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klw
01-26-2012, 11:19 AM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/01/extension-candidate-joey-votto.html
Nice writeup on extension possibilities for Votto. I have been planning to do a look at which teams may be looking for a 1b in 2013 but have been too busy of late. This will have to do for now.


Securing free agent years from the first basemen above cost a minimum average annual value of $21MM. Cabrera and Howard were two years away from free agency when they signed their contracts and Gonzalez was one year away when he signed his, but they didn’t have to sign at a discount. Neither will Votto.

If the Reds wanted to lock the 2010 NL MVP up now, I expect it would cost at least seven additional years for $23MM or so per season. Adding a $161MM commitment to the $26.5MM on Votto’s current contract would keep Votto in Cincinnati through his age 36 season -- the same age through which Gonzalez, Fielder, Howard and Teixeira are under contract.

lollipopcurve
01-26-2012, 11:49 AM
From Fay, quoting Jocketty:


On signing Votto: “I think Joey would like to stay. We haven’t opened up dialogue yet. But, hopefully, we’ll be able to sign and keep him here a while.”

This shocked me. I don't think Jocketty says he thinks Votto would like to stay without having some reason to believe it. I have been convinced Votto will leave. This is the first intimation that maybe he won't. Could just be a throwaway line from WJ that carries no real weight vis-a-vis Votto's priorities, or it could be an indicator that the team has a real shot at keeping him around. Which would be a game changer for the franchise, big time.

dfs
01-26-2012, 12:34 PM
Could just be a throwaway line from WJ that carries no real weight vis-a-vis Votto's priorities\

This. Gm's talk to the press all the time. That doesn't mean you believe what they say.

Weren't you a fan during the Bowden years? ;)

corkedbat
01-26-2012, 02:00 PM
I'm not saying that it's impossible the Reds extend Joey, but I will say that it will be impossible to extend him without hamstringing the club (and its salary structure) unless they can find a way to take the payroll to $100M (or North) by 2014.

corkedbat
01-26-2012, 02:03 PM
I'm not saying that it's impossible the Reds extend Joey, but I will say that it will be impossible to extend him without hamstringing the club (and its salary structure) unless they can find a way to take the payroll to $100M (or North) by 2014. Even then, it is probably gonna take some good-faith concessions on JV's part and creativity on the part of the Reds. If he insists on full-market, I don't see how it can happen.

AmarilloRed
01-26-2012, 02:34 PM
I think the offseason moves done this year were a result of a understanding between Walt and Joey. Bring winning baseball to Cincinnati, and Joey will consider a extension here. I don't know that the Reds will be able to re-sign Votto, but I think the chances are a lot better than when the offseason started.

Spitball
01-26-2012, 05:06 PM
I think the offseason moves done this year were a result of a understanding between Walt and Joey. Bring winning baseball to Cincinnati, and Joey will consider a extension here. I don't know that the Reds will be able to re-sign Votto, but I think the chances are a lot better than when the offseason started.

The Cardinals and Brewers built winners around Pujols and Fielder also...and they left for the big contracts.

Benihana
01-26-2012, 05:15 PM
I think we have our baseline for Votto, as this offer was put forth by one of what is likely to be Votto's top suitors:

www.mlbtraderumors.com


The Dodgers pushed hard for Prince Fielder for weeks and thought they had a legitimate chance of signing him, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com reports. They offered a seven-year deal worth a little more than $160MM that would have provided the first baseman with the chance to opt out after four seasons. Fielder would have earned $26MM or so for the first four years of the deal and $20MM-plus for its final three years.

The Dodgers met Fielder at an undisclosed location a few weeks ago and outgoing owner Frank McCourt approved the team's proposal. Though the Dodgers aren’t unhappy with James Loney, they wanted to add an elite bat to their lineup. The Nationals and Tigers were also finalists for Fielder, whose nine-year, $214MM deal becomes official at a press conference in Detroit this afternoon.

The meeting between Boras and the Dodgers took place in Dallas, tweets Yahoo's Tim Brown. Dodgers execs visited Boras at his Newport Beach offices about a week ago, Dylan Hernandez of the LA Times tweets.

Also of note, from Sheldon:


Reds CEO Bob Castellini believes the team could initiate extension talks with Votto this year, MLB.com’s Mark Sheldon reports. "I think Walt has been in pursuit of that for a while," Castellini said. "It's something we know is a big challenge for us. It's certainly is desirable."

