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mth123
01-21-2012, 08:50 AM
Looking at the Rosters around the major leagues, a lot of teams don't have anyone better than Paul Janish to back-up at SS. OTOH, most of those don't have a rookie penciled in as the starter, but it won't be as easy to upgrade as people think.

These are the guys who I wouldn't mind seeing the Reds acquire for MI depth providing the trade is right. Only listing the ones I think would be better than the FA candidates or maybe Janish (who, because of severe defensive questions among the FAs, is probably better than any of the FAs on the market).

Robert Andino BAL. - A pretty good defender at all three spots who isn't a world beater, but hits better than Janish. 2B is the concern of the O's with Hardy at SS and Roberts a question mark. They have a few younger 2B options nearly ready. The Reds would probably need to offer something like Masset and Janish or Ondrusek and Janish. The O's need OF help. Maybe they'd be interested in Phipps. I'd hope the O's could throw in something else if the Reds give up 2 guys. Its not really the best fit from a trade standpoint.

Marco Scutaro BOS - The Red Sox are looking to free some dollars from the luxury tax cap to allow them to go sign a starting pitcher without bumping the luxury tax to a higher percentage. Scutaro makes $6 Million, so the Reds can't afford him unless they get creative. The Red Sox dealing him from the roster gets him off the payroll and any money they send with him doesn't count against the Luxury Tax number. The Reds could deal say Ondrusek and Janish for Scutaro and $3 Million and the Sox would still clear over $5 Million from the luxury tax number. Of course, with the shortage of MI, the Sox may be able to get a decent prospect from somebody for Scutaro and cash.

Trevor Plouffe Min - The Twins are probably stuck with Tsuyoshi Nishioka, they have Alexi Casilla at 2B and just signed Jamey Carroll to play SS. They don't view Plouffe as their SS of the future, but he's possibly an upgrade for the Reds. They are thin on position players, especially OF. They actually don't have a reserve OF who looks like a realistic shot to make the team. Perhaps a Todd Frazier for Trevor Plouffe deal would provide both teams with a better fit. Its questionable that he's better than Janish, but he was a a slightly better hitter in the minors and is younger.

Maicer Izturis LAA - The Reds could probably afford Izturis at $3.8 Million and he's probably the best reserve IF in baseball. The Angels are looking to add to the bullpen so maybe a Masset for Izturis deal could work. I'd guess the Angels would aim higher or just sign a FA for the pen. Not sure why they would deal such a good bench guy for a middle reliever when so many are on the market for the taking unless they have Luxury Tax concerns as well. If so, they'd probably want a pretty decent prospect instead of a middle reliever.

John McDonald or Tommy Manzella AZ - If Stephen Drew looks fully ready in the spring, the D-Backs may look to move a MI. Drew and Aaron Hill are going to play every day. They have Willie Bloomquist on the bench already. Manzella basically is Paul Janish (but possibly with less defense) and McDonald has basically had the career that Janish should hope for. Not sure either is an upgrade, but one could probably be had. Not sure what the Reds would have to deal that would interest the D-Backs without it being a huge overpay. Perhaps a bigger deal would make sense. Gerrardo Parra would be a nice get for the Reds if they could find a match that would net him with one of the IF options. I don't see one though.

Chris Nelson Colo - Jonathon Herrera, Eric Young Jr and Chris Nelson are all fighting it out at 2B in Colo. I like Nelson the best in that group as far as potential goes, but most places that I've seen have Herrera penciled in. None would be a great defensive option at SS, but probably better than Theriot or Renteria. Not convinced I'd rather have either over Janish.

Ivan Dejesus Jr. - LA - He was a pretty good SS prospect before he was hurt. LA used him mostly at 2B last year, but that was probably more because of Dee Gordon than anything. Not sure if he still is an option at SS, but if he is, he'd be a good get. The Dodgers have Mark Ellis at 2B now with Gordon and still have Adam Kennedy and they signed Jery Hairston. Probably no room for Dejesus. He might be cheap to acquire.

Jason Bartlett or Everth Cabrera SD - The Pads want to dump Bartlett's $5.5 Million salary and $1.5 Million option buy-out. That probably is too rich for the Reds. He'd be a fine option if the Reds could swing it. Maybe moving Masset's money and the Pads eating a little could get it done. Cabrera is another Janish, but I'm guessing they'd rather keep him and dump Bartlett's cash.

