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Spitball
01-25-2012, 11:32 PM
Reds, Francis Close To Deal

By Zach Links [January 25 at 9:26pm CST]

The Reds are close to signing free agent left-hander Jeff Francis to a minor league deal, a source tells Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (via Twitter).

cinreds21
01-25-2012, 11:36 PM
The Reds must seriously hate their minor league depth. The move is dumb on both sides. The Reds, as of now, have five, six counting Chapman, starters. No room for Francis and I highly doubt Francis would accept a Triple-A assignment. Just pointless to me.

reds44
01-25-2012, 11:41 PM
It is done.

https://twitter.com/#!/JonHeymanCBS/status/162378717291749376

Minor league deal, easy there 21.

Spitball
01-25-2012, 11:41 PM
No room for Francis and I highly doubt Francis would accept a Triple-A assignment. Just pointless to me.

It is a minor league signing. He apparently has lost velocity and has a long haul back to the show.

Gallen5862
01-25-2012, 11:43 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Reds, Francis Close To Deal
By Zach Links [January 25 at 9:26pm CST]
The Reds are close to signing free agent left-hander Jeff Francis to a minor league deal, a source tells Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (via Twitter).

Francis spent 2011 with the Royals, posting a 4.82 ERA with 4.5 K/9 and 1.9 BB/9 across 31 starts. His 183 innings of work last season was his highest total since 2007, the season prior to suffering a shoulder injury.

cinreds21
01-25-2012, 11:45 PM
I knew it was a minor league deal before I posted it. A lot of guys sign minor league deals with an opt-out clause, that's why I said he wouldn't accept a minor league assignment.

Gallen5862
01-25-2012, 11:47 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Reds, Francis Agree To Deal

By Zach Links [January 25 at 9:40pm CST]

The Reds have agreed to sign free agent left-hander Jeff Francis to a minor league deal, tweets Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com. The 31-year-old is represented by Frontline Sports Management.

Patrick Bateman
01-25-2012, 11:47 PM
Ya calling it dumb is probably dumb considering we dont even know the contract terms. Considering Jock pursued the deal, he must feel there is some chance Francis sticks around in AAA, which in that case is a great signing if the Reds are planning to contend. Sure beats the days of Shearn, Lehr, Michalek, etc.

cinreds21
01-25-2012, 11:48 PM
Well of course, I just don't see him sticking around.

Benihana
01-25-2012, 11:56 PM
Like it. The best offseason in years (decades?) continues.

camisadelgolf
01-26-2012, 12:04 AM
Even if he doesn't stick around, the veteran presence could come in handy.

PuffyPig
01-26-2012, 12:09 AM
Well of course, I just don't see him sticking around.

He'll opt out only if someone promises him a major league spot.

If no one does.....

Gallen5862
01-26-2012, 12:15 AM
Does Jeff Francis have any options left if he were to be put on the Reds 40 Man roster? It looked like he only was in the minors for 2 years.

camisadelgolf
01-26-2012, 12:29 AM
Does Jeff Francis have any options left if he were to be put on the Reds 40 Man roster? It looked like he only was in the minors for 2 years.
Yes, he has options, but because he has five years of Major League service, the Reds would need his consent in order to option.

Brutus
01-26-2012, 12:33 AM
Well of course, I just don't see him sticking around.

Considering you have no idea if it even contains such a clause, it's kind of pointless to call it stupid. For all we know, it's a straight minor league deal with no qualifiers.

Captain Hook
01-26-2012, 12:45 AM
I kind of wanted the Reds to resign Dontrelle but this is better.Despite the good offseason for Walt I was a little worried about the Reds OF and SP depth a week ago but not so much now.

cinreds21
01-26-2012, 12:50 AM
Damn everyone jumping one me at once for (for once) stating my opinion.

PuffyPig
01-26-2012, 12:56 AM
Francis is not a bad pitcher.

Last year he pitched 181 innings of 4.26 xFIP baseball, with a 2.6 WAR.

The K-rate is not there, but never really was.

He's a GB pitcher with great control. He'd likely make a great LOOGY. He walked 2 out of 180 LH batters he faced last year.

And yet some are complaining we signed him to a minor league deal?

Give your head a shake.

MartyFan
01-26-2012, 12:58 AM
Is Francis better than Horst? Seems like he simply replaces what the Reds traded away.

RED VAN HOT
01-26-2012, 01:05 AM
IIRC, the Reds began last season with two starters on the DL. They needed the depth right away. Also, Willis eventually accepted a minor league assignment under similar conditions as Francis and was needed before the season ended.

Wilson Valdez is in a similar position as a middle infielder. In 2010 the Reds traded for Aaron Miles before spring training only to release him when Cairo played better.

