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Who Dey Time
01-16-2012, 10:10 PM
Per Ken Rosenthal's twitter....no details available as of yet.


EDIT: One year deal with a mutual option for 2013.

Who Dey Time
01-16-2012, 10:28 PM
Deal worth 2.5 million with an opportunity, with incentives, for it to increase to 3 million.

dMaus14
01-16-2012, 10:30 PM
So that leaves what? $5-6M left to spend

bcmachine
01-17-2012, 01:02 AM
A good pick up, not unexpected... still think there might be one more move in store. It's a bit risky, but would still be interested in picking up Manny Ramirez for $1 mill or so, then we'd have quite a lineup.

texasdave
01-17-2012, 02:31 AM
Ludwick, who can play left and right field, gives the Reds some much-needed outfield depth. Like left fielder Chris Heisey, Ludwick is a right-handed hitter. However, Ludwick has hit right-handers (.804 OPS) better than left-handers (.751 OPS) in his nine-year career.Ludwick, 33, posted a .237/.310/.363 line with 13 homers for the Padres and Pirates in 2011. His batting average, on-base percentage and slugging percentage all dropped for the third consecutive season. However, UZR/150 suggests Ludwick has played average defense in the outfield corners in recent years.

Let's hope the GABP effect turns that around. That 2012 line is ugly. To be honest, I don't understand this signing at all. But I hope it works out.

bah1286
01-17-2012, 06:15 AM
Not a very exciting move. Looking at his decline over the pasr four yeaars is very concernig. I hope he is just looked at as a bench player andHeisey gets his shot to play everyday.

NCCardfan
01-17-2012, 07:36 AM
Luddy had that all-star season in 2008 and then started his decline. He went from STL (almost neutral, leans to pitching slightly) to SD (very pitcher friendly) to PIT (neutral with edge to hitter) and now gets to play at GABP. Hope that his decline stops for the Reds sake but only time will tell. Good luck with this one.

izzy's dad
01-17-2012, 09:30 AM
I think this is a solid signing, as long as Dusty doesn't run him out there every day. Dusty does like his veterans. If used correctly a Ludwick/Heisey platoon can be pretty productive. But that is a big if.

jmt5887
01-17-2012, 09:41 AM
This will put heisey in the role he's supposed to be in and is good at. Ph/outfield backup.

Old NDN
01-17-2012, 09:59 AM
This signing also means that Heisey could see a lot more time in CF, especially if Stubbs can't improve his contact skills. Of course, Heisey isn't much of an improvement in that area, either.

goreds2
01-17-2012, 12:02 PM
I got nothing but here are some comments around the web obtained from the Cincy Enquirer.

* Expect Ludwick to get the overwhelming majority of the playing time in left field ó at least out of the gate ó with Chris Heisey serving as the fourth outfielder and Drew Stubbs in center. - Matt Snyder, CBS Sports

* In addition to having a track record with Jocketty, Ludwick also has had a fan in recent years in manager Dusty Baker, who has made multiple positive comments, both publicly and privately. In 30 career games at Great American Ball Park. Ė Mark Sheldon, MLB.com

* I would not expect a miracle turn around as (Ludwick) still struggles to make contact (2011 was his worst in the past three seasons at 77.8%) Ö If nothing else, a move to the homer friendly Great American Ballpark might be enough as he still generates plenty of fly balls (47% in 2011) and suffered from the lowest home run per fly ball rate of his career (7.5%). - Jamie Lance, sports statistician


* Ludwick is good against lefties with a .751 career OPS (although thatís lower than his .804 mark against righties), and hitting lefties was one thing he did well in 2011: .264/.350/.413 isnít a bad line at all. For a max of $3 million, this isnít a bad bargain at all. Ludwick could easily provide a win of value if he stays healthy, and at the same time, you let Heisey mature a little bit and progress as a player. Seems solid enough to me. - Joe Lucia, The Outside Corner

The DARK
01-17-2012, 12:24 PM
That's a bit disappointing. He'd likely be a good platoon partner with Heisey, but I want better out of a regular starter in left field.

