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Captain Hook
01-29-2012, 05:00 PM
I've noticed that RZ hasn't had much discussion regarding the Reds skipper this offseason.This is the last year Dusty is under contract and considering that the Reds team he'll have control of this year is likely the best he's had on paper here in Cincinnati it's either playoffs or bust for our coach.I have little doubt that that's the case and even if the Reds do make the playoffs but fall flat on their faces it could be enough for Walt and Bob to decide to move on.It's even possible that if the team struggles the first few months that Dusty is replaced.So what do you guys think?

reds1869
01-29-2012, 05:03 PM
The other factor is that Dusty is no spring chicken. If the Reds lose, he may hang it up (voluntarily or not). If the Reds win, he may hang it up. Either way I think there is a chance he won't be back in 2013. My feelings about his game management aside, I really like Dusty as a man and will be kind of sad when he is no longer here, even though I'll probably have heartburn 162 fewer times per season.

mth123
01-29-2012, 05:10 PM
Add that the Reds seem to be grooming Bell and won't be able to keep him in AAA forever.

It would be a decent budgetary move as well. I'm guessing Dusty will want even more money to return. A first year guy like Bell will probably work cheap to start. Saving $3 to $5 Million in the Manager's spot might be part of the plan. If you use the minor league system to groom cheaper replacements on the field, why not in the Manager's spot as well when an up and comer is on the verge and the current guy is expensive and getting long in the tooth?

Captain Hook
01-29-2012, 05:10 PM
The other factor is that Dusty is no spring chicken. If the Reds lose, he may hang it up (voluntarily or not). If the Reds win, he may hang it up. Either way I think there is a chance he won't be back in 2013. My feelings about his game management aside, I really like Dusty as a man and will be kind of sad when he is no longer here, even though I'll probably have heartburn 162 fewer times per season.

I can't see that happening but you never know.Something outside of baseball could happen but if Dusty and the Reds win big this year he'll be back imo.

AtomicDumpling
01-29-2012, 05:12 PM
All the offseason additions have Reds Nation predicting a playoff berth. Expectations have been raised. If the Reds disappoint the fans and fail to make the playoffs the fans are going to call for Dusty's head to roll.

defender
01-29-2012, 05:26 PM
I like Dusty and hope he gets it done, but I don't think there will be a huge extension. He already is one of the highest paid managers and managers rarely get more than 3 years.

I would assume a modest raise and a 2 year deal, or a bigger raise for a one year deal.

oneupper
01-29-2012, 06:13 PM
I voted that the REDS fail to make the PO and Dusty is fired although technically they wouldn't have to fire him, simply not renew his contract.

Joseph
01-29-2012, 07:53 PM
I'm in the camp that they might make the PO but Dusty won't be back.

757690
01-29-2012, 08:31 PM
Add that the Reds seem to be grooming Bell and won't be able to keep him in AAA forever.

It would be a decent budgetary move as well. I'm guessing Dusty will want even more money to return. A first year guy like Bell will probably work cheap to start. Saving $3 to $5 Million in the Manager's spot might be part of the plan. If you use the minor league system to groom cheaper replacements on the field, why not in the Manager's spot as well when an up and comer is on the verge and the current guy is expensive and getting long in the tooth?

My guess is the plan is to have Bell in AAA long enough for the talent from Dayton last year make it to AAA, so they can all come up around the same time and give Bell some experience. So a two year extension for Dusty would make sense, imo.

For the record, I voted Dusty gets the job done, but that just means they make the playoffs, can't hold the manager responsible for how far they go. I don't think he'd get a huge extension, but longer than a year.

redsmetz
01-29-2012, 09:09 PM
I like Dusty and hope he gets it done, but I don't think there will be a huge extension. He already is one of the highest paid managers and managers rarely get more than 3 years.

I would assume a modest raise and a 2 year deal, or a bigger raise for a one year deal.

My only quibble with the 1st choice was that it was the only extension option. I don't believe it will be "huge". I think Dusty's nearing retirement in a couple of years.

Vottomatic
01-29-2012, 09:22 PM
I like him as a person and a father figure, but I think his managing stinks.