Neither the Francis nor Valdez signing is exciting. Still, it seems important to go to spring training with some depth. This is low cost insurance that one hopes will not be needed. There will be time to sort it all out at the end of March.

mth123
01-26-2012, 01:26 AM
Love this move. The Reds do have a logjam at AAA, but other than Chapman, and potentially Clayton Tanner down the road, they all are pretty much filler who I wouldn't want to see throwing a pitch in Cincy. If the Reds do "hate their minor league depth" they are pretty much right on. So do I.

I think that Francis could actually go north with the Reds. If it comes to him opting out, I'd demote Ondrusek to make room on the 25 man roster and bump some one from the 40 man with Francis filling the long relief role and Lecure moving in to a shorter role like the one envisoned for Ondrusek. Heck, even if Francis would be willing to bide his time in AAA, adding him to the 25 man in place of Ondrusek is probably a better move than having Ondrusek on the roster anyway.

I'm quite surprised Francis was available on a minor league deal. After Jackson and Oswalt, I though he was the best starter available.

Kc61
01-26-2012, 01:33 AM
Very good signing IMO. Francis has some attributes that might work well at Great American. Ground ball pitcher, few homers, few walks.

Not a high strikeout guy, gives up a lot of hits, but if he keeps the ball in the stadium he could succeed in Cincy.

Hard for me to believe the Reds bound themselves to keep Francis in the majors in any way. He is more likely to go the Dontrelle route and work things out in AAA before any move up. In any event, Reds had to add pitching depth for the rotation. Nice move.

I think the Reds will add an outfielder for AAA next. They need more outfield depth in case of injury.

Walt has really been active this off season. Team is shaping up nicely, although obviously no guarantees.

mth123
01-26-2012, 01:34 AM
IIRC, the Reds began last season with two starters on the DL. They needed the depth right away. Also, Willis eventually accepted a minor league assignment under similar conditions as Francis and was needed before the season ended.

Wilson Valdez is in a similar position as a middle infielder. In 2010 the Reds traded for Aaron Miles before spring training only to release him when Cairo played better.

Neither the Francis nor Valdez signing is exciting. Still, it seems important to go to spring training with some depth. This is low cost insurance that one hopes will not be needed. There will be time to sort it all out at the end of March.

Agreed. With these moves, this team is ready for Spring with sufficient depth. Time to get started iMO. First off-season that this team finished without work left undone in a long time.

mth123
01-26-2012, 01:41 AM
Is Francis better than Horst? Seems like he simply replaces what the Reds traded away.

Francis is about a zillion times better than Horst.

Patrick Bateman
01-26-2012, 02:09 AM
Damn everyone jumping one me at once for (for once) stating my opinion.

No offense, I enjoy your posts.... but there is a difference between saying that you don't think that Francis will ever wear a Reds uniform and saying that both parties are dumb for conducting the signing without even knowing the details. It comes off as arrogant and uniformed (JMO).

Considering there is no risk to this deal for the Reds, I hardly consider it "dumb". At worst he leaves after spring training. At best, he either makes the team due to injury or as a reliever, or he stays with the team as a minor leaguer and gives the Reds an extra layer of depth that they currently didn't have, or at least makes Joey Votto feel more "at home".

Also considering that Francis agreed to the deal, I'm assuming him and his agent have seen the Reds depth chart and discussed with Jocketty expecations about competing for a spot on the team, I think it's fair to assume that he may consider staying in the minor leagues in some event. Obviously no teams were knocking down the door for him considering that he clearly was not offered a major league contract and a guaranteed spot.

powersackers
01-26-2012, 02:32 AM
I was always a Francis fan. Too bad the shoulder injury has taken him from Top 10 Cy Young candidate to an afterthought. My guess is he and his agent just needed to get on with a team to showcase Jeff in Spring Training. If he does well in March and doesn't go north with us, he can likely walk to some team that doesn't have a clear winner in their 5th starter spot battle.

Tom Servo
01-26-2012, 03:07 AM
I liked Francis in Colorado even though he never quite put it all together, and I think if you were to hypothetically give him the same amount of innings as Willis got last year his starts would go better than D-Train's did.

OnBaseMachine
01-26-2012, 03:46 AM
This is an excellent depth signing, IMO. If one of the starters goes down with an injury, who do you want filling in, Jeff Francis - a guy who has had some decent seasons at the major league level, or someone like Tom Cochran/Brandon Hynick? Easy choice for me.

lollipopcurve
01-26-2012, 08:18 AM
Depth needed. Plus, Francis fits the 6'5" and above requirement.

_Sir_Charles_
01-26-2012, 08:39 AM
Is Francis better than Horst? Seems like he simply replaces what the Reds traded away.

Excellent point. Losing Horst was my biggest beef with the Valdez acquisition. This totally offsets that. :clap:

PuffyPig
01-26-2012, 09:19 AM
Is Francis better than Horst? Seems like he simply replaces what the Reds traded away.

Francis was a 2.6 WAR pitcher for the Royals last year. Horst may never see the major leagues in any meaningful way.

Blitz Dorsey
01-26-2012, 10:07 AM
I really like this. And I bet Francis would be willing to accept an assignment to Louisville if he feels he's the "sixth or seventh man" in the Reds' rotation and has a decent shot of getting called up when/if there are injuries to starting pitchers.

