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WebScorpion
05-07-2012, 12:53 AM
He has a chance to continue that trend if he continues to pitch the vast majority of his games in a whale's vagina.
LOUD NOISES!!! ;)

Blitz Dorsey
05-10-2012, 08:12 PM
Wow, Ronald Torreyes is having a horrible season in high-A for the Daytona Cubs. Get this: He's 1 for his last 31 and is batting .187 on the year (.523 OPS):

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=591720

dougdirt
05-10-2012, 11:11 PM
Wow, Ronald Torreyes is having a horrible season in high-A for the Daytona Cubs. Get this: He's 1 for his last 31 and is batting .187 on the year (.523 OPS):

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=591720
He is 1-31 with no strikeouts in that period of time. You couldn't replicate that if you tried to. It is downright crazy to be honest.

RedsManRick
05-11-2012, 01:15 AM
He is 1-31 with no strikeouts in that period of time. You couldn't replicate that if you tried to. It is downright crazy to be honest.

You could bunt 31 times with the defense knowing it and you'd get on base more than once. That's nuts. If he keeps the strikeouts down, his AVG will regress soon enough.

powersackers
05-12-2012, 02:12 AM
Yonder cracks his first homer. Average up to .300 with 10 RBI and a lot of doubles.

Orenda
05-12-2012, 07:52 AM
Matt Maloney went bust but Burton has pitched well for the Twins.

CTA513
05-12-2012, 08:39 AM
Matt Maloney went bust but Burton has pitched well for the Twins.

Just checked Burtons game logs and in his 1st 3 games: 1 2/3rd Innings, 3 Hits, 3 Runs, 0 BB, 1 K

Since then: 11 1/3rd Innings, 0 Hits, 0 Runs, 2 BB, 12 K

Scrap Irony
05-12-2012, 09:51 AM
Now would be a great time to trade for Torreyes.

I still love the kid.

lollipopcurve
05-12-2012, 10:33 AM
Just checked Burtons game logs and in his 1st 3 games: 1 2/3rd Innings, 3 Hits, 3 Runs, 0 BB, 1 K

Since then: 11 1/3rd Innings, 0 Hits, 0 Runs, 2 BB, 12 K

Tom Servo
05-15-2012, 01:17 PM
Yonder's heated up, batting .300 now and added an RBI single in today's game. Still no power to speak of though.

*BaseClogger*
05-15-2012, 01:37 PM
Yonder's heated up, batting .300 now and added an RBI single in today's game. Still no power to speak of though.

He has 12 doubles. I wouldn't call that "no power to speak of"...

Benihana
05-15-2012, 01:39 PM
Now would be a great time to trade for Torreyes.

I still love the kid.

Wait another year and we might be able to pick him up for free.

Cooper
05-16-2012, 09:37 AM
Yonder's in san diego. That p.lace is brutal and saps the power. For a rookie in that park...he's doing very well.

REDblooded
05-21-2012, 11:31 PM
Yonder is 1 multi-double game away from tying the club record set by Gwynn and A Gonzalez... Not shabby...

klw
05-22-2012, 08:38 AM
Torreyes average is down to .158 even though he has only 8 k's in 120 ab's. His BABIP must be at record low levels. OPS of .441.

dougdirt
05-22-2012, 09:07 AM
Torreyes average is down to .158 even though he has only 8 k's in 120 ab's. His BABIP must be at record low levels. OPS of .441.

It is currently sitting at .170 on the season.

Blitz Dorsey
05-22-2012, 11:01 AM
Brad Boxberger has been average-at-best at Triple-A Tuscon this season: 14 IP, 13 H, 11 BB, 17 K, 4.50 ERA, 0-2, 3 saves.

His teammate, Yasmani Grandal, is doing well though: .317 (.942 OPS), 3 HR, 17 RBIs in 82 ABs.

Patrick Bateman
05-22-2012, 12:07 PM
It is currently sitting at .170 on the season.

You have to think it's not all luck at his level.... I would think he must not be hitting the ball with a great deal of authority.

dougdirt
05-22-2012, 12:09 PM
You have to think it's not all luck at his level.... I would think he must not be hitting the ball with a great deal of authority.

His line drive rate is down significantly this season. But even still, his BABIP is .170. He is not super fast, but he is a slightly above average runner. The Florida State League does funny things to guys. A whole lot of superstars have gone through that league and not hit much.

MWM
05-22-2012, 12:22 PM
Grandal was the only part of the deal I hated. I didn't mind part with Alonso and I like Boxberger, but he's a much more replaceable part. I liked Grandal quite a bit over Mesoraco based on his pitch recognition skills.

_Sir_Charles_
05-22-2012, 12:24 PM
The switch hitter part was kinda nice too.

Kc61
05-23-2012, 10:51 AM
I completely agree on Grandal. He was the pivotal guy in the trade. Let's just hope that Mes overshadows Grandal and it becomes clear that the Reds made the right choice.

RichRed
05-23-2012, 01:02 PM
Volquez was getting visibly frustrated with his catcher, Baker, last night. To be fair, his teammates were probably frustrated with his inability to throw strikes.

757690
05-23-2012, 01:15 PM
Wood pitched well last night in a loss. 5.2 IP, 2H 2R

Blitz Dorsey
05-23-2012, 03:34 PM
I completely agree on Grandal. He was the pivotal guy in the trade. Let's just hope that Mes overshadows Grandal and it becomes clear that the Reds made the right choice.

I disagree. I think Yonder was the pivotal piece. I think he'll end up having a better MLB career than Grandal. Also, Doug has pointed out that Grandal's defense is not quite what it was billed to be entering the draft. Mesoraco is a better prospect for sure IMO. Mes would be tearing up Triple-A right now if he were down there IMO.

To be clear, Grandal was a huge piece of the Latos trade. Don't get me wrong. However, I think the Padres ranked them, in order of importance: 1. Alonso, 2. Grandal, 3. Boxberger/Volquez (tied, distant third).

Blitz Dorsey
05-23-2012, 03:37 PM
Dave Sappelt is really slummin' at Triple-A Iowa: .222 (.612 OPS), 3 HR, 16 RBIs, 3 steals in 158 ABs.

Looks like the Reds sold high on him for sure.

Vottomatic
05-23-2012, 04:00 PM
Former Reds - 5-23-12:

Torreyes - 123 ab's, 19 hits, 3 doubles, 2 triples, 0 HR, .154 average, .225 OBP, 9 walks, 8 K's, 4 SB's.........yikes.

Grandal - 86 ab's, 7 doubles, 3 HR's, .326 average, .438 OBP, .950 OPS

Boxberger - 0-2, 4.20 e.r.a., 15 IP

Sappelt - .222 average, .276 OBP, 158 at-bats

Wood - 3-3, 7 games, 4.57 e.r.a. (minors)

Alonso - 146 ab's, 1 HR, .301 average, .383 OBP, .801 OPS (Padres)

Volquez - 2-4, 3.49 e.r.a., 59 IP, 50 K, 31 BB

Kc61
05-23-2012, 04:00 PM
I disagree. I think Yonder was the pivotal piece. I think he'll end up having a better MLB career than Grandal. Also, Doug has pointed out that Grandal's defense is not quite what it was billed to be entering the draft. Mesoraco is a better prospect for sure IMO. Mes would be tearing up Triple-A right now if he were down there IMO.

To be clear, Grandal was a huge piece of the Latos trade. Don't get me wrong. However, I think the Padres ranked them, in order of importance: 1. Alonso, 2. Grandal, 3. Boxberger/Volquez (tied, distant third).


Yeah, we do disagree. Because even if you are correct, that Alonso is the better prospect/player, he had to go. He was blocked by Votto, couldn't play the outfield, had no role in Cincy's future. Trading him last winter was a no-brainer.

Grandal, a different story. He plays a premium position. His upside is yet unclear, he hasn't played that much minor league ball. The Reds took a good gamble in choosing Mes at this stage, but there is a risk. Grandal, a switch hitting catcher, could turn out to be the more valuable player in the long run.

Good switch hitting catchers don't grow on trees and Grandal could some day be a very, very valuable player. If the Reds had the chance, it would have been good to hold him for awhile, and watch Grandal and Mes develop for another year or two. Then make your decision.

Easy call to trade Alonso last off-season IMO.

Tough call to trade Grandal IMO.

(As an aside, I do have questions about Alonso as a prospect, but that's really beside the point. Even assuming he continues to be a high caliber lefty hitter, I still think Grandal was the toughest piece to trade.)

Sea Ray
05-23-2012, 04:05 PM
Volquez was getting visibly frustrated with his catcher, Baker, last night. To be fair, his teammates were probably frustrated with his inability to throw strikes.

I saw that live. That's little league stuff and shows you that Volquez' biggest challenges are between the ears

Sea Ray
05-23-2012, 04:08 PM
I disagree. I think Yonder was the pivotal piece. I think he'll end up having a better MLB career than Grandal. Also, Doug has pointed out that Grandal's defense is not quite what it was billed to be entering the draft. Mesoraco is a better prospect for sure IMO. Mes would be tearing up Triple-A right now if he were down there IMO.

To be clear, Grandal was a huge piece of the Latos trade. Don't get me wrong. However, I think the Padres ranked them, in order of importance: 1. Alonso, 2. Grandal, 3. Boxberger/Volquez (tied, distant third).

I agree and that's why when someone says (like Marty Brennaman did today on WLW) that Latos may eventually salvage the Josh Hamilton trade, I disagree with them

reds44
05-23-2012, 04:15 PM
Volquez has a 3.49 ERA this year, but he's still walking the same amount while striking out less yet he's giving up less hits and HRs (and runs obviously). PETCO must be nice.

RichRed
05-23-2012, 04:44 PM
I saw that live. That's little league stuff and shows you that Volquez' biggest challenges are between the ears

Yep. For those who didn't see it, Volquez angrily waved for the catcher to come to the mound, turning his back as he did so. Then, he appeared to be giving Baker the silent treatment in the dugout afterwards.

I'm one of those who was a little uneasy with Alonso being included in the Latos trade, despite the fact that he was blocked in Cincy, because I think the guy's just going to be a hitting machine. And I'm not convinced he couldn't learn to play a passable LF.

Kc61
05-23-2012, 04:50 PM
Yep. For those who didn't see it, Volquez angrily waved for the catcher to come to the mound, turning his back as he did so. Then, he appeared to be giving Baker the silent treatment in the dugout afterwards.

I'm one of those who was a little uneasy with Alonso being included in the Latos trade, despite the fact that he was blocked in Cincy, because I think the guy's just going to be a hitting machine. And I'm not convinced he couldn't learn to play a passable LF.

Trading Alonso in a deal for Latos was easy in my book.

Alonso is a very good hitter, but IMO he will not be an elite hitting first baseman. First base is a tough crowd. I don't see Yonder being in the top tier.

The reasons? First reason is 24, 30, 36, 40 and 31.

Those are the HR numbers Adrian Gonzalez put up playing in SD.

I'd be amazed if Yonder ever put up those kind of homer numbers in SD or elsewhere for that matter. Yet, that's what he will need to do to be an elite first baseman. Hal Morris was a very good hitter too, but without big time power a first baseman isn't top tier.

I have other questions about Yonder as well - I'd take Latos any day of the week over a first baseman of Yonder's type.

Will Alonso be good? Sure. Don't disagree with that.

dougdirt
05-23-2012, 06:05 PM
Dave Sappelt is really slummin' at Triple-A Iowa: .222 (.612 OPS), 3 HR, 16 RBIs, 3 steals in 158 ABs.

Looks like the Reds sold high on him for sure.

Bad BABIP luck early in the season will do that to you. His line drive rate is higher than it was last season, walk rate is the same, strikeout rate is the same. His BABIP is sitting at .240. Normalize that to where he has always been in the minors and while he isn't hitting lights out, you are talking about a .310/.360/.425 line.... essentially just showing that his power hasn't been there just yet. Assuming he continues to walk, strikeout and hit line drives at the same rate he is now, he will be just fine.

Vottomatic
05-23-2012, 07:00 PM
At the time of the trade, I loved unloading Volquez, I had no problem trading Alonso since he was blocked...........but I worried about trading Grandal, and for some reason hated tossing in Boxberger.

Every time I see Volquez's stats this year, I wonder if he's turned a corner or if it's PETCO. I think it's both.

Alonso has 1 HR in his first 150+ at-bats. Keith Hernandez-type is more than likely. I don't miss him. Rather have Votto. Alonso was not the LF answer.

Boxberger hasn't really blossomed like I thought he would. But he might.

Really, Grandal is the only one making the trade look regrettable. But I don't regret it.

reds44
05-24-2012, 12:58 AM
Bad BABIP luck early in the season will do that to you. His line drive rate is higher than it was last season, walk rate is the same, strikeout rate is the same. His BABIP is sitting at .240. Normalize that to where he has always been in the minors and while he isn't hitting lights out, you are talking about a .310/.360/.425 line.... essentially just showing that his power hasn't been there just yet. Assuming he continues to walk, strikeout and hit line drives at the same rate he is now, he will be just fine.
You're going down with that sinking ship, aren't you?

REDREAD
05-24-2012, 01:05 AM
Bad BABIP luck early in the season will do that to you. His line drive rate is higher than it was last season, walk rate is the same, strikeout rate is the same. His BABIP is sitting at .240. Normalize that to where he has always been in the minors and while he isn't hitting lights out, you are talking about a .310/.360/.425 line.... essentially just showing that his power hasn't been there just yet. Assuming he continues to walk, strikeout and hit line drives at the same rate he is now, he will be just fine.

Man, I really admire you for your persistence ... :)
Not saying you are wrong, Sappelt may do better than he's doing now. Just admire how you defend your positions.

Patrick Bateman
05-24-2012, 09:51 AM
You're going down with that sinking ship, aren't you?

Ya, some guys just can't hit harder pitching as they move up the chain... line drive rates can be deceiving in some cases. Sappelt is a guy who is going to need to hit .280+ to be a reasonable overall player because he mostly lacks power and patience at the plate. When the balls don't fall in he has little redeeming value. Doug is right to a point, this guy has shown enough ability to hit to know that he isnt going to keep OPSing .500, but, I do think stuff like this goes to show that Sappelt has no business being considered a potential major league starter... I mean, what would his stats look like if he was having this bad a spell in the major leagues? IMO, he's no better than a potential major league reserve outfielder, which is where I think most of Redszone pegged him before the trade, including me.

dougdirt
05-24-2012, 10:22 AM
You're going down with that sinking ship, aren't you?

Coming into the season he had an .840 OPS in AAA for his career. Right now, his power is down slightly, walks and strikeouts are the same as they have historically been and his BABIP is very low. Why would you think that all of a sudden he turned himself into Miguel Rojas when he has never been Miguel Rojas and everything points directly at his BABIP being out of whack and that being the reason his numbers are poor? It is kind of the Sean Marshall thing, where his BABIP is .500. Of course that isn't going to continue.

edabbs44
05-24-2012, 06:19 PM
Doug, what is the Babip that you are "normalizing" him to?