DocRed
01-17-2012, 12:39 PM
Not a big fan of Ludwick but at least he came cheap.

alett12
01-17-2012, 01:06 PM
I honestly think corey patterson would have been a better idea on a minor league deal. He has speed, can play defense, and play all 3 outfield spots plus he would have been much cheaper. It makes me sick knowing heisey wont get his chance to start because of dusty's love of veterans, strikeout kings, and guys who can't make contact. If he starts i see the reds not making it anywhere near .500 much less the playoffs.

RedsFan_26
01-17-2012, 01:22 PM
I honestly think corey patterson would have been a better idea on a minor league deal. He has speed, can play defense, and play all 3 outfield spots plus he would have been much cheaper. It makes me sick knowing heisey wont get his chance to start because of dusty's love of veterans, strikeout kings, and guys who can't make contact. If he starts i see the reds not making it anywhere near .500 much less the playoffs.

It would have to come free to try the Corey Patterson experiment again..

And who said Heisey is the king of contact? His strikeout rate is very close to Stubbs, IMO Ludwick in this ballpark will give him confidence, and i strongly think he will be able to put up a 254/309/487 line, which is what Heisey put up last year.

Dont see how Ludwick splitting playing time with Heisey will hurt this team.

All it will do is spark up complaining fans about his potential

[deleted]
01-17-2012, 01:23 PM
I honestly think corey patterson would have been a better idea on a minor league deal. He has speed, can play defense, and play all 3 outfield spots plus he would have been much cheaper. It makes me sick knowing heisey wont get his chance to start because of dusty's love of veterans, strikeout kings, and guys who can't make contact. If he starts i see the reds not making it anywhere near .500 much less the playoffs.

Heisey won't get to start... because Dusty loves guys who strikeout? D..do you even follow this team?

And while I agree Heisey should get his chance to be the everyday starter, do you honestly believe that if Ludwick gets the majority of the playing time, we'll go from playoff contenders to under .500?

I mean I know the guy's been trending down and we shouldn't expect much, but -10 wins would make me miss Taveras.

Miss. Taveras. That's how I know your post can't be true.

alett12
01-17-2012, 02:18 PM
;2525893']Heisey won't get to start... because Dusty loves guys who strikeout? D..do you even follow this team?

And while I agree Heisey should get his chance to be the everyday starter, do you honestly believe that if Ludwick gets the majority of the playing time, we'll go from playoff contenders to under .500?

I mean I know the guy's been trending down and we shouldn't expect much, but -10 wins would make me miss Taveras.

Miss. Taveras. That's how I know your post can't be true.

I said that dusty loves guys who strike out. Don't you even read the posts?

NorrisHopper30
01-17-2012, 02:26 PM
Why does everyone love Heisey?

redsfanmia
01-17-2012, 03:25 PM
I think this years team will set the major league strike out record and even though they made all these moves they still will not win a play off game.

Pete4prez
01-17-2012, 03:57 PM
Even with the Ludwick signing, I would still give Heisey 500 AB's.

LeDoux
01-17-2012, 04:01 PM
I think this is a solid signing, as long as Dusty doesn't run him out there every day. Dusty does like his veterans. If used correctly a Ludwick/Heisey platoon can be pretty productive. But that is a big if.

If things go bad at least we won't need to wait until bobblehead night for Walt to cut bait.

Rich
01-17-2012, 04:08 PM
Here's my take...

Big production with St. Louis (a contender)....sub-par production with SD and Pitt (non-contenders)..... If things follow course, he should have a nice production year with the contending Reds. Maybe this is just wishful thinking but some players just perform better when they have something to play for.

The DARK
01-17-2012, 05:54 PM
Why does everyone love Heisey?

Cheap, versatile, good defense, waiting in the wings for a long time, came up as a prospect after a great year, but never got a real chance to start.

More importantly, he was the option last season that wasn't Gomes or Lewis.

[deleted]
01-17-2012, 06:15 PM
I said that dusty loves guys who strike out. Don't you even read the posts?

Yes, I do. You said that Dusty loves guys who strike out. You also said that because of this, he won't start Heisey. Heisey strikes out at a very high rate.