Building quality depth=Always good.

TRF
01-26-2012, 10:27 AM
I'm kinda with 21 on this. Seems like a move that doesn't make a ton of sense. If Francis pitches lights out in ST he still won't make the 25 man roster. He'll likely request his release. I doubt he throws a pitch for the Bats this year.

LegallyMinded
01-26-2012, 10:34 AM
Seems like a solid depth signing. The rotation may be full now, but last year, because of injuries and so on, the Reds used 10 different starting pitchers. That included Matt Maloney (9.16 ERA in 2 starts) and Dontrelle Willis (-.1 Baseball Reference WAR in 13 starts). If Francis can replace some of those injury-necessitated desperation starts with a few decent innings, he'll be well worth the investment.

IslandRed
01-26-2012, 10:50 AM
Francis is about a zillion times better than Horst.

And is a starter, not a reliever.

But I agree with some of the other posts in the thread -- I wouldn't be shocked to see him make the Reds as a long man in the bullpen, if the alternative is him jumping to another team. With the exception of LeCure (who has arguably earned a more steady role), everyone else in the pen is more of a 1-2 inning guy.

PuffyPig
01-26-2012, 10:59 AM
I'm kinda with 21 on this. Seems like a move that doesn't make a ton of sense. If Francis pitches lights out in ST he still won't make the 25 man roster. He'll likely request his release. I doubt he throws a pitch for the Bats this year.

Even if that occurs, it costs us nothing.

But if we have one injury in spring traing, it makes a ton of sense. Last year we started the season with 2 starters missing.

Even you admit that he only will "likely request his release". Which means he might not. Right now, it's clear no one will guarantee him a major league contract. He won't request his release lightly. Especially when there's a substantial chance one of our starters will come up lame somewhere along the line.

wally post
01-26-2012, 11:00 AM
cinreds21 - next time, be sure to have your legal department sign off on what you write. :D


Another good signing. Yes.

REDREAD
01-26-2012, 11:15 AM
Another great move by Walt. :)

I am really not worried about Francis requesting his release.
I am going to assume the sides talked and Francis is happy with his arrangement.
As someone else said, if the Reds are forced to add him to the 25 man roster at some point, there's room to do that.

bucksfan2
01-26-2012, 11:16 AM
There was a time not so many years ago that the Reds made signings like these and inserted said pitcher in the rotation. Josh Fogg comes to mind and that was only a few years ago.

Added depth is never a bad thing. Added depth for spring training is never a bad thing. Having back of the end starters who have had some success at the major league level in the system is never a bad thing. If Francis never throws a pitch for the Reds so be it. It is still a good move in my book.

RedLegsToday
01-26-2012, 11:17 AM
Depth needed. Plus, Francis fits the 6'5" and above requirement.

Can't wait for those early spring training photos of the pitching staff. If we didn't already know about him, we'd think Cueto was the batboy or some young kid getting to hang out with the adults. :-)

Sea Ray
01-26-2012, 11:23 AM
I'm kinda with 21 on this. Seems like a move that doesn't make a ton of sense. If Francis pitches lights out in ST he still won't make the 25 man roster. He'll likely request his release. I doubt he throws a pitch for the Bats this year.

You don't know that because you don't know that all our starters will be healthy. I could easily see him slipping into the Opening Day roster if he pitches well in ST and Homer Bailey's shoulder barks and needs more time to strengthen it or whatever. It could be something as simple as that.

Personally I'm not comfortable with a rotation of all right handers so I'm glad Walt's looking at other options, albeit remote

Kc61
01-26-2012, 11:29 AM
Maybe I missed something here.

Have the Reds agreed that Francis can demand a release if he doesn't make the club out of spring training?

That would be quite an unusual provision.

My understanding is that sometimes players have clauses giving them the right to demand a release if they aren't called up by June 1 or July 1 or some similar date.

But usually when a guy signs a minor league contract, he goes to AAA if he doesn't make the club out of spring training.

In any event, I don't see a huge risk. Worst situation is that Francis doesn't make the Reds and goes elsewhere. So what?

NJReds
01-26-2012, 11:34 AM
Good signing. Pitching depth is a good thing. If one of the starters goes on the DL, I'd wouldn't worry slotting Francis into the rotation to fill in. Ten years ago he would have been the opening day starter. :p

Blitz Dorsey
01-26-2012, 11:35 AM
There was a time not so many years ago that the Reds made signings like these and inserted said pitcher in the rotation. Josh Fogg comes to mind and that was only a few years ago.

Added depth is never a bad thing. Added depth for spring training is never a bad thing. Having back of the end starters who have had some success at the major league level in the system is never a bad thing. If Francis never throws a pitch for the Reds so be it. It is still a good move in my book.