TRF
01-26-2012, 05:23 PM
I think you take most of the 2012 season to see what it takes and to keep a close eye on one Neftali Soto. If he repeats what he did at AA, or improves, The Votto leaving might be a bit easier to swallow.

MikeThierry
01-26-2012, 06:04 PM
I would love to see him leave so he can stop terrorizing Cardinals pitching. All kidding aside, this is another Pujols situation where Votto should always remain a Red. It will be a shame if he goes somewhere else. Some guys just fit the uniform they where and I have a hard time imagining Votto in another uniform somewhere. Pujols does not look right in an Angels uniform. Votto would not look right in a Blue Jays uni.

WVPacman
01-27-2012, 12:22 AM
Man I really hope the reds try their hardest to keep him in a reds uniform.My worst fear is we lose both Votto and Phillips and that would really hurt this team if we lose them by free agency.

RedlegJake
01-27-2012, 12:36 AM
Man I really hope the reds try their hardest to keep him in a reds uniform.My worst fear is we lose both Votto and Phillips and that would really hurt this team if we lose them by free agency.

Yes, I can see that fear but lets face it - other teams have lost superstars and survived and the Reds will likely have to. I think its pretty likely the Reds can replace Phillips. Rodriguez , if he can improve his attitude looks to have a serious bat. Hamilton could be the guy. Maybe Gregorious.

Votto, I'm not sure any team loses a Votto or Pujols or player like that and replaces him with a single player. More an upgrading over all by spreading money across the payroll. If we lose both by free agency don't we still get compensatory picks?

Lets face the facts. For a small market team those picks and their regular draft picks are vital - they simply cannot blow many picks- their is no breathing room - maybe not get a star player every pick or every year, but they must get 3 or 4 everyday players out of every draft and extra picks improve their odds.

Look at the recent flood of players that are either playing or used as trade pieces - that has to continue year in and year out for the Reds and Royals and Brewers of the baseball world to compete.

I know everyone gets sick of hearing about the farm and drafts and prospects and wants to concentrate thinking on Votto and stars and the big team but its the farm that gets us to the main picture. It is always going to be the main thing that gets emphasized in Cincinnati.

If the Reds lose Joey I don't think it will be because they didn't make the best offer they possibly could and still feel they could remain in a position to field a team around him.

What Walt has shown me is that he can adapt to small market conditions and restrictions laid on him and work pretty creatively. Hopefully he can do the same with Votto - whether that ends up with Reds keeping him or in re-tooling the club if they lose him to minimize the damage to the offense.

Captain Hook
01-27-2012, 03:58 AM
Lets just extend him along with BP now and make this the single greatest Reds offseason all time!!!

MikeS21
01-27-2012, 09:22 AM
I think the offseason moves done this year were a result of a understanding between Walt and Joey. Bring winning baseball to Cincinnati, and Joey will consider a extension here. I don't know that the Reds will be able to re-sign Votto, but I think the chances are a lot better than when the offseason started.
As I have said in numerous threads, Votto has not gone about this extension deal like "normal" players. Look at Brandon Phillips. He has talked about wanting to stay. He has made positive overtones that he wants to stay. He is out mingling with the fans. He "tweets" that he wants to stay. You get the feeling he really wants to be here.

I don't see any of that with Votto. It's like he avoids situations because he knows the subject of extension will come up. All he would need to say in order to diffuse some of the talk is something like: "The Reds want me here long-term. I want to be here long-term. I'm sure something will get done." (And say it with some sort of conviction). It makes no difference then if negotiations fall apart down the road. At least Votto "acts" like he wants to be here. To me, it seems as if Votto is intentionally trying NOT to give any false hopes about his staying.

It looks as if Votto has already made up his mind to leave. He just doesn't want to say anything.

Krusty
01-27-2012, 09:37 AM
It won't be the end of the world if Votto leaves as a free agent. Pete Rose left as a free agent and the Reds won the division the next season.

Reds Freak
01-27-2012, 10:17 AM
As I have said in numerous threads, Votto has not gone about this extension deal like "normal" players. Look at Brandon Phillips. He has talked about wanting to stay. He has made positive overtones that he wants to stay. He is out mingling with the fans. He "tweets" that he wants to stay. You get the feeling he really wants to be here.