Are we starting to see the gaps in this line of thinking yet

[deleted]
01-17-2012, 06:22 PM
Here's my take...

Big production with St. Louis (a contender)....sub-par production with SD and Pitt (non-contenders)..... If things follow course, he should have a nice production year with the contending Reds. Maybe this is just wishful thinking but some players just perform better when they have something to play for.

St. Louis = red uniforms!
SD and Pitt = non-red uniforms!

If things follow suit, we've got a sure-fire 30 HRs!

I just think everything about Ludwick is trending the wrong way. I don't even buy the Petco argument, really. Sure that would explain a bit of a tail off in power numbers, but the guy's on base abilities in general have nose-dived the last 4 years. He may hit a couple more homers here, but he's not a definite answer for LF.

malcontent
01-17-2012, 06:53 PM
Career 0.804 OPS against RHP (0.751 vs. LHP).

Reverse splits look good to me.

Still want to see another LH bat signed or traded for, though Theriot would be another nice acquisition.

BallPark Bob
01-17-2012, 08:47 PM
While I don't think Ludwick provides much of an upgrade the market for available outfielders thinned out as the Reds addressed other key needs. Hopefully his production doesn't continue on his three year trend and he can be a viable platoon with Heisey or play when Heisey gives Stubbs a day off in center.

10xWSChamps
01-18-2012, 01:14 AM
I think this is a decent signing for the Reds given the tiny contract.

Certainly his decline since 09 (08 really, but he got MVP votes that season so he over-performed) is concerning along with the fact that he'll be turning 34 in the middle of the season.

But with that said, there are some decent trends that make me think that he has a chance to turn things around to a small degree. His strikeout % hasn't gone up very much and he still seems to have a little bit of power, so I think there is a nice chance that he still has it in him to improve. In fact I would bet on him improving over last year, but how much is the question.

Obviously he won't be the player he was with my Cards but I do think he's better then he's been playing the past two years. He is a nice defender and was always a clutch player for us, often coming up with the big hit and clutch diving catch in the outfield. He should be a nice pinch hit option if nothing else and a good defensive replacement.

alett12
01-18-2012, 11:33 AM
Why does everyone love Heisey?

People love heisey because of the stats he's posted in the minors.
minor league career hitting line of BA .294 OBP .365 SLG .458 OPS .823
I wont look it up but i know for a fact that is better than stubbs or ludwick i'm not sure about bruce.

DGullett35
01-18-2012, 12:00 PM
Ludwick could have a better year than he's had recently just from playing most of his games in GABP. Hopefully it works out that way. I still think Heisey is the starter but I cant help but think that the lineup seems to look better with Ludwick hitting 4th when he plays rather than Rolen hitting 4th when Heisey plays.(at least thats how I think it will work out.)

With Heisey...
Phillips
Cozart
Votto
Rolen
Bruce
Heisey
Hanigan/Mes
Stubbs

With Ludwick...
Phillips
Cozart
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Rolen
Han/Mes
Stubbs

IMO this could happen. I like that 2nd lineup better. I dont kno tho thats why Im sitting on the computer right now and not anywhere close to the dugout.

NorrisHopper30
01-18-2012, 12:25 PM
People hate Stubbs for striking out, but Heisey does it at the same rate...plus a terrible OBP.

IamRV
01-18-2012, 05:00 PM
vs LHP
2B Phillips
CF Stubbs
1B Votto
LF Ludwick
3B Rolen
RF Bruce
C Mesoraco
2B Cozart
Pitcher

vs RHP
2B Phillips
CF Heisey
1B Votto
3B Francisco
LF Ludwick
RF Bruce
C Hanigan
2B Cozart
Pitcher

Both lineups should score 4.8+ runs per game on average.

alett12
01-19-2012, 11:28 AM
vs LHP
2B Phillips
CF Stubbs
1B Votto
LF Ludwick
3B Rolen
RF Bruce
C Mesoraco
2B Cozart
Pitcher

vs RHP
2B Phillips
CF Heisey
1B Votto
3B Francisco
LF Ludwick
RF Bruce
C Hanigan
2B Cozart
Pitcher

Both lineups should score 4.8+ runs per game on average.