That's a great point. In the span a few short years, we've gone from having a guy like Francis as a near-lock to make the rotation, to having him be "insurance" at best. I love it.

mace
01-26-2012, 11:47 AM
My only question about this is whether Francis can adapt to shooting guard and maybe challenge Arroyo at that spot. I mean, the frontcourt is already set with Brackman, Ondrusek and Marshall, with Madson and Latos coming off the bench. The key, though, is keeping Leake and Cueto healthy at the point.

lollipopcurve
01-26-2012, 11:51 AM
The key, though, is keeping Leake and Cueto healthy at the point.

I got Phillips at point and Leake coming off the bench behind him.

mace
01-26-2012, 12:21 PM
I got Phillips at point and Leake coming off the bench behind him.

Well, yeah, if you're gonna stray beyond the pitching staff. But if you do that, you've got to fast-track Juan Duran. Not sure he's ready.

And then there's Billy Hamilton . . .

klw
01-26-2012, 12:45 PM
My only question about this is whether Francis can adapt to shooting guard and maybe challenge Arroyo at that spot. I mean, the frontcourt is already set with Brackman, Ondrusek and Marshall, with Madson and Latos coming off the bench. The key, though, is keeping Leake and Cueto healthy at the point.

Don't forget Lucas O'Rear and Amir Garrett from down on the farm.


On topic: I am in the happy column for this signing.

crazybob60
01-26-2012, 02:45 PM
Added depth is never a bad thing. Added depth for spring training is never a bad thing. Having back of the end starters who have had some success at the major league level in the system is never a bad thing. If Francis never throws a pitch for the Reds so be it. It is still a good move in my book.

I will second wholeheartedly....

RedLegsToday
01-26-2012, 03:48 PM
I will second wholeheartedly....

Thirded. It was less than a decade ago that someone like Jeff Francis would be signed and be touted as the Reds 'ace'. Now he's 'insurance'. I'll take that anyday.

Brutus
01-26-2012, 03:49 PM
Maybe I missed something here.

Have the Reds agreed that Francis can demand a release if he doesn't make the club out of spring training?

That would be quite an unusual provision.

My understanding is that sometimes players have clauses giving them the right to demand a release if they aren't called up by June 1 or July 1 or some similar date.

But usually when a guy signs a minor league contract, he goes to AAA if he doesn't make the club out of spring training.

In any event, I don't see a huge risk. Worst situation is that Francis doesn't make the Reds and goes elsewhere. So what?

It's not totally uncommon, but to answer your question, there has been absolutely no indication that is the case. Only an assumption by a few people.

CarolinaRedleg
01-26-2012, 03:59 PM
Far cry from a few years ago when the 2012-model Jeff Francis would have likely been penciled in as our No. 3 starter.

I like this situation better.

TRF
01-26-2012, 04:03 PM
Actually that's a common provision.

PuffyPig
01-26-2012, 04:06 PM
Actually that's a common provision.


I think it's fairly common that he has to be on the active major league roster by May 1 or June 1. I think it's rare that he has to make the team out of spring training.

RedsManRick
01-26-2012, 05:58 PM
I'm not a huge Francis fan, but if Homer comes up with a sore shoulder in March, I'll sure be glad that we don't have to hope Chapman can do it or run the likes of Scott Carroll or Matt Klinker out there. I guess LeCure could be stretched back out too.

But at some point, you have to actually have the replacement level guys around or your'e forced to use guys who are even worse.

crazybob60
01-26-2012, 06:02 PM
I just went back and looked at some of Francis' stats. Didn't remember that he was a 17 game winner in Colorado of all places. Sure he has struggled since then and has had injuries...but who knows....

elfmanvt07
01-26-2012, 08:18 PM
I just went back and looked at some of Francis' stats. Didn't remember that he was a 17 game winner in Colorado of all places. Sure he has struggled since then and has had injuries...but who knows....

With a .319 BABIP in that park. Pretty legit. At least there's SOMETHING there.

Blitz Dorsey
01-26-2012, 08:24 PM
Couple other notes about Francis:

* He's Canadian (someone for Votto to go ice fishing with, or watch the movie Strange Brew with).

* He was a first-round pick (9th overall) in the 2002 draft. Votto was taken in the second round of the same draft. That's Joseph Votto, a catcher, as he was known as then.

dougdirt
01-26-2012, 08:30 PM
Francis can opt out on March 28th if he chooses.

https://twitter.com/#!/jcrasnick/status/162693089243316225

PuffyPig
01-26-2012, 08:37 PM
Couple other notes about Francis:

* He's Canadian (someone for Votto to go ice fishing with, or watch the movie Strange Brew with).



Francis is from North Delta, British Columbia. They get as much snow as Cincinnati, and certainly no ice fishing.

Gallen5862
01-26-2012, 08:40 PM
Yes, he has options, but because he has five years of Major League service, the Reds would need his consent in order to option.

Thanks for the info camisadelgolf. That would possibly give both sides options.