WebScorpion
01-29-2012, 09:50 PM
Where's the option for "The Reds win the 2012 World Series and Dusty is fired anyway!" ?? ;)

Best of both worlds! Having our cake and eating it too! We can dream can't we? :lol:

WMR
01-29-2012, 10:05 PM
I would love to bring in someone else and put those millions on the field instead of in Dusty's pocket.

remdog
01-30-2012, 01:30 AM
Sacramento is fairly nice in the summer and I think Dusty should go there and BBQ and, finally, the toothpicks and wrist bans will be worth something.

Rem

fearofpopvol1
01-30-2012, 01:33 AM
If the Reds don't make the playoffs this year with all the money and acquisitions made, Dusty will be fired and I don't have any doubts about that.

edabbs44
01-30-2012, 07:14 AM
If the Reds don't make the playoffs this year with all the money and acquisitions made, Dusty will be fired and I don't have any doubts about that.

Is Dusty in a no win situation this season? If they win 90 and his managing style stays the same, does he get no credit because of all the acquisitions?

redsmetz
01-30-2012, 07:45 AM
Is Dusty in a no win situation this season? If they win 90 and his managing style stays the same, does he get no credit because of all the acquisitions?

I think with some here, Dusty's been in a can't win situation pretty much from day one. Personally, and I've said this for ages, I'm glad to finally have some longevity in the seat. I'd like to see him back for another two years and then retire. He'll be 65 at the end of the 2014 season. BTW, David Bell would be 42 for the 2015 season.

Vottomatic
01-30-2012, 08:05 AM
I think the jury is out on Dusty's laid back style. It might have worked in 2010 for the young guys development and chemistry. But at what point does a manager crack the whip when it's needed? Dusty seems to only be able to be laid back.

11larkin11
01-30-2012, 12:22 PM
Interesting note, Dusty is exactly .500 as Reds Manager. Not counting Mackanin, he's the first since Trader Jack.

bucksfan2
01-30-2012, 01:40 PM
I think if the Reds make the playoffs Dusty gets a 3 year extension. To be completely honest he will deserve an extension if he guides the Reds to two playoff appearances in the span of 3 years.

I do however feel its put up or shut up time for Dusty. If he doesn't make the playoffs I don't see a single way he is retained. That said I do like the consistancy that the front office and management has had over the course of Dusty's/Walt's tenure.

remdog
01-30-2012, 03:30 PM
Sorry, bucksfan, Dusty even if he is '.500', is a terrrible excuse for a manager. I disliked him when he was with the Giants, and I disliked him when he was with the Cubs and I especially disliked it when the Reds hired him and, considring the talent he's been given here, I consider him a complete dud.

IMO, Macknikin would have been better.

Look what Kirk Gibson, someone with a little fire, did with the D'backs this past season. Meanwhile Dusty just keeps on chewing toothpicks.

Rem

REDREAD
01-30-2012, 03:33 PM
Cast strikes me as one of these guys that puts a high premium on "leadership". Not saying it is right or wrong, but that's my impression.

I think Dusty stays here as long as he wants to.

bucksfan2
01-30-2012, 03:39 PM
Sorry, bucksfan, Dusty even if he is '.500', is a terrrible excuse for a manager. I disliked him when he was with the Giants, and I disliked him when he was with the Cubs and I especially disliked it when the Reds hired him and, considring the talent he's been given here, I consider him a complete dud.

IMO, Macknikin would have been better.

Look what Kirk Gibson, someone with a little fire, did with the D'backs this past season. Meanwhile Dusty just keeps on chewing toothpicks.

Rem

The Pete Macknikin legend continues to grow.

Don't buy the who fire aspect of things, used to, but I don't anymore. Too much goes into the game of baseball to attribute it to a firey leader. I don't think lighting a fire under some of the guys would have made them hit a baseball better or have a pitcher pitch better.

Dusty is what he is. There have been plenty of "bad" managers who have won world series and plenty of "awesome" managers who have skippered bad teams.

dfs
01-30-2012, 05:02 PM
Dusty Baker currently ranks 21st as a manager in all time games won.
Two more decent seasons and he will rank 15th or 16th.
Everybody who has more wins than Baker is either in the hall of fame, not eligible yet or is named Gene Mauch or Ralph Houk. Everybody who has more wins than Baker did it in more seasons. Dusty's winning percentage is respectable, above McKeon and Piniella lifetime.

