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View Full Version : Votto to Jays inevitable?



Ohioballplayer
02-02-2012, 01:01 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/02/01/trib-columnist-votto-to-blue-jays-an-inevitable-acquisition/

not sure if anyone has seen this yet?

alett12
02-02-2012, 01:43 PM
In my opinion that is a load of crap. I think when Votto hits the free agent market he will end up in toronto but I don't see the reds trading him anytime soon. If they did trade him however i wouldn't mind seeing Jose Bautista and Brett Lawrie in Reds uniforms.

dMaus14
02-02-2012, 01:48 PM
You will not get both Bautista and Lawrie because 1 year of Votto is not worth that. I would like to get Escobar and pitching prospects like McGuire and Nicolino. Move Cozart to 2B and sign David Wright.

alett12
02-02-2012, 01:53 PM
You will not get both Bautista and Lawrie because 1 year of Votto is not worth that. I would like to get Escobar and pitching prospects like McGuire and Nicolino. Move Cozart to 2B and sign David Wright.

No you won't get near that much but that is what I think the reds should start the asking price at if they were to trade him. I do like the pitching prospects though but just get Lawrie and either put him at 2B or leave him where they have him at 3B

dMaus14
02-02-2012, 02:09 PM
I think that if we are out of it at the deadline this year or don't make the playoffs this year, we need to trade him. Our farm system is backloaded and position player heavy. We should look to get 2 of their top 5 pitching prospects, an OF prospect and maybe LInd or Escobar. That pushes our pitching prospects higher and could help us continually produce cheap producing players like the Rays.

alett12
02-02-2012, 02:12 PM
The only problem I would have with trading him is who would you have take over? Fazier? Fransisco? Neftali Soto? Cairo? bring in Casey Kotchman? I just don't see them trading him at this point or even if they are out of it at the all star break

[deleted]
02-02-2012, 03:14 PM
I'm fairly certain the Reds will not trade Joey Votto.

I'm also fairly certain Joey Votto will walk away in two years.

Cincinnati won't have any leverage in any trade scenario - every person involved in baseball knows that Votto will probably walk after 2013. If they know we need to trade him, the offers won't be as strong - especially considering he'll probably test free agency regardless. Toronto won't blow up its farm for Joey Votto when they can just be a little patient and throw a huge contract at him in two years.

The only time his value will be at its peak is during the season - fringe playoff teams will always overpay for a player that can push them over the edge. For us to entertain something like that, though, we'd have to be totally out of it at the deadline. I don't see that happening in the near future.

I think the Reds will keep their heads down and push through the next few years with everything they've got. They'll make Votto offers, he'll pass, sign a 200 million+ deal in Toronto or LA or wherever, and we'll re-allocate those funds into something else to help the team.

Big Red Hoss
02-02-2012, 03:18 PM
Biggest Key to Votto is Will the fans respond this year. Fans need to come to the ball park in full force and fill it up. I believe if the fans bring the money in the ownership will offer what he wants. Then its his personal decision. That you may never know. He seems happy in Cinci and has a good realationship with his teamates. So hopefully he will want to stay. If they are winning the next to years and everything is still intact I think he would stay.

SidneySlicker
02-02-2012, 04:22 PM
Biggest Key to Votto is Will the fans respond this year. Fans need to come to the ball park in full force and fill it up. I believe if the fans bring the money in the ownership will offer what he wants. Then its his personal decision. That you may never know. He seems happy in Cinci and has a good realationship with his teamates. So hopefully he will want to stay. If they are winning the next to years and everything is still intact I think he would stay.

I highly doubt the fans supporting the team or even their embracing Votto to a greater extent will ultimately play any factor in Votto's choice as a free agent. Joey has always appeared detached from Cincy and even the Reds to a certain extent. He's always been a bottom line guy and in free agency his bottom line will no doubt be money. The Reds have made the move to win now so I'd be very surprised if they trade him at any point, but if they did I wouldn't fault them for it.

SweetLou1990
02-02-2012, 04:33 PM
I highly doubt the fans supporting the team or even their embracing Votto to a greater extent will ultimately play any factor in Votto's choice as a free agent. Joey has always appeared detached from Cincy and even the Reds to a certain extent. He's always been a bottom line guy and in free agency his bottom line will no doubt be money. The Reds have made the move to win now so I'd be very surprised if they trade him at any point, but if they did I wouldn't fault them for it.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Joe is prob going to leave, need to make 2 serious runs in the next 2 years and the only way Joe is traded is at the deadline in 2013 if the Reds are seriously out of it.

joshua
02-03-2012, 01:41 AM
I highly doubt the fans supporting the team or even their embracing Votto to a greater extent will ultimately play any factor in Votto's choice as a free agent. Joey has always appeared detached from Cincy and even the Reds to a certain extent. He's always been a bottom line guy and in free agency his bottom line will no doubt be money. The Reds have made the move to win now so I'd be very surprised if they trade him at any point, but if they did I wouldn't fault them for it.