Mario-Rijo
01-26-2012, 09:27 PM
I like it but I can see 21's point to an extent. The likelihood of keeping Francis in AAA is a longshot, but I'd rather sign a longshot than a no shot at all.

757690
01-27-2012, 07:39 AM
According to Jerry Crasnick twitter


Jeff Francis' contract with #Reds: Minor league deal. He can earn a base salary of $1.5M if he makes the big league club. Francis' deal can increase to $3.25M total with incentives based on starts. He can also opt out on March 28. #Reds

Sea Ray
01-27-2012, 11:00 AM
According to Jerry Crasnick twitter

That's very helpful. Thank you for contributing that...

Kc61
01-27-2012, 12:56 PM
If Francis has an opt out right on March 28, the Reds might want to sign another, cheaper depth starter for AAA. Without an opt out right.

BuckeyeRedleg
01-27-2012, 12:59 PM
Great pick-up for the Reds. No risk and a possible nice reward.

Better than D. Willis and will perform the same function if the same situation arises again.

TRF
01-27-2012, 01:17 PM
If he pitches well in ST, he might stick for a month, but unless there is an injury, he won't supplant anyone in the rotation. You can bet his agent will be scouring every roster's injury reports.

Blitz Dorsey
01-27-2012, 05:44 PM
Francis is from North Delta, British Columbia. They get as much snow as Cincinnati, and certainly no ice fishing.

Thank you for pointing that out. Because, I was obviously being completely serious about Votto and Francis going ice fishing together. What, nothing about how Francis doesn't like bad movies from the 80's, either?

Edd Roush
01-27-2012, 07:51 PM
If Francis has an opt out right on March 28, the Reds might want to sign another, cheaper depth starter for AAA. Without an opt out right.

I agree. I was one who wanted Francis and with the opt-out clause, I think we need to find a similar pitcher who is willing to sign a minor league deal with an invite to spring training but no opt-out clause. This may be more difficult now because this pitcher would know he is likely 7th or 8th (behind Chapman as well possibly?) on the starting pitching depth chart, but I think we need additional depth. If Francis opts out on March 28, the Reds still could be without proven depth if there is an injury in April or May. Too bad the Astros signed Zach Duke and the Rockies signed Jamie Moyer. I want something of the similar ilk to pitch for the Reds if Francis opts out and a starter goes down.

Brutus
01-27-2012, 10:50 PM
Thank you for pointing that out. Because, I was obviously being completely serious about Votto and Francis going ice fishing together. What, nothing about how Francis doesn't like bad movies from the 80's, either?

Next, the Reds need to stage a Simple Plan postgame concern. Then the Canadians will feel right at home.

dougdirt
01-27-2012, 10:54 PM
Next, the Reds need to stage a Simple Plan postgame concern. Then the Canadians will feel right at home.

If we are going with Canadian bands, you need to do better than Simple Plan.

Brutus
01-28-2012, 01:02 AM
If we are going with Canadian bands, you need to do better than Simple Plan.

Trust me, we could do a lot better. For some strange reason, people in Canada actually like Simple Plan lol

Patrick Bateman
01-28-2012, 01:55 AM
Trust me, we could do a lot better. For some strange reason, people in Canada actually like Simple Plan lol

I can honestly say I don't know anyone here who listens to them.

Jay Bruce
01-28-2012, 04:33 AM
I can honestly say I don't know anyone here who listens to them.

How about our 16 year old sister??? Other than that though, no self respecting Canadian listens to simple plan. That's like saying all Americans love LMFAO.

mth123
01-28-2012, 05:15 AM
The simple answer to Francis opt out is to put him on the major league roster as the swingman. Send Lecure to his career path destiny as an effective multi-inning capable middle reliever and option Ondrusek. Francis probably won't opt out if he has a major league job. I think there is a very high probability that the Reds will need him to start for an extended period before the season is 2 months old. If some other team wants him for their rotation, then the Reds have a trade chip.

corkedbat
01-28-2012, 05:32 AM
If we are going with Canadian bands, you need to do better than Simple Plan.

Rush! Alex Lifeson, Geddy Lee, Neil Peart! Woohoo! :rockband:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Rush-in-concert.jpg

Best American Band = Allman Brothers; Best British Band = Pink Floyd; Best Canadian Band = Rush

757690
01-28-2012, 06:51 AM
If he pitches well in ST, he might stick for a month, but unless there is an injury, he won't supplant anyone in the rotation. You can bet his agent will be scouring every roster's injury reports.

When was the last time that didn't occur in Spring Training? How often does it happen that the projected starting five goes north with the team? If Francis pitches to be the sixth guy, odds are very good he makes the team out of spring training.

Blitz Dorsey
01-28-2012, 12:30 PM
Good 'ol Rush! Did anyone else think the lead singer was a girl when they first heard the band years ago?

No? That's just me? Alright then.

One thing I'll say about Rush: That's one hell of a unique sound.