VottoFan54
05-29-2012, 06:23 PM
Yonder Alonso - .292/.371/.404/.775 with 1 HR and 33 K. 194 PA.
Yasmani Grandal (AAA) - .324/.430/.495/.925 with 3 HR and 24 K. 135 PA.
Edinson Volquez - 3.46 ERA, 1.35 WHIP, 34 BB, 55 K, 65 IP in 11 starts.
Brad Boxberger (AAA) - 3.32 ERA, 1.42 WHIP, 13 BB, 27 K, 3 Saves, 19 IP in 18 games.
Dave Sappelt (AAA) - .225/.284/.330/.614 with 3 HR and 25 K. 197 PA.
Travis Wood - 5.94 ERA, 1.20 WHIP, 8 BB, 11 K, 16.2 IP in 3 starts.
Travis Wood (AAA) - 4.57 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, 11 BB, 29 K, 41.1 IP in 7 starts.
Ronald Torreyes - .176/.248/.235/.484 with 0 HR and 8 K. 155 PA.

No one on this list is really excelling. The only piece that we might really regret trading is Grandal. He is hitting really well in AAA. You could argue that we should've held onto Volquez, but pitching in Petco is a lot different than pitching in GABP. Alonso is doing pretty well. Outside of those top three everyone else seems to be struggling.

Tom Servo
05-29-2012, 06:56 PM
Alonso's doing exactly what I expected - hitting. I miss him for that reason, but it just wasn't gonna work in Cincinnati.

dougdirt
05-29-2012, 11:39 PM
I went back and watched Sappelt some this season. Don't like what he has done with his swing, or pre-swing. Before he broke out, he had a lot of bat movement before he would begin his swing and to me it seemed it was keeping him from getting his balance just right and sapping him of some power. He has some more movement than he had last year again and I wonder if again he is just missing his balance point in his swing, causing him a lack of some power.

Dan
05-30-2012, 04:38 AM
Yonder Alonso - .292/.371/.404/.775 with 1 HR and 33 K. 194 PA.
Yasmani Grandal (AAA) - .324/.430/.495/.925 with 3 HR and 24 K. 135 PA.
Edinson Volquez - 3.46 ERA, 1.35 WHIP, 34 BB, 55 K, 65 IP in 11 starts.
Brad Boxberger (AAA) - 3.32 ERA, 1.42 WHIP, 13 BB, 27 K, 3 Saves, 19 IP in 18 games.
Dave Sappelt (AAA) - .225/.284/.330/.614 with 3 HR and 25 K. 197 PA.
Travis Wood - 5.94 ERA, 1.20 WHIP, 8 BB, 11 K, 16.2 IP in 3 starts.
Travis Wood (AAA) - 4.57 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, 11 BB, 29 K, 41.1 IP in 7 starts.
Ronald Torreyes - .176/.248/.235/.484 with 0 HR and 8 K. 155 PA.

No one on this list is really excelling. The only piece that we might really regret trading is Grandal. He is hitting really well in AAA. You could argue that we should've held onto Volquez, but pitching in Petco is a lot different than pitching in GABP. Alonso is doing pretty well. Outside of those top three everyone else seems to be struggling.

Could you please post the bb numbers for the batters as well? As you know, 33k with 5bb is very different than 33k with 35bb. Thanks.

camisadelgolf
05-30-2012, 05:44 AM
Hey, Dan. I found a good resource for baseball statistics in case you're interested. Here you go: http://www.baseball-reference.com/

*BaseClogger*
05-30-2012, 06:10 AM
:laugh:

cinreds21
06-01-2012, 01:37 AM
Catcher Yasmani Grandal is being called up by the San Diego Padres. The switch hitting catcher his hitting .317 with 4 home runs and 23 rbi's in 34 games for Triple-A Tucson.

mdccclxix
06-01-2012, 07:12 AM
Catcher Yasmani Grandal is being called up by the San Diego Padres. The switch hitting catcher his hitting .317 with 4 home runs and 23 rbi's in 34 games for Triple-A Tucson.

Wow, fast moving. I'd say it's probably a little too fast, but he seemed to have a good head on his shoulders so we'll see.

paulrichjr
06-07-2012, 12:36 AM
Just noticed on MLB network....

AL Home Run Leaders
1. Josh Hamilton
2. Adam Dunn
3. Edwin Encarnacion

camisadelgolf
06-07-2012, 12:42 AM
Just noticed on MLB network....

AL Home Run Leaders
1. Josh Hamilton
2. Adam Dunn
3. Edwin Encarnacion
All of whom were vital cogs in the Mat Latos deal. ;)

camisadelgolf
06-07-2012, 12:43 AM
Grandal was sent down. He was hitless in his lone plate appearance and played an inning and a third behind the dish.

757690
06-07-2012, 12:45 AM
Grandal was sent down. He was hitless in his lone plate appearance and played an inning and a third behind the dish.

Yeah!!! Reds won the trade!

camisadelgolf
06-07-2012, 12:49 AM
Aside from giving up six bombs already, Wood has pitched passably in Wrigley. Sappelt and Torreyes are still OPSing under .600. Boxberger is still missing bats in AAA (and the plate, too). Edinson Volquez leads the NL in starts and walks, but his overall stats are fairly good despite the Padres being 4-8 when he pitches. Yonder Alonso has been one of the Pads' better hitters this year, but that's about as faint of praise as it gets. However, his 102 OPS+ is third among the team's starting eight. He's also fifth in the league in doubles.

PuffyPig
06-07-2012, 07:05 AM
Volquez K-rate is down by 1 this year, he still walks a ton, and has averaged slightly less than 6 innings per start, with a 4.33 xFIP. He is being saved by a .271 BABIP and HR/FB rate half his lifetime average.

paulrichjr
06-07-2012, 01:47 PM
All of whom were vital cogs in the Mat Latos deal. ;)

As were Wood and Sappelt? This thread was the only one open that dealt with trades and how ex-Reds were doing. I thought seeing 3 Ex-Reds at the top of the AL home run board was kind of amazing. I guess the honest question is do you open a new thread for just a short comment like that or do you put it in a thread that has talked about lots of former Reds players including Encarnacion in earlier posts?

camisadelgolf
06-07-2012, 03:59 PM
As were Wood and Sappelt? This thread was the only one open that dealt with trades and how ex-Reds were doing. I thought seeing 3 Ex-Reds at the top of the AL home run board was kind of amazing. I guess the honest question is do you open a new thread for just a short comment like that or do you put it in a thread that has talked about lots of former Reds players including Encarnacion in earlier posts?
At least Wood and Sappelt are in the subject title. For the record, it doesn't bother me at all that you're posting itt about ex-Reds. I just thought this thread was intended for discussion of players who were dealt this off-season.

RedlegJake
06-07-2012, 04:03 PM
I don't mind at all tracking ANY ex-Reds in this thread. All past trades are graded years down the road in some cases. And I always like Edwin - as maddening as he could be - it's nice to see him succeeding finally.

cinreds21
06-09-2012, 09:23 PM
Box got called up by the Padres.

757690
06-12-2012, 12:16 AM
Box pitched a scoreless inning last night for the Padres 0 H 1 K, 1 BB. Congrats :beerme:

gilpdawg
06-14-2012, 12:59 AM
Alonso accounted for the only run in a 1-0 win tonight with a solo jack.

Captain Hook
06-14-2012, 01:46 AM
I don't mind at all tracking ANY ex-Reds in this thread. All past trades are graded years down the road in some cases. And I always like Edwin - as maddening as he could be - it's nice to see him succeeding finally.

I'm really glad this thread survived the early criticism.People are amazed that I know how these guys are doing along with the level and team they're playing for.Thanks to all that has contributed.

Vottomatic
06-14-2012, 03:58 PM
I'm really glad this thread survived the early criticism.People are amazed that I know how these guys are doing along with the level and team they're playing for.Thanks to all that has contributed.

Thanks.

AmarilloRed
06-15-2012, 10:41 PM
Boxberger is the one I still wish we could have kept out of that trade-hope he does well in SD.

Blitz Dorsey
06-16-2012, 01:58 AM
I gotta tell you I'm absolutely shocked about Edwin Encarnacion. I always thought the guy was a bum when he played for the Reds and was thrilled when he was traded. I'm eating some serious crow on that one. Although, I have no question he won't even come close to keeping up this pace.

mth123
06-16-2012, 02:53 AM
Don't look now, but Adam Dunn leads the majors in Home Runs. His next Home Run will be career Home Run number 389 which will tie him with Red's career HR leader Johnny Bench for 56th on the all time list.

*BaseClogger*
06-16-2012, 02:58 AM
Don't look now, but Adam Dunn leads the majors in Home Runs. His next Home Run will be career Home Run number 389 which will tie him with Red's career HR leader Johnny Bench for 56th on the all time list.

It looks like his 2011 will go down as one of the great mysteries in the history of the sport haha...

mth123
06-16-2012, 03:08 AM
It looks like his 2011 will go down as one of the great mysteries in the history of the sport haha...

I think he had some nagging injuries and he definitely looked out of shape to me. Throw in missed time for an appendectomy and he just never got going. I'm also guessing he was pressing a bit to justify his contract with his new team. I don't really know, but my take is that circumstance and health were part of it, but a lot was on Dunn too.

This year he looks like his old self and the performance is back.

Big Klu
06-16-2012, 03:37 AM
I gotta tell you I'm absolutely shocked about Edwin Encarnacion. I always thought the guy was a bum when he played for the Reds and was thrilled when he was traded. I'm eating some serious crow on that one. Although, I have no question he won't even come close to keeping up this pace.

No need to eat crow. He has never performed anywhere close to this level before, and I doubt he ever would have had any kind of sustained success in Cincinnati. He was the classic example of someone who needed a change in scenery, for both his and the Reds' best interests. There was always the perception that he was a low-energy player. Whether he was or not, I don't know. But bad defense will suck the life out of a team, and he was definitely guilty of bad defense. Also, don't forget that the Blue Jays let him go on waivers to Oakland after the 2010 season, and then the A's let him go less than a month later.

I supported the trade then, and I still do now. Scott Rolen was exactly what this team needed at the time--someone to lead by example and be Wade Garrett to Joey Votto's Dalton. (Bonus points to whomever gets that reference!) I firmly believe that the Reds don't win the division in 2010 if Encarnacion is at 3B instead of Rolen. Sure, Rolen is near the end of the line, and Encarnacion will likely outproduce him in the present and the future (though Edwin's not a 3B anymore--his best position is DH), but Scotty has served his purpose, and he has served the Reds well. This club is Votto's team moving forward--Joey will teach the players of the future the lessons that Scott taught him and Brandon and Jay.

gilpdawg
06-16-2012, 04:07 AM
I think he had some nagging injuries and he definitely looked out of shape to me. Throw in missed time for an appendectomy and he just never got going. I'm also guessing he was pressing a bit to justify his contract with his new team. I don't really know, but my take is that circumstance and health were part of it, but a lot was on Dunn too.

This year he looks like his old self and the performance is back.
Been rumblings that he had some distractions off the field last year. Something about a ill family member and never went public with it. So I'll say no more and leave it at that.

Sea Ray
06-16-2012, 09:09 AM
The truth is what's happened to EE and Dunn never could have hapened in the NL. Both needed the "space" of being able to DH. Without that option, NL teams would not have had the patience to stick with 'em.

That's not to take away from the season they're having. They need not apologize for taking advantage of AL rules. Kudos to them. My point is:

What happened there never could have happened here

RedsManRick
06-16-2012, 12:25 PM
The truth is what's happened to EE and Dunn never could have hapened in the NL. Both needed the "space" of being able to DH. Without that option, NL teams would not have had the patience to stick with 'em.

That's not to take away from the season they're having. They need not apologize for taking advantage of AL rules. Kudos to them. My point is:

What happened there never could have happened here

Even if they were doing what they're doing with the bat, both would have been so bad in the field at this point as to give most or all if it back. I agree that they need the DH, but that's not the only issue.

Tom Servo
06-16-2012, 12:28 PM
Ultimately the EE issue is as Big Klu indicated about putting it all together. I mean, even if we hadn't traded Edwin in 2009, would we really have waited until 2012 for a true breakout?

*BaseClogger*
06-17-2012, 03:52 PM
Scott Rolen was exactly what this team needed at the time--someone to lead by example and be Wade Garrett to Joey Votto's Dalton. (Bonus points to whomever gets that reference!)

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID26342/images/roadhouse_pat-430x300.jpg

jojo
06-17-2012, 03:59 PM
I gotta tell you I'm absolutely shocked about Edwin Encarnacion. I always thought the guy was a bum when he played for the Reds and was thrilled when he was traded. I'm eating some serious crow on that one. Although, I have no question he won't even come close to keeping up this pace.

Toronto has a good track record with the dashed dreams of scouts....

reds44
06-17-2012, 04:47 PM
Edwin has a career .794 OPS. This year, he has at .894. Sure, he's playing better than his career numbers, but it's not like he pulled a Jose Bautista and went from a low-mid .700's OPS to the up .900's. Dude has always been able to hit pretty well.

Tom Servo
06-17-2012, 04:50 PM
Edwin has a career .794 OPS. This year, he has at .894. Sure, he's playing better than his career numbers, but it's not like he pulled a Jose Bautista and went from a low-mid .700's OPS to the up .900's. Dude has always been able to hit pretty well.
But not enough previously to offset his D.

reds44
06-17-2012, 04:51 PM
But not enough previously to offset his D.
At 3rd base? Yes. Who knows how he would have played in LF or at 1st. Clearly, DH was a nice spot for him, though.

muddie
06-17-2012, 07:39 PM
Quentin Berry wasn't traded but released from the Carolina Mudcats at seasons end last year. He started the season at AAA Toledo and has done very well in the leadoff position there. He was called up to Detroit about a month ago when leadoff hitter Austin Jackson was out of the lineup with a health issue. He was 5 for 5 today and is giving the top of the order in Detroit a bit of energy when he gets a start. The guy is batting above .300 and stealing bases. He has a lot of things to work on (strikeouts) but is fun to watch right now.

FWIW, I never understood why Cincy didn't keep him around.

mth123
06-17-2012, 08:14 PM
Quentin Berry wasn't traded but released from the Carolina Mudcats at seasons end last year. He started the season at AAA Toledo and has done very well in the leadoff position there. He was called up to Detroit about a month ago when leadoff hitter Austin Jackson was out of the lineup with a health issue. He was 5 for 5 today and is giving the top of the order in Detroit a bit of energy when he gets a start. The guy is batting above .300 and stealing bases. He has a lot of things to work on (strikeouts) but is fun to watch right now.

FWIW, I never understood why Cincy didn't keep him around.

Had to make room for Daryl Jones.;)

I can't fault the Reds. Berry is a career minor leaguer and this was a long shot. I love it for him, but I'm guessing the clock is approaching midnight.

Kc61
06-25-2012, 10:02 PM
Travis Wood with seven shutout innings, 6 Ks, against Mets tonight, leading Santana and the Mets 2-0. Has an ERA in the 3.5 range. Watching game briefly, glad to see him doing well.

RichRed
06-26-2012, 10:50 AM
Travis Wood with seven shutout innings, 6 Ks, against Mets tonight, leading Santana and the Mets 2-0. Has an ERA in the 3.5 range. Watching game briefly, glad to see him doing well.

Good game for Wood. Check out his helmet though. With this bit of silliness, I'd say Wood has officially been "Cubbed."

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/travis-wood-helmet-decal-snafu-joins-long-list-123619181--mlb.html

camisadelgolf
06-26-2012, 01:29 PM
Brad Boxberger isn't displaying much control so far, but the end results have been decent. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/boxbebr01.shtml

traderumor
06-26-2012, 01:59 PM
Brad Boxberger isn't displaying much control so far, but the end results have been decent. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/boxbebr01.shtmlEver since AA, he walks almost as many as get hits. Thank you Walt, I want no part of relievers who walk people.