I don't see any of that with Votto. It's like he avoids situations because he knows the subject of extension will come up. All he would need to say in order to diffuse some of the talk is something like: "The Reds want me here long-term. I want to be here long-term. I'm sure something will get done." (And say it with some sort of conviction). It makes no difference then if negotiations fall apart down the road. At least Votto "acts" like he wants to be here. To me, it seems as if Votto is intentionally trying NOT to give any false hopes about his staying.

It looks as if Votto has already made up his mind to leave. He just doesn't want to say anything.

Apples to oranges here. I don't know either player personally, but do you really expect Joey Votto, as private as we know him to be, to be tweeting and mingling and going on caravans every year? That's just not his personality and I wouldn't draw any conclusions about his desire to stay in Cincinnati because he's not doing those things...

medford
01-27-2012, 10:34 AM
As I have said in numerous threads, Votto has not gone about this extension deal like "normal" players. Look at Brandon Phillips. He has talked about wanting to stay. He has made positive overtones that he wants to stay. He is out mingling with the fans. He "tweets" that he wants to stay. You get the feeling he really wants to be here.

I don't see any of that with Votto. It's like he avoids situations because he knows the subject of extension will come up. All he would need to say in order to diffuse some of the talk is something like: "The Reds want me here long-term. I want to be here long-term. I'm sure something will get done." (And say it with some sort of conviction). It makes no difference then if negotiations fall apart down the road. At least Votto "acts" like he wants to be here. To me, it seems as if Votto is intentionally trying NOT to give any false hopes about his staying.

It looks as if Votto has already made up his mind to leave. He just doesn't want to say anything.

Brandon was out tweeting w/ fans 2 seasons ago, involved in the community, makes the Reds Caravan every season (how many all star level vets across the league would do that every season?) At the end of the day, I think that's just who Brandon is, he enjoys the interaction and attention he gets thru these type of things.

On the other hand, Joey's always been more private. He strikes as a very "no-nonsense" type of guy. Get the job done, and just leave me alone. I wouldn't gauge Joey's lack of "mingling" with the fans as an indication one way or another that he wants to be here. In some regards, I'd look at it as a good thing for the Reds, does Joey want to be a big money guy in a big market where he'll be harassed far more than he would here?

Homer Bailey
01-27-2012, 10:55 AM
It won't be the end of the world if Votto leaves as a free agent. Pete Rose left as a free agent and the Reds won the division the next season.

I know this wasn't really the point of your statement, but 2013 Joey Votto > 1978 Pete Rose. Losing Votto will hurt this team a lot more than losing Rose did.

And I completely expect to lose Votto.

MikeThierry
01-27-2012, 01:01 PM
I know this wasn't really the point of your statement, but 2013 Joey Votto > 1978 Pete Rose. Losing Votto will hurt this team a lot more than losing Rose did.

And I completely expect to lose Votto.

I thought that was an odd comparision as well. The 79 Reds still had multiple hall of famers and boarderline hall of famers on that team. As much upside as this year's Reds team has, it has no where near the caliber of proven talent as the 79 Reds. Heck, they still had Morgan and Bench for god sakes. Does the current Reds have that level of talent?

Roy Tucker
01-27-2012, 01:24 PM
I caught just a bit of Lance McAlister talking to Jocketty last night on Sports Talk. They discussed Votto.

Jocketty sounds GM-ishly optimistic about long term signing him, but admitted that Fielder's 9 yr. contract with the Tigers hurt their chances. Before then he said he was feeling pretty good, but now he wasn't as positive. He said they would make a strong effort though.

TRF
01-27-2012, 01:51 PM
On the surface, the Fielder deal hurts Votto, because the Tigers overpaid to get a "legacy" player in the fold. Fielder is a monster talent, but being the son of another iconic Tiger's player will put butts in the seats. And the Tigers are coming off a successful season, this only helps their ticket sales making the contract, at least in the short term more palatable.

Votto will have many suitors, but it sounds like he's not interested in anywhere but Toronto or Cincinnati. Also, I don't see a major market with a 1B need. Maybe Miami. Possibly LA Dodgers. That's about it.

And if Soto puts up a monster year at AAA, I'll survive if Votto is gone.