Edd Roush
01-28-2012, 01:28 PM
The simple answer to Francis opt out is to put him on the major league roster as the swingman. Send Lecure to his career path destiny as an effective multi-inning capable middle reliever and option Ondrusek. Francis probably won't opt out if he has a major league job. I think there is a very high probability that the Reds will need him to start for an extended period before the season is 2 months old. If some other team wants him for their rotation, then the Reds have a trade chip.

I like everything about this idea, mth, except I question that if he is the long man, will he be able to stretch himself out sufficiently if a guy goes down with an injury? He won't be used to pitching 6+ innings a game if he is in the major league bullpen. I just don't know how effective he will be going from long man to spot starter. I feel like he would be more effective in his spot start if he was down in AAA working on his craft, pitching every fifth day, rather than pitching in the big league bullpen.

I still want more depth, BTW. I have a feeling that there is still a solid chance he could opt out and we still may run into a situation where we have two of the projected starters out at one point in time.

I also still like the idea of adding a corner outfield bat for AAA. My idea that I have brought up numerous times still remains Manny. Can he play in AAA during his suspension? Either way, he can still take BP and his suspension will be over when we need a DH for interleague play. He is a good insurance plan if Ludwick or Bruce go down.

mth123
01-28-2012, 02:08 PM
I like everything about this idea, mth, except I question that if he is the long man, will he be able to stretch himself out sufficiently if a guy goes down with an injury? He won't be used to pitching 6+ innings a game if he is in the major league bullpen. I just don't know how effective he will be going from long man to spot starter. I feel like he would be more effective in his spot start if he was down in AAA working on his craft, pitching every fifth day, rather than pitching in the big league bullpen.

I still want more depth, BTW. I have a feeling that there is still a solid chance he could opt out and we still may run into a situation where we have two of the projected starters out at one point in time.

I also still like the idea of adding a corner outfield bat for AAA. My idea that I have brought up numerous times still remains Manny. Can he play in AAA during his suspension? Either way, he can still take BP and his suspension will be over when we need a DH for interleague play. He is a good insurance plan if Ludwick or Bruce go down.

If its only one start, then any warm body will do. If its for an extended period, then he may only go 3 or 4 the first time, next maybe 5, then he should be up to the role. I'd rather deal with the transition than lose him and be forced to turn to Matt Klinker.

Not interested in Manny. I doubt he'd take a minor league deal. I doubt anyone still left would.

marcshoe
01-28-2012, 02:12 PM
If we are going with Canadian bands, you need to do better than Simple Plan.

What's Anne Murray doing these days? ;)

Edd Roush
01-28-2012, 04:13 PM
If its only one start, then any warm body will do. If its for an extended period, then he may only go 3 or 4 the first time, next maybe 5, then he should be up to the role. I'd rather deal with the transition than lose him and be forced to turn to Matt Klinker.

Not interested in Manny. I doubt he'd take a minor league deal. I doubt anyone still left would.

I think if all starters were healthy come March 27, I would talk to Francis about what he would prefer, to be the ace in Louisville or the long man in Cincy. I would give him his choice. If someone is hurt, I obviously bring him to Cincy as our #5. I think we agree on this.

Why wouldn't Manny agree to a minor league deal? It's not like a lot of teams are bidding for his services. If he wants a major league deal, why not give him what it takes? It would be pro-rated to 2/3 of the season and he would be a big bat. Why wouldn't you want that? You don't seem to be like the kind of guy who puts too much credence in team chemistry. Do you think he won't hit? I'm certain he will.

corkedbat
01-28-2012, 04:15 PM
What's Anne Murray doing these days? ;)

Starting an All-Canadian Indie Girl Band with Celine Dion, Alanis Morissette, Avril Lavigne and Sarah McLaughlin. :D

Kc61
01-28-2012, 04:18 PM
I like everything about this idea, mth, except I question that if he is the long man, will he be able to stretch himself out sufficiently if a guy goes down with an injury? He won't be used to pitching 6+ innings a game if he is in the major league bullpen. I just don't know how effective he will be going from long man to spot starter. I feel like he would be more effective in his spot start if he was down in AAA working on his craft, pitching every fifth day, rather than pitching in the big league bullpen.

I still want more depth, BTW. I have a feeling that there is still a solid chance he could opt out and we still may run into a situation where we have two of the projected starters out at one point in time.

I also still like the idea of adding a corner outfield bat for AAA. My idea that I have brought up numerous times still remains Manny. Can he play in AAA during his suspension? Either way, he can still take BP and his suspension will be over when we need a DH for interleague play. He is a good insurance plan if Ludwick or Bruce go down.

The Jeff Francis problem will take care of itself. There probably will be an injury and he will fill the spot, starting or relief. Or the Reds will send him down with an understanding that he will be back after a few starts, when the first slot opens up.

The Reds are not going to dump any of the pitchers on the staff, including Ondrusek who was excellent for the first half last year. Unless, of course, some pitcher on the team proves to be hurt or "not right" during the spring. And it's likely one such pitcher will appear.