Tornon
06-30-2012, 09:31 PM
Yasmani is making his first major league start for the Padres tonight in Coors and hit his first home run

Edit: Actually, he's homered twice

TOBTTReds
06-30-2012, 10:10 PM
Yasmani is making his first major league start for the Padres tonight in Coors and hit his first home run

Edit: Actually, he's homered twice

First MLB player to have 1st two hits be switch hit HR

oregonred
07-01-2012, 12:10 AM
Grandal is going to be a good one. Will be worth it if Latos keeps this up and becomes a front of the rotation pitcher. We won't look back, but that trade was steep. Fortunately the Padres won't hurt the Reds over the next few years as dregs in the NL West. We will have an ex-Red reunion the next weekend. Volike, Deno, Alonso, Grandal... Hope the FO made the right call on the Grandal/Mes decision.

Volquez tonight: 6IP, 3H, 2R, 1ER, 6BB, 8K (117 pitches)

Good end result, but 6 walks and a volquez efficient 117 pitches in 6 innings.

Kc61
07-01-2012, 12:22 AM
Grandal is going to be a good one. Will be worth it if Latos keeps this up and becomes a front of the rotation pitcher. We won't look back, but that trade was steep. Fortunately the Padres won't hurt the Reds over the next few years as dregs in the NL West. We will have an ex-Red reunion the next weekend. Volike, Deno, Alonso, Grandal... Hope the FO made the right call on the Grandal/Mes decision.

Volquez tonight: 6IP, 3H, 2R, 1ER, 6BB, 8K (117 pitches)

Good end result, but 6 walks and a volquez efficient 117 pitches in 6 innings.

Always tough to make a decision between two prospects at the same position without a lot of major league exposure. Inclusion of Grandal in the trade was a risk, hopefully Mes will turn out to be the better player.

Really not concerned about the other players the Reds gave up, but Grandal, good switch hitting catching prospect, was tough.

Of course, Latos is making the deal look pretty good about now.

oregonred
07-01-2012, 12:44 AM
Always tough to make a decision between two prospects at the same position without a lot of major league exposure. Inclusion of Grandal in the trade was a risk, hopefully Mes will turn out to be the better player. Of course, Latos is making the deal look pretty good about now.


Yep, agree. Fortunately the Larkin/Stillwell decision was a good one. This looks to come down to a Grandal for Latos deal in the end. Alonso should provide some cheap years of decent production, but that is TBD with a lifetime .725 OPS in the bigs. Volquez wasn't going to help much going forward and is a frustrating 6IP guy best case.

Really not concerned about the other players the Reds gave up, but Grandal, good switch hitting catching prospect, was tough to give up. Even though Dan Wilson wasn't a HOF'er, that trade really hurt at a position of such few difference makers and he didn't have much of a stick.

We've seen the potential with Latos and if he pitches anything like what we've seen over the next few years the deal it won't matter. Love the K/BB splits in the last 18 innings.

camisadelgolf
07-01-2012, 02:50 AM
I have no doubt that Grandal will be a good hitter. A good catcher? I have a lot of doubts.

PuffyPig
07-01-2012, 08:31 AM
Even though Dan Wilson wasn't a HOF'er, that trade really hurt at a position of such few difference makers and he didn't have much of a stick.



Wilson was a fine receiver with an OPS+ lifetime of 80+, never higher than 95+.

We traded him for Bret Boone, who brought us, inter alia, Denny Neagle, who brought us, inter alia, Drew Henson, who brought us Wily Mo Pena, who brought us Bronson Arroyo. We also got Edwin Encanacion from those deals.

Reds had catchers like Taubensee, Santiago and Oliver during these periods, so that position was generally covered.

All in all, a great trade.

You generally must give to receive.

lollipopcurve
07-01-2012, 09:54 AM
Torreyes' OPS in June: .930. That's as a 19 year old in the Florida State League.

WebScorpion
07-01-2012, 11:29 AM
I have no doubt that Grandal will be a good hitter. A good catcher? I have a lot of doubts.That's been my thought too. I think we kept the best all-around talent and for our pitcher's sake, I think it was the right move. Unfortunately, I think Yas will outhit Mes and people will always be saying we kept the wrong guy. If Latos helps us get to the World Series I think we won that trade, but talent-wise we gave up a lot more than we got. I think with both the Votto/Alonso and the Mes/Yas decisions it partly came down to building our team around defense. I don't mind seeing other teams with All-stars that came from our farm system as long as we are in the playoffs every year. :thumbup:

lidspinner
07-01-2012, 12:05 PM
That's been my thought too. I think we kept the best all-around talent and for our pitcher's sake, I think it was the right move. Unfortunately, I think Yas will outhit Mes and people will always be saying we kept the wrong guy. If Latos helps us get to the World Series I think we won that trade, but talent-wise we gave up a lot more than we got. I think with both the Votto/Alonso and the Mes/Yas decisions it partly came down to building our team around defense. I don't mind seeing other teams with All-stars that came from our farm system as long as we are in the playoffs every year. :thumbup:


Couldn't have said it better...spot on.

Kc61
07-01-2012, 12:28 PM
That's been my thought too. I think we kept the best all-around talent and for our pitcher's sake, I think it was the right move. Unfortunately, I think Yas will outhit Mes and people will always be saying we kept the wrong guy. If Latos helps us get to the World Series I think we won that trade, but talent-wise we gave up a lot more than we got. I think with both the Votto/Alonso and the Mes/Yas decisions it partly came down to building our team around defense. I don't mind seeing other teams with All-stars that came from our farm system as long as we are in the playoffs every year. :thumbup:

If you really think the Reds gave up more talent than they got, I respectfully disagree.

Just keep in mind the value of a TOR type pitcher like Latos under your control for four years still age 24. Very, very valuable player.

Any good young catcher who can hit is valuable I don't doubt that.

But beyond Grandal, I don't think the Reds gave up anything too significant.

Yonder has potential to be a solid starting first baseman, but he doesn't hit for power and plays a power position. Just not sure he is that valuable a commodity.

To me, this was basically Grandal plus for Latos. More than a fair deal for the Reds from a talent perspective.

And, of course, the comparison between Mes and Yasmani will take years to resolve. There are things about Mes I like quite a bit, he's just really not quite ready for prime time just now.

Superdude
07-01-2012, 12:35 PM
That's been my thought too. I think we kept the best all-around talent and for our pitcher's sake, I think it was the right move. Unfortunately, I think Yas will outhit Mes and people will always be saying we kept the wrong guy. If Latos helps us get to the World Series I think we won that trade, but talent-wise we gave up a lot more than we got. I think with both the Votto/Alonso and the Mes/Yas decisions it partly came down to building our team around defense.

I think it's a little soon to say it was a defensive decision. 100 at bats with spotty playing time as a 23 year old is no where near enough to write off Mesoraco as a future offensive force. That said, Grandal certainly looks like the one that got away in that trade.

_Sir_Charles_
07-01-2012, 12:42 PM
If you really think the Reds gave up more talent than they got, I respectfully disagree.

Just keep in mind the value of a TOR type pitcher like Latos under your control for four years still age 24. Very, very valuable player.

Any good young catcher who can hit is valuable I don't doubt that.

But beyond Grandal, I don't think the Reds gave up anything too significant.

Yonder has potential to be a solid starting first baseman, but he doesn't hit for power and plays a power position. Just not sure he is that valuable a commodity.

To me, this was basically Grandal plus for Latos. More than a fair deal for the Reds from a talent perspective.

And, of course, the comparison between Mes and Yasmani will take years to resolve. There are things about Mes I like quite a bit, he's just really not quite ready for prime time just now.

As far as I'm concerned this shouldn't even be debated. Because while both Yonder & Yasmani are indeed talented, they were BOTH completely blocked. So they were ONLY useful to us as trade chips. So in essence, we traded to unusable minor leaguers and a walk machine for a potential ace.

LvJ
07-01-2012, 12:58 PM
Oh, Grandal... :laugh:

http://gif.mocksession.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/GRANDAL.gif

oregonred
07-01-2012, 01:28 PM
Wilson was a fine receiver with an OPS+ lifetime of 80+, never higher than 95+.

We traded him for Bret Boone, who brought us, inter alia, Denny Neagle, who brought us, inter alia, Drew Henson, who brought us Wily Mo Pena, who brought us Bronson Arroyo. We also got Edwin Encanacion from those deals.

Reds had catchers like Taubensee, Santiago and Oliver during these periods, so that position was generally covered.

All in all, a great trade.

You generally must give to receive.

I would certainly not call that a great trade. I would say a fair trade at best. That's quite a stretch of events culminating with a very lucky Wily Mo for Arroyo trade after the absolute Bowden disaster of a deadline trade to the Yanks to give up Neagle in 2000 -- while receiving a bunch of overhyped Yankee prospect garbage in return. Taubensee was a catcher in name only, but did have a great offensive '99 to help with the magical season along with Neagle. Santiago at the end of his career and Oliver filled in adequately.

A fair trade, but Wilson provided a decade of stability and absolutely top notch defense behind the dish for some very good Mariner teams. Boone had one good year with the Reds in '94 and was adequate in '95 before his ped inflated move back to Seattle in the late 90's where he had a run of 3-4 monster seasons. How much a stable Dan Wilson could have helped the Reds pitching staff and defense from '93-'02 is the big unknown.

Someone nailed it above, Grandal may end up not being a catcher when all is said and done. If Latos becomes a TOR pitcher then this becomes a great trade for the Reds no matter what.

PuffyPig
07-01-2012, 04:01 PM
I would certainly not call that a great trade. I would say a fair trade at best. That's quite a stretch of events culminating with a very lucky Wily Mo for Arroyo trade after the absolute Bowden disaster of a deadline trade to the Yanks to give up Neagle in 2000 -- while receiving a bunch of overhyped Yankee prospect garbage in return.

So what if it was lucky?

So what if it was a "stretch of events" if they actually happened. The value we got for trading Wildon is still contributing to us.

Neagle never pitched an effective inning after the trade by us. We ended up with Arroyo. That's a fact. Hard to call that a disaster.

Vottomatic
07-01-2012, 06:33 PM
Well, Latos has found his mojo lately. Probably due to him reading my criticism of here on Redszone. :laugh: (laugh, it's a joke)

I said at the time of the trade that Grandal and Alonso were blocked. It was debatable who was better, Mez or Grandal....... but the experts on here said Mez was the better "true" catcher, which means defense and calling games. I don't think anyone has debated Grandal's "offense". And if he was a catcher, he probably is slow of foot, and will struggle at another position. If he develops consistent power, heck, he may move to 1B, and San Diego will have to deal with what the Reds dealt with and consider moving Alonso to LF.........wouldn't that be funny?

I really only hated trading Grandal and Boxberger. I was worried Grandal's offense might come back to bite us in the butt, and that Boxberger was progressing so fast through the system, he looked like a sure bet quality reliever. But Doug always says relievers are a dime a dozen, so I'll take his word for it.

Frankly, I think it'll end up being a good trade for both teams in the long run. Padres weren't going anywhere, as evidenced by this season. The Reds filled a need (quality starting pitching), unloaded a problem (Volquez), and gave up 3 really good prospects of which 2 were blocked at the major league level. And seeing how the Reds bullpen is one of the best in all of the major leagues, I don't see where they'll miss Boxberger.

So in the immediate, they moved guys who were going to sit in the minors several years for a serious need that is helping now. I sound like that radio commercial for the Duo Card from 5th Third. "Immediate" and "now". LOL. :laugh:

oregonred
07-01-2012, 11:18 PM
So what if it was lucky?

So what if it was a "stretch of events" if they actually happened. The value we got for trading Wildon is still contributing to us.

Neagle never pitched an effective inning after the trade by us. We ended up with Arroyo. That's a fact. Hard to call that a disaster.

It was a fair trade, not a "disaster".

Yes, 5.5 years later (by amazing luck) the Reds received some solid value from 2006-2008 until Arroyo started being overpaid to the market in 2009. The botched Neagle trade at the 2000 deadline was a big contributor to the lost decade and the complete pitching futility of 2001-2005. What Neagle did after 2000 was irrelevant, he was the premier starting pitching chip at the 2000 deadline and Bowden blew it bigtime and accelelerated the franchise towards the lost decade.

Given how poorly the franchise was run back then it may not have mattered but a couple of ready MLB arms in the 2001-2005 stretch wouldn't have hurt when the offense was playing beer league softball.

I'll trust the FO on the Mes/Grandal situation going for the true long term positional catcher with middle of the order potential.

Now I think we can all agree that finding 1-2 replacement level (or even close) LH bats to balance the 25-man roster shouldn't be a major July task. Otherwise we will see more games like today where it comes back to bite this team in the butt.

gilpdawg
07-05-2012, 12:07 AM
Grandal just hit his 4th home run at Arizona.

Tom Servo
07-05-2012, 12:40 AM
Grandal just hit his 4th home run at Arizona.
Not to take away from the guy, but all of those homers have occurred so far on the road. Should be interesting to see how he does at home in Petco.

oregonred
07-05-2012, 12:54 AM
I am happy to see Grandal in San Diego (well after the next four games) instead of a franchise that will be a playoff caliber contender over the next 2-3 seasons.

He's going to be a good one and I'd kill to get a switch hitting bat in this unbalanced lineup, but Mes is starting to come around at the plate and keeps getting better on the defensive side (throw to 3rd last night in the 8th on the blown call was amazing).

lidspinner
07-05-2012, 07:48 AM
I am happy to see Grandal in San Diego (well after the next four games) instead of a franchise that will be a playoff caliber contender over the next 2-3 seasons.

He's going to be a good one and I'd kill to get a switch hitting bat in this unbalanced lineup, but Mes is starting to come around at the plate and keeps getting better on the defensive side (throw to 3rd last night in the 8th on the blown call was amazing).

It is nice to see Yasmani do well, I just hope Mes does as good or better but I would love a switch hitter....YG is a great kid from all I have been told from a few scouts, you like to root for kids like that regardless of what team he is on and being the Reds drafted him, I want him to do well and could care less about the trade and will never look down upon Walt for doing the trade.....he did what he thought he had to do, and the Padres did what they thought they had to do.

Most of us would bend under the everday pressure of making a trade of that caliber, I for one am glad its not me

Vottomatic
07-05-2012, 04:27 PM
Trade idea:
Stubbs, Heisey, Ludwick, Lutz, Arroyo, Soto, Lotzkar, Villarreal, Sulbaran for Grandal. :D :laugh:

traderumor
07-09-2012, 11:07 AM
This was my first look at Grandal. The thing that struck me was his noodle arm. Can he stay at catcher with that weak of an arm?

Alonso = Sean Casey?

Volquez, I know we did not get to him, but watching him pitch is still as brutal as it ever was.

It is hard to imagine that just two years ago, the Padres missed winning the Western Division by a whisker.

dougdirt
07-09-2012, 11:52 AM
This was my first look at Grandal. The thing that struck me was his noodle arm. Can he stay at catcher with that weak of an arm?

Alonso = Sean Casey?

Volquez, I know we did not get to him, but watching him pitch is still as brutal as it ever was.

It is hard to imagine that just two years ago, the Padres missed winning the Western Division by a whisker.

There have long been questions about whether or not Grandal could stick at catcher.

I always said that Alonso was Sean Casey, but he was the Sean Casey who was 40 doubles/25 HR with a .300 average. Of course that changes when you put him in Petco, but I think the comp is still a good one.