He's saying if the fans come out in full force the next two years, we'll be able to afford him.

Larkin88
02-03-2012, 07:48 AM
He's saying if the fans come out in full force the next two years, we'll be able to afford him.

Maybe. And I really, really hope you're right. But assuming that happens, our payroll would still only rise to the level of the Brewers or Cardinals in a best case situation. Playoff revenue could help supplement that, but our current TV deal isn't spectacular.

It's just tough for small-market teams to cut checks that big, for that long, unless they have a creative way to account for it in the years that contract spans. It will be interesting to see how they handle it.

I doubt he moves before he hits free agency. As others have pointed out, the Reds don't really have a ton of leverage at this point. Makes sense for both sides to wait.

texasdave
02-03-2012, 08:24 AM
He's saying if the fans come out in full force the next two years, we'll be able to afford him.

Unfortunately, that is only half of the equation.

Redsnake
02-03-2012, 08:26 AM
I've been saying for a while that I think the Reds should trade for Bautista or a package deal of Lawrie. I now realize that neither trade would happen on the Jays part.

So I think the Reds should hold on to Votto for the length of the contract. Get there compesations picks in 2014. By then the Reds should have drafted another 1b prospect to go along with Soto.

I will say the longer the Reds hold onto Votto the more comfortable he will be in this environment. From what I read he is a different cat. Along with that, after the 2013 season the Reds and Jays might be two teams going in opposite directions completely. One contender and one at the bottom of the scrap heep. Lets all hope the Reds are the one on top. As of now Walt is trying to do his best to make sure the Reds is that team that makes a player want to stay.

alett12
02-03-2012, 08:37 AM
I'll be curious to see how soto adjusts to AAA if he does well then i'll be fine

will5979
02-03-2012, 09:00 AM
Everyone needs to step back and shut the **** up about Joey Votto leaving. He is here for this season and next, enjoy it while it last and he isn't gone yet. Who's to say that he wouldn't resign sometime between now and the end of 2013?

Everyone just shut the **** up and enjoy these next 2 seasons, they are going to be magical and memorable. You are all a bunch of damn buzzkills.

RedsBrick
02-03-2012, 09:09 AM
The "live-for-the-moment" Reds comment is hilarious. If you call spending years to scout, draft and develop players and then using a couple of those players to go out and get a few other needed pieces to blend with the talent you drafted to field a contender, then, yes, this is a "live-for-the-moment" organization.

It's called being a major league organization. If this is LFTM, what are the Yankees and Red Sox? And what are the Royals and Pirates?

Clearly that comment got under my skin a bit? Ha.

texasdave
02-03-2012, 09:28 AM
Everyone needs to step back and shut the **** up about Joey Votto leaving. He is here for this season and next, enjoy it while it last and he isn't gone yet. Who's to say that he wouldn't resign sometime between now and the end of 2013?

Everyone just shut the **** up and enjoy these next 2 seasons, they are going to be magical and memorable. You are all a bunch of damn buzzkills.

And with that, nominations for Sundeck Post of the Year are closed. :laugh:

will5979
02-03-2012, 10:12 AM
The "live-for-the-moment" Reds comment is hilarious. If you call spending years to scout, draft and develop players and then using a couple of those players to go out and get a few other needed pieces to blend with the talent you drafted to field a contender, then, yes, this is a "live-for-the-moment" organization.

It's called being a major league organization. If this is LFTM, what are the Yankees and Red Sox? And what are the Royals and Pirates?

Clearly that comment got under my skin a bit? Ha.

Well I'm tired of waiting and building for the future. Lets win NOW. We may be dead in 3 years. So in other words I would rather have back to back winning years with a pennant and a World Championship and have 5 years of misery, there is nothing like watching your team win a World Series, I was lucky enough to have that experience as an 11 year old when we won the 90 World Series, now I want the experience as an adult...translation, I want to have a wild drunken party to celebrate my team's 6th Championship...AT ALL COSTS, including mortaging the future.

swaisuc
02-03-2012, 10:16 AM
I don't see any reason why the Reds should or would listen to offers before July 31, 2013. If we're out of the 2013 race and can't extend him, then listen. As it stands now, we're built to win in 2012 and 2013 and it makes no sense to flip our best player for prospects.

alett12
02-03-2012, 11:24 AM
I don't see any reason why the Reds should or would listen to offers before July 31, 2013. If we're out of the 2013 race and can't extend him, then listen. As it stands now, we're built to win in 2012 and 2013 and it makes no sense to flip our best player for prospects.