I could possibly see Lecure being stored at AAA for awhile, but even that is doubtful. He pitched well enough to stay with the big club.

Chapman is also an issue. Looks like he is more likely than ever to start at AAA. Francis is likely ahead of him as rotation depth. I wouldn't dismiss the idea that Aroldis pitches longer relief in the majors as he stretches out. If healthy. And if a spot is available.

As for AAA, the Reds should add more outfield depth, especially left hand hitters.

The Reds still only have three lefty hitting position players on the ballclub. Votto, Bruce, and Francisco. Willie Harris would be a fourth. They no longer have Alonso. They need to have a few veteran lefty bats stored at AAA.

Edd Roush
01-28-2012, 04:21 PM
As for AAA, the Reds should add more outfield depth, especially left hand hitters.

What do you think about Manny as OF depth?

Kc61
01-28-2012, 04:34 PM
What do you think about Manny as OF depth?

I don't think the Reds are going there, or they would have saved a major league roster spot for him. Not sure Reds would have signed Ludwick if they were focused on Ramirez.

But I would never dismiss the idea of a Manny Ramirez for a year or two.

If he's in decent shape and wants to play, I could see Manny filling the Kevin Mitchell/Ron Gant/Greg Vaughn/Dave Parker role of a player on the down side giving the Reds a year or two as the cleanup hitter.

Manny is such a great hitter. Imagine Votto and Ramirez back to back.

Hard for me to see Manny at AAA.

Interesting idea, but doesn't seem like a Reds type move.

Brutus
01-28-2012, 05:19 PM
I can honestly say I don't know anyone here who listens to them.

Perhaps it's an Eastern Canada thing. They're from Quebec, after all lol

mth123
01-28-2012, 06:16 PM
I think if all starters were healthy come March 27, I would talk to Francis about what he would prefer, to be the ace in Louisville or the long man in Cincy. I would give him his choice. If someone is hurt, I obviously bring him to Cincy as our #5. I think we agree on this.

Why wouldn't Manny agree to a minor league deal? It's not like a lot of teams are bidding for his services. If he wants a major league deal, why not give him what it takes? It would be pro-rated to 2/3 of the season and he would be a big bat. Why wouldn't you want that? You don't seem to be like the kind of guy who puts too much credence in team chemistry. Do you think he won't hit? I'm certain he will.

Manny has been big time for too long. I just don't see him playing in AAA for anyone. Same goes for Damon, Vlad, etc.

RedlegJake
01-29-2012, 01:35 AM
I could definitely see Manny taking a minor league deal with an understanding that after a certain period he's guaranteed to come up. In other words, after his suspension, he plays rehab at AAA for say 30 days and then comes up - or gets a buy out. I think he accepts a deal structured like that. He knows he needs some time to get ready, if the Reds decide he doesn't fit or isn't capable they buy him out and released he can still offer his services immediately to anyone. Your only risk basically is do you believe he can still hit? If you do then its an easy gamble.

_Sir_Charles_
01-29-2012, 10:01 AM
I could definitely see Manny taking a minor league deal with an understanding that after a certain period he's guaranteed to come up. In other words, after his suspension, he plays rehab at AAA for say 30 days and then comes up - or gets a buy out. I think he accepts a deal structured like that. He knows he needs some time to get ready, if the Reds decide he doesn't fit or isn't capable they buy him out and released he can still offer his services immediately to anyone. Your only risk basically is do you believe he can still hit? If you do then its an easy gamble.

Can he do that? I thought the suspension kept him from playing pro ball at all. Minors OR Majors.

Edd Roush
01-29-2012, 10:19 AM
Can he do that? I thought the suspension kept him from playing pro ball at all. Minors OR Majors.

The way I read RedLegJake's post made me think that he was saying that Manny would train on his own for the first 50 games and then he would start his minor league re-hab. The Reds would only have one road interleague series left (June 18-20) when his suspension is up. I think Manny would be good to be back that series even if Bruce and Ludwick are healthy and if one of them goes down, Manny would likely replace their offensive production. I think Manny is a great insurance policy and he makes for a great bat off the bench even if Bruce and Ludwick are both healthy.

_Sir_Charles_
01-29-2012, 12:29 PM
Ah, sorry. I misinterpreted that.

RedlegJake
01-29-2012, 04:19 PM
Edd Roush is my favorite old time player and he also got the interpretation of my post correct! Yes I meant that Manny would train on his own and then play in the minors for short rehab AFTER his suspension to get back in hitting form and timing down etc, then the Reds could decide to bring him up or buy out his contract by a specified date.

The Reds gamble would be whether or not they believe he can still hit. If they do then its really not much of a gamble - and he'd likely be a bargain for this one summer.

I like it because 1/Manny is going to be motivated to make a splash and make himself attractive for next year's FA market and 2/the Reds get a big bat for the second half at a reasonable price.

This is the riverboat gambler in me but I'd be talking to Manny's agent big time trying to work out something. I'm really not interested in a LT contract - just a bargain for his one year comeback run.

