Reds 2012 payroll according to John Fay

[Vottomatic]

Here’s the payroll:

Brandon Phillips $12 million
Joey Votto $9.5 million
Ryan Madson $8.5 million
Bronson Arroyo $7 million
Scott Rolen $6.5 million
Johnny Cueto $5.4 million
Jay Bruce $5 million
Sean Marshall $3.1 million
Nick Massett $2.9 million
Ryan Ludwick $2.5 million
Homer Bailey $2.45 million
Aroldis Chapman $2 million
Bill Bray $1.417 million
Ryan Hanigan $1.2 million
Miguel Cairo $1 million
Jose Arredendo $875,000
Paul Janish $850,000
Andrew Brackman $500,000
Total $72.69 million

The (8) "zero service time to three years service time guys" will make a total of about $4 million.

$76.7M payroll in 2012.

Not what I had figured.

[mdccclxix]

He is privy to the deferments. If you go off Cot's you only get the contract total for each player, not deferments.

With all of these deferments, sometimes I wonder if there isn't a tear down option in the plans after 2012, or 2013, or whenever.

Lot's of baseball yet to play so by no means is it early enough to fully know the financial status of the Reds, but there is some hefty money due. Not sure how that effects anything year to year.

[kbrake]

I thought Ryan Madson only gets 2mil during the season?

[camisadelgolf]

I thought Ryan Madson only gets 2mil during the season?
$2M during the season, $2M in November, $2M in November of 2013, and a $2.5M buyout.

[AmarilloRed]

Did Massett already win his arbitration case?-he'd only get 2.9 million if he won the case.

[Vottomatic]

He is privy to the deferments. If you go off Cot's you only get the contract total for each player, not deferments.

With all of these deferments, sometimes I wonder if there isn't a tear down option in the plans after 2012, or 2013, or whenever.

Lot's of baseball yet to play so by no means is it early enough to fully know the financial status of the Reds, but there is some hefty money due. Not sure how that effects anything year to year.

My guess is they're expecting the guys from Dayton and double AA to start arriving in 2014, and the major league club can cut some payroll, and catch up on these deferments.

Just my guess, as you intimated.

[mth123]

Here’s the payroll:

Brandon Phillips $12 million
Joey Votto $9.5 million
Ryan Madson $8.5 million
Bronson Arroyo $7 million
Scott Rolen $6.5 million
Johnny Cueto $5.4 million
Jay Bruce $5 million
Sean Marshall $3.1 million
Nick Massett $2.9 million
Ryan Ludwick $2.5 million
Homer Bailey $2.45 million
Aroldis Chapman $2 million
Bill Bray $1.417 million
Ryan Hanigan $1.2 million
Miguel Cairo $1 million
Jose Arredendo $875,000
Paul Janish $850,000
Andrew Brackman $500,000
Total $72.69 million

The (8) "zero service time to three years service time guys" will make a total of about $4 million.

$76.7M payroll in 2012.

Not what I had figured.

This list is not counting:

Deferred Signing Bonus to Votto Payable this year $1.5 Million
Deffered Signing Bonus to Rolen Payable this year $1.3 Million
Deferred Signing Bonus to Chapman Payable in November $1.25 Million
Option Buy-out to Cordero $1 Million

That's $5 Million more that will come from this season's budget.

Also guessing that an Annuity Funding for Arroyo - Not sure how much, but I'd guess around $3 Million.

Finally, the $4 Million may account for this, but I'd say Minor leaguers earning big league pay while the major leaguer is on the DL probably adds another Million or more.

That pretty much uses up the entire $85 Million.

[SirFelixCat]

What about the money due to Jr?

[mth123]

What about the money due to Jr?

Already funded and coming from an annuity.

[*BaseClogger*]

It really bothers me that they have to get so creative with all these deferments to simply have a payroll of $80... :/

[Vottomatic]

It really bothers me that they have to get so creative with all these deferments to simply have a payroll of $80... :/

Yeah, bothers me too.

1. Makes me think a Votto LTC is completely out of the question.
2. Has me scratching my head about 2013, 2014, and beyond, as some of these contracts increase, and other guys need signed.