These are the gold old days.

Baker may not be all that and a bag of chips, but reds fans don't have to look back very far to find MUCH worse managers than the guy chewing the toothpicks.

kaldaniels
01-30-2012, 05:10 PM
Sorry, bucksfan, Dusty even if he is '.500', is a terrrible excuse for a manager. I disliked him when he was with the Giants, and I disliked him when he was with the Cubs and I especially disliked it when the Reds hired him and, considring the talent he's been given here, I consider him a complete dud.

IMO, Macknikin would have been better.

Look what Kirk Gibson, someone with a little fire, did with the D'backs this past season. Meanwhile Dusty just keeps on chewing toothpicks.

Rem

The argument about Dusty aside, how many wins do you think Gibson meant to the 94-68 DBacks? Or in other words, what would their record be with a "replacement level" manager? ;)

Roy Tucker
01-30-2012, 05:39 PM
I like him as a person and a father figure, but I think his managing stinks.

Yeah, Dusty's a cool guy and I'd like to have a beer with him.

I think his strength is his relationships with his players and that we don't see very much. At least directly. It's all in the clubhouse and how guys play for him.

With the way the Reds are setting up the roster, I think the team has to do well or else he'll get eased out. But with any kind of success, he's here as long as he wants.

TRF
01-30-2012, 05:46 PM
I'm trying to imagine a Redszone 1971-1977.

So if the Reds win the WS, there are posters that would still want Dusty fired. And if they won back to back WS's? probably.

unreal.

_Sir_Charles_
01-30-2012, 06:31 PM
I didn't vote, but that's because the options were so limited. I think the Reds make the playoffs and Dusty gets extended, but it's only 1 or 2 years. I can foresee Dusty wanting to retire in the next few years. And I also can see the Reds wanting to get Bell up here (why, I have no clue? Personally I'd love to see Sweet get a shot before Bell).

_Sir_Charles_
01-30-2012, 06:33 PM
And all arguments for and against Dusty aside, there's a lot to be said for managerial stability. I do NOT want to get back on that manager merry-go-round again.

fearofpopvol1
01-30-2012, 07:25 PM
Is Dusty in a no win situation this season? If they win 90 and his managing style stays the same, does he get no credit because of all the acquisitions?

There's really a 2 year window here and this year is the best chance they Reds have to make the playoffs. If they fall short, I think they will bring in someone else to try to make it happen next year.

I don't know if it's fair or not, but manager firings rarely are based on fairness.

redsmetz
01-30-2012, 07:30 PM
I'm trying to imagine a Redszone 1971-1977.

So if the Reds win the WS, there are posters that would still want Dusty fired. And if they won back to back WS's? probably.

unreal.

I've long thought about doing a thread on such a thing. Can you imagine the hue & cry about an Ed Armbrister or Bill Plummer, or Darrel Chaney? Not to mention Pete Rose moving to 3rd base? I may do it yet.

Jpup
01-31-2012, 12:34 PM
I have came around on Dusty. I like him and would welcome an extension before the season starts. I don't like a manager working on a 1 year deal unless that's what he wants. I would extend him thru 2014 before Spring Training. He's done a fine job with the Reds. I don't agree with everything he does but the good far out weighs the bad.

TRF
01-31-2012, 12:43 PM
I've long thought about doing a thread on such a thing. Can you imagine the hue & cry about an Ed Armbrister or Bill Plummer, or Darrel Chaney? Not to mention Pete Rose moving to 3rd base? I may do it yet.

oooh. How about a classic game thread. just pick a game, have a poster or posters add PBP, and commence the arguin'!

might be fun.

RichRed
01-31-2012, 12:48 PM
I've long thought about doing a thread on such a thing. Can you imagine the hue & cry about an Ed Armbrister or Bill Plummer, or Darrel Chaney? Not to mention Pete Rose moving to 3rd base? I may do it yet.