Ramirez should be highly motivated and focused on baseball while my bet is that he leaves the circus act behind this year as he pushes for a new 2 or 3 year deal somewhere.

I'd be telling him how the Reds are going to be competitive - he'll be hitting in GAB - he'll be in a lineup with Bruce, Votto and Phillips and the stage will be set for him to play a monster role if he really wants to show the world that he is the best.

I'd stroke him and play him up and offer just enough money, and just the one year. Let someone else pay him the bigger bucks next year and take on the circus that will surely re-emerge in a more prolonged role.

This year I'd ride Phillips-Cozart-Votto-Bruce-Ramirez-Rolen-Stubbs-Heiseywick-Haniraco (my AL Park World Series lineup with a DH) all the way to the big title.

Phhhl
01-29-2012, 10:25 PM
I didn't realize Francis recovered from a torn labrum. You don't see that very often.

Sea Ray
01-30-2012, 10:29 AM
I don't see Manny coming back to do anything but start everyday. If he doesn't you'll be back to pouting Manny. No thanks. I don't see that ending well

Tom Servo
03-20-2012, 06:34 PM
So Francis is having a pretty good spring. Not a great outing today but not a bad one either. Personally I'd be saddened to see him not in the Reds organization when spring training ends.

corkedbat
03-21-2012, 01:07 AM
So Francis is having a pretty good spring. Not a great outing today but not a bad one either. Personally I'd be saddened to see him not in the Reds organization when spring training ends.

MLBTR reporting that Francis said he will be willing report to L'Ville and not exercise his opt-out clause today. If so, VERY GOOD news. :thumbup:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/03/quick-hits-francis-phillies-athletics-torre-mets.html

dougdirt
03-21-2012, 09:17 AM
MLBTR reporting that Francis said he will be willing report to L'Ville and not exercise his opt-out clause today. If so, VERY GOOD news. :thumbup:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/03/quick-hits-francis-phillies-athletics-torre-mets.html

I am assuming they are quoting Fay there....

Nothing that Fay posted suggests Francis said that. Go read what Fay posted on his blog. Francis is never quoted as saying it. At the end of the post, Fay insinuates it as a fact, but reading what Francis said, that isn't what I got out of it at all. Maybe Fay just forgot to quote something, but from what he did write, I don't see anything that says Francis will accept a spot in AAA.

klw
03-21-2012, 09:24 AM
I am assuming they are quoting Fay there....

Nothing that Fay posted suggests Francis said that. Go read what Fay posted on his blog. Francis is never quoted as saying it. At the end of the post, Fay insinuates it as a fact, but reading what Francis said, that isn't what I got out of it at all. Maybe Fay just forgot to quote something, but from what he did write, I don't see anything that says Francis will accept a spot in AAA.

Well Fay ends with this:

Francis said he will go Triple-A Louisville if he doesn’t make the Reds
While that is not in quotes, the language used really does may it seem like Francis actually said this instead of the often seen Fay assumption.

Fay also Tweeted this:


John Fay ‏ @johnfayman Reply Retweet Favorite Open
Francis won't opt out if he doesn't make club. "I'm not going home." On getting job w/ another club: "I'm not thinking about that." #reds
That really adds no clarity but I thought I would throw it out there.

dougdirt
03-21-2012, 09:36 AM
Sure, but he also said he didn't know if his agents were looking at other teams. It just all seems very murky to me with how Fay presented it. Nothing that was quoted out of the mouth of Francis said he would go to AAA. Why would Fay quote the other things, but then not quote where he actually said that, which was the important part? Unless he didn't actually say it and Fay was trying to read between the lines?

757690
03-21-2012, 06:08 PM
Sure, but he also said he didn't know if his agents were looking at other teams. It just all seems very murky to me with how Fay presented it. Nothing that was quoted out of the mouth of Francis said he would go to AAA. Why would Fay quote the other things, but then not quote where he actually said that, which was the important part? Unless he didn't actually say it and Fay was trying to read between the lines?

Fay probably didn't use quotes on those remarks because he didn't hear them directly from Francis, but heard them from another writer who did. We haven't heard Francis or his agent denying it, so I think it's safe to assume he said it to someone.

Kc61
03-21-2012, 06:56 PM
Sounds to me that Francis is saying he will go to Louisville if a better pitching opportunity isn't presented. He wants to pitch and if nobody else is interested, he will go to Louisville and pitch.


He did not say that will go to Louisville even if a better opportunity is presented elsewhere.

dougdirt
03-21-2012, 07:34 PM
Fay probably didn't use quotes on those remarks because he didn't hear them directly from Francis, but heard them from another writer who did. We haven't heard Francis or his agent denying it, so I think it's safe to assume he said it to someone.

So who is the other reporter who heard it? Because no one has stepped forward with that quote from Francis. My guess is, from reading what others also had from the same day, he didn't say it and it was pure speculation based off of what he did say.