Ok, so say Lawrie goes out win ROY this season hits .320 with 15 HRs and 85 RBIs and the Reds make trade with the Jays the offseason after this one flipping Votto for Lawrie and a top pitching prospect, would you be upset witht that? Bringing in one of the best up and coming players who can play at 2B, 3B, or SS possibly and bringing in a potential ace?

Larkin88
02-03-2012, 11:50 AM
Ok, so say Lawrie goes out win ROY this season hits .320 with 15 HRs and 85 RBIs and the Reds make trade with the Jays the offseason after this one flipping Votto for Lawrie and a top pitching prospect, would you be upset witht that? Bringing in one of the best up and coming players who can play at 2B, 3B, or SS possibly and bringing in a potential ace?

Highlighted exactly why the Reds won't trade Votto away, the known MVP-caliber commodity, when they've built a team to contend in the window he's still in Cincinnati.

alett12
02-03-2012, 12:01 PM
Highlighted exactly why the Reds won't trade Votto away, the known MVP-caliber commodity, when they've built a team to contend in the window he's still in Cincinnati.

I don't want to see him traded and I would love to see him in a reds uniform for the rest of his career and the possibly after SS is because he isn't great there but can play there. I don't want to see Votto go anywhere though.

Big Red Hoss
02-05-2012, 11:24 AM
I will enjoy him while he is here. I am hopefull Bob and walt will do eveything they can to keep him. I agree with the post earlier, lets forget for the year he is leaving and enjoy the hype and season that is coming.

Fireball
02-05-2012, 12:08 PM
I don't think it's unreasonable to worry / wonder if we can keep Joey, but I do side with the people who say to enjoy him while we have him.

I would like to keep him, but that's up to Joey. We seem to have his replacement in this minors in Soto if Joey decides he wants to go elsewhere. Also, the team's performance the next couple of years has a lot to do with it, even more reason the next couple years are important. If the Reds win a lot the next couple years, I think that we have a very good chance of bringing him back.

dMaus14
02-05-2012, 05:35 PM
Yes, I would love to win it all in the next two years but I dont want to lose it all and suck the following 5 years either. I think the payroll that we need to get to that can have us keep Votto, Phillips and still allow us to make moves is around $95M. But as for trading for Votto, it all depends on 2012. If we don't make the playoffs in 2012, I think it only makes sense to trade him. If we do make the playoffs, we should hold on to him obviously. Just have to see how it goes.

DGullett35
02-05-2012, 06:26 PM
We're in a better situation than the Brewers had with prince. Lets try our hardest to win this year and next and if we have no chance of signing Votto dump him for as many prospects or a TOR ace at next years deadline. If we cant sign him I dont want to see us holding onto him only to let him walk. The only way that would be acceptable is if we had a legitimate shot of winning the series next year which is possible. IDK that would be a tough spot for this organization.

Say we have the best record in the NL at the deadline next year, What would you like to see this organization do keep him? or trade him?(assuming he isn't going to resign with us)

Big Red Hoss
02-06-2012, 12:10 PM
Say we have the best record in the NL at the deadline next year, What would you like to see this organization do keep him? or trade him?(assuming he isn't going to resign with us)

Thats easy. WIN!!! Keep him even though he is going to walk. Use him up as best you can then thank him for the memories. Key thing is just Win.

alett12
02-06-2012, 01:46 PM
If the reds do keep Votto they will get the draft pick compensation for him no matter what so as long as they draft correctly then they could bring someone in that could even top Votto

Big Red Hoss
02-06-2012, 01:53 PM
Yes but that #1 is a long shot and too will take years. You don't replace an MVP player to easily.

alett12
02-06-2012, 02:04 PM
Yes but that #1 is a long shot and too will take years. You don't replace an MVP player to easily.

No, but they have been developing guys to play 1B pretty well of late so i'll be interested to see how they do.

Big Red Hoss
02-06-2012, 02:26 PM
No, but they have been developing guys to play 1B pretty well of late so i'll be interested to see how they do.