RANDY IN INDY
07-09-2012, 02:20 PM
You might see a better Mesoraco if he was playing every day. Grandsl is getting that opportunity on a poor team. Consistent reps make s difference.

OesterPoster
07-09-2012, 03:31 PM
There have long been questions about whether or not Grandal could stick at catcher.

I always said that Alonso was Sean Casey, but he was the Sean Casey who was 40 doubles/25 HR with a .300 average. Of course that changes when you put him in Petco, but I think the comp is still a good one.

I'm still shaking my head at pinch-running Kip Wells for Alonso. I understand the reasoning, but still...if he's that slow now, how slow is Alonso going to be when he's 30? 33? I can't believe any rational Reds fan thinks Alonso could have stuck in LF.

gilpdawg
07-09-2012, 08:33 PM
I'm still shaking my head at pinch-running Kip Wells for Alonso. I understand the reasoning, but still...if he's that slow now, how slow is Alonso going to be when he's 30? 33? I can't believe any rational Reds fan thinks Alonso could have stuck in LF.

I went to a couple of games where he played left last year, and he was getting decent enough jumps on balls to where he could make some plays, but he may be as slow as Casey or slower. Anything blooped or down the line I don't think would have been good. I really only saw him make routine plays, but he made them well, if he could get to it.


Of course, two games isn't near enough to have a definitive answer.

redsmetz
07-09-2012, 09:38 PM
Matt Maloney just tweated that he's done for the season, needing Tommy John surgery.

mth123
07-15-2012, 08:00 PM
Adam Dunn hit career Home Run number 393 to tie Redszone favorite Jim Edmonds for 54th place on the All Time list.

No truth to the rumor that Edmonds made a diving stab at the phone in order to call Adam with kudos.

VottoFan54
07-20-2012, 12:39 AM
Edinson Volquez threw a 1 hit shutout tonight, with the only hit being an infield single in the fourth inning. He walked 3 and had 5 strikeouts.

WVRedsFan
07-20-2012, 01:05 AM
Edinson Volquez threw a 1 hit shutout tonight, with the only hit being an infield single in the fourth inning. He walked 3 and had 5 strikeouts.

Lucky duck. See how many of those he gets. BTW, he contributed to that with a poor fielding try on the infield hit. And it was the Astros in Petco. Sorry, I'm glad SD has him.

camisadelgolf
07-20-2012, 01:17 AM
Ron Torreyes is still rebounding from a horrific start in the FSL, a notorious pitchers league. His line is .253/.320/.367/.687 as he has been getting a little time at shortstop in addition to second base.

Dave Sappelt's line in the PCL (an extreme hitters league) is an underwhelming .255/.314/.342/.656. He has played more in right field than anywhere else, but that's largely due to their top prospect, Brett Jackson (who's striking out 33.2% of the time), being deemed their center fielder of the future.

Travis Wood has been homer-prone (10 allowed in 66.2 IP), but his overall numbers are decent (3.92 ERA, 1.200 WHIP).

Yonder Alonso leads the NL in games at first base as well as errors as a first baseman. His line is .269/.351/.381/.733, so his power numbers aren't all that impressive. They might end up regretting their decision to stick with Alonso over Anthony Rizzo, who has been excellent in Chicago.

Brad Boxberger has been missing bats in AAA, but that tends to happen when you don't throw it over the plate (19 walks, 47 strikeouts in 34.1 IP).

Yasmani Grandal has yet to take his first walk after 16 games. However, he threw out his 2nd runner of the year tonight, which means he has caught just 10% of attempted base stealers (2 out of 20).

Edinson Volquez leads the NL in walks, and it makes you wonder if he'd be a reliever if he weren't pitching in PetCo Park. However, the Padres are 10-10 when Volquez starts and just 29-45 when he doesn't.

Tom Servo
07-20-2012, 01:58 AM
Justin Germano, of one start for the Reds fame, has resurfaced in a Cubs uniform. He may even get a start or two if they trade Dempster.

PuffyPig
07-20-2012, 06:51 AM
Justin Germano, of one start for the Reds fame, has resurfaced in a Cubs uniform. He may even get a start or two if they trade Dempster.

Apparently Dempster has been pulled from his start, so Germano may go tonight.

Cards missed Cueto on Sunday due to a blister, Greinke on Thursday (getting re-charged) and now Dempster.

They lost the first two.

redsmetz
07-20-2012, 07:43 AM
Yonder Alonso leads the NL in games at first base as well as errors as a first baseman. His line is .269/.351/.381/.733, so his power numbers aren't all that impressive. They might end up regretting their decision to stick with Alonso over Anthony Rizzo, who has been excellent in Chicago.

If Alonso plays a long time with the Padres, I think he'll continue to be a doubles machine. He seems to have adapted to that park well, don't you think? It wouldn't shock me that Alonso ends up being the face of the Padres.

Vottomatic
07-20-2012, 07:52 AM
If Alonso plays a long time with the Padres, I think he'll continue to be a doubles machine. He seems to have adapted to that park well, don't you think? It wouldn't shock me that Alonso ends up being the face of the Padres.

Yeah, I view Alonso as a Larry Walker/Keith Hernandez type of hitter. Good average, lots of line drives.

Scrap Irony
07-20-2012, 01:08 PM
Yeah, I view Alonso as a Larry Walker/Keith Hernandez type of hitter. Good average, lots of line drives.

Yonder Alonso couldn't sniff Larry Walker's jock.

Alonso's a good stick at a position that demands a great one.

He also has an iron glove.

He's a latter-career post-surgery Sean Casey.

Mario-Rijo
07-20-2012, 01:12 PM
Yonder Alonso couldn't sniff Larry Walker's jock.

Alonso's a good stick at a position that demands a great one.

He also has an iron glove.

He's a latter-career post-surgery Sean Casey.

Agreed!

westofyou
07-20-2012, 01:18 PM
Yonder Alonso couldn't sniff Larry Walker's jock.

Alonso's a good stick at a position that demands a great one.

He also has an iron glove.

He's a latter-career post-surgery Sean Casey.

Hernandez's glove elevate's him far above Yonder as well.

Yonder??

He'll be lucky to have Driessen's career

dougdirt
07-20-2012, 01:23 PM
Yonder Alonso couldn't sniff Larry Walker's jock.

Alonso's a good stick at a position that demands a great one.

He also has an iron glove.

He's a latter-career post-surgery Sean Casey.

Put Alonso in a ballpark that isn't the size of Yellowstone and he is Sean Casey who hit .300/.400/.500 with 40 doubles and 25 home runs. That of course isn't even close to Larry Walker though.

Patrick Bateman
07-20-2012, 01:26 PM
Put Alonso in a ballpark that isn't the size of Yellowstone and he is Sean Casey who hit .300/.400/.500 with 40 doubles and 25 home runs. That of course isn't even close to Larry Walker though.

Alonso's park adjusted metrics just arent that good! He's on pace to be just over a 1 WAR player. How is a different ballpark going to impove his OBP? He's presumably going to walk a comparable amount, and his BAPIP is already .321. That's a lot of extra homers he needs to get to be a .400 OBP player (of which only 10 guys in the majors are doing right now).

He's better than his stats indicate, but I think at this point, he'd be happy to have Sean Casey's career.

westofyou
07-20-2012, 01:28 PM
Edinson Volquez leads the NL in walks, and it makes you wonder if he'd be a reliever if he weren't pitching in PetCo Park. However, the Padres are 10-10 when Volquez starts and just 29-45 when he doesn't.

One hitter last night... for the first complete game and shutout of his career

757690
07-20-2012, 01:30 PM
Been said by others, but worth repeating...

Yonder Alonso = Lyle Overbay

And that's not as much of an insult as one might think.

edabbs44
07-20-2012, 01:31 PM
Put Alonso in a ballpark that isn't the size of Yellowstone and he is Sean Casey who hit .300/.400/.500 with 40 doubles and 25 home runs. That of course isn't even close to Larry Walker though.

So you would place him as a top 20ish major league hitter, OPS wise?

dougdirt
07-20-2012, 01:52 PM
So you would place him as a top 20ish major league hitter, OPS wise?

Roughly, yes. The guy is a natural hitter with moderate power to good power.

reds44
07-20-2012, 01:58 PM
Volquez's numbers in this season are pretty much all the same as they were last year except his hits are down and his homers are way down. There's no way somebody who walks as many as he does would have success at GABP. He'd be smart to stay in San Diego for the rest of his career.

The reason he was so good in 2008 is because he had his walks under control and didn't give up very many HRs.

OldXOhio
07-20-2012, 02:12 PM
Volquez's numbers in this season are pretty much all the same as they were last year except his hits are down and his homers are way down. There's no way somebody who walks as many as he does would have success at GABP. He'd be smart to stay in San Diego for the rest of his career.

That's what I keep telling myself - there is no way Volquez was going to be successful in a Reds uniform.

westofyou
07-20-2012, 02:19 PM
That's what I keep telling myself - there is no way Volquez was going to be successful in a Reds uniform.


http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/page/rumblings120720/examining-potential-trade-market-starting-pitchers



9) Edinson Volquez


Volquez
Volquez isn't quite as "available" as the other names on this list, because he makes only $2.4 million, and he's still a year and a half away from free agency. But the Padres haven't exactly made him an untouchable, either. So one National League exec calls him "the best name out there who there hasn't been much conversation about."

Like Liriano, Volquez is a potential dominator -- and a potential heartbreaker. He happens to be leading the league in walks and scaring away some teams with his messy 1.65 WHIP away from Petco Canyon. "He's got great stuff a lot of nights," the same exec said. "He's also one of those guys who's either really good or really not. But do they need him with where they're going? I don't think so."

Chances he gets traded: 40 percent.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-20-2012, 02:22 PM
Volquez and Latos (ranks) among 57 NL starters that qualify:

Volquez

fWAR: 1.0 (#44/57)….1.4 WAR (b-r)
K/9: 8.09 (#19/57)
BB/9: 5.19 (#57/57)
HR/9: .59 (#7/57)
ERA: 3.34 (#18/57)
FIP: 3.93 (#23/57)
xFIP: 4.30 (#47/57)


Latos

fWAR: 1.0 (#44/57)….0.5 WAR (b-r)
K/9: 8.34 (#17/57)
BB/9: 2.76 (#35/57)
HR/9: 1.50 (#55/57)
ERA: 4.33 (#46/57)
FIP: 4.34 (#48/57)
xFIP: 3.81 (#28/57)

Volquez (home 2012/SD)…..has benefitted from making 12 of 20 GS in SD.

GS: 12
IP: 76 (6.33 per GS)
K/9: 9.00
BB/9: 4.50
ERA: 2.84
WHIP: 1.17

Latos (home 2012/CIN)…..14 of 19 HR’s given up in CIN (but even so, has pitched better at home).

GS: 11
IP: 69.1 (6.28 per GS)
K/9: 7.40
BB/9: 2.60
ERA: 3.89
WHIP: 1.18

Latos (home 2009-2011/SD)

GS: 33
IP: 185.1 (5.61 per GS)
K/9: 8.69
BB/9: 2.72
ERA: 3.12
WHIP: 1.15

Scrap Irony
07-20-2012, 02:52 PM
Roughly, yes. The guy is a natural hitter with moderate power to good power.

Top 20-ish in baseball? He's the fifth-best hitter on the Padre team!

I wouldn't even put him in the top 20 hitters in the NL West.

Those better:
Troy Tulowitski
Carlos Gonzalez
Dexter Fowler
Paul Goldschmidt
Andre Ethier
Matt Kemp
Carlos Lee
Aaron Hill
Chase Headley
Justin Upton
Gregor Blanco
Melky Cabrera
Buster Posey
Pedro Sandoval
Jason Kubel
Miguel Montero
AJ Ellis
Michael Cuddyer
Gerardo Parra
Carlos Quentin
Yasmani Grandal
Chris Denorfia

dougdirt
07-20-2012, 03:20 PM
Top 20-ish in baseball? He's the fifth-best hitter on the Padre team!

I wouldn't even put him in the top 20 hitters in the NL West.

Those better:
Troy Tulowitski
Carlos Gonzalez
Dexter Fowler
Paul Goldschmidt
Andre Ethier
Matt Kemp
Carlos Lee
Aaron Hill
Chase Headley
Justin Upton
Gregor Blanco
Melky Cabrera
Buster Posey
Pedro Sandoval
Jason Kubel
Miguel Montero
AJ Ellis
Michael Cuddyer
Gerardo Parra
Carlos Quentin
Yasmani Grandal
Chris Denorfia

Some of those guys are better. I stand by what I said, put Alonso in a ballpark that is a normal sized park and you will see a very complete hitter.

camisadelgolf
07-20-2012, 03:33 PM
Some of those guys are better. I stand by what I said, put Alonso in a ballpark that is a normal sized park and you will see a very complete hitter.
Can you count on more than one hand the number of hitters listed above that you feel are worse than Yonder Alonso? I think Alonso's better than his stats, too, but a .900 OPS? I'll accept that he might be a top-20 hitter in the NL West, but I don't know about being a top-20 hitter in MLB . . .

dougdirt
07-20-2012, 04:33 PM
Can you count on more than one hand the number of hitters listed above that you feel are worse than Yonder Alonso? I think Alonso's better than his stats, too, but a .900 OPS? I'll accept that he might be a top-20 hitter in the NL West, but I don't know about being a top-20 hitter in MLB . . .

Right now, probably not a top 20 hitter in MLB. In his prime? Yeah, I think he has the potential to be that kind of guy in a non-crazy dimensional ballpark.

Scrap Irony
07-20-2012, 04:33 PM
Just in big ballparks that are offensive drags (multi-year Ballpark Factors with ranges of 88 to 92), it's hard to make a case for him as a Top-20 player.

Players on said teams with 150+ ABs and an OPS+ higher than Alonso's 108 include:
Michael Saunders
Albert Pujols
Mike Trout
Mark Trumbo
Kendrys Morales
Torii Hunter
Buster Posey
Melky Cabrera
Pablo Sandoval
Brandon Belt
Chris Denorfia
Ben Zobrist
Matt Joyce
Evan Longoria
Jeff Keppinger
Carlos Quentin
Chase Headley
Casper Wells
John Jasso

He's tied with Gregor Blanco and Angel Pagan for 20th on the list.

If you go by wOBA, he's 23rd.

(Those parks, btw, are located in San Francisco, San Diego, Anaheim, Oakland, Seattle, and Tampa Bay. interestingly, no LA.)

RBA
07-20-2012, 11:10 PM
Yasmani Grandal with a 2 run shot into the left field stands.

kaldaniels
07-22-2012, 05:34 PM
Travis Wood with 14 ER in his last 10+ innings.

He had me scared there for a while with his scoreless streak.

kaldaniels
07-29-2012, 11:34 PM
Guess who's coming to GABP on Monday.....

Kc61
07-29-2012, 11:44 PM
Guess who's coming to GABP on Monday.....

Reds go for 11 straight against Volquez.

No big deal if Marquis ends the streak on Tuesday. Or Kip Wells on Wednesday. Actually, I kind of like Kip Wells, he pitched pretty well for the Reds.

Must. Beat. Volquez.

Tom Servo
07-30-2012, 12:02 AM
Reds go for 11 straight against Volquez.

No big deal if Marquis ends the streak on Tuesday. Or Kip Wells on Wednesday. Actually, I kind of like Kip Wells, he pitched pretty well for the Reds.

Must. Beat. Volquez.
Volquez, Marquis, and Wells?

