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View Full Version : Ludwick over Heisey



jhu1321
03-02-2012, 01:25 PM
So I know it's just the first game of the Spring but Dusty has Ludwick over Heisey in LF and is hitting cleanup. Sign of things to come, or unimportant? I'd be upset if I was Heisey...... :thumbdown:

Magdal
03-02-2012, 02:37 PM
So I know it's just the first game of the Spring but Dusty has Ludwick over Heisey in LF and is hitting cleanup. Sign of things to come, or unimportant? I'd be upset if I was Heisey...... :thumbdown:My bet is that Lud will get the everyday job, at least until he sucks REAL bad.

swaisuc
03-02-2012, 02:48 PM
I realize Heisey's a popular guy here, but I think a lot of people a missing the boat on Ludwick. He could put up some pretty big numbers here.

Old NDN
03-02-2012, 03:02 PM
No big deal. We know what Heisey offers, lets see how Ludwick fits. Come on, it's only spring training and the first game!

CRedsLarkin11
03-02-2012, 03:11 PM
I'm going into this open minded because I do think Ludwick can really produce in Cincinnati and I think Heisey can be a solid every day left fielder. If I know anything about Dusty Baker though, this has already been decided before spring training even begins unless Ludwick really falters.

jhu1321
03-02-2012, 03:11 PM
No big deal. We know what Heisey offers, lets see how Ludwick fits. Come on, it's only spring training and the first game!

Hence the comment in my post "so I know it's just the first game of the Spring". :laugh:

Magdal
03-02-2012, 03:59 PM
No big deal. We know what Heisey offers, lets see how Ludwick fits. Come on, it's only spring training and the first game!I think his returning to a contending team could do wonders if he still has it in him @32. After being a Cardinal, what motivation could a multi millionaire have going to a dog crap team like S.D. in that big park?

I can't tell you how many times he stung 'em after an int. walk to Pujols a couple of years back....I'm very curious to see what he has left. And btw, he is a great outfielder. Not flashy, but very solid. Over the shouder catches he makes look easy....no laid out diving catches for him. He either runs it down or holds up to play it on the bounce. Nothing gets thru him. Can gun a man out too.

If he can bat .270+ for the Reds he WILL deliver 30 HRs and 90+ RBI. And Votto will see plenty of pitches.

jhu1321
03-02-2012, 04:28 PM
I think his returning to a contending team could do wonders if he still has it in him @32. After being a Cardinal, what motivation could a multi millionaire have going to a dog crap team like S.D. in that big park?

I can't tell you how many times he stung 'em after an int. walk to Pujols a couple of years back....I'm very curious to see what he has left. And btw, he is a great outfielder. Not flashy, but very solid. Over the shouder catches he makes look easy....no laid out diving catches for him. He either runs it down or holds up to play it on the bounce. Nothing gets thru him. Can gun a man out too.

If he can bat .270+ for the Reds he WILL deliver 30 HRs and 90+ RBI. And Votto will see plenty of pitches.

If he hits .270 with 30/90 you can punch our ticket to the postseason.

LaFlamaBlanca
03-02-2012, 09:02 PM
I think his returning to a contending team could do wonders if he still has it in him @32. After being a Cardinal, what motivation could a multi millionaire have going to a dog crap team like S.D. in that big park?

I can't tell you how many times he stung 'em after an int. walk to Pujols a couple of years back....I'm very curious to see what he has left. And btw, he is a great outfielder. Not flashy, but very solid. Over the shouder catches he makes look easy....no laid out diving catches for him. He either runs it down or holds up to play it on the bounce. Nothing gets thru him. Can gun a man out too.

If he can bat .270+ for the Reds he WILL deliver 30 HRs and 90+ RBI. And Votto will see plenty of pitches.
.270/30/90? You do realize he's only hit more than 22 HR's once in his career, correct? I like this as a low key, under the radar sleeper signing, but I'd be thrilled with .260/15/70/.700 with solid defense. Don't see him having a Berkmanesque resurgence however.

jhu1321
03-02-2012, 10:57 PM
Agree. Was never as consistent or productive as Berkman anyway.