That's it IMO. Others aren't available (Eduaro Nunez for example) or just not as good as what the Reds already have. I'd rank them:

1. Izturis
2. Bartlett
3. Scutaro
4. Dejesus
5. Andino
6. Plouffe
7. Nelson
8. McDonald
9. Cabrera
10. Manzella

The last five are really questionable as to whether they'd even be an upgrade to Janish IMO.

camisadelgolf
01-21-2012, 09:25 AM
Great job, mth123. I'm particularly interested in Scutaro and Izturis. I wonder what the Reds would need to give up to acquire them. With all the deferred salary Jocketty has been doing lately, I wouldn't imagine that either of them would be a problem in terms of affordability.

Mario-Rijo
01-21-2012, 09:27 AM
I think the Masset for Izturis deal is something both teams could work out and both teams could benefit from. Though not sure the Reds want to trade any of their major league ready pitching depth right now. I think the 2 realistic options are DeJesus & Nelson. I think either could be had for the right price and would provide solid depth. I know they want a veteran but I'm not sure there is one who fits quite right via trade.

Frazier for Nelson makes some sense if the team doesn't feel Todd can be a long term answer at 3rd. I still like to think he is the best option we have for the future but whatever I'm trying to win now. I'd probably shoot lower like Valaika for either of the 2.

chicoruiz
01-21-2012, 09:37 AM
DeJesus maybe. None of the other guys interest me unless we're assuming that Reds ownership is a bottomless pit of cash. Personally, if they have five million or so to spend, rather than using it on an upgrade to Janish I'd prefer they just stick it under their mattress and use it come trade deadline time.

RANDY IN INDY
01-21-2012, 09:38 AM
I'm starting to feel that way too, Chico.

dfs
01-21-2012, 09:47 AM
Personally, if they have five million or so to spend, rather than using it on an upgrade to Janish I'd prefer they just stick it under their mattress and use it come trade deadline time.

yes. That way they have the flexibility to make an upgrade where they need it. Instead of where they might need it.

mth123
01-21-2012, 09:48 AM
I think the Masset for Izturis deal is something both teams could work out and both teams could benefit from. Though not sure the Reds want to trade any of their major league ready pitching depth right now. I think the 2 realistic options are DeJesus & Nelson. I think either could be had for the right price and would provide solid depth. I know they want a veteran but I'm not sure there is one who fits quite right via trade.

Frazier for Nelson makes some sense if the team doesn't feel Todd can be a long term answer at 3rd. I still like to think he is the best option we have for the future but whatever I'm trying to win now. I'd probably shoot lower like Valaika for either of the 2.

If I were the Angels, and I'd just spent all this money on Pujols and Wilson to try to get back on top, I wouldn't trade my supersub and top insurance policy for Nick Masset. I'd just sign Cordero or Lidge, bring in 2 or 3 guys like Linebrink, Ayala, Coffey and Wheeler to compete or go after a starter who might make a nice mid career conversion candidate (Rich Harden??). Now, if the Reds were to put Marshall on the table, that might get their attention.

I'd think about Frazier for Nelson or Frazier for Dejesus but I wonder if either is much of a defensive upgrade from Todd at SS these days. If they are, go for it. I'd do Ondrusek for either.

Captain Hook
01-21-2012, 07:49 PM
If I were the Angels, and I'd just spent all this money on Pujols and Wilson to try to get back on top, I wouldn't trade my supersub and top insurance policy for Nick Masset. I'd just sign Cordero or Lidge, bring in 2 or 3 guys like Linebrink, Ayala, Coffey and Wheeler to compete or go after a starter who might make a nice mid career conversion candidate (Rich Harden??). Now, if the Reds were to put Marshall on the table, that might get their attention.

I'd think about Frazier for Nelson or Frazier for Dejesus but I wonder if either is much of a defensive upgrade from Todd at SS these days. If they are, go for it. I'd do Ondrusek for either.

It's easy to call him a supersub knowing his ability to play multiple IF positions and also when you look at his total ABs year by year.I actually think the Angels have intended for him to be a everyday player and probably be their everyday SS but injuries have keep that from happening.It's possible that they're ready to move on and are willing to do that for BP help.After all that's what the reports are.

