claims to be a fan since the seventies, why are you only concentration on the final years of Barry's career? Barry only played with Jr for 5 years. You seems to be forgetting the 14 years he played before Jr showed up

mikemo14
01-09-2012, 05:12 PM
I don't claim to be a Red's fan since the seventies, I have been a die hard Reds fan since hearing Marty Brennaman broadcast his first spring training game in'73. I simply believe that Barry Larkin in his last ten years of his career was a major reason why the Reds became what they did for several years, a team with a few selfish players that won very little of nothing. Obviously 86% of the voters saw it a lot different than I did.

justincredible
01-09-2012, 05:13 PM
Cool, one less fan making the trip to Cooperstown. That just means one more chair for the rest of us.

Captain13
01-09-2012, 05:39 PM
Mike, we are entiltled to our opinions. I will say that, while I don't agree with yours, it is well thought out and very well stated. Mostly I will say, congratulations for posting a dissenting opinion without trolling. It is refreshing to read a well constructed minority opinion. Keep writing on RZ.

jimbo
01-09-2012, 06:10 PM
Funny how some fans can call him selfish while his actual teammates say just the opposite. Lark was always willing to sacrifice himself by grounding to the right side and advancing the runner to second. Nothing "selfish" about that.

alett12
01-10-2012, 11:11 AM
Larkin was arguably the greatest shortstop of his era definately in the top ten of all time there is no way he shouldn't be in the hall. Davey should too just compare the stats to the wizard defensively very similar just less awards offensively he was better so why he isn't in I have no idea

HUHUH
01-10-2012, 07:44 PM
I agree with mikemo14 regarding Larkin's selfishness. Other examples include
1) He and Griffey leaving the dugout early during the last game of the season and effectively getting Jack McKeon fired (this was a particularly childish and revealing episode on Barry's part)
2) The squashed trade with the Mets and holding the Reds over the barrel for a multiyear, lavish contract at the end of his career.
I'm sure there are other examples. One just always got the sense that Barry's only priority was Barry.

But note that all of his transgressions occured "off the field". Yeah, he would volunteer to bat anywhere and give up himself by hitting behind runners. He was a consummate team baseball player and deserves to be in the Hall. Just didn't quite have the great character traits as is being portrayed in most of the media.

UC_Ken
01-10-2012, 07:56 PM
His career OPS is .150 points higher than Ozzie Smith, who was a first ballot HOF. Ozzie was a better fielder but not near enough to make up a .150 point difference. Barry even had a 4 WAR advantage despite playing 400 less games than Ozzie. Barry is a HOFer and should have been one on the first ballot.

5ToolPlaya
01-10-2012, 09:01 PM
mikemo14, are you really Kurt Stillwell? Just kiddin'.

HUHUH
01-10-2012, 10:55 PM
Another example I just discovered at mlb.com in an article by Marty Noble regarding a proposed move of Barry to shortstop. The quote is attributed to Larkin:

"I didn't want to do it, but I begrudgingly went over there and tried," Larkin said. "I think I had a ball go between my legs, and I wasn't real happy with it. And I remember Chief Bender, I had a conversation with him, and Chief told me that he thought the organization thought it was best if I played second base, because I would not be able to play shortstop because my ... the stuff that I did just wasn't shortstop quality or Major League quality.

"I remember that vividly. I remember my conversation with him. We were at the pool in Indianapolis at some hotel. He called me down, I thought I was getting called up to the big leagues. I was in Triple-A at the time. Tommie Reynolds was the manager. Chief said, 'You know, you need to move to second base.' I remember walking away thinking, 'Well, you guys just need to trade me because you told me ... the organization told me ... I would play shortstop. I'm going to play shortstop.' I didn't say that to him but that's what I felt, and that's what I believed.

"I do remember going out after that and playing second base and, you know, I dragged myself out there. I certainly didn't put all of everything into it, but I did play second base. I think it was a couple games in the Minor Leagues, and after that second ball went between my legs, I think that was the end of that experiment."

The last paragraph is indicative of Larkin's selfishness, in particular, in HIS OWN WORDS:

I certainly didn't put all of everything into it, but I did play second base.

Certainly? Wow. That is a shocker. So this is the great teammate and leader? Worthy of being a captain?

Ouch.

justincredible
01-11-2012, 12:27 AM
Two extra seats.