OGB
03-02-2012, 11:02 PM
Not a fan of this signing, so I'll be rooting very hard for Ryan to prove me wrong.

Magdal
03-03-2012, 01:35 AM
.270/30/90? You do realize he's only hit more than 22 HR's once in his career, correct? I like this as a low key, under the radar sleeper signing, but I'd be thrilled with .260/15/70/.700 with solid defense. Don't see him having a Berkmanesque resurgence however.True, but that was the only year that he got 500 AB's.

Let me tell you a few things about Luddy: he had come into his own in that bustout year. 37 HR and 113 RBI, but on the last day of the season his BA was .299...you know how much it means to a hitter to hit .300. Tony BENCHED him with one AB left...FOR NO GOOD reason.

When asked after the game why he did it, he said that he didn't know he was at .299 What an agregious lie. Everybody in the dugout knows that kind of thing. (especially a stat crazed manager) Knowbody knows what words were spoken after that game, but he was missused from that day on.

The next season TLR started benching him 2 times a week in favor of Chris Duncan and Ankiel. So here he was, the NL Silver Slugger NOT an everyday player. Finally one of the gutless St. Louis media guys brought it up on a pre-game show, and Ryan said "What have I got to do to play every day?"

Wham! I new that his days were numbered in St. Louis. That was tantamount to questioning Caezar.

I think if Dusty plants him in the 4 or 5 hole and LEAVES him there he will put up decent numbers. He strikes out a lot but is one of the hardest players around to double up. (only 8 GIDP in that one full season)

DirtyBaker
03-03-2012, 02:46 AM
helluva post. i like heisey as much as the next guy but I am now curious to see what ludwick does with regular ABs. if he can be the clean up hitter for this team the rest of the lineup would look a lot more practical.

Old NDN
03-03-2012, 11:36 AM
To me, Ludwick is the OF version of the current Rolen, w/out the injuries. I believe their production will be very similar.

Tuff Nut
03-03-2012, 02:08 PM
Not a fan of this signing, so I'll be rooting very hard for Ryan to prove me wrong.
I haven't been a fan of it either. Was hoping for a LH bat, ala Brad Hawpe.

bmwreds31
03-03-2012, 02:51 PM
I think heisey is just one of those guys thats very likable. However in the end he's really over hyped.

This team needs a 4th spot big RH bat. our only choice is to have ludwick fill that role. If that doesnt happen i see us struggling offensively once again.

RedsfaninMT
03-03-2012, 04:01 PM
I think heisey is just one of those guys thats very likable. However in the end he's really over hyped.

This team needs a 4th spot big RH bat. our only choice is to have ludwick fill that role. If that doesnt happen i see us struggling offensively once again.

Again? The Reds problems weren't so much on offense as they were pitching. Sorry to disagree, but though he struck out too much, Heisey's numbers, if you were to calculate them for a full season, would be pretty danged impressive.

bmwreds31
03-03-2012, 04:07 PM
Again? The Reds problems weren't so much on offense as they were pitching. Sorry to disagree, but though he struck out too much, Heisey's numbers, if you were to calculate them for a full season, would be pretty danged impressive.

He's very streaky a lot like bruce. If you only got to see bruces awesome 2 month stretch. You could say He would be an instant hall of famer if given a whole season's worth of AB's.

texasdave
03-03-2012, 05:12 PM
I don't really care who steps up - Heisey or Ludwick - as long as one of them does. Hopefully, both play well in 2012.

Grouse
03-05-2012, 01:17 PM
I think heisey is just one of those guys thats very likable. However in the end he's really over hyped.

This team needs a 4th spot big RH bat. our only choice is to have ludwick fill that role. If that doesnt happen i see us struggling offensively once again.

There is no way to tell if Heisey is over hyped, untill he gets a chance. Wasn't Heisey a AAA mvp or something, Didn't he hit 3 homers in one game last year, and was a leader as a NL pinch hitter. (very hard to do) Plays good D,and has more upside than Ludwick. I don't get it, I think Ludwick is just the new chick at the party, and everyone wants to take a look. IMO Heisey has almost as much upside as Jay Bruce, let him play Dusty. A breakout season from him can set this whole thing free.

krm1580
03-05-2012, 04:08 PM
I would prefer Heisey to Ludwick. My (long winded) case is this.