Gallen5862
01-21-2012, 08:01 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Rockies Acquire Marco Scutaro
By Mike Axisa [January 21 at 5:09pm CST]
The Rockies have acquired Marco Scutaro from the Red Sox in exchange for Clayton Mortensen, the teams announced. Scutaro is the second shortstop the Sox have traded this winter, following the deal that sent Jed Lowrie and Kyle Weiland to the Astros for Mark Melancon.

mth123
01-21-2012, 08:09 PM
It's easy to call him a supersub knowing his ability to play multiple IF positions and also when you look at his total ABs year by year.I actually think the Angels have intended for him to be a everyday player and probably be their everyday SS but injuries have keep that from happening.It's possible that they're ready to move on and are willing to do that for BP help.After all that's what the reports are.

What report says they are looking to move Izturis? I've seen reports that they want bullpen help and I and others have speculated, but I haven't seen any reports that they ar eactually looking to move Izturis. I hope sso. He's a great fit for what the Reds are looking for.

As for the Angels intent, Erick Aybar was one of the top prospects in baseball and was tabbed for SS all along. Howie Kendrick was the same at 2B. Brandon Wood was the other guy who was destined for 3B and didn't work out so guys like Figgins and Izturis got more playing time, but those guys were always envisioned as role players.

Captain Hook
01-21-2012, 08:56 PM
What report says they are looking to move Izturis? I've seen reports that they want bullpen help and I and others have speculated, but I haven't seen any reports that they ar eactually looking to move Izturis. I hope sso. He's a great fit for what the Reds are looking for.

As for the Angels intent, Erick Aybar was one of the top prospects in baseball and was tabbed for SS all along. Howie Kendrick was the same at 2B. Brandon Wood was the other guy who was destined for 3B and didn't work out so guys like Figgins and Izturis got more playing time, but those guys were always envisioned as role players.

It's more of a assumption based on rumors indicating that there's been talks between the Angels and multiple teams that include Izturis.The Tigers, Rockies and Braves to name a few.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/angels-notes-maicer-izturis-jeff-mathis.html

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/tigers-interested-in-maicer-izturis.html

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/01/quick-hits-nakajima-.html

I don't follow teams from the AL that close so I could be wrong about the Angles intent.Despite Izturis putting up better number then the guys you've mentioned(Kendrick being the only exception)he has been behind those guys for playing time for some reason.I'm pretty sure that Izturis has had a difficult time staying healthy so that could very well be the reason.That was my main point as far as why the Halos might be willing to move on if they can get help in other areas.

mth123
01-21-2012, 10:55 PM
Thanks for the links.

corkedbat
01-21-2012, 11:55 PM
In addition to Scutaro, the Rox may also be interested in Justin Turner. They still have DJ LeMahieu, Chris Nelson and Jonathan Herrera. I know at one time, Herrera had been mentioned as a targtet of Walt's. Maybe there's a match for he or Nelson. Maybe for Ondrusek or Frazier. I'd do both if Colorado has a young (AA/A+) OFer to throw in that the Reds like.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/01/rockies-remain-strongly-interested-in-justin-turner.html

RedlegJake
01-22-2012, 04:09 PM
I'd just keep Valaika and Frazier and Janish as soon as Herrerra or Nelson. We're not talking major upgrade here if at all. Frazier will outhit either of them, Valaika likely would too. Even Janish might not be too far off their numbers. I hope Walt leaves the Rox spare parts alone and targets Izturis or someone else.

corkedbat
01-22-2012, 05:37 PM
I'd just keep Valaika and Frazier and Janish as soon as Herrerra or Nelson. We're not talking major upgrade here if at all. Frazier will outhit either of them, Valaika likely would too. Even Janish might not be too far off their numbers. I hope Walt leaves the Rox spare parts alone and targets Izturis or someone else.

I posted the link because Herrera has been named as a target o Jocketty's in the past, but I agree with you. With Scutaro gone, Izturis and possibly DeJesus are the only targets that hold any interest for me.

Of course though, there is another old Jocketty staple available:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/01/eckstein-not-officially-retiring.html

:D

mth123
01-22-2012, 07:04 PM
When I made this list, I showed Dejesus as a target.The Reds are looking for a vet and I doubt they view Dejesus as an option.

From the Reds standpoint, I'm guessing that Bartlett is high on the list, but they need to figure how to deal with the $7 Million commitment.

TRF
01-23-2012, 11:23 AM
Andino is a Latin version of Janish. very similar professional careers. Janish hit better than Andino in the minors.