Daggone. Frickin' raise ticket prices a little. I think they will see better attendance this year with all the moves they made. I only went to a few games last year. I bet I pay to go to 15 to 20 this year.

[Benihana]

My guess is they're expecting the guys from Dayton and double AA to start arriving in 2014, and the major league club can cut some payroll, and catch up on these deferments.

Just my guess, as you intimated.

I think this is correct. The offseason after the 2013 season is likely to be a purging.

I expect 2014 to be "The Great Rebuilding Year" Maybe 2015 as well.

Guys like Votto, Phillips, Stubbs, Arroyo and Bailey will likely be allowed to walk via FA.

Guys like Latos, Cueto, and Leake could all be considered for trades to restock the system with younger, cheaper talent.

I'm sure the Reds will hang onto a couple of "big names" like Bruce and Chapman for continuity and attendance purposes.

But hopefully prospects like Hamilton, Soto, Sulbaran and Corcino will continue to develop and the cavalry will arrive, soften the blow, and provide hope for the future.

The circle of life continues.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Didn't Navarro sign for $800K as well?

[mdccclxix]

I think if Latos performs like an ace in 2012 he becomes the centerpiece of the team and Votto is gone after 2013. I can see Latos and Phillips extensions after next year.

If you look at 2014, the Reds will still have Aroldis, Latos, Leake, Bailey, Cueto under control. Also, Bruce, Heisey, Stubbs, Mesoraco will be under control. It's not impossible to imagine that veteran team being a contender as well. 2015 holds a lot of promise as well, if players that are on the team now establish themselves as 1st or 2nd division players.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Adding Cordero's buyout ($1M) and Votto's 2012 bonus ($1.5M) and the lower end of the 2012 payroll (using the rest of Fay's numbers) would be $79.2M.

Adding Navarro (800K) and the deferments and the number could be as high as $88M.

So $79M on the low end and $88M on the high end.

[*BaseClogger*]

BuckeyeRedleg, I believe Navarro got a minor league contract worth $800K *if* he reaches the majors...

[Vottomatic]

I think this is correct. The offseason after the 2013 season is likely to be a purging.

I expect 2014 to be "The Great Rebuilding Year" Maybe 2015 as well.

Guys like Votto, Phillips, Stubbs, Arroyo and Bailey will likely be allowed to walk via FA.

Guys like Latos, Cueto, and Leake could all be considered for trades to restock the system with younger, cheaper talent.

I'm sure the Reds will hang onto a couple of "big names" like Bruce and Chapman for continuity and attendance purposes.

But hopefully prospects like Hamilton, Soto, Sulbaran and Corcino will continue to develop and the cavalry will arrive, soften the blow, and provide hope for the future.

The circle of life continues.

If this is the plan, the veteran guys should always be traded for opposing top pitching prospects where possible. The team's direction should center around quality pitching.

[reds44]

I think if Latos performs like an ace in 2012 he becomes the centerpiece of the team and Votto is gone after 2013. I can see Latos and Phillips extensions after next year.

I don't think there's anyway Phillips is a Red after this season. With Phillips, Rolen, and Arroyo all coming off the books before Votto hits free agency, I think you'll see them use that money to make a legit run at Votto.

[Brutus]

$2M during the season, $2M in November, $2M in November of 2013, and a $2.5M buyout.

For accounting purposes, that $2.5 mil buyout should not be included in this year's salary. It would count against next season's. Fay should not be adding that into this year's.

[WebScorpion]

I always thought the deferred payments were paid by putting money into an investment vehicle in the contract year that's calculated to yield those payments. I thought the only budget hit was that smaller contract year investment...isn't that the point? :confused:

[mdccclxix]

I always thought the deferred payments were paid by putting money into an investment vehicle in the contract year that's calculated to yield those payments. I thought the only budget hit was that smaller contract year investment...isn't that the point? :confused:

That would be an impressive way to run things. How can you guarantee that much return though? What if the market fails?

[mdccclxix]

I don't think there's anyway Phillips is a Red after this season. With Phillips, Rolen, and Arroyo all coming off the books before Votto hits free agency, I think you'll see them use that money to make a legit run at Votto.