I see 2 problems with you line up. 1 you can only have 2B. 2 everyone knows dusty will play stubbs in center everyday. I don't get the big deal with Hesiey's numbers against lefties really, he's had 61 at bats against them which is not enough to base what he would do in an entire season JUST LET HIM START is my opinion.

IamRV
01-19-2012, 01:47 PM
I see 2 problems with you line up. 1 you can only have 2B. 2 everyone knows dusty will play stubbs in center everyday. I don't get the big deal with Hesiey's numbers against lefties really, he's had 61 at bats against them which is not enough to base what he would do in an entire season JUST LET HIM START is my opinion.

Oh contrere mon frere. He's had 150 AB's vs leftys in the past three years and his numbers are pretty consistent.


Heisey
2009-2011 AB AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs. Left 150 .180 .248 .300 .548
vs. Right 330 .288 .346 .539 .885

alett12
01-20-2012, 08:18 AM
Oh contrere mon frere. He's had 150 AB's vs leftys in the past three years and his numbers are pretty consistent.


Heisey
2009-2011 AB AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs. Left 150 .180 .248 .300 .548
vs. Right 330 .288 .346 .539 .885

I still think you need to give him the same chance you gave bruce and Stubbs because they were " first round picks" even though heisey wasn't

DaytonFlyer
01-20-2012, 08:34 AM
Meet Ryan Ludwick.

The Fred Lewis/Willy Taveras/Corey Patterson of 2012.

dMaus14
01-20-2012, 11:27 AM
Meet Ryan Ludwick.

The Fred Lewis/Willy Taveras/Corey Patterson of 2012.

Ludwick became a speedy, light hitting African American OF this offseason? That's incredible! What doctor did he see?

DaytonFlyer
01-20-2012, 12:48 PM
Yes, that is exactly what I meant. :bash:

As in the veteran who doesn't deserve playing time getting way too much of it.

alett12
01-20-2012, 12:55 PM
I agree completely and that's what I'm worried about but you forgot Johnny gomes

smixsell
01-20-2012, 12:57 PM
Meet Ryan Ludwick.

The Fred Lewis/Willy Taveras/Corey Patterson of 2012.

Nope. I predict Ludwick will do very well for us.

UCBrownsfan
01-20-2012, 01:14 PM
Meet Ryan Ludwick.

The Fred Lewis/Willy Taveras/Corey Patterson of 2012.

Ludwick Career OPS - 787, career HR 117/2964 PA, career OPS+ 110, 2.6 K/BB
F Lewis Career OPS - 751, career HR 27/ 1738 PA, career OPS+ 98, 2.3 K/BB
W Taveras Car OPS - 647, car HR 8/ 2644 PA, car OPS+ 68, 2.9 K/BB
C Patterson Car OPS - 691, car HR 118/4495 PA, car OPS+ 79, 4.5 K/BB

Ludwick is much much better, hits with more power, and strike outs less. Even his bad last 2 years that included his SD time his OPS is .708, and OPS+ is 97

Reds fans are way down on the guy... if we would have gotten him 1 1/2 years ago, he'd be a top 3 hitter on our team.

texasdave
01-20-2012, 01:21 PM
Ludwick Career OPS - 787, career HR 117/2964 PA, career OPS+ 110, 2.6 K/BB
F Lewis Career OPS - 751, career HR 27/ 1738 PA, career OPS+ 98, 2.3 K/BB
W Taveras Car OPS - 647, car HR 8/ 2644 PA, car OPS+ 68, 2.9 K/BB
C Patterson Car OPS - 691, car HR 118/4495 PA, car OPS+ 79, 4.5 K/BB

Ludwick is much much better, hits with more power, and strike outs less. Even his bad last 2 years that included his SD time his OPS is .708, and OPS+ is 97

Reds fans are way down on the guy... if we would have gotten him 1 1/2 years ago, he'd be a top 3 hitter on our team.