Back in 2009, I went to a Mudcats game because I wanted to see the Reds 2 top prospects, Alonso and Frazier. I did not really know much about Heisey, but I saw 3 games and came away thinking he was the best player on the field. His swing was tight. He was always in balance and used the whole field. He was very impressive.

There was some belief he was going to be able to make the team out of spring training in 2010, but despite controlling the strikezone well, the hits did not fall, he batted .143 and was sent back to AAA. I saw him play in AAA early that year and he was a completely different hitter. The balance was not as good, the swing seemed longer and he was trying to pull everything. When I saw him this past year, it was the same thing. He seemed to be a complete guess hitter hoping to get something on the inside part of the plate and yank it out.

So what's the point? If you looked at any scouting report on Heisey they all basically called him a 4th outfielder, not enough speed to be a full time CF and not enough power to be a corner OF. My belief that he changed his approach to try and hit for more power to get a full time job because "that is what LFs do". By changing is approach HRs are up but his overall hitting is much worse. I honestly believe if he went back to being a gap to gap guy, he could be a .290 20HR guy who is outstanding on the bases and an exellent LF. I think there a better chance he gets there if you put him out there every day and see what he can do.

Ryan Ludwick strikes me as the 2012 version of Fred Lewis, who was the 2011 version of Willy Taveras, who was the 2009 version of Corey Patterson. The argument in favor of the always goes "if everything breaks right and Dusty uses them correctly they have the ability to be as productive as they were in (enter career year here)".

The problem is that the writing has generally been on the wall for few years that things will not break right, and even if they do, I don't trust Dusty to use them properly.

Red in Atl
03-05-2012, 05:49 PM
I think we should all relax and realize that we need 4 good outfielders in a 162 game season. They will all get plenty of playing time, and Dusty knows how to use the hot bats.

Stubbs needs time off and Heisey will play. Ludwick will need some time off and Heisey will play. Bruce will need time off and Heisey will play.

It takes a full team to win. I think there are plenty of teams who would like to have those four.

Magdal
03-06-2012, 10:31 AM
I think we should all relax and realize that we need 4 good outfielders in a 162 game season. They will all get plenty of playing time, and Dusty knows how to use the hot bats.

Stubbs needs time off and Heisey will play. Ludwick will need some time off and Heisey will play. Bruce will need time off and Heisey will play.

It takes a full team to win. I think there are plenty of teams who would like to have those four.Why do these guys need so much time off? I favor your 3 best every day!

Pony Boy
03-06-2012, 10:48 AM
A question, not an accusation:

Was there ever any suspicion that Ludwig's big season in 2008 was PEDs-fueled? He was a monster that season (.966 OPS with 37 HRs), but never approached those numbers in any season before or since.

Magdal
03-06-2012, 12:12 PM
A question, not an accusation:

Was there ever any suspicion that Ludwig's big season in 2008 was PEDs-fueled? He was a monster that season (.966 OPS with 37 HRs), but never approached those numbers in any season before or since.It's possible, of course, but why would he wait so long to start using? And then just quit? Also, his general body type and placid demeaner lead me to believe he was clean.

You wanna suspect someone, I would think of Matt Holliday.

texasdave
03-06-2012, 12:13 PM
Molina's 2011 numbers are eye-openers.

SidneySlicker
03-06-2012, 12:18 PM
Ludwick will get the starting LF position out of camp by default. imo. Heisey is the only outfielder that can play all three outfield positions and will be used to spell all three. Not saying I agree with this just that I think this is what happens.

jwmann2
03-07-2012, 04:03 AM
I'm going into this open minded because I do think Ludwick can really produce in Cincinnati and I think Heisey can be a solid every day left fielder. If I know anything about Dusty Baker though, this has already been decided before spring training even begins unless Ludwick really falters.