I want 13 straight. :KoolAid:

gilpdawg
07-30-2012, 02:35 AM
Well, last time the Reds faced Volquez was the night the thankfully short lived uber annoying meme "tip your cap" took hold in the game thread. :)

mattfeet
07-30-2012, 03:41 PM
John Fay ‏@johnfayman

Padres just put Hatcher on the DL and called up Bread Boxberger. That means all four players in the Latos trade could play tonight. #reds

Tom Servo
07-30-2012, 04:17 PM
John Fay ‏@johnfayman

Padres just put Hatcher on the DL and called up Bread Boxberger. That means all four players in the Latos trade could play tonight. #reds
Bread Boxberger.

mattfeet
07-30-2012, 04:23 PM
Bread Boxberger.

I was going to edit it, but then folks wouldn't believe it was from Fay. :lol:

Superdude
07-30-2012, 04:27 PM
Bread Boxberger.

What a genius nickname. :laugh: How did we never come up with that?

RichRed
07-30-2012, 04:31 PM
What a genius nickname. :laugh: How did we never come up with that?

From now on, every pitcher's size shall be measured by whether or not he's bigger than a Bread Box(berger).

Vottomatic
07-30-2012, 04:34 PM
Bread Boxberger.

He'll fit right in with

Cheese Headley
and
Mustard Cabrera

REDREAD
07-30-2012, 04:43 PM
Put Alonso in a ballpark that isn't the size of Yellowstone and he is Sean Casey who hit .300/.400/.500 with 40 doubles and 25 home runs. That of course isn't even close to Larry Walker though.

I think if Alonso was truly an elite hitter, he could do better in Petco.
Adrain Gonzales had a 904 OPS season there in 2010.. It can be done.

Could he do better if he wasn't in Petco? Sure.
I'm glad he couldn't play LF and the Reds traded him.
Even if he could play LF as well as Ludwick, I'd rather have Ludwick this year.
Of course, Alsono has a good chance to get better, but I doubt he's ever a 900 OPS player. There's not many of those. To put it in context, Bruce has never done it, despite playing in the GAB, and Bruce was more of a "can't miss" than Alsonso.. Maybe Jay will do it eventually too, but it doesn't seem very likely.

Tom Servo
07-30-2012, 04:45 PM
Worth noting that Alonso is actually hitting better at Petco than away from it.

dougdirt
07-30-2012, 04:49 PM
I think if Alonso was truly an elite hitter, he could do better in Petco.
Adrain Gonzales had a 904 OPS season there in 2010.. It can be done.

Could he do better if he wasn't in Petco? Sure.
I'm glad he couldn't play LF and the Reds traded him.
Even if he could play LF as well as Ludwick, I'd rather have Ludwick this year.
Of course, Alsono has a good chance to get better, but I doubt he's ever a 900 OPS player. There's not many of those. To put it in context, Bruce has never done it, despite playing in the GAB, and Bruce was more of a "can't miss" than Alsonso.. Maybe Jay will do it eventually too, but it doesn't seem very likely.

Alonso isn't an elite power guy like Adrian Gonzalez is/was. That makes a difference in a place like Petco. Alonso has talked about how he has basically altered his swing because he knows trying to hit for power there won't work for him. You would see a different guy in other places.

HokieRed
07-30-2012, 10:14 PM
Alonso isn't an elite power guy like Adrian Gonzalez is/was. That makes a difference in a place like Petco. Alonso has talked about how he has basically altered his swing because he knows trying to hit for power there won't work for him. You would see a different guy in other places.

Agree. As I said about him for years, and as he's demonstrating tonight, he would have been a killer in GABP.

Patrick Bateman
07-30-2012, 11:32 PM
Agree. As I said about him for years, and as he's demonstrating tonight, he would have been a killer in GABP.

Those hits would fall in anywhere!

He just hadnt been doing that all year.

Vottomatic
07-31-2012, 09:03 AM
I have to admit that when we play the Padres it bothers the heck out of me to see Alonso, Grandal, Boxberger and Volquez do well. Seems like they've kind of gotten the best of us so far. Annoying.

Always Red
07-31-2012, 09:07 AM
I have to admit that when we play the Padres it bothers the heck out of me to see Alonso, Grandal, Boxberger and Volquez do well. Seems like they've kind of gotten the best of us so far. Annoying.

And then I remember that Latos is 24, controllable for the near future, adjusting nicely with 9 wins and an ERA that is declining, and that Alonso is a bench player on this Reds team, Volquez is shell-shocked by this time of the season from GAPB, and Grandal and BreadBox would be in Louisville.

Matt700wlw
07-31-2012, 09:12 AM
And the Reds are 20 games over .500 and in first place, while the Pirates are 16 games under .500 and in 4th place.

wolfboy
07-31-2012, 09:29 AM
And the Reds are 20 games over .500 and in first place, while the Pirates are 16 games under .500 and in 4th place.

Don't we wish...

traderumor
07-31-2012, 09:35 AM
I have to admit that when we play the Padres it bothers the heck out of me to see Alonso, Grandal, Boxberger and Volquez do well. Seems like they've kind of gotten the best of us so far. Annoying.We took 3 of 4 from them in Petco, Alonso was quiet, Grandal had a decent series, Volquez reminded me why I could hardly watch games he pitched last night, and Boxberger just got called up. Last night was the inevitable loss.

mdccclxix
07-31-2012, 09:44 AM
Alonso, 25, San Diego, .268/.343/.389/.732
Grandal, 23, San Diego, .312/.349/.597/.946 - 83 PA
Volquez, 28, San Diego, 3.44 ERA, 4.01 FIP
Boxberger, 24, San Diego, 1.17 ERA, 3.72 FIP - 7 IP

Torreyes, 19, A+, .265/.327/.389/.716
Sappelt, 25, AAA, .254 /.313/.344/.657
Wood, 25, Cubs, 4.98 ERA, 5.85 FIP

Benihana
07-31-2012, 09:46 AM
Still looks like Grandal is/was the gem in the deal. I don't really miss Alonso other than he could be a valuable LH bat off the bench. As much as the Reds need one of those, I'd take a #2 SP over that every day of the week.

Will be interesting to see how Grandal and Mesoraco stack up next season.

wolfboy
07-31-2012, 09:53 AM
Still looks like Grandal is/was the gem in the deal. I don't really miss Alonso other than he could be a valuable LH bat off the bench. As much as the Reds need one of those, I'd take a #2 SP over that every day of the week.

Will be interesting to see how Grandal and Mesoraco stack up next season.

Mesoraco has the Hulk Smash. He will always be better than Grandal.

You wouldn't like him when he's angry...

Vottomatic
07-31-2012, 10:00 AM
You guys need to read and understand better. I said nothing about the Padres getting the better of the trade. I've been on record as saying it was a wash.

All I said is I root for the guys we traded to not do well. I hate being that way, but I'm competitive and I don't want to see any of them become studs and have to listen to crap down the road about how the Reds gave up too much.

But for the record, Grandal and Alonso were blocked.......so we didn't need them. Boxberger is a decent reliever. Reds bullpen is the best or one of the best in mlb, so we didn't need him either. Volquez is Volquez........a headcase. I have no problem with the trade, but still don't want to see any of them have ALOT OF SUCCESS. Especially against the Reds.

Sea Ray
07-31-2012, 10:08 AM
You guys need to read and understand better. I said nothing about the Padres getting the better of the trade. I've been on record as saying it was a wash.

All I said is I root for the guys we traded to not do well. I hate being that way, but I'm competitive and I don't want to see any of them become studs and have to listen to crap down the road about how the Reds gave up too much.

But for the record, Grandal and Alonso were blocked.......so we didn't need them. Boxberger is a decent reliever. Reds bullpen is the best or one of the best in mlb, so we didn't need him either. Volquez is Volquez........a headcase. I have no problem with the trade, but still don't want to see any of them have ALOT OF SUCCESS. Especially against the Reds.

Yes, they were blocked. The question isn't should we have traded them but did we get "our money's worth" for them? Seems to me that the Pads would have a rough time fielding a team without all those ex Reds. Because of that trade we really don't have much bait to offer in a deadline deal today.

As long as Latos continues to pitch like a #2, we did OK. I still tend to think we gave up one player too much

BuckeyeRedleg
07-31-2012, 10:11 AM
If Alonso could play the Reds everyday of his career he would be a Hall of Famer.

Vottomatic
07-31-2012, 10:16 AM
Strange to me how my comment about wanting to see ex-Reds traded to the Padres not do too well, with no comment on the trade overall, turns into a dredging up of the trade for Latos re-discussion.

wolfboy
07-31-2012, 10:21 AM
You post this:


I have to admit that when we play the Padres it bothers the heck out of me to see Alonso, Grandal, Boxberger and Volquez do well. Seems like they've kind of gotten the best of us so far. Annoying.

and then get upset because it results in a discussion about the Latos trade? The way I see it, you have two options: (1) if you claim you're being misconstrued, express yourself better; or, (2) don't complain when comments like this generate discussion of the trade for Latos. No one is dredging up old threads here. You initiated the discussion.

Mario-Rijo
07-31-2012, 10:22 AM
Still looks like Grandal is/was the gem in the deal. I don't really miss Alonso other than he could be a valuable LH bat off the bench. As much as the Reds need one of those, I'd take a #2 SP over that every day of the week.

Will be interesting to see how Grandal and Mesoraco stack up next season.

I think I'd rather have Boxberger back than any, still not sold on Grandal staying behind the plate for more than a few years.

Vottomatic
07-31-2012, 10:34 AM
You post this:



and then get upset because it results in a discussion about the Latos trade? The way I see it, you have two options: (1) if you claim you're being misconstrued, express yourself better; or, (2) don't complain when comments like this generate discussion of the trade for Latos. No one is dredging up old threads here. You initiated the discussion.

Yes, I was misconstrued.

My original post had nothing to do with the trade. "Getting the best of us" meant they were doing well against us, hitting/pitching etc, results in the boxscore. Nothing more, nothing less. It had nothing to do with the trade.

But enjoy pointing your finger. :laugh:

HokieRed
07-31-2012, 11:58 AM
3 points
1. I like the trade: classic case of giving up real, considerable value to get real, considerable value that's more in line with what the team needs.
2. Yonder Alonso will hit. He has all the tools he's shown all along: extremely early pitch recognition, great balance at the plate, good control of the strike zone. He'd have hit a lot of home runs in GABP to LCF. Unfortunately he's limited to one position and apparently there was no chance that Votto could be moved to LF to open 1b for him. Still, if that had been possible, our lineup would be much better balanced right now and we wouldn't be fixating on Juan Pierre types for balance.
3. I think we'll miss Alonso and also Grandal, who I'd guess is only 50/50 at C going forward but who will, I think, have a much better offensive career than Mesoraco, who nevertheless was the better one to keep because he's going to be more than acceptable at C for a long time to come.
But I think there'll be days when we look back at Alonso and Grandal and regret the trade. And if Latos gets hurt, these days will be frequent. That, in my view, is still the biggest risk in this kind of deal for a SP.

pedro
07-31-2012, 12:01 PM
Just want to point out that if the number of players in a trade isn't even on both sides comparing the number of WAR is an extremely flawed way of trying to measure the results.

mth123
07-31-2012, 09:26 PM
Personally, I like it when players the Reds deal do well. It speaks highly of the system and the players they develop and just might create some credibility in the organization, lead to the players being coveted and increase their value a smidgen on the trade market.

RedlegJake
08-01-2012, 12:19 AM
I hope Alonso hits like thunder, Grandal is an all-star catcher who alternates AS years with Mesoraco and Boxberger is a top notch reliever. I even hope Edinson has a nice career in Petco where his wildness is mitigated by the big park. If Latos can meet his potential in Cincinnati then all is well with the trade - both sides come out winners. You can even say the Reds lost the trade and I don;t care. If they get a #1 or 2 starter in Latos I don't care if they "lose" the trade. You can lose a trade and still win it as backwards as that sounds.

Always Red
08-01-2012, 05:31 AM
I hope Alonso hits like thunder, Grandal is an all-star catcher who alternates AS years with Mesoraco and Boxberger is a top notch reliever. I even hope Edinson has a nice career in Petco where his wildness is mitigated by the big park. If Latos can meet his potential in Cincinnati then all is well with the trade - both sides come out winners. You can even say the Reds lost the trade and I don;t care. If they get a #1 or 2 starter in Latos I don't care if they "lose" the trade. You can lose a trade and still win it as backwards as that sounds.

For some strange reason, I always root for guys who started out as Reds. It's like they went to my high school or something, some weird parochial Cincinnati thing?

bucksfan2
08-01-2012, 11:07 AM
For some strange reason, I always root for guys who started out as Reds. It's like they went to my high school or something, some weird parochial Cincinnati thing?

I can't root for Volquez just can't.

As for the rest of the guys I always liked Alonso and he was a class act during his time in Cincy. I hope he becomes a monster in every game he plays with the exception of the games in Cincy.

Always Red
08-01-2012, 11:21 AM
I can't root for Volquez just can't.



I can't either.

He didn't start out as a Red. :D

BuckeyeRedleg
08-01-2012, 11:51 AM
I can't root for Volquez just can't.

As for the rest of the guys I always liked Alonso and he was a class act during his time in Cincy. I hope he becomes a monster in every game he plays with the exception of the games in Cincy.

Sums up my thoughts as well.

Vottomatic
08-01-2012, 12:44 PM
Personally, I like it when players the Reds deal do well. It speaks highly of the system and the players they develop and just might create some credibility in the organization, lead to the players being coveted and increase their value a smidgen on the trade market.

I see your point. I guess I hope they do well except when they play the Reds. I've altered my original statement. :thumbup:

REDREAD
08-01-2012, 01:14 PM
Alonso isn't an elite power guy like Adrian Gonzalez is/was. That makes a difference in a place like Petco. Alonso has talked about how he has basically altered his swing because he knows trying to hit for power there won't work for him. You would see a different guy in other places.

But the claim was that in another part, Alonso could 400 OBP / 500 SLG
Petco isn't likely to be hurting his OBP, is it?
It's 342 now.

Yea, Alosno altered his swing, but that seems to have been a mistake if he did that.

He had gaudy numbers last year in Cincy, but I wonder how much of that was helped by small sample size and Dusty playing him in favorable matchups. Also, now that Alonso is a regular starting player, teams are going to have better scouting reports on his weaknesses.

M2
08-01-2012, 01:50 PM
Yonder's not an elite anything guy, which is why it made sense to deal him away from a team that employs the best 1B in the business.

dougdirt
08-01-2012, 02:08 PM
But the claim was that in another part, Alonso could 400 OBP / 500 SLG
Petco isn't likely to be hurting his OBP, is it?
It's 342 now.

Yea, Alosno altered his swing, but that seems to have been a mistake if he did that.

He had gaudy numbers last year in Cincy, but I wonder how much of that was helped by small sample size and Dusty playing him in favorable matchups. Also, now that Alonso is a regular starting player, teams are going to have better scouting reports on his weaknesses.

Yes, Petco hurts OBP because non-homer runs cause BABIP to change, which changes average, which changes OBP.

And when I said he is a .300/.400/.500 guy, I meant more so in his prime than right this second.

AmarilloRed
08-01-2012, 02:11 PM
I'll definitely be following how Torreyes does-I wish they had found a way to keep him out of the trade.

_Sir_Charles_
08-01-2012, 03:24 PM
I'll definitely be following how Torreyes does-I wish they had found a way to keep him out of the trade.

I agree. And after his horrible start to the season, he's playing very well here in the second half.

