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mth123
02-28-2012, 10:25 PM
I heard a question on XM today asking about Pujols/Weaver vs. Kemp/Kershaw and it got me wondering, which combo of ACE and MVP Caliber position player is tops in MLB

1. Weaver/Pujols
2. Kershaw/Kemp
3. Verlander/Cabrera
4. Sabathia/Cano
5. Lester/Gonzalez
6. Greinke/Braun
7. Romero/Bautista
8. Price/Longoria
9. Other

*BaseClogger*
02-28-2012, 10:28 PM
I would have #3 and #6 higher...

mattfeet
02-28-2012, 10:31 PM
I voted Verlander/Cabrera

mth123
02-28-2012, 10:32 PM
I would have #3 and #6 higher...

Actually its a poll not a ranking in the original post, I'm just slow typing. I picked Verlander/Cabrera.

I hope by mid-season Latos/Votto will be an obvious additon, but Latos isn't in that class yet.

mth123
02-28-2012, 11:04 PM
Looking like Verlander/Cabrera early, but with 56 views and only 5 votes, perhaps "who cares" should have been one of the options.

Just trying to get something to discuss that doesn't deal with Fedex and basements. Can't wait for the games.

buckeyenut
02-29-2012, 12:01 AM
How about Latos and votto? They would get my vote, but I am a blatant homer.

REDREAD
02-29-2012, 12:09 AM
Just trying to get something to discuss that doesn't deal with Fedex and basements. Can't wait for the games.

Nice effort to start people talking.. but I guess someone needs to start an argument lol.

Hopefully we will have more to talk about once the exhibition games begin.

dougdirt
02-29-2012, 12:10 AM
I am not sure there is a better pure hitter in baseball than Miguel Cabrera. I wouldn't take a single pitcher in baseball over Justin Verlander. Easy choice.

757690
02-29-2012, 12:21 AM
I choose Kershaw and Kemp because of age. But for one season, I would choose Verlander and Cabrera.

cumberlandreds
02-29-2012, 08:46 AM
I voted Kemp/Kershaw but you could easily persuade me to Verlander/Cabrera. Flip a coin on either choice.

WildcatFan
02-29-2012, 10:45 AM
Surprised I'm the first to vote Weaver/Pujols. Weaver's been under-the-radar devastating the last two years, and Pujols...well...

PuffyPig
02-29-2012, 11:07 AM
Surprised I'm the first to vote Weaver/Pujols. Weaver's been under-the-radar devastating the last two years, and Pujols...well...

Pujols is a pus, which is reason enough to vote against him. Plus he no longer is the best hitter in baseball.

Mario-Rijo
02-29-2012, 11:25 AM
How about Latos and votto? They would get my vote, but I am a blatant homer.

I went other and for these 2, screw it so I'm a homer. I think Latos is an ace already and Votto has as good an argument for being the best hitter as nearly anyone out there.

RedsManRick
02-29-2012, 12:10 PM
Any of the top 3 combos could outperform the the rest of the list. Though I'd take the Verlander/Cabrera combo for both ceiling and track record.

I agree that Latos/Votto belong on this list, though they'd be down the list a bit.

Also, I think Dan Haren is the most under-appreciated starter in baseball. He's been a stud for 6 years running and yet never comes up in these kinds of conversations. I'd take him over Weaver to pair with Pujols.

Tom Servo
02-29-2012, 12:11 PM
I voted Kemp/Kershaw but you could easily persuade me to Verlander/Cabrera. Flip a coin on either choice.
Same here.

The Voice of IH
02-29-2012, 12:37 PM
and Pujols...well...

Is in California! :party::party::party::clap::jump:

RedsManRick
02-29-2012, 12:51 PM
So I took this idea in a slightly different direction, broadening it from slugger to position player and then looking specifically at a projection. So, using the Fangraphs Fan Projections, here are the teams with a pitcher and position player whose projected combined WAR was greater than 10.0.