Of course. If Heisey was the everyday starter, we would have kept Fred Lewis as the backup to save money. lol.

mu4103
03-09-2012, 12:05 AM
Dusty is a joke as a manager. I am a huge Heisey fan, I have never heard a manager criticize a player more for success and take credit for it as well. It will be another year of Heisey having to be on pins and needles trying to get playing time. Give Heisey a chance ... if he faulters you have a veteran to back him up. I would like to see Dusty gone by June at the latest ... hopefully he doesn't get the Jonny Gomes treatment or the Reds don't have a shot at the pennant. As it is a good team has to overcome a bad manager.

Magdal
03-09-2012, 12:24 AM
It's a mystery to me how Baker keeps his job. Seems like the Reds fans would be raising hell to get him gone.

AintlifeGrande
03-09-2012, 12:26 AM
Ludwick will bat clean up like he did with St Louis.

Magdal
03-09-2012, 09:46 AM
Ludwick will bat clean up like he did with St Louis.Ludwick batted 4th often, but was moved to other spots per LaRussa's mindless whims. He became a true cleanup hitter in S.D., but by then he had become a .260 hitter.

Magdal
03-26-2012, 10:12 AM
While checking the stats I saw that Luddy is not hitting his weight, and striking out a lot. I was hoping he would make a comeback.... BTW, what's wrong with Votto?

swaisuc
03-26-2012, 10:30 AM
It's a mystery to me how Baker keeps his job. Seems like the Reds fans would be raising hell to get him gone.

It makes no sense to make a change right now. This is his shot to win with this group before they have to overhaul some things. If he doesn't win this year, make the manager change along with the transition from Phillips and possibly others.

I think it's pretty clear that 2012 is Baker's make or break year here, and I'm fine with that.

swaisuc
03-26-2012, 10:34 AM
While checking the stats I saw that Luddy is not hitting his weight, and striking out a lot. I was hoping he would make a comeback.... BTW, what's wrong with Votto?

I remember when he came up, Votto had a rep (I guess from the minors) of being a slow starter and I think he even admitted it took him a while to get locked in. I haven't really noticed it though as he's been pretty awesome in every month while in Cincy.

Magdal
03-26-2012, 07:40 PM
It makes no sense to make a change right now. This is his shot to win with this group before they have to overhaul some things. If he doesn't win this year, make the manager change along with the transition from Phillips and possibly others.

I think it's pretty clear that 2012 is Baker's make or break year here, and I'm fine with that.

Transition from BP??? I thought he was a big fan favorite in Cincy. What do you mean?

R_Webb18
03-26-2012, 08:23 PM
votto is fine

Krawhitham
03-26-2012, 08:45 PM
While checking the stats I saw that Luddy is not hitting his weight, and striking out a lot. I was hoping he would make a comeback.... BTW, what's wrong with Votto?

Votto is looking at as many pitches as he can and striking out looking a lot while doing it. This is by choice, he says with about a week left he will start swinging more and start treating at bats like he does in the regular season

He claims that looking at all these pitches will help down the road and it also helps him get his timing down

Magdal
03-27-2012, 10:25 AM
Votto is looking at as many pitches as he can and striking out looking a lot while doing it. This is by choice, he says with about a week left he will start swinging more and start treating at bats like he does in the regular season

He claims that looking at all these pitches will help down the road and it also helps him get his timing downAnd you buy that bull? There is something wrong here.

kfm
03-28-2012, 01:28 PM
Transition from BP??? I thought he was a big fan favorite in Cincy. What do you mean?

Brandon is a fan favorite and a great player. Unfortunately, this is the curse of a small market team. You have to pick and choose who you can afford and who you can afford to lose. Unless something dramatic happens at the gate or with a tv contract, the Reds can't afford Phillips and Votto and may end up with neither.

Hillsdale87
03-28-2012, 01:33 PM
And you buy that bull? There is something wrong here.

Votto's 5 for his last 9. He's fine... He had a lousy ST last year too

brm7675
03-28-2012, 01:38 PM
While checking the stats I saw that Luddy is not hitting his weight, and striking out a lot. I was hoping he would make a comeback.... BTW, what's wrong with Votto?