Thats true but the one they have groomed is now gone and the other iw two years away and unproven to be great right now. The next in line has a great bat but Defense is questionable. Plus there has been a turnover in reds management in the minors. That might have an effect on things too. Time will answer our questions soon enough.

alett12
02-07-2012, 08:32 AM
Thats true but the one they have groomed is now gone and the other iw two years away and unproven to be great right now. The next in line has a great bat but Defense is questionable. Plus there has been a turnover in reds management in the minors. That might have an effect on things too. Time will answer our questions soon enough.

I'm not worried about Soto's defense at 1B. He was a SS when they drafted him so I'm honestly not worried about that.

brad1176
02-07-2012, 11:44 AM
Keep Votto until he becomes a FA, we'll use up his best years, let someone else overpay for his back end. The Reds certainly are the ones that generally overpay for the backend, time to buck the trend.

alett12
02-07-2012, 01:40 PM
Keep Votto until he becomes a FA, we'll use up his best years, let someone else overpay for his back end. The Reds certainly are the ones that generally overpay for the backend, time to buck the trend.

That is true, he'll be 29 when he hits free agency so he'll be near 40 when he gets to the end of a long term deal. I think if they woulcd get a 6 year deal out of him I'd be happy

brad1176
02-08-2012, 10:37 AM
That is true, he'll be 29 when he hits free agency so he'll be near 40 when he gets to the end of a long term deal. I think if they woulcd get a 6 year deal out of him I'd be happy

Yeah, I could live with a six year deal, but that would be the limit, time wise. He would be 35 going on 36, just about the time the big declines typically start. I don't think a six year deal will happen though, someone will give him 8-10 years and not even blink.

Big Red Hoss
02-08-2012, 10:56 AM
I don't think Joey would want less then 8 years.hes not dumb. he wants as much garuntee as possible. IF your the reds and you take that chance of a deal longer then 6 years Don't back load the contract up. Thats what makes him hard to get rid of or swallow the money.

dMaus14
02-08-2012, 11:53 AM
The only way I give him a contract longer than 6 years is if he signs it this year.

Girevik
02-08-2012, 12:19 PM
I would become much more open to trading Votto this next offeason if a deal with Phillips can't be reached. If he's still here in '13 then the Reds' window remains wide open. If he's gone then I think you need to think about trading Votto while you can get value and getting a couple more peices the help backfill for both guys.

alett12
02-08-2012, 01:36 PM
I don't think Joey would want less then 8 years.hes not dumb. he wants as much garuntee as possible. IF your the reds and you take that chance of a deal longer then 6 years Don't back load the contract up. Thats what makes him hard to get rid of or swallow the money.

6 years $120M with 4 club option years worth $25M each

Big Red Hoss
02-08-2012, 01:47 PM
6 years $120M with 4 club option years worth $25M each

Thats an interesting thought. Im not sure any star of Joey's caliber would ever go for it. He wants garunteed money.

alett12
02-08-2012, 01:57 PM
Thats an interesting thought. Im not sure any star of Joey's caliber would ever go for it. He wants garunteed money.

I bet that deal would be hard to beat through

brad1176
02-08-2012, 01:58 PM
That is interesting, he MIGHT go for something like that. He seems to be hesitant to sign any long term deal, the four option years may be to his liking. They would probably have to be mutual options though.

alett12
02-08-2012, 02:01 PM
That is interesting, he MIGHT go for something like that. He seems to be hesitant to sign any long term deal, the four option years may be to his liking. They would probably have to be mutual options though.

that is true, I would also lay incentives for MVP, batting titles, triple crown ect in over the extent of the contract.

swaisuc
02-09-2012, 08:22 AM
Ok, so say Lawrie goes out win ROY this season hits .320 with 15 HRs and 85 RBIs and the Reds make trade with the Jays the offseason after this one flipping Votto for Lawrie and a top pitching prospect, would you be upset witht that? Bringing in one of the best up and coming players who can play at 2B, 3B, or SS possibly and bringing in a potential ace?

Absolutely. When you aren't the Yankees, you either need to be in a winning window or restocking for the next winning window. You can't be neither and you can't be both.

I guess the only way I would consider trading Votto next offseason is if 2012 is a complete flop, Phillips walks, Madson is gone, pitchers get major injuries, and our team looks unlikely to compete in 2013. Right now, that seems like a long shot.

alett12
02-09-2012, 11:25 AM
Absolutely. When you aren't the Yankees, you either need to be in a winning window or restocking for the next winning window. You can't be neither and you can't be both.

I guess the only way I would consider trading Votto next offseason is if 2012 is a complete flop, Phillips walks, Madson is gone, pitchers get major injuries, and our team looks unlikely to compete in 2013. Right now, that seems like a long shot.

true, but i think phillips maybe gone anyway and madson is going to want alot of money if he does well.