Two quick questions. If this guy is all that and a bag of chips why did it take him so long to get signed and why did he only get 2.5 million with incentives that could push it up a little further? I think those are fair questions.

UCBrownsfan
01-20-2012, 01:48 PM
Two quick questions. If this guy is all that and a bag of chips why did it take him so long to get signed and why did he only get 2.5 million with incentives that could push it up a little further? I think those are fair questions.


What's all that and a bag of chips? He's just not in the Taveras, Patterson, Lewis class. He's a very good 4th outfielder that has very good starter POTENTIAL -as he's done it in the past... more than Heisey can say.

Ludwick career War with the bat 9.5, Patterson, Lewis, Taveras combined 10.2

As far as contracts - do any of the other guys have a major league contract right now? You never know... maybe he took less to come here, because he thought he could put numbers at GABP and get a big contract. He had offers earlier, just looked for a fit. I guess Fielder isn't any good either... he's still unsigned.

Ryan Ludwick has contract offers from at least four teams
D.J. Short
Jan 7, 2012, 10:01 AM EST

IamRV
01-20-2012, 02:11 PM
I still think you need to give him the same chance you gave bruce and Stubbs because they were " first round picks" even though heisey wasn't

I like Heisey. I'm all in favor of letting him start against every RHP we face - but I would sit Stubbs to let Heisey play since their splits are almost mirror opposites.

alett12
01-20-2012, 02:24 PM
I dont think Stubbs deserve to start honestly so think if you're going to start a guy who hit .250 then the guy hitting .267 needs a chance

IamRV
01-20-2012, 04:32 PM
I'll let you figure it out.


2011 Heisey AB AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs. Left 61 .197 .258 .295 .553
vs. Right 218 .271 .324 .541 .865


2011Stubbs AB AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs. Left 113 .319 .418 .478 .896
vs. Right 491 .226 .298 .338 .636

malcontent
01-21-2012, 02:28 PM
I'll let you figure it out.


2011 Heisey AB AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs. Left 61 .197 .258 .295 .553
vs. Right 218 .271 .324 .541 .865


2011Stubbs AB AVG OBP SLG OPS
vs. Left 113 .319 .418 .478 .896
vs. Right 491 .226 .298 .338 .636

Reds really need to start him against LHP, and otherwise use him as a defensive replacement and pinch-runner.

I just don't see any signs of improved pitch selection from him (against RHP). And he absolutely refuses to utilize the bunt in his offensive game.

Of course, all this is lost on Baker.

nux fan
01-21-2012, 03:02 PM
stubbs needs to be gone, he would be if he were not a first round pick,

alett12
01-23-2012, 11:29 AM
stubbs needs to be gone, he would be if he were not a first round pick,

Exacatly, and if Heisey were a first round guy then he would be getting the chance to start like stubbs is. If you look at the minor league numbers, Heisey's are actually much better than stubbs.

dMaus14
01-23-2012, 11:51 AM
If you get rid of Stubbs we are completely done stealing bases. Stubbs hit in the .250 range and still scored 90+ runs. If Heisey doesn't duplicate last year and we get rid of Stubbs then we are screwed but atleast we can count on 80 runs from Stubbs whether he hits .250 or .280.

alett12
01-23-2012, 02:13 PM
If you get rid of Stubbs we are completely done stealing bases. Stubbs hit in the .250 range and still scored 90+ runs. If Heisey doesn't duplicate last year and we get rid of Stubbs then we are screwed but atleast we can count on 80 runs from Stubbs whether he hits .250 or .280.

You obivously are oblivious to Brandon's ability to steal. Votto and Bruce have some ability to. I think Cozart and Heisey are as good as Phillip's on the bases. Don't say they won't be able to steal any.

dMaus14
01-23-2012, 03:23 PM
Obviously because he has averaged right around 18 SB for the past four years. Heisey's highest SB total in a season (including minors) is 27(A ball) and hasnt stolen more than 13 since 2008. In 4 ML seasons Jay Bruce has stolen 20 bases. Votto in the same span has stolen 36 total bases. In fact in the last two years, Votto+Bruce+Heisey+Phillips = 75 SB; Drew Stubbs = 70 SB.

alett12
01-24-2012, 11:29 AM
Obviously because he has averaged right around 18 SB for the past four years. Heisey's highest SB total in a season (including minors) is 27(A ball) and hasnt stolen more than 13 since 2008. In 4 ML seasons Jay Bruce has stolen 20 bases. Votto in the same span has stolen 36 total bases. In fact in the last two years, Votto+Bruce+Heisey+Phillips = 75 SB; Drew Stubbs = 70 SB.