Nothing is wrong with Votto..why do you ask?

brm7675
03-28-2012, 01:39 PM
And you buy that bull? There is something wrong here.

According to whom?

Jamz
03-28-2012, 01:39 PM
And you buy that bull? There is something wrong here.

Wishful thinking my friend. Votto does this every year. He likes getting as many looks as he can at pitches without having to time at the same time. He's basically isolating the different aspects of his batting, improving them, and then bringing them all together.

There's a reason he's arguably the best batter in the NL.

kfm
03-28-2012, 01:40 PM
And you buy that bull? There is something wrong here.

Dude you seem like a smart fan. Please tell me you are not one of those people who put a lot of credence in spring training numbers. I would love to see redzone put together the all spring training team some time. Just off the top of my head I can think of some kid named Mark Howie who was supposed to be the next Ted Williams, and then there were spring training stars like Adam Hyzdu, Jimmy Anderson, Osvaldo Hernandez, Josias Manzanillo. And I also remember the anger over guys who had poor spring trainings like Miguel Cairo and Nick Masset making the team. If Votto is still struggling a month in, be concerned but until then sitback relax and look forward to the real opening day.

Magdal
03-28-2012, 01:47 PM
Wishful thinking my friend. Votto does this every year. He likes getting as many looks as he can at pitches without having to time at the same time. He's basically isolating the different aspects of his batting, improving them, and then bringing them all together.

There's a reason he's arguably the best batter in the NL.Wishful thinking? Hardly. I'd like to see the guy win the Triple Crown. When I checked his BA was .095....when an exellent hitter is batting THAT low in ST I tend to think something is wrong.

They tell me he doesn't try to hit in the Spring. Well, I did not know that, and never heard of it either. So now I Know.

brm7675
03-28-2012, 02:02 PM
Wishful thinking? Hardly. I'd like to see the guy win the Triple Crown. When I checked his BA was .095....when an exellent hitter is batting THAT low in ST I tend to think something is wrong.

They tell me he doesn't try to hit in the Spring. Well, I did not know that, and never heard of it either. So now I Know.

Never ever worry about how a player does in ST...in means nothing...

Magdal
03-29-2012, 09:00 AM
Never ever worry about how a player does in ST...in means nothing...Every single time a player steps to the plate, even if his Granny is pitching at the family picnic, he is trying to get a hit. That's what they do. So ST IS a barometer for the regular season.

You can downplay wins in ST, sure. Better players are lifted for scrubs and pitchers are trying new stuff, but hitters ALWAYS try to hit. If what is said about Votto is true, he is a very unusual ballplayer!

swaisuc
03-29-2012, 10:15 AM
Transition from BP??? I thought he was a big fan favorite in Cincy. What do you mean?

I mean this is likely the last year we have both Votto/Phillips along with Latos, Cueto, Bruce, and the rest of the young core that is locked up. It's a similar team to the last 2 years that Baker managed. It makes logical sense to let him manage this year's team.

If that team doesn't win for the 2nd straight year for any reason, I don't think there is any question Baker will be gone. They don't have the dollars to throw at BP and Votto (definitely not both at least) long term, so they will have to focus on the next 3-4 years with Latos, Cueto, Bruce, etc. It may be time at that point to start looking at young guys taking over at 3B, Mes starting at C, and more. It makes sense to start down that path with a new manager.

Of course, the better option is Baker wins big this year, we keep the roster mostly in tact for 2013 and our "window" lasts another 4-5 years with this group.

Magdal
03-31-2012, 09:23 AM
You guys are gonna call me crazy, but I really believe that if Baker gets fired mid-season, your next manager will be LaRussa. I've thought this ever since Jockety signed on.

He will be free after the ASG and itching to get back into the everyday ups and downs of baseball.

Magdal
03-31-2012, 11:42 AM
Ludwick will bat clean up like he did with St Louis.You bet he will! He has turned it around batting about .400 in the last 10 days while Hiesey flounders in Mendozaville.