Sparky's "Captain Hook" routine would probably have driven some posters completely over the edge. Hell, I might've been one of 'em.

remdog
01-31-2012, 04:40 PM
Walter Alston worked on one year contracts his whole career and it worked out pretty well.

Rem

TRF
01-31-2012, 05:26 PM
Walter Alston worked on one year contracts his whole career and it worked out pretty well.

Rem

That was 40 years ago rem.

Captain Hook
01-31-2012, 05:35 PM
I have came around on Dusty. I like him and would welcome an extension before the season starts. I don't like a manager working on a 1 year deal unless that's what he wants. I would extend him thru 2014 before Spring Training. He's done a fine job with the Reds. I don't agree with everything he does but the good far out weighs the bad.

I just can't agree with extending a manager after a season that his team was picked by most to be the favorite to win the division only to have that same team finish below .500.I'm all for giving him a chance this upcoming season but the team has to do well for him to stick around past this year.

TRF
01-31-2012, 05:58 PM
I just can't agree with extending a manager after a season that his team was picked by most to be the favorite to win the division only to have that same team finish below .500.I'm all for giving him a chance this upcoming season but the team has to do well for him to stick around past this year.

Didn't Jocketty get extended? Didn't blind squirrels in India realize that the pitching depth was a tad overrated?

Blaming 2011 on Dusty and not Walt misses the mark.

Captain Hook
01-31-2012, 06:14 PM
Didn't Jocketty get extended? Didn't blind squirrels in India realize that the pitching depth was a tad overrated?

Blaming 2011 on Dusty and not Walt misses the mark.

Who's blaming him?The team had a lossing season last year and he still has his job.The team made a commitment to Dusty when they hired him and he's been given the chance to fullfil that contract along with a chance to earn a new deal.If Baker wants to remain a highly paid coach with a mid market team then he needs to get this team to the playoffs despite any bumps in the road they may come across.That's the way it should be imo.

edabbs44
01-31-2012, 06:25 PM
Didn't Jocketty get extended? Didn't blind squirrels in India realize that the pitching depth was a tad overrated?

Blaming 2011 on Dusty and not Walt misses the mark.

I don't get why there always has to be someone to blame.

Captain Hook
01-31-2012, 11:50 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/20412/five-managers-on-the-hot-seat

remdog
02-01-2012, 01:33 AM
:)
That was 40 years ago rem.

Yeah, I was just a pup then, but I guess you looked it up. :)

Rem

RedlegJake
02-01-2012, 02:58 AM
If the Reds don't make the PO then Dusty will be gone. Even if they make the PO and get bounced in the first round he'll probably be gone. If they go farther than that I believe he'll be offered a year to year deal. Like others I see them grooming Bell for the job and Dusty won't be there forever.

TRF
02-01-2012, 10:02 AM
:)

Yeah, I was just a pup then, but I guess you looked it up. :)

Rem

I was a pup myself, but don't actually remember him as manager.

I was more interested in Crayons.

TRF
02-01-2012, 10:10 AM
I don't get why there always has to be someone to blame.

I'm sorry... What planet do you live on?

It's ALWAYS been about performance, credit and blame. Period. Since the sport began. Since well, forever.

Krivsky was fired because the owner blamed him for not winning. Jocketty followed that up, by not winning for 2 seasons. then he won, did nothing and GASP! didn't win. Is it his fault or Dusty's that the rotation was decimated by injuries? No. Is it his fault he didn't see Rolen missing significant time at 3B? yep. Is it his fault LF was a black hole of suck? yep. Is it his fault Stubbs suffered a sophomore slump? No. Is it his fault SS was another black hole of suck? yeah, probably.

But IMO he handled Leake perfectly following his lack of maturity in the 2010 offseason. Neither Cueto nor Bailey were rushed. Chapman... debacle, a wasted year of development.

So if we have to give credit where it is due, a tremendous offseason, then yeah we get to blame as well.

Roy Tucker
02-01-2012, 11:04 AM
I don't get why there always has to be someone to blame.

It's the way of the modern day world. Blame always has to be assigned and the blamee punished.

The concept of something going wrong and nobody responsible for it no longer exists. It's always someone's fault.