True but if you look at how many chances they get to run compared to stubbs you thenumbers are drasticaly different. I'll be interested to see what billy hamilton does this season which might tell us more as to stubbs future with the reds.

Larkin88
01-24-2012, 11:40 AM
You obivously are oblivious to Brandon's ability to steal. Votto and Bruce have some ability to. I think Cozart and Heisey are as good as Phillip's on the bases. Don't say they won't be able to steal any.

Oblivious is a little harsh. Brandon has pretty emprically been just a little better than average on the bases. The break-even point for successful steal attempts is pretty conventionally 70%. Phillips is a career 72% base stealer, which is about average for someone with his tools. At 16-28, he was 57% in 2010 and 61% in 2011.

Stubbs was succesful 80% of the time last season and has been succesful 80% of the time in his career. It isn't just getting more oppotunities. In no world does Brandon Phillips = Drew Stubbs on the bases.

dMaus14
01-24-2012, 11:47 AM
True but if you look at how many chances they get to run compared to stubbs you thenumbers are drasticaly different. I'll be interested to see what billy hamilton does this season which might tell us more as to stubbs future with the reds.

That comment makes my point about keeping Stubbs even stronger. He doesn't get more chances to run but has 5 fewer SB by himself then all of them combined. Sorry I think you should keep him and he will actually be more effective in the 6-7 hole than in the leadoff role.

Larkin88
01-24-2012, 11:51 AM
I'll be interested to see what billy hamilton does this season which might tell us more as to stubbs future with the reds.

The Reds lack of any real full-time option in center behind Stubbs will probably have a lot more to say about Stubbs' future than an infielder in AA who just happens to be able to steal bases as well.

alett12
01-24-2012, 02:11 PM
The Reds lack of any real full-time option in center behind Stubbs will probably have a lot more to say about Stubbs' future than an infielder in AA who just happens to be able to steal bases as well.

Chris Heisey, Dennis Phipps, those names sound familar to you when it comes to playing center? Both are completely capable of it I see no problem with it if they are hitting better than stubbs.

BEETTLEBUG
01-24-2012, 06:35 PM
Does anyone know when Ludwick is to take his Physical?

dMaus14
01-24-2012, 07:23 PM
Chris Heisey, Dennis Phipps, those names sound familar to you when it comes to playing center? Both are completely capable of it I see no problem with it if they are hitting better than stubbs.

If Chris Heisey had atleast one year of production with 600 AB I'd have no problem in him getting the chance to be the everyday CF but he hasn't. So yea I'm cool with Stubbs playing CF and still having a 2.6 WAR while we go to the NLCS.

alett12
01-24-2012, 07:40 PM
If Chris Heisey had atleast one year of production with 600 AB I'd have no problem in him getting the chance to be the everyday CF but he hasn't. So yea I'm cool with Stubbs playing CF and still having a 2.6 WAR while we go to the NLCS.

Exactly, which is why i dont like the signing of a veteran guy who can play left. they need to give him a season to get 600 AB in before they make a move to screw themselves over.

dMaus14
01-24-2012, 08:02 PM
Exactly, which is why i dont like the signing of a veteran guy who can play left. they need to give him a season to get 600 AB in before they make a move to screw themselves over.

The point of signing a veteran guy is a safety blanket. Everyone complained about Renteria signing last offseason but Janish failed miserably. I personally believe Heisey will be given every chance to get his 600 AB but when you can't perform in 600 AB like you did with 300 AB a veteran back up is needed. If Heisey (or Stubbs) fails, who would play LF? Frazier who hasn't proven himself? Francisco who hasn't proven himself?