Rank Team Pitcher fWAR Hitter fWAR Combined WAR
1 Rays Price 4.5 Longoria 8.0 12.5
2 Phillies Halladay 7.0 Utley 5.4 12.4
3-T Dodgers Kershaw 6.2 Kemp 6.1 12.3
3-T Tigers Verlander 5.4 Cabrera 6.9 12.3
5 Angels Haren 5.1 Pujols 6.8 11.9 (11.4 with Wevaer)
6 Reds Latos 4.3 Votto 7.5 11.8
7 Yankees Sabathia 5.5 Cano 6.1 11.6
8 Red Sox Lester 4.2 Pedroia 7.1 11.3 (10.3 with Gonzalez)
9 Giants Lincecum 5.3 Sandoval 5.8 11.1
10-T Nationals Strasburg 5.1 Zimmerman 5.9 11.0
10-T Diamondbacks Hudson 4.4 Upton 6.6 11.0
12-T Brewers Greinke 5.3 Braun 5.6 10.9
12-T Rangers Wilson 4.3 Kinsler 6.6 10.9
14-T Cards Wainwright 4.6 Holliday 5.9 10.5
14-T Marlins Johnson 5.0 Stanton 5.5 10.5
16 Rockies Chacin 2.6 Tulowitski 7.7 10.3
17-T Indians Masterson 4.0 Santana 6.2 10.2
17-T Blue Jays Romero 3.3 Bautista 6.9 10.2

Reds1
02-29-2012, 03:20 PM
I was thinking Cueto/Votto :)

mth123
02-29-2012, 05:14 PM
So I took this idea in a slightly different direction, broadening it from slugger to position player and then looking specifically at a projection. So, using the Fangraphs Fan Projections, here are the teams with a pitcher and position player whose projected combined WAR was greater than 10.0.



Rank Team Pitcher fWAR Hitter fWAR Combined WAR
1 Rays Price 4.5 Longoria 8.0 12.5
2 Phillies Halladay 7.0 Utley 5.4 12.4
3-T Dodgers Kershaw 6.2 Kemp 6.1 12.3
3-T Tigers Verlander 5.4 Cabrera 6.9 12.3
5 Angels Haren 5.1 Pujols 6.8 11.9 (11.4 with Wevaer)
6 Reds Latos 4.3 Votto 7.5 11.8
7 Yankees Sabathia 5.5 Cano 6.1 11.6
8 Red Sox Lester 4.2 Pedroia 7.1 11.3 (10.3 with Gonzalez)
9 Giants Lincecum 5.3 Sandoval 5.8 11.1
10-T Nationals Strasburg 5.1 Zimmerman 5.9 11.0
10-T Diamondbacks Hudson 4.4 Upton 6.6 11.0
12-T Brewers Greinke 5.3 Braun 5.6 10.9
12-T Rangers Wilson 4.3 Kinsler 6.6 10.9
14-T Cards Wainwright 4.6 Holliday 5.9 10.5
14-T Marlins Johnson 5.0 Stanton 5.5 10.5
16 Rockies Chacin 2.6 Tulowitski 7.7 10.3
17-T Indians Masterson 4.0 Santana 6.2 10.2
17-T Blue Jays Romero 3.3 Bautista 6.9 10.2


Wilson isn't on the Rangers anymore. Darvish???

Strikes Out Looking
02-29-2012, 05:43 PM
How about Latos and votto? They would get my vote, but I am a blatant homer.

Mine too!

RedsManRick
02-29-2012, 06:22 PM
Wilson isn't on the Rangers anymore. Darvish???

D'oh, I knew something felt off there. Darvish probalby would have the highest, but he's not listed yet. Let's just assume Darvish can put that up...

dougdirt
02-29-2012, 07:36 PM
So I took this idea in a slightly different direction, broadening it from slugger to position player and then looking specifically at a projection. So, using the Fangraphs Fan Projections, here are the teams with a pitcher and position player whose projected combined WAR was greater than 10.0.