Larry Schuler
01-11-2012, 03:27 AM
Ya know, after reading the facts some people have just posted, you do have to think about it...IS Barry Larkin truly the most perfect and selfless human being of all time? It sure makes you reconsider.

alett12
01-11-2012, 12:26 PM
Ya know, after reading the facts some people have just posted, you do have to think about it...IS Barry Larkin truly the most perfect and selfless human being of all time? It sure makes you reconsider.

Who cares? Alot of H.O.Fers where complete A-holes. Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, I'm sure there are more but those are the ones who i can think of off the top of my head.

HUHUH
01-11-2012, 03:33 PM
More examples here:
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70384

DocRed
01-11-2012, 08:23 PM
Wow...me thinks you drank a double dose of hatorade today....either that or Larkin dumped your sister way back when.:lol:

big boy
01-11-2012, 09:25 PM
Larkin >>>Concepcion

Krawhitham
01-11-2012, 11:38 PM
I agree with mikemo14 regarding Larkin's selfishness. Other examples include
1) He and Griffey leaving the dugout early during the last game of the season and effectively getting Jack McKeon fired (this was a particularly childish and revealing episode on Barry's part)
2) The squashed trade with the Mets and holding the Reds over the barrel for a multiyear, lavish contract at the end of his career.
I'm sure there are other examples. One just always got the sense that Barry's only priority was Barry.

But note that all of his transgressions occured "off the field". Yeah, he would volunteer to bat anywhere and give up himself by hitting behind runners. He was a consummate team baseball player and deserves to be in the Hall. Just didn't quite have the great character traits as is being portrayed in most of the media.

1) McKeon was fired because the team finished 10 games out of 1st first place after picking up JR and Bichette. Plus he fell asleep in the dugout during a few games. To be fair to McKeon his wife was going to cancer treatments and he was burning the candle at both ends than season. Plus the Reds did not want to pay him his salary, they even low balled Oester before getting Boone to settle for chump change. Leatherpants guaranteed Linder a playoff team if they got Jr, after the team failed Leatherpants blamed Trader Jack and Linder started cutting corners everywhere he could including the manager's salary

McKeon selected Larking for the All-Star team in 2004 so be must not have blamed him for being fired

You also have to remember Jack was offered 500,000 in a take it or leave it offer after the 1999 season and openly complained to the press about the way he was being treated.


“I want what's fair,” Mr. McKeon said. “I've got more experience and wins than a lot of those guys.”

Money was not the only issue, though.

“When I started this, I said I wanted a two-year deal,” he said. “I guess they don't think I deserve it. We won 96 games this year.”

This really pissed off John Allen. The rumor at the time was he decided in 1999 that unless McKeon's team had a strong run in the playoffs he was going to be fired because he went to the press about his contract offer

2) You are holding it against Larkin because he did not want to be traded? Because he did not want to uproute his family? He had every right to veto the trade, he earned that right by being a 10-5 man. All the Reds had to do was NOT RESIGN him at season's end, which is exactly what leatherpants was going to do, until a certain member of the Big Red Machine told Linder their team went to pot after Perez was gone and the same thing would happen to the current team if they let Larkin go. Linder stepped in and signed Larkin against leatherpants wishes. The move basically killed team for 3 years because leatherpants still had the same budget but now had 9 million a season less to get players with

In my opinion Linder's move helped Larkin get into the HOF, he they had let him go he would have spent 5-6 seasons bouncing from team to team. The only reason Larkin retired in 2004 is because he knew he was on the back end of his career and did not want to put on a different team's uniform. He had offers and turned them down. But in 2000 he still thought he was in his prime and would have played for a different team just to try and prove the Reds wrong. Playing for just one team, your hometown team got him a lot of votes for the HOF

mlh1981
01-11-2012, 11:58 PM
People who are in a public spotlight like Larkin was for 18 years are bound to make some mistakes. We hold these athletes to a higher standards than we hold ourselves to, I feel. The good far outweighs any of the negatives.

alett12
01-13-2012, 03:29 PM
People who are in a public spotlight like Larkin was for 18 years are bound to make some mistakes. We hold these athletes to a higher standards than we hold ourselves to, I feel. The good far outweighs any of the negatives.

Heck people who are in the spot light for four years have the same trouble, look at the white house