First half .221/.284/.302/.585
Second half .333/.392/.522/.914

And 23 bb for the year to go with 23 K's. Of all the guys traded this off season, he's the one I may miss the most.

Scrap Irony
08-01-2012, 03:48 PM
Yonder's not an elite anything guy, which is why it made sense to deal him away from a team that employs the best 1B in the business.

This.

Alonso's the chuck round of first baseman. Unfortunately, he's playing a position that, for a decade now, has demanded filet or, at worst, prime rib.

REDREAD
08-01-2012, 03:54 PM
Yes, Petco hurts OBP because non-homer runs cause BABIP to change, which changes average, which changes OBP.

And when I said he is a .300/.400/.500 guy, I meant more so in his prime than right this second.

Ok I apolgize for misreading.. In his prime, he might hit better.
Still, I think Alonso potential upside is a 20 HR guy, even in the GAB, so it's not like that many potential HRs are being turned into outs.
In other words, in the limited time I saw Alonso, he was not a Ludwick-like hitter.

dougdirt
08-02-2012, 11:46 AM
Ok I apolgize for misreading.. In his prime, he might hit better.
Still, I think Alonso potential upside is a 20 HR guy, even in the GAB, so it's not like that many potential HRs are being turned into outs.
In other words, in the limited time I saw Alonso, he was not a Ludwick-like hitter.

See, I guess that is part of the difference. I think in a park like GABP, Alonso is a 25-30 HR guy with 35-40 doubles. Basically, he Sean Casey in his prime.

REDREAD
08-02-2012, 04:54 PM
See, I guess that is part of the difference. I think in a park like GABP, Alonso is a 25-30 HR guy with 35-40 doubles. Basically, he Sean Casey in his prime.

You may be right..
You've certainly watched him more than me.
I Guess time will tell :)
I'm still thrilled we made the trade, and we didn't move Joey to LF.
(Not saying you disagree, just happy they were able to keep Joey over Alonso)

Kc61
08-03-2012, 06:17 PM
Renaldo Torreyes made the Baseball America Hot Prospect Sheet today. They emphasized his excellent ability to make contact. Good for him.

Scrap Irony
08-03-2012, 06:55 PM
See, I guess that is part of the difference. I think in a park like GABP, Alonso is a 25-30 HR guy with 35-40 doubles. Basically, he Sean Casey in his prime.

Not that it will come to pass, but I don't think there's a chance in Hades that Alonso could put up those numbers. His numbers outside of Petco are just as bad as those while playing at home. A .264/ .323/ .388/ .711 line away from home is really bad, IMO, for a 1B with a poor glove and absolutely no speed.

Of 1B/ DH with at least 250 ABs, Alonso's WAR(0.7) is tied with Chris Davis for 19th.

Always Red
08-03-2012, 06:59 PM
See, I guess that is part of the difference. I think in a park like GABP, Alonso is a 25-30 HR guy with 35-40 doubles. Basically, he Sean Casey in his prime.

Basically, he hopes to be Sean Casey in his prime.

That remains to be seen. Right now, he reminds me of Dan Driessen, without the defense.

But like all Lost Boys raised in the Reds system, and then swapped away, I'll always root for him and hope for the best.

Sabo Fan
08-03-2012, 08:42 PM
See, I guess that is part of the difference. I think in a park like GABP, Alonso is a 25-30 HR guy with 35-40 doubles. Basically, he Sean Casey in his prime.

I have very little beyond just a feeling that I get, but Alonso has always struck me as Daric Barton without the defense. Good OBP skills but just doesn't possess the power that is traditionally associated with the 1B position. Again, just what my gut tells me.

fearofpopvol1
08-03-2012, 09:57 PM
Not that it will come to pass, but I don't think there's a chance in Hades that Alonso could put up those numbers. His numbers outside of Petco are just as bad as those while playing at home. A .264/ .323/ .388/ .711 line away from home is really bad, IMO, for a 1B with a poor glove and absolutely no speed.

Of 1B/ DH with at least 250 ABs, Alonso's WAR(0.7) is tied with Chris Davis for 19th.

A minor point, but fangraphs has his defense so far this year as a small tick above average. He very well may end up being at least an average defender.

PuffyPig
08-03-2012, 11:12 PM
That remains to be seen. Right now, he reminds me of Dan Driessen, without the defense.



And the speed. Driessen was exceptionally fast, vs, extermely slow.

edabbs44
08-04-2012, 07:10 PM
Caught a glimpse of EdE today playing first. As he was botching a semi tough pop fly in foul territory, I noticed that he appeared to be much bigger than he was in Cincy. Especially in the legs. Has anyone noticed the same thing?

westofyou
08-04-2012, 09:04 PM
Caught a glimpse of EdE today playing first. As he was botching a semi tough pop fly in foul territory, I noticed that he appeared to be much bigger than he was in Cincy. Especially in the legs. Has anyone noticed the same thing?

Blew a play last night too on a throw to 2nd, he's not a player in the field

OesterPoster
08-06-2012, 09:08 AM
Jim Callis answered a Cubs fan question about Torreyes this morning:

Jim Callis ‏@jimcallisBA

No. Undersized 2B with just one potential plus tool (bat). @davidrelliott: Do you see Torreyes in #Cubs top 10?

PickOff
08-06-2012, 09:57 AM
Caught a glimpse of EdE today playing first. As he was botching a semi tough pop fly in foul territory, I noticed that he appeared to be much bigger than he was in Cincy. Especially in the legs. Has anyone noticed the same thing?

I haven't noticed, but wouldn't be suprised in the least. Many people add girth around the 28-32 age range.

bellhead
08-06-2012, 10:01 AM
Jim Callis answered a Cubs fan question about Torreyes this morning:

Jim Callis ‏@jimcallisBA

No. Undersized 2B with just one potential plus tool (bat). @davidrelliott: Do you see Torreyes in #Cubs top 10?

I thought he was a plus defensive 2nd baseman...

dougdirt
08-06-2012, 11:13 AM
I thought he was a plus defensive 2nd baseman...

More of a good defensive second baseman. Very sure hands. Solid, but not outstanding range.

traderumor
08-06-2012, 11:21 AM
Torreyes = Altuve?

dougdirt
08-06-2012, 12:12 PM
Torreyes = Altuve?

Doubtful. Entirely different body types. Altuve is short and stocky. Torreyes, at least right now, is short and very skinny.

traderumor
08-06-2012, 12:26 PM
Doubtful. Entirely different body types. Altuve is short and stocky. Torreyes, at least right now, is short and very skinny.Doubtful in what sense? That Torreyes can be a starting second baseman? I guess I was looking at it from a high batting average but little else guy.

dougdirt
08-06-2012, 01:45 PM
Doubtful in what sense? That Torreyes can be a starting second baseman? I guess I was looking at it from a high batting average but little else guy.

Maybe they could put up similar numbers, I don't know for sure. But I would expect Altuve to hit for a bit more power.

traderumor
08-06-2012, 02:18 PM
Maybe they could put up similar numbers, I don't know for sure. But I would expect Altuve to hit for a bit more power.Yea, from what little I've seen of Torreyes, I doubt if he is going to hit 5 homers in a year.

WVRedsFan
08-06-2012, 02:34 PM
Edinson's last two starts were not notable:

Against the Reds - 5 innings, 6 hits, 5ER walking 3 and striking out 5.

Against the NYM - 1.2 innings, 2 hits 4 ER, walking 4 and striking out 3.

Both were starts.

lollipopcurve
08-06-2012, 02:38 PM
Torreyes post All Start break in the hitter-unfriendly FSL:

.327/.388/.509/.897

19 years old.

Blitz Dorsey
08-06-2012, 02:48 PM
For the season in 351 ABs, Torreyes is batting .271 with an OPS of .730.

That's a whole lot of "meh."

lollipopcurve
08-06-2012, 02:55 PM
For the season in 351 ABs, Torreyes is batting .271 with an OPS of .730.

That's a whole lot of "meh."

Again, 19 years old. And the difference between the dreadful first half and the scorching second half likely means he has adjusted to the league and to being in a new organization, meaning what he's been doing recently is a better representation of who he actually is as a player. Which is a good one.

dfs
08-06-2012, 03:15 PM
For the season in 351 ABs, Torreyes is batting .271 with an OPS of .730.

That's a whole lot of "meh."

In Juan Duran and Yorman Rodriguez the reds have two guys on their prospect list because A. They spent a lot of money on them and B. they are young for their leagues. They've never really done anything interesting.

I'll take a 19 year old that plays in the middle infield and OPS's 730 in high A ball.

dougdirt
08-06-2012, 03:34 PM
For the season in 351 ABs, Torreyes is batting .271 with an OPS of .730.

That's a whole lot of "meh."

In the Florida State League that is actually solid, regardless of his age. Toss in his age it is actually pretty darn good.

Ryan Braun went through the FSL at age 21 and OPS'd .784. The two stops before and after the FSL he had a combined line of .324/.379/.611. The FSL is like playing in Petco for every game.

Oh, and Torreyes is only one of TWO teenagers that are in the FSL who are on the offensive side of the ball. He and Gary Sanchez. Sanchez has all of 100 PA's. He is currently OPS'ing .680 after destroying the South Atlantic League with a .300/.350/.520 line as a 19 year old.

dougdirt
08-06-2012, 03:39 PM
Again, 19 years old. And the difference between the dreadful first half and the scorching second half likely means he has adjusted to the league and to being in a new organization, meaning what he's been doing recently is a better representation of who he actually is as a player. Which is a good one.

More than likely his BABIP has just found its way towards normal. His BABIP has been over .340 the last two months and he is still just sitting at .278 on the season because his April and May his BABIP was .254 and .127.

lollipopcurve
08-06-2012, 04:12 PM
More than likely his BABIP has just found its way towards normal. His BABIP has been over .340 the last two months and he is still just sitting at .278 on the season because his April and May his BABIP was .254 and .127.

Impossible for me to believe that luck is the only explanation.

bucksfan2
08-06-2012, 04:27 PM
Edinson's last two starts were not notable:

Against the Reds - 5 innings, 6 hits, 5ER walking 3 and striking out 5.

Against the NYM - 1.2 innings, 2 hits 4 ER, walking 4 and striking out 3.

Both were starts.

Any guesses as to how long Volquez hangs around the majors?

Its the same song and dance with him. Tantalizing stuff but so so control and throws way too many pitches. I was wondering when the Reds faced him, if you kept your bat on your shoulder, would he throw 3 strikes before 4 balls?

Kc61
08-06-2012, 04:31 PM
Impossible for me to believe that luck is the only explanation.

It would be interesting to see if Torreyes' line drive, ground ball, or fly ball percentage has changed much in the second half. That could provide some explanation.

Torreyes is the anti-Dunn. He doesn't walk. He doesn't strike out. He doesn't homer.

So most of his plate appearances, by far, result in a batted ball in play.

Either he is hitting the ball differently this second half, for more authority, or different type of batted ball. Or maybe it is just luck.

Sappelt, traded with Torreyes, is a similar type hitter with more power. This year his K rate is double his BB rate, but still pretty low numbers on each. He doesn't walk much, K much, or homer much. His hitting percentage numbers have swung south this year.

Sea Ray
08-06-2012, 04:41 PM
Any guesses as to how long Volquez hangs around the majors?

Its the same song and dance with him. Tantalizing stuff but so so control and throws way too many pitches. I was wondering when the Reds faced him, if you kept your bat on your shoulder, would he throw 3 strikes before 4 balls?

As with most things it comes down to money. He has one more arbitration yr so if he agrees to a reasonable deal the Pads will likely give him one more yr to prove his worth but the big decision comes after next yr

Cooper
08-06-2012, 04:44 PM
I'm impressed with those numbers from Torreyes....that's good production in the fsl, for a middle fielder, for a 19 yo.

dougdirt
08-06-2012, 05:00 PM
Impossible for me to believe that luck is the only explanation.

I am sure that it is more than just luck, but a big part of it probably is luck. Torreyes is a guy who for his entire career has carried a BABIP in the US of .365. Then for the first two months of the season he goes out and has a BABIP under .200. Then it magically goes back to the .350 range. Something tells me luck has a lot to do with it.

lollipopcurve
08-06-2012, 05:28 PM
Something tells me luck has a lot to do with it.

I'm sure it's a factor. How much, none of us can say. But I am certain there's more to the story.

_Sir_Charles_
08-06-2012, 05:34 PM
Torreyes is the anti-Dunn. He doesn't walk. He doesn't strike out. He doesn't homer.

IMO the lack of walks is deceptive. He's such a high level contact hitter, he's simply hitting everything that's in the zone. From everything I've seen and read, he's got fantastic plate discipline.

Kc61
08-06-2012, 06:39 PM
IMO the lack of walks is deceptive. He's such a high level contact hitter, he's simply hitting everything that's in the zone. From everything I've seen and read, he's got fantastic plate discipline.


Sorry to disagree with the conclusion, but a non-power hitter like Torreyes will make his living on his ability to get on base. If he only walks 6.3% of the time, like this year, that will hurt him.

His highest walk rate so far is 8.1% in Rookie ball. His walk rate was 4.6% in A ball last year, and now at High A it is 6.3%.

I agree he has great ability to make contact, and with speed he can get infield hits too. But as an OBP man it will take fantastic hitting ability and great luck to overcome lack of walks.

He's young, the walks may well come.

dougdirt
08-06-2012, 06:56 PM
If he turns into Juan Pierre at 2nd base, that is a good thing.

_Sir_Charles_
08-06-2012, 08:08 PM
Sorry to disagree with the conclusion, but a non-power hitter like Torreyes will make his living on his ability to get on base. If he only walks 6.3% of the time, like this year, that will hurt him.

His highest walk rate so far is 8.1% in Rookie ball. His walk rate was 4.6% in A ball last year, and now at High A it is 6.3%.

I agree he has great ability to make contact, and with speed he can get infield hits too. But as an OBP man it will take fantastic hitting ability and great luck to overcome lack of walks.

He's young, the walks may well come.

I think you're misunderstanding me a bit. From what I've seen/read, he doesn't swing at balls often outside of the strike zone. So in other words, when a ball is in the strikezone, he doesn't swing and miss either. He's putting the ball in play. If he was not taking walks due to him swinging at balls, I'd be concerned...but that's not the case. If they throw him balls...he'll take the walks, but if they put one in there he can do something with, he's hitting it. Going in there looking for walks to increase your OBP just reeks of a passive approach IMO.

Let me put it this way, what do you want a hitter to do?

If a ball is in the strikezone? Watch it sail past? Swing and miss? Put it in play or foul it off? He leans towards this last one. That's what I'd want him to do.

If a ball is OUT of the strikezone? Swing and miss it? Foul it off if it's close? Let it sail past? He leans towards the last 2. Again, exactly what I'd want him to do.

Kc61
08-06-2012, 09:11 PM
I think you're misunderstanding me a bit. From what I've seen/read, he doesn't swing at balls often outside of the strike zone. So in other words, when a ball is in the strikezone, he doesn't swing and miss either. He's putting the ball in play. If he was not taking walks due to him swinging at balls, I'd be concerned...but that's not the case. If they throw him balls...he'll take the walks, but if they put one in there he can do something with, he's hitting it. Going in there looking for walks to increase your OBP just reeks of a passive approach IMO.

Let me put it this way, what do you want a hitter to do?

If a ball is in the strikezone? Watch it sail past? Swing and miss? Put it in play or foul it off? He leans towards this last one. That's what I'd want him to do.