Eric_the_Red
01-27-2012, 02:09 PM
I caught just a bit of Lance McAlister talking to Jocketty last night on Sports Talk. They discussed Votto.

Jocketty sounds GM-ishly optimistic about long term signing him, but admitted that Fielder's 9 yr. contract with the Tigers hurt their chances. Before then he said he was feeling pretty good, but now he wasn't as positive. He said they would make a strong effort though.

I heard the same interview and the one Walt gave Mo Egger about 15 minutes prior, and came away with the complete opposite reaction. To me Walt sounded like someone saying he was going to try to learn how to fly by jumping off a building- he'd give it a shot but seemed to know how it would turn out.

REDREAD
01-27-2012, 02:20 PM
Apples to oranges here. I don't know either player personally, but do you really expect Joey Votto, as private as we know him to be, to be tweeting and mingling and going on caravans every year? That's just not his personality and I wouldn't draw any conclusions about his desire to stay in Cincinnati because he's not doing those things...

I really don't think it's wise for a player to say stuff like Phillips has been doing. If Phillips does leave as a FA, there's going to be bad feelings from some fans.
I remember one of Mercker's season's here. He kept saying he wanted to come back, and would take a discount. The deal couldn't get done. He signed with the Cards, then told the press there that he liked the Cards because they had a good chance of contending.. That caused a lot of bad feelings on the board..

Honestly, if I was a player, I wouldn't say too much either.
Also, I don't rule out Votto staying. There's really no urgency for him to talk extension.. He's got a ton of money on his current deal. Why not just live in the moment and worry about an extension/FA later..

MikeS21
01-28-2012, 08:46 PM
Without question, personality or not, Joey Votto is the main cog on this team. I would like to see him retire here in about nine or ten years. I think they could build a dynasty around him.

I guess all I'm saying is that Votto doesn't strike me as wanting to be here NOW. That's the main reason why I don't think he will stay any longer than he has to.

Raisor
01-28-2012, 09:47 PM
I guess all I'm saying is that Votto doesn't strike me as wanting to be here NOW.

oh please

RedlegJake
01-29-2012, 01:21 AM
I've always said I think Votto will be gone but not because he doesn't want to be in Cincy - Cincy won't be able to compete with the money. If Joey has a 2012 and 2013 in line with his past 2 seasons he will get a Fielder type contract. His numbers are monstrous and he is a special hitter.

30 years ago he would have been a lifetime Red - the legacy slugger of a generation - but this is now. Hopefully Soto is for real, Bruce improves his power numbers a bit, either Francisco or Frazier puts solid numbers up and claims third as his own and Cozart is the real deal at shortstop. If Henry Rodriguez and/or Billy Hamilton emerges as a quality major leaguer (I give Rodriguez a better chance at a stellar career) the Reds won't be too damaged.

As it always does in baseball I think the Reds A.J. (after Joey) will depend entirely on how they use the money saved from Arroyo/BP/Rolen/Votto contracts to keep the rest of their team and better their pitching staff.

Pitching is and will be the name of the game. Put the bulk of that money in maintaining a quality starting rotation the Reds will be good. Go back to the staffs of the past decade and it doesn't matter how good the lineup is does it? Trade for pitching, Draft pitching, Sign FA pitching, have a spot for the mid to late January pitching bargain that pops up each year (Madson, Oswalt). Pitching, pitching, pitching. That's how the Reds survive A.J.

WebScorpion
01-29-2012, 10:00 PM
Joey has never said he wants to leave Cincinnati when he becomes a free agent. He's only said he wants to test the free agent market. Everyone just jumps to the conclusion that this means he'll leave. Joey strikes me as the kind of guy who will come up with a monetary value for staying where he is, with the players that he's come up with, and the management team and environment of the Cincinnati Reds and make his decision based on that. He'll field offers from all teams and he's savvy enough to know that sticking around here has true value...what does going strictly for the money say about him? I feel certain he'll take that into account and hopefully the Reds will be able to give him an offer that is competitive enough to keep him here. They won't have to beat the other offers, just stay in the same solar system with them and treat him with the same respect they've always had. If they give him their best offer, I think he'll stick around, but that's just me... :D

TRF
01-30-2012, 06:28 PM
I think I'll probably still root for the Reds when Soto is the 1B. Or Duran. Or whoever replaces Joey Votto.

I think we all will.