Rank Team Pitcher fWAR Hitter fWAR Combined WAR
1 Rays Price 4.5 Longoria 8.0 12.5
2 Phillies Halladay 7.0 Utley 5.4 12.4
3-T Dodgers Kershaw 6.2 Kemp 6.1 12.3
3-T Tigers Verlander 5.4 Cabrera 6.9 12.3
5 Angels Haren 5.1 Pujols 6.8 11.9 (11.4 with Wevaer)
6 Reds Latos 4.3 Votto 7.5 11.8
7 Yankees Sabathia 5.5 Cano 6.1 11.6
8 Red Sox Lester 4.2 Pedroia 7.1 11.3 (10.3 with Gonzalez)
9 Giants Lincecum 5.3 Sandoval 5.8 11.1
10-T Nationals Strasburg 5.1 Zimmerman 5.9 11.0
10-T Diamondbacks Hudson 4.4 Upton 6.6 11.0
12-T Brewers Greinke 5.3 Braun 5.6 10.9
12-T Rangers Wilson 4.3 Kinsler 6.6 10.9
14-T Cards Wainwright 4.6 Holliday 5.9 10.5
14-T Marlins Johnson 5.0 Stanton 5.5 10.5
16 Rockies Chacin 2.6 Tulowitski 7.7 10.3
17-T Indians Masterson 4.0 Santana 6.2 10.2
17-T Blue Jays Romero 3.3 Bautista 6.9 10.2

If the question were Best Ace/Position player, I would be behind this. But WAR is taking into account defense and positional adjustments. The question was simply best ACE/Slugger combo. I looked at it as the best hitter/pitcher combo.

RedsManRick
02-29-2012, 08:57 PM
If the question were Best Ace/Position player, I would be behind this. But WAR is taking into account defense and positional adjustments. The question was simply best ACE/Slugger combo. I looked at it as the best hitter/pitcher combo.

I know that. Hence my setup explaining that it's not the same thing.

Plus Plus
02-29-2012, 09:54 PM
You can use oWAR and pWAR on Baseball-Reference as a sorting stat, but I am not tech-savvy enough to put that into a post here. If someone can help me, I would be happy to :)

RedsManRick
02-29-2012, 11:40 PM
You can use oWAR and pWAR on Baseball-Reference as a sorting stat, but I am not tech-savvy enough to put that into a post here. If someone can help me, I would be happy to :)

I just manually put it together in notepad, looking it up one at a time (after sorting). Make it look the way you want it to look and use the [ code ] tag to paste it in. No tech-savvyness required.

757690
02-29-2012, 11:52 PM
I just manually put it together in notepad, looking it up one at a time (after sorting). Make it look the way you want it to look and use the [ code ] tag to paste it in. No tech-savvyness required.

You're such an old school traditionalist. ;)

Thanks for work, and I was surprised to see Latos/Votto so high. Very encouraging.

RedlegJake
03-01-2012, 12:22 AM
Latos/Bruce or Cueto/Votto not a choice? hmpf. Dan Szymborski gives Latos the 3rd greatest chance of adding 5 wins & 4th best chance of lowering ERA by .5 run or more and Bruce the 3rd highest chance of adding ten homers this year (and best chance to add 20 rbi). And what's not to like about what Cueto and Votto already accomplished? I vote for one of my home team pair (and love the fact the Reds have two combos to consider!)

dougdirt
03-01-2012, 03:08 AM
Latos/Bruce or Cueto/Votto not a choice? hmpf. Dan Szymborski gives Latos the 3rd greatest chance of adding 5 wins & 4th best chance of lowering ERA by .5 run or more and Bruce the 3rd highest chance of adding ten homers this year (and best chance to add 20 rbi). And what's not to like about what Cueto and Votto already accomplished? I vote for one of my home team pair (and love the fact the Reds have two combos to consider!)

For as much as I like Cueto, I really don't think he is in the same class of pitcher as Mat Latos is.

AtomicDumpling
03-01-2012, 03:30 AM
Strasburg/Harper for the 2013 list.

blumj
03-01-2012, 09:48 AM
This is goofy, but, just for fun, Zips projections, OPS+ added to ERA+. I couldn't find Pujols, it wasn't with the Cards or Angels projections, but, even if it's the same or a little higher than Bautista's 158, everyone's short of Verlander/Cabrera at 299. Weaver + Pujols stand-in Bautista would be 286. Kershaw/Kemp is 278, just a bit higher than Romero/Bautista. Latos/Votto is 267, a little lower than Greinke/Braun, but higher than Price/Longoria, Lester/Gonzalez, and Sabathia/Cano or Teixeira.