If a ball is OUT of the strikezone? Swing and miss it? Foul it off if it's close? Let it sail past? He leans towards the last 2. Again, exactly what I'd want him to do.

The difficulty I have with your post is that, while I'm sure Torreyes makes contact with good pitches and fouls off many bad pitches, I see no evidence that he lets bad pitches "sail past." If he did, he would have more walks.

So, yes, you have a Juan Pierre type hitter who swings at many pitches, makes excellent contact, but doesn't let the bad ones "sail past." So, very few walks.

This isn't a plus for an OBP hitter. Pierre has done pretty well at it, but there aren't many who succeed that way.

dougdirt
08-06-2012, 11:18 PM
The difficulty I have with your post is that, while I'm sure Torreyes makes contact with good pitches and fouls off many bad pitches, I see no evidence that he lets bad pitches "sail past." If he did, he would have more walks.

So, yes, you have a Juan Pierre type hitter who swings at many pitches, makes excellent contact, but doesn't let the bad ones "sail past." So, very few walks.

This isn't a plus for an OBP hitter. Pierre has done pretty well at it, but there aren't many who succeed that way.

There aren't many guys who can make that amount of contact either.

WVRedsFan
08-06-2012, 11:23 PM
Any guesses as to how long Volquez hangs around the majors?

Its the same song and dance with him. Tantalizing stuff but so so control and throws way too many pitches. I was wondering when the Reds faced him, if you kept your bat on your shoulder, would he throw 3 strikes before 4 balls?

If I had to guess, I'd say the Reds traded him because he was driving everyone in the organization crazy. He'll hang around because of his "stuff" for awhile, but any team that has him will understand why Texas and Cibcinnati got rid of him. My only regret is that we gave up something of value for him. Bet the Padres are thinking the same thing.

_Sir_Charles_
08-07-2012, 10:44 AM
The difficulty I have with your post is that, while I'm sure Torreyes makes contact with good pitches and fouls off many bad pitches, I see no evidence that he lets bad pitches "sail past." If he did, he would have more walks.

So, yes, you have a Juan Pierre type hitter who swings at many pitches, makes excellent contact, but doesn't let the bad ones "sail past." So, very few walks.

This isn't a plus for an OBP hitter. Pierre has done pretty well at it, but there aren't many who succeed that way.

And if he swings and misses at balls, he'd have more K's. The thing with him is that how often do you have an AB where not one ball is thrown in the zone? Not very often. Most guys swing and miss more and look at pitches in the zone more. He hits them. Simply put, he's not your average hitter. If his K's were high and his BB's were low, I'd be concerned. But they're not. Don't just look at the stats, because they'll deceive you in regards to him IMO. Listen to the scouts and THEN look at the stats. He's reported to have EXCELLENT plate discipline. So once you take that into account, the low walk rate coupled with the extraordinary contact skills...it's not very worrisome.

And he's not a typical OBP hitter. He has a high OBP because of his contact rate...not his walk rate. As long as you're not making outs, what's it matter HOW you get on base?

RedsManRick
08-07-2012, 11:39 AM
The difficulty I have with your post is that, while I'm sure Torreyes makes contact with good pitches and fouls off many bad pitches, I see no evidence that he lets bad pitches "sail past." If he did, he would have more walks.

So, yes, you have a Juan Pierre type hitter who swings at many pitches, makes excellent contact, but doesn't let the bad ones "sail past." So, very few walks.

This isn't a plus for an OBP hitter. Pierre has done pretty well at it, but there aren't many who succeed that way.

While I actually agree with your conclusion, I think you make a bad assumption along the way. If Torreyes is making contact almost every time he swings, how often is he going to get deep enough in to a count for accumulate 4 balls? He's not a power hitter, so it's not like guys are going to be pitching around him.

Just look at the guys with the highest walk rates. Almost to a man, they're guys who hit for a lot of power. Sure, you have a few guys at the extreme like Brett Gardner, Kosuke Fukudome and Bobby Abreu who take a ton of walks and don't hit for power. But they also strike out 2 or 3 times as much as Torreyes.

Back to your basic claim that Torreyes approach isn't a great one for an "OBP hitter". In some ways, you're right. But that's why we shouldn't consider him an "OBP hitter". Torreyes is a high average hitter, not a high OBP hitter. What's good about guys like that is that they don't rely on pitchers throwing the ball out of the zone to be successful. Of course, the downside is that they'll rarely put up a .400 OBP either. But that's not who they are.

I've seen the Juan Pierre comp a few times. It's not bad, but I think it's a bit of a red herring. Pierre has basically zero power. Torreyes isn't a guy who slaps the ball in to the ground and burns down the line. He's a liners-gap-to-gap type. To find better comps, I went to Fangraphs, exported a leaderboard of 2010-2012 with minimum 600 PA and filtered for everybody with less than 10% BBs and 10% Ks. Obviously Torreyes is much lower than that, but he is quite extreme. That gave me a list of 14 guys. I've sorted the list based on their combined BB% and K%. Look where Torreyes would show up.



Name BB% K% BB+K SB ISO AVG OBP SLG
Ronald Torreyes 5.7% 5.7% 10.4% 50 .134 .330 .387 .474
Juan Pierre 5.9% 5.9% 11.8% 122 .048 .283 .338 .332
Jeff Keppinger 6.6% 6.1% 12.7% 5 .105 .289 .339 .394
A.J. Pierzynski 4.3% 9.0% 13.3% 3 .153 .282 .320 .435
Vladimir Guerre 4.2% 9.4% 13.6% 6 .162 .295 .332 .457
Ben Revere 5.0% 8.7% 13.7% 61 .047 .289 .327 .336
Placido Polanco 6.3% 8.0% 14.3% 8 .075 .281 .329 .356
Aaron Miles 4.8% 9.8% 14.6% 4 .062 .277 .313 .339
Jose Reyes 7.0% 8.7% 15.7% 96 .149 .303 .352 .452
Carlos Lee 7.7% 8.7% 16.4% 9 .157 .268 .325 .424
Marco Scutaro 7.6% 9.0% 16.6% 16 .109 .282 .339 .390
Victor Martinez 7.6% 9.1% 16.7% 2 .165 .317 .366 .481
Yadier Molina 7.1% 9.6% 16.7% 23 .140 .293 .346 .433

But as I've argued, Torreyes isn't a slap hitter with no power, so I got rid of the guys with the very low ISOs (less than .070). Gone are Pierre, Revere and Miles.

Of course, he's also not a power hitter, so I got rid of the guys with the high ISOs (more than .150). Gone are Pierzynski, Vlad, Lee and Martinez.

That left a list of 5 guys:


Name BB% K% BB+K SB ISO AVG OBP SLG
Ronald Torreyes 5.7% 5.7% 10.4% 50 .134 .330 .387 .474
Jeff Keppinger 6.6% 6.1% 12.7% 5 .105 .289 .339 .394
Placido Polanco 6.3% 8.0% 14.3% 8 .075 .281 .329 .356
Jose Reyes 7.0% 8.7% 15.7% 96 .149 .303 .352 .452
Marco Scutaro 7.6% 9.0% 16.6% 16 .109 .282 .339 .390
Yadier Molina 7.1% 9.6% 16.7% 23 .140 .293 .346 .433

We know he's not a slow as Molina nor as fast at Reyes, but that's even more arbitrary than my ISO cuts, so let's leave them for now. That group, over the past 3 years, has producd an average batting line of .290/.340/.405.

Is that an all-star quality OBP threat? Nope. You're right, the Torreyes skill set & approach is a not a OBP stud combination. But it is something that would look really, really nice at the top of this lineup right now. If Torreyes turns out to be another Keppinger, Polanco or Scutaro, I'm not sure we'd openly fret over having lost him. But those are the kinds of guys who round out teams and add wins on the margins.

You're also right that not many players succeed using that approach. However, I would argue that the lack of players like that succeeding in the majors is not a function of it being an unproductive skill set. It's because it's a skill set that's rare. Very few players can put the bat on the ball as often as Ron Torreyes does and still have some pop when they do so. I'd be very interested to see if there are guys who put up BB% and K% below 8% and an ISO above .100 in the minors but who never panned out as major leaguers.

757690
08-07-2012, 11:48 AM
While I actually agree with your conclusion, I think you make a bad assumption along the way. If Torreyes is making contact almost every time he swings, how often is he going to get deep enough in to a count for accumulate 4 balls? He's not a power hitter, so it's not like guys are going to be pitching around him.

Just look at the guys with the highest walk rates. Almost to a man, they're guys who hit for a lot of power. Sure, you have a few guys at the extreme like Brett Gardner, Kosuke Fukudome and Bobby Abreu who take a ton of walks and don't hit for power. But they also strike out 2 or 3 times as much as Torreyes.

Back to your basic claim that Torreyes approach isn't a great one for an "OBP hitter". In some ways, you're right. But that's why we shouldn't consider him an "OBP hitter". Torreyes is a high average hitter, not a high OBP hitter. What's good about guys like that is that they don't rely on pitchers throwing the ball out of the zone to be successful. Of course, the downside is that they'll rarely up a .400 OBP either, but that's not who they are.

I've seen the Juan Pierre comp a few times. It's not bad, but I think it's a bit of a red herring. Pierre has basically zero power. Torreyes isn't a guy who slaps the ball in to the ground and burns down the line. He's a liners in to the gaps type. To find better comps, I went to Fangraphs, exported a leaderboard of 2010-2012 with minimum 600 PA and filtered for everybody with less than 10% BBs and 10% Ks. Obviously Torreyes is much lower than that, but he is quite extreme. That gave me a list of 14 guys. I've sorted the list based on their combined BB% and K%. Look where Torreyes would show up.



Name BB% K% BB+K SB ISO AVG OBP SLG
Ronald Torreyes 5.7% 5.7% 10.4% 50 .134 .330 .387 .474
Juan Pierre 5.9% 5.9% 11.8% 122 .048 .283 .338 .332
Jeff Keppinger 6.6% 6.1% 12.7% 5 .105 .289 .339 .394
A.J. Pierzynski 4.3% 9.0% 13.3% 3 .153 .282 .320 .435
Vladimir Guerre 4.2% 9.4% 13.6% 6 .162 .295 .332 .457
Ben Revere 5.0% 8.7% 13.7% 61 .047 .289 .327 .336
Placido Polanco 6.3% 8.0% 14.3% 8 .075 .281 .329 .356
Aaron Miles 4.8% 9.8% 14.6% 4 .062 .277 .313 .339
Jose Reyes 7.0% 8.7% 15.7% 96 .149 .303 .352 .452
Carlos Lee 7.7% 8.7% 16.4% 9 .157 .268 .325 .424
Marco Scutaro 7.6% 9.0% 16.6% 16 .109 .282 .339 .390
Victor Martinez 7.6% 9.1% 16.7% 2 .165 .317 .366 .481
Yadier Molina 7.1% 9.6% 16.7% 23 .140 .293 .346 .433

But as I've argued, Torreyes isn't a slap hitter with no power, so I got rid of the guys with the very low ISOs (less than .070). Gone are Pierre, Revere and Miles.

Of course, he's also not a power hitter, so I got rid of the guys with the high ISOs (more than .150). Gone are Pierzynski, Vlad, Lee and Martinez.

That left a list of 5 guys:


Name BB% K% BB+K SB ISO AVG OBP SLG
Ronald Torreyes 5.7% 5.7% 10.4% 50 .134 .330 .387 .474
Jeff Keppinger 6.6% 6.1% 12.7% 5 .105 .289 .339 .394
Placido Polanco 6.3% 8.0% 14.3% 8 .075 .281 .329 .356
Jose Reyes 7.0% 8.7% 15.7% 96 .149 .303 .352 .452
Marco Scutaro 7.6% 9.0% 16.6% 16 .109 .282 .339 .390
Yadier Molina 7.1% 9.6% 16.7% 23 .140 .293 .346 .433

We know he's not a slow as Molina nor as fast at Reyes, but that's even more arbitrary than my ISO cuts, so let's leave them for now. That group, over the past 3 years, has producd an average batting line of .290/.340/.405.

Is that an all-star quality OBP threat? Nope. You're right, the Torreyes skill set & approach is a not a OBP stud combination. But it is something that would look really, really nice at the top of this lineup right now. If Torreyes turns out to be another Keppinger, Polanco or Scutaro, I'm not sure we'd openly fret over having lost him. But those are the kinds of guys who round out teams and add wins on the margins.

You're also right that not many players succeed using that approach. However, I would argue that the lack of players like that succeeding in the majors is not a function of it being an unproductive skill set. It's because it's a skill set that's rare. Very few players can put the bat on the ball as often as Ron Torreyes does and still have some pop when they do so. I'd be very interested to see if there are guys who put up BB% and K% below 8% and an ISO above .100 in the minors but who never panned out as major leaguers.

Wow, all that work just for Ronald Torreyes, lol. Actually very impressive, and informative, I feel a lot smarter after reading this post. :thumbup:

lollipopcurve
08-07-2012, 02:59 PM
Wow, all that work just for Ronald Torreyes


I like the analysis by RMR too. Puts Torreyes in an interesting group. If I recall correctly, some of us were making the Placido comp last year or even before.
I remember they had Joe Morgan on one of the TV broadcasts several weeks ago, and I think they were talking about how Joe was small but he hit the ball hard -- Morgan then began talking about a trip he'd made to Dayton in 2011 and how there was a little guy there who hit the ball extremely hard. Of course, that was Torreyes. Just a cool player in many ways, and I'm still sorry they traded him (even though I recognize it was a good trade for the club).

Kc61
08-07-2012, 04:40 PM
I fundamentally disagree with some of the conclusions in the last several posts.

There is a lot of conjecture that Torreyes doesn't walk because he hits everything in the zone and that's why pitchers don't go deep in the count against him. I think it is equally likely that he swings at most pitches, good AND bad, makes contact and isn't patient enough to draw walks.

RMR says Torreyes is employing a "rare skill" of making contact without the walks and that Torreyes is a high average hitter rather than a high OBP hitter. True in the lower minor leagues. But this year, advanced to High A ball, after 396 PA, his skill set has resulted in a very ordinary BA of .271 with little power.

Which is not to say that I disagree that a player like Torreyes CAN succeed with a low walk rate. But IMO it requires a very, very, very proficient contact hitter to do so.
I still believe that Ron (as some call him) would be far better served to be more patient and draw more walks, a combo more likely to result in higher level success. Which was my original point.

Finally, comparing Torreyes work in the lowest minor leagues to major league hitters does serve to show that some players have succeeded with this skill set, which I don't doubt. But it does not show that Torreyes is LIKELY to succeed with that skill set at higher levels. He may, we'll see, but the odds would be better if he expanded his repertoire to include walks.

dougdirt
08-07-2012, 05:00 PM
Not many people hit for power in the Florida State League. I don't know how many times that needs to be repeated. Top it off with the fact that he is the second youngest player in the league and only one of two teenagers and are we really going to be worried about the fact that he is only a little bit better than league average right now despite a low BABIP?

Kc61
08-07-2012, 05:07 PM
Not many people hit for power in the Florida State League. I don't know how many times that needs to be repeated. Top it off with the fact that he is the second youngest player in the league and only one of two teenagers and are we really going to be worried about the fact that he is only a little bit better than league average right now despite a low BABIP?

All I'm saying is the guy should try and walk more.

dougdirt
08-07-2012, 05:09 PM
All I'm saying is the guy should try and walk more.