The reason Stubbs is still here is because he has 4 tools (power, speed, defense, arm). Heisey only has 3 (Defense, power, arm) with the possibility of a 4th (average). The only way I am trading Stubbs is if it returns a package including Jurrjens and Prado. Other than that not interested.

alett12
01-25-2012, 11:31 AM
The point of signing a veteran guy is a safety blanket. Everyone complained about Renteria signing last offseason but Janish failed miserably. I personally believe Heisey will be given every chance to get his 600 AB but when you can't perform in 600 AB like you did with 300 AB a veteran back up is needed. If Heisey (or Stubbs) fails, who would play LF? Frazier who hasn't proven himself? Francisco who hasn't proven himself?

The reason Stubbs is still here is because he has 4 tools (power, speed, defense, arm). Heisey only has 3 (Defense, power, arm) with the possibility of a 4th (average). The only way I am trading Stubbs is if it returns a package including Jurrjens and Prado. Other than that not interested.

Personaly, Stubbs hasn't proven himself to me yet. When you strike out that many times you aren't proven, escpeacily when you're a speed guy and not a power hitter like Dunn

dMaus14
01-25-2012, 03:30 PM
I agree Stubbs hasn't proven himself. I never said he has. All I said was that he has seen to be more valuable than Heiaey at this point. If Heisey duplicates his numbers I would be open to getting rid of Stubbs but as it stands now, Stubbs has more value to me than Heisey.

alett12
01-25-2012, 03:52 PM
I agree Stubbs hasn't proven himself. I never said he has. All I said was that he has seen to be more valuable than Heiaey at this point. If Heisey duplicates his numbers I would be open to getting rid of Stubbs but as it stands now, Stubbs has more value to me than Heisey.

I would honestly consider demoting Stubbs if he doesn't show any improvement in the 1st month of the season ecspeacily if phipps is doing well in louisville.

Larkin88
01-25-2012, 09:03 PM
I would honestly consider demoting Stubbs if he doesn't show any improvement in the 1st month of the season ecspeacily if phipps is doing well in louisville.

I don't disagree Stubbs is an enigma. The reality is, though, Stubbs still scored almost 100 runs last season and adds a dimension to the offense that just isn't there otherwise. It's beyond frustrating to see his slash line knowing his tools, but I personally am not quite ready to give up on him. And like it or not, I really just don't see another option in the system right now capable of filling in that production.

I want to see Heisey get more opportunity in center this year too, but even if you give him all the time and demote Stubbs, who would even be the backup if Heisey gets hurt? Phipps? The kid whose one good season in the minors came when he happened to have a .450 BABIP? I'm not ragging Phipps, but he needs some time to grow in the minors still.

This is why you need cheap veteran help that is ready to fill in with the flip of a switch, especially ones who can open up more flexibility between positions in the outfield. That is why guys like Ludwick and Valdez are valuable to have on your 25 and 40 man, while a guy like Stubbs continues to try and find his upside.

I guess we just disagree on the actual major league ready talent that existing in our outfield ranks prior to the Ludwick move. A minor league deal to Valdez was great for similar reasons.

dMaus14
01-25-2012, 09:45 PM
I would honestly consider demoting Stubbs if he doesn't show any improvement in the 1st month of the season ecspeacily if phipps is doing well in louisville.

Really? The main complaint about Stubbs is that he strikes out a lot, correct? Phipps struck out 124 times out of 122 games. Austin Jackson struck out 198 times last season for the Tigers and there and they figured out a way to get into the postseason with him starting everyday.

alett12
01-26-2012, 11:27 AM
Really? The main complaint about Stubbs is that he strikes out a lot, correct? Phipps struck out 124 times out of 122 games. Austin Jackson struck out 198 times last season for the Tigers and there and they figured out a way to get into the postseason with him starting everyday.

Phipps struck out 124 times in 122 games yes but stubbs struck out 205 times in 158 games, hitting .243 while phipps hit .346 across AA where he hit .328 and AAA where he hit .380 this season.