It's possible, and likely. The resources they spent in acquiring Latos tells me they want to ensure their pitching is good enough. Conversely, they got rid of Alonso, so they will want to try to keep Votto. However, an 8+ year contract for Votto may not be the wisest move, even if it will help the Reds from a player marketing and attendance standpoint. A 4 year deal for Phillips is much safer than an 8 year deal for Votto for double the pay per year, IMO. The wild card in all this is Votto going to Chicago or St. Louis, which can't happen. The Reds may have to over pay just to avoid that, for cripes sake. Yeesh. 2012 just has to play itself out, there just isn't a clear way forward. The good news is that Votto and BP or not, there are still 5-6 awesome young players under control through 2014.

[traderumor]

I know folks are just trying to get inside management's head, but I have not seen baseball team's managed in a way where they have a strategic plan that says "2012 is..., 2013 we're going to..., then in 2014, we're rebuilding." This business is too volatile for a whole lot of long-term planning.

The accountants might have the spreadsheet at the ready for future budget obligations, but I'm not sure that at the level of Major League roster management, that there is a whole lot of talk about 2014. And I'm not sure that I ding them for not having a focus on that type of thinking in this industry.

[IslandRed]

I always thought the deferred payments were paid by putting money into an investment vehicle in the contract year that's calculated to yield those payments. I thought the only budget hit was that smaller contract year investment...isn't that the point? :confused:

Depends on what kind of deferment we're talking about. For a long-term payout like the Griffey or Arroyo deals, that makes sense, although the pay-in doesn't all have to be in one shot. But if it's just kicking a couple of million bucks a year or two down the road, the hassle of setting up an annuity or somesuch may be more trouble than it's worth.

[IslandRed]

I know folks are just trying to get inside management's head, but I have not seen baseball team's managed in a way where they have a strategic plan that says "2012 is..., 2013 we're going to..., then in 2014, we're rebuilding." This business is too volatile for a whole lot of long-term planning.

The accountants might have the spreadsheet at the ready for future budget obligations, but I'm not sure that at the level of Major League roster management, that there is a whole lot of talk about 2014. And I'm not sure that I ding them for not having a focus on that type of thinking in this industry.

Yep. Because there's another big variable in play that's difficult to predict at this point: what are the Reds' revenues going to be? They're hoping for "up" if the team does well in 2012 and 2013, but you never know.

[Vottomatic]

Depends on what kind of deferment we're talking about. For a long-term payout like the Griffey or Arroyo deals, that makes sense, although the pay-in doesn't all have to be in one shot. But if it's just kicking a couple of million bucks a year or two down the road, the hassle of setting up an annuity or somesuch may be more trouble than it's worth.

So the question will be with Votto..........do they pay him something like $18M annually, and defer $3 to $5M per season to the future?

Seems like an awful lot.

I love Joey and I wish he could be a lifetime Red. But this organization cannot afford to pay one guy $23 to $25M per season. And I would think Votto would know that if they do pay him that much, the supporting cast is going to take a hit, and he won't be seeing the postseason very often.

[Vottomatic]

Yep. Because there's another big variable in play that's difficult to predict at this point: what are the Reds' revenues going to be? They're hoping for "up" if the team does well in 2012 and 2013, but you never know.

Yeah, I think with the offseason moves, the fan/attendance response is going to be key in terms of future signings. If they don't get much of a bump and the team is doing well, I wouldn't look for them to push the payroll limit.

[Brutus]

I always thought the deferred payments were paid by putting money into an investment vehicle in the contract year that's calculated to yield those payments. I thought the only budget hit was that smaller contract year investment...isn't that the point? :confused:

Not all of deferred payments have to be invested immediately. You're absolutely right that most attributed, deferred payments are paid into an interest-bearing account designed to yield the amount of a future payment, but Major League Baseball actually allows teams a buffer zone to how much has to be invested. There is a certain threshold each year where teams do not have to apply any money toward future deferments, though I cannot remember the amount off the top of my head.

[mth123]

Not sure exactly, but when a bonus is deferred and to be paid over the life of the contract, as is the case with Votto and Rolen, I don't think pre-funding is required. When money is deferred beyond the end of the deal (like in Arroyo's deal), then an annuity is needed. Not sure how much of the annuity needs to be funded before the contract expires, but I think there is a required percentage.