No he shouldn't. Trying to walk means taking hittable pitches. That is a bad idea. Hits > walks. If he isn't out there swinging at non-strikes, and from what I saw of him last year, he wasn't, then he shouldn't go to the plate thinking about taking pitches. You don't take pitches just to take them. It is a bad hitting philosophy.

RedsManRick
08-07-2012, 07:07 PM
I fundamentally disagree with some of the conclusions in the last several posts.

There is a lot of conjecture that Torreyes doesn't walk because he hits everything in the zone and that's why pitchers don't go deep in the count against him. I think it is equally likely that he swings at most pitches, good AND bad, makes contact and isn't patient enough to draw walks.

RMR says Torreyes is employing a "rare skill" of making contact without the walks and that Torreyes is a high average hitter rather than a high OBP hitter. True in the lower minor leagues. But this year, advanced to High A ball, after 396 PA, his skill set has resulted in a very ordinary BA of .271 with little power.

When we're talking about batting average, 396 PA is a small sample. His 2012 batting average is functionally useless as an input to this conversation.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=17659

Yes, his BABIP is low this year. It is low either because he's making weaker contact, because of random variation with where his batted balls have gone or because of the performance of the fielders he's played against. We have no way of determining which of those is the case and it's probably some combination thereof. We certainly cannot assume it's the first of the three and, even then, we don't have reason to believe that's a skill issue instead of a performance one.



Finally, comparing Torreyes work in the lowest minor leagues to major league hitters does serve to show that some players have succeeded with this skill set, which I don't doubt. But it does not show that Torreyes is LIKELY to succeed with that skill set at higher levels. He may, we'll see, but the odds would be better if he expanded his repertoire to include walks.

You're right. It doesn't. And if somehow I implied that low minors success is the same thing as major league success, my bad. I fully admit that what I showed says nothing about his likelihood of becoming a successful major leaguer -- hence my interest in looking at a sample of comparable minor leaguers.

However, your claim that he would be more successful if he expanded his repertoire to include more walks is simultaneous self-evident (walks > outs) and completely unhelpful. It's like asserting Adam Dunn would be more productive if he hit for a higher batting average. It's only true if we assume that nothing else changes. Unfortunately, his performance outcomes are the result of a complex interaction of skills. Change one thing and there are ripples. That is if you can actually change the thing substantially in the first place.

So he doesn't walk much. Why is that? One of two things is happening -- he's either swinging at pitches out of the zone and putting them in play (we know he's not striking out) or he's not seeing very much pitches out of the zone in the first place.

Part of the reason the guys who walk a lot are the guys who strike out a lot is because both involve not putting the ball in play for at least 3 pitches. If you are exceptionally skilled at putting the ball in play, you're not going to have much opportunity to watch 4 pitches out of the strike zone. Add on a lack of power and pitchers aren't inclined to purposefully throw out of the zone. It's a recipe for very few opportunities to take a walk.

Of course, it's quite possible he's been chasing stuff out of the zone. But his career BABIP suggests he generally makes solid contact. If the suggestion is that he trades solid contact for a ball, I'd object. If it's that he should be trading weak contact for a ball (especially early in the count), I'd agree -- and ask for the evidence that he's expanding his zone and making weak contact.

I'm 100% behind taking more walks if they're there for the taking. But I don't think this is a Brandon-Phillips-chasing-sliders kind of thing. And it's certainly not a Drew-Stubbs-swinging-through-meatballs thing.

If Torreyes is able to sustain his incredibly low K% while hitting for a modicum of power (unlike Pierre or Miles), I have a hard time seeing how he's not a major league contributor. For reference, 88% of his plate appearances end in a ball play. Let's give him 1 HR per 100 PA (less than he's hit so far). Given a 6% walk rate, a .300 BABIP on that produces a .288 batting average and a .331 OBP. Add on a 100 ISO and you've got a .288/.331/.388 line from your middle infielder. Give him average defense and that's a 3-win player (see Jason Kipnis).

And for reference, of the guys who struck out less than 10% of the time in the 2010-2012 sample, only 1 guy walked more than he struck out. Jeff Keppinger with a 6.6 BB% and 6.1 K%. It just doesn't happen. Sure, you do get the guys who maintain parity (Pujols, Kinsler, Mauer, Pedroia, Utley) -- but those guys hit for more power than Torreyes.

IslandRed
08-07-2012, 07:14 PM
No he shouldn't. Trying to walk means taking hittable pitches. That is a bad idea. Hits > walks. If he isn't out there swinging at non-strikes, and from what I saw of him last year, he wasn't, then he shouldn't go to the plate thinking about taking pitches. You don't take pitches just to take them. It is a bad hitting philosophy.

I'm all for "hit your pitch when it comes," but not all strikes are equally hittable, and just because a guy can put the bat on the ball doesn't mean it's the right pitch to swing at. He'll need to be more selective on stuff in the zone as he moves up, or he's going to spend a lot of time getting himself out on pitcher's pitches. But he still has plenty of time to refine that.

dougdirt
08-07-2012, 07:57 PM
I'm all for "hit your pitch when it comes," but not all strikes are equally hittable, and just because a guy can put the bat on the ball doesn't mean it's the right pitch to swing at. He'll need to be more selective on stuff in the zone as he moves up, or he's going to spend a lot of time getting himself out on pitcher's pitches. But he still has plenty of time to refine that.

Very few pitchers, even in the Majors, can throw a 'pitchers pitch' within the strikezone.

IslandRed
08-07-2012, 08:30 PM
Very few pitchers, even in the Majors, can throw a 'pitchers pitch' within the strikezone.

I'm not interested in turning this into a lingo debate, so if I used the wrong term, fine, my apologies. I'm not talking about perfect pitches. I'm talking about good, solid, non-meatball strikes. The ones a pitcher needs to throw frequently if he's going to succeed in the major leagues.

_Sir_Charles_
08-07-2012, 09:11 PM
I fundamentally disagree with some of the conclusions in the last several posts.

There is a lot of conjecture that Torreyes doesn't walk because he hits everything in the zone and that's why pitchers don't go deep in the count against him. I think it is equally likely that he swings at most pitches, good AND bad, makes contact and isn't patient enough to draw walks.

RMR says Torreyes is employing a "rare skill" of making contact without the walks and that Torreyes is a high average hitter rather than a high OBP hitter. True in the lower minor leagues. But this year, advanced to High A ball, after 396 PA, his skill set has resulted in a very ordinary BA of .271 with little power.

Which is not to say that I disagree that a player like Torreyes CAN succeed with a low walk rate. But IMO it requires a very, very, very proficient contact hitter to do so.
I still believe that Ron (as some call him) would be far better served to be more patient and draw more walks, a combo more likely to result in higher level success. Which was my original point.

Finally, comparing Torreyes work in the lowest minor leagues to major league hitters does serve to show that some players have succeeded with this skill set, which I don't doubt. But it does not show that Torreyes is LIKELY to succeed with that skill set at higher levels. He may, we'll see, but the odds would be better if he expanded his repertoire to include walks.

Players CAN slump KC. Torreyes' first half was poor. There's no doubt about that. But he's adjusted and his production thus far in the second half isn't remarkable...it's back to his norm. But for the first half there are several things that could rather easily explain those struggles.

1. Adjusting to a new, higher level. Many players struggle when they first get bumped up. And in Torreyes' case, to a difficult hitters' league.

2. Poor luck. As Doug pointed out, his first half babip was VERY far below his norm. And a player like Torreyes, a poor babip will affect him more than most I'd think.

3. New franchise. They could have him trying new things with new coaches. That's not uncommon. It's all about making adjustments.

I'm sure there are even more possibilities, but those were the main ones to pop into my head. I was very sad to see him go as he was my favorite prospect at the time of the deal...by far. I hate the fact that he gets kind of pushed aside as a legitimate prospect due to his size. All he's done is field, run and hit...well. Other than lacking the longball...simply put, I've yet to see a hole in that kids game. I hope the Cubs have no clue what they've got and we snag him back...but I don't think my luck's that good.

_Sir_Charles_
08-07-2012, 09:16 PM
No he shouldn't. Trying to walk means taking hittable pitches. That is a bad idea. Hits > walks. If he isn't out there swinging at non-strikes, and from what I saw of him last year, he wasn't, then he shouldn't go to the plate thinking about taking pitches. You don't take pitches just to take them. It is a bad hitting philosophy.

THANK YOU. It's always bugged the heck out of me when someone says he should try to take more walks. I don't want that, I want good pitch recognition and plate discipline. If you have those, you don't swing at balls and you don't let strikes sail past. If the walks come when you do that, fine. But don't let strikes fly past in an attempt to take a free pass. This is something that gets misunderstood when Dusty says it. He wants his hitters to be aggressive IN THE ZONE. He doesn't hate walks, he hates seeing his guys not swing at strikes.

IslandRed
08-07-2012, 09:54 PM
THANK YOU. It's always bugged the heck out of me when someone says he should try to take more walks. I don't want that, I want good pitch recognition and plate discipline. If you have those, you don't swing at balls and you don't let strikes sail past. If the walks come when you do that, fine. But don't let strikes fly past in an attempt to take a free pass. This is something that gets misunderstood when Dusty says it. He wants his hitters to be aggressive IN THE ZONE. He doesn't hate walks, he hates seeing his guys not swing at strikes.

It's not about "try to take more walks"; that's jumbling process and outcome. Dusty's philosophy is the same balanced approach good hitters have used for as long as baseball's been around, you're right -- except that I don't believe he means for his players to swing at EVERY strike. A strike does not automatically equate to a good pitch to hit, especially against major-league pitching, and strike-zone judgment and plate discipline are not exactly the same thing.

Homer Bailey
08-08-2012, 12:40 AM
Very few pitchers, even in the Majors, can throw a 'pitchers pitch' within the strikezone.

Logan Ondrusek can. At least that's what I've been told by some on here.

Kc61
08-08-2012, 09:52 AM
THANK YOU. It's always bugged the heck out of me when someone says he should try to take more walks. I don't want that, I want good pitch recognition and plate discipline. .

I guess, then, that I bugged the heck out of you.

But obviously what I meant was that a hitter like Torreyes should be as patient as possible because, as a non-power hitter, getting walks is a positive outcome. It shouldn't be the primary objective, but it shouldn't be precluded by swinging away at any pitch, any time.

I'm finished discussing Torreyes and his patience or lack thereof. As he goes up the ladder, it would be good if he exhibited some patience at the plate IMO. I'm on to other things.

_Sir_Charles_
08-08-2012, 12:08 PM
I guess, then, that I bugged the heck out of you.

But obviously what I meant was that a hitter like Torreyes should be as patient as possible because, as a non-power hitter, getting walks is a positive outcome. It shouldn't be the primary objective, but it shouldn't be precluded by swinging away at any pitch, any time.

I'm finished discussing Torreyes and his patience or lack thereof. As he goes up the ladder, it would be good if he exhibited some patience at the plate IMO. I'm on to other things.

LOL. No, that wasn't directed at you (or in reference to Torreyes either), just a general thing that bugs me. "Trying" to take a walk implies that you're looking to NOT get a hit.

Vottomatic
08-30-2012, 05:54 PM
Update 8-30-12:

Ronald Torreyes - .264, 6 HR's, 5 TR, 22 Doubles, 112 games

Dave Sappelt - .268, 7 HR's, 4 TR, 26 doubles, 15 SB, 132 games

Travis Wood - triple A - 3-3, 4.57 e.r.a., 39 K's, 41 IP
- Cubs - 4-11, 4.71 e.r.a., 84 K's, 114 IP

Juan Francisco - Braves - 181 at-bats, .250, 9 HR's, 56 K's

Brad Boxberger - triple A Padres - 2.76 e.r.a.
- Padres - 3.52, 15 IP, 16 hits, 20 K's, 13 BB's, 2 HR's

Yasmani Grandal - Padres - 33 games, 6 HR, 22 rbi, .283, .888 OPs

Yonder Alonso - Padres - 125 games, .276, 7 HR's, .741 OPs

Edison Volquez - Padres - 9-9, 4.10, 150 K's, 155 IP, 91 BB's

Paul Janish - Braves - 43 games, .197, .512 OPs, 1 error

Donnie Joseph - KC triple A - 4.85 e.r.a., 13 IP, 13 hits, 15 K's, 11 BB's, 1.84 WHIP (geez)

JC Sulbaran - KC double A - 0-3, 9.95 e.r.a., 2.37 WHIP (geez again)

Chris Dickerson - NYY triple A - .321, .944 OPS, 68 games

Adam Rosales - Oak triple A - .280 in 76 games
- Oakland - .234 in 76 plate appearances

Jeremy Horst - Phi triple A - 2.11 e.r.a.
- Phillies - 0.92 e.r.a. in 19 IP

Jonny Gomes - Oak A's - 78 games, .248, .837 OPS, 15 HR's

Edwin Encarnacion - .287, 34 HR's, .946 OPS

Zach Stewart - CWS - 1-2, 6.00 e.r.a., 30 IP, 41 hits, 10 HR's
Boston - 0-1, 27.00 e.r.a., 3 IP, 10 hits, 9 ER, 2 HR's (geez)

Josh Roenicke - Rockies - 51 games, 2.83 e.r.a., 76 IP, 70 hits

Kc61
08-30-2012, 08:34 PM
Glad to see Roenicke doing so well. He was a favorite of mine with the Reds, although at some point it became clear he was trade bait. Roenicke was touted as a closer type, but has developed into a multi-inning middle reliever.

Given the Rockies pitching this year, an innings eating reliever will get a bit of work. Josh taking advantage of the opportunity.

WebScorpion
08-31-2012, 02:38 AM
LOL. No, that wasn't directed at you (or in reference to Torreyes either), just a general thing that bugs me. "Trying" to take a walk implies that you're looking to NOT get a hit.A great leadoff hitter knows how to 'lean into' a few pitches. Also, most major league hitters go to the plate with a plan (i.e., looking for something middle-in, sitting on a fastball, etc.) and often times that plan means taking an early strike if it's not 'your' pitch. Usually the plan changes when you get two strikes (or sometimes with just one) to include the strike zone and anything close enough to be called a strike. That doesn't mean he's trying to walk, just that he's more likely to walk than a guy who swings at anything that looks close from the beginning of the at bat. My http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-forum/2c.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

oneupper
08-31-2012, 07:31 AM
Glad to see Roenicke doing so well. He was a favorite of mine with the Reds, although at some point it became clear he was trade bait. Roenicke was touted as a closer type, but has developed into a multi-inning middle reliever.

Given the Rockies pitching this year, an innings eating reliever will get a bit of work. Josh taking advantage of the opportunity.

Some pitchers seem to be able to make it work out there. Matt Belisle is another ex-Red who has thrived in the rarified air.
(Numbers aside, he's making $3.8 mm this year...that's thriving)

dfs
08-31-2012, 10:45 AM
Update 8-30-12:


It has to be done....

Chris Denorfia...San Diego 291/348/444 in 300 plate appearances playing centerfield.

and

Adam Dunn Chicago 204/335/484 with 38 homers/92 BB and 188 K's.


Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Scrap Irony
09-01-2012, 01:17 AM
Years ago, as Chris Denorfia was coming through the Red minor league pipeline, I insisted he's be a more than serviceable major league player, a likely league average or better bat that would play CF.

Injuries derailed his career, but, eventually, he's carved a very, very nice career for himself in San Diego. Love guys like that get just about everything out of their natural talent by working hard, hustling, and having a high baseball IQ.