A trio of Bruce, Votto and Luddy all hitting well would be huge for the Reds.

rick vaughn
04-01-2012, 11:13 PM
Ludwick will bat clean up like he did with St Louis.

Ludwick didn't actually hit 4th that much in St Louis.

2007: 15 games out of 110 (he actually hit 9th most, because LaRussa was batting the pitcher 8th. 27 games hitting 9th, 25 hitting 6th, 17 hitting 5th, 15 each hitting 4th and 8th)
2008: 69 in 152 games
2009: 62 in 146 games (he was pretty much the regular, until they traded for Matt Holliday)

Unfortunately, for 2010, I can't find anything that splits out his time between St. Louis and San Diego, and looks at where he hit for both.

Overall, in 2010, he hit 4th 40 times in 136 games. Without knowing for sure, I would guess most of these came after his trade, since Holliday was hitting 4th for the Cardinals.

Looking solely at his three full seasons in St. Louis, he hit 4th 146 times out of 401 games, or 36.4%. If you add in the full 2010 season, while it's admittedly a bit inaccurate, it'd be 186 games out of 537, or 34.6%

He got a fair amount of time there, but he was hardly "written in pen." Remember, during his first season, the Cardinals still had Rolen and Edmonds. In his second year, Troy Glaus was expected to be the regular 4th place hitter, until Ludwick tore it up in the first part of the season, to take the spot. Midway through his third year, and for his fourth year, Holliday was there.

joshua
04-02-2012, 03:00 AM
You guys are gonna call me crazy, but I really believe that if Baker gets fired mid-season, your next manager will be LaRussa. I've thought this ever since Jockety signed on.

He will be free after the ASG and itching to get back into the everyday ups and downs of baseball.

I've felt this as well. And wouldn't be surprised.

jwmann2
04-02-2012, 11:44 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Heisey in Center Field for starters and Ludwick in left. What do we get out of Stubbs? 20 stolen bases and 200+ strikeouts?

smixsell
04-03-2012, 08:16 PM
You guys are gonna call me crazy, but I really believe that if Baker gets fired mid-season, your next manager will be LaRussa. I've thought this ever since Jockety signed on.

He will be free after the ASG and itching to get back into the everyday ups and downs of baseball.

Although not probable, I can see it happening. I would do cartwheels if it did happen (I'm going to be doing the dance of joy when Uncle Rusty's days as reds manager are over anyway, I may as well do cartwheels as well) :)

joshua
04-04-2012, 04:33 AM
Dude you seem like a smart fan. Please tell me you are not one of those people who put a lot of credence in spring training numbers. I would love to see redzone put together the all spring training team some time. Just off the top of my head I can think of some kid named Mark Howie who was supposed to be the next Ted Williams, and then there were spring training stars like Adam Hyzdu, Jimmy Anderson, Osvaldo Hernandez, Josias Manzanillo. And I also remember the anger over guys who had poor spring trainings like Miguel Cairo and Nick Masset making the team. If Votto is still struggling a month in, be concerned but until then sitback relax and look forward to the real opening day.

Sappelt crushed in spring last year. .564/.571/.974

Magdal
04-04-2012, 08:09 AM
Although not probable, I can see it happening. I would do cartwheels if it did happen (I'm going to be doing the dance of joy when Uncle Rusty's days as reds manager are over anyway, I may as well do cartwheels as well) :)Of course you would also inherit Dave Duncan and Mark McGwire as coaches.:)

swaisuc
04-04-2012, 09:07 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing Heisey in Center Field for starters and Ludwick in left. What do we get out of Stubbs? 20 stolen bases and 200+ strikeouts?

More like 40 steals and likely better defense.

I do think what you're suggesting will happen sometimes though. It's nice to have options. I think they'll be more flexible with the lineup this year based on who is hitting. Heisey and Ludwick will both get enough ABs to prove they belong in every day. If they both hit enough, you'll see more Heisey in CF. Otherwise, just play the hot hand in left IMO.

LeDoux
04-05-2012, 07:46 PM
NM