Here is the thing about NOT having Janish. Almost no one mentioned is a better defender than he is, and NONE of them have a better arm. Cozart doesn't have a better arm than Janish. Neither does Rolen. Janish hit 95 as a pitcher, he's got a cannon. So, while Cozart may have more range, Janish can make the throws he can't. And a rested, sporadically playing Janish posted a .723 OPS in 2010 in 228 AB's. I'll take that from my defensive specialist.

Cozart is the guy. The next guy is either in the system or hasn't bee acquired yet. But I'm fine with the backups on hand, and I believe Jocketty and Baker are too. because Janish has been signed.

mth123
01-23-2012, 06:21 PM
Andino is a Latin version of Janish. very similar professional careers. Janish hit better than Andino in the minors.

Here is the thing about NOT having Janish. Almost no one mentioned is a better defender than he is, and NONE of them have a better arm. Cozart doesn't have a better arm than Janish. Neither does Rolen. Janish hit 95 as a pitcher, he's got a cannon. So, while Cozart may have more range, Janish can make the throws he can't. And a rested, sporadically playing Janish posted a .723 OPS in 2010 in 228 AB's. I'll take that from my defensive specialist.

Cozart is the guy. The next guy is either in the system or hasn't bee acquired yet. But I'm fine with the backups on hand, and I believe Jocketty and Baker are too. because Janish has been signed.

I don't really disagree. Everyone is calling for an upgrade from Janish as the back-up. That sounds good, but most team's don't have one. Izturis has been a starter at other positions and still may be the main guy at 3B in LA. Scutaro and Bartlett were starting SS's for other team's at the time who may be (or were) available for $ reasons. Dejesus is younger and with some upside, but its iffy whether he can actually play SS. Andino had a better year last year. The others probably aren't upgrades. The whole point is that while everyone is demanding an upgrade, there really isn't one unless we deal for some other team's pricey starter.

I get the hope for a vet with a Rookie starter, but I'm perfectly fine with a guy who makes all the plays batting 8th who might be a bit of an offensive liability. The problem is, most of the alternatives are offensive liabilities themselves and don't make all the plays. I thought Janish was better than Renteria last year, and he's better than Theriot or Keppinger. The real need is to find a starter if Cozart should falter or get hurt. If that's the case, I want no part of those guys messing up the defense every day. If the middle of the order produces, the Reds will score runs no matter how much the number 8 hitter hits. If offense is the concern, upgrading the back-up SS isn't the answer. If we're just looking for a bench bat and not an emergency starter, then just go with Frazier.

RedsManRick
01-24-2012, 01:47 AM
Very good point, mth. Of SS with 250 PA last year, only 17 or 45 had an OPS north of .700. The 31st best hitting S was our very own Edgar Renteria who hit .251/.306/.348 and played mediocre at best in the field.

Janish is, in my mind, easily one of the best 60 SS in baseball. We might want a better backup SS, but having a backup SS better than Janish is a real luxury.

RedlegJake
01-24-2012, 07:26 PM
Very good point, mth. Of SS with 250 PA last year, only 17 or 45 had an OPS north of .700. The 31st best hitting S was our very own Edgar Renteria who hit .251/.306/.348 and played mediocre at best in the field.

Janish is, in my mind, easily one of the best 60 SS in baseball. We might want a better backup SS, but having a backup SS better than Janish is a real luxury.

I believe in admitting when I'm wrong. When I went and checked into the numbers I was surprised to find Janish atop the defensive ratings for shortstops. Maybe I just saw a couple games when he made a rare error but evidently he was much better than my perception. After doing some homework I no longer have any objection to Janish backing up Cozart - in fact - I think Walt's going to have a hard time finding a better backup. A player with a near equivalent glove who is better with a bat is a starter under any definition.

Captain Hook
01-24-2012, 07:36 PM
Looks like Janish is the man!!!!

:laugh:

IslandRed
01-24-2012, 08:30 PM
It's possible they can't do better (or better enough to make it worth the trouble) than Janish as the "if Cozart goes down for a few months" shortstop replacement. I was hoping they could come up with someone who would be better suited for the everyday bench role, though. (Translated: Someone who doesn't cause us to avert our eyes when he comes up as a pinch-hitter. And he will. This is the National League, after all.) But if they can't, they can't.