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OnBaseMachine
03-19-2012, 03:42 PM
This sounds encouraging to me. From Jon Heyman:


One obvious reason Votto, who hit .309 with 29 home runs, 110 RBI and a league-leading .415 on-base percentage in 2011, is hoping Pujols and Fielder show they are worthy of those mega deals is that he hopes to follow their lead. That goes for the contract. But it doesn't necessarily mean Votto sees himself leaving Cincinnati. Although he said the Reds haven't approached him yet about a new deal, his heart seems to be in Cincinnati.

"I'm very proud I'm with the Reds,'' Votto said at one point.

When asked if he'd like to stay, he answered, "I definitely do."



http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/17901906/superstar-joey-votto-expresses-fondness-for-both-the-reds--very-long-deals

kaldaniels
03-19-2012, 03:53 PM
Well that's great news.

Though I'm disappointed Joey couldn't come up with something more mysterious and insightful than "I definitely do".

WildcatFan
03-19-2012, 04:09 PM
"It would be tough for a [top] position player to sign for five years. No matter how fond a person is of the city, players have to maximize the number of years,"Votto said.

The thoughtful star explained that the best players should prioritize the length of the contract when they are in their prime because "teams aren't anxious to sign players who are 35 or 36 anymore.''

Reading too much into a quote alert:

It sounds like Joey is more concerned with job security than dollar amounts. Maybe he's a guy who would be happier with nine years, $18 million per than six years, $24 million per. The problem, obviously, is that somebody may offer him the best of both those worlds. Mostly I'm just trying to make myself feel better. Anyway, nice article.

Scrap Irony
03-19-2012, 04:26 PM
Well that's great news.

Though I'm disappointed Joey couldn't come up with something more mysterious and insightful than "I definitely do".

*Snicker*

MikeS21
03-19-2012, 04:41 PM
I have been as vocal as anyone about the fact that Votto has specifically avoided such definite positive statements about wanting to stay.

Would love to see a few more of these type quotes from him.

757690
03-19-2012, 04:46 PM
The best way for the Reds to keep Votto is to make the playoffs the next two years.

redsfan30
03-19-2012, 05:03 PM
If he is willing to trade a few million for a couple more years, I think this deal gets done.

lollipopcurve
03-19-2012, 05:14 PM
Far more optimistic about this than I was. Will still be a big-time financial stretch, as JV won't give the team much of a discount.

If they manage to extend him, Votto could conceivably rank first in Reds history in a few offensive categories. Would love to see it happen.

RedlegJake
03-19-2012, 07:37 PM
If he will take a deal that just skirts the 20 million mark and is 6-7 years in length I'd be willing to bet a deal gets done. If he has to have more than that I don't think he stays. Its just my gut feeling but I'll bet 20-21 or 22 million (a bit higher than 20 if its a shorter term than 5/6 years, a bit less or right at the mark if its longer) is about the ceiling for the Reds. I'll be shocked if they go beyond that, and worried, too, if they can produce enough of a team around a salary any larger than that for one player, unless, of course, some revenue source is enlarged that the Reds don't have right now. I think the Reds can compete near the top level of deals but no way can they if Joey insists on a deal at or near the very pinnacle money-wise. Every player though does have a point where it is enough money-wise, where the contract becomes more about security, conditions, familiarity, competitiveness etc. I can't really criticize Votto if he goes for the max money because he is "the man" for an extended family since his father died. OTOH, I sure hope the Reds can get in his ballpark with an offer and win enough to make him want to stay.

corkedbat
03-19-2012, 11:37 PM
Far more optimistic about this than I was. Will still be a big-time financial stretch, as JV won't give the team much of a discount.

If they manage to extend him, Votto could conceivably rank first in Reds history in a few offensive categories. Would love to see it happen.

Me too. This is the first time I've seen Joey actually come out and say he wants to be here and I hope he is. I still think it will be hard to keep him because of the pressure his contract will put on the salary structure. The Reds really need to put some serious effort into shoring up the farm system and acquiring top young talent.

If he does stay, it is going to be very expensive to have Votto, Bruce, Latos, Cueto and possibly Chapman. They'll need a lot of top young talent around them to compete (either that or grow the payroll swell-North of $100M in the next three or four years).

WebScorpion
03-20-2012, 12:05 AM
Joey is not a guy who I'd have a problem extending into his later years. I think he takes really good care of himself and he's super athletic for a first baseman...also, first base is not normally a position that grinds a player down. :thumbup:

jojo
03-20-2012, 01:10 AM
Nine years/$214M to ten years/$240M....that's Fielder/Pujols territory. That's territory the Reds have never ventured into....

Caveat Emperor
03-20-2012, 02:20 AM
Unless the Reds are going to move payroll north of $100M, it's hard to see the Reds paying Votto $20M per.

RedsManRick
03-20-2012, 02:36 AM
I think I'm one of the crazy people who would probably trade Votto after this year of mid 2013 if a sufficiently attractive package (Teixeira-like) was available. I love the guy, but I don't want 25% of our payroll tied up in any one player who is a significant risk to underperform that contract for multiple years.

Joey is right to pursue his mega deal in to his late 30's. But I don't want the Reds to be on the hook for it. It's not that far of a fall at all to hitting .280/.360/.480 with below average defense -- and that's not something you should be paying big bucks for.

GAC
03-20-2012, 06:22 AM
I love the guy, but I don't want 25% of our payroll tied up in any one player who is a significant risk to underperform that contract for multiple years.

I'm right there with you on this. I don't begrudge the guy one bit if he is pursing that huge mega deal. He says he'd like to stay in Cincinnati (most ballplayers say that in like situations). But he has to understand that he's not only pricing himself out of town, but making it very difficult for the team to retain (or acquire) those quality players - it's more then just one guy - that comprises a winning team.

I've been very impressed with the direction of this organization over the last several years in improving their scouting, farm system, and player development. And one of the reasons organizations do that is to better prepare themselves for that inevitable day when players, like a Votto, price themselves out of the organization.

Yes it will hurt; but IMO it's not the end of the world, if Votto moves elsewhere. We shall overcome. ;)

RedFanAlways1966
03-20-2012, 08:20 AM
Sign me up with Rick and GAC. I am not at all in favor of tying up a good % of total payroll at 1st base... esp. later in the player's career when the gaudy numbers will be declining.

Chip R
03-20-2012, 10:10 AM
Nine years/$214M to ten years/$240M....that's Fielder/Pujols territory. That's territory the Reds have never ventured into....

That's territory a lot of teams haven't ventured into.

CySeymour
03-20-2012, 10:13 AM
Yes it will hurt; but IMO it's not the end of the world, if Votto moves elsewhere. We shall overcome. ;)

I think I lean more this way as well. Same with Phillips. The Reds aren't a team that can afford to pay top dollar for a players decline years.

Ghosts of 1990
03-20-2012, 10:18 AM
He's not coming back to Cincinnati when his contract is up. Please, dig up this thread when free agency hits in two seasons and remember the guessing game that was saved. Per someone I know with the organization he has no interest in returning to Cincinnati "even if they had the amount to pay him" is what I was told. I won't get into anymore details than that, and as a long-time poster on this site I would hope that I would at least be trusted that I am not just blowing smoke to blow smoke (I would love if he signed a lifetime deal to play 1b in Cincinnati).

This person I spoke to is a family member of a minority owner with the club. Just passing along--feel free to flame away. Just thought I would share with the group.

Mario-Rijo
03-20-2012, 10:33 AM
I'm opposed to losing Votto at all for any reason and definitely not willing to deal him unless he comes right out and says he wants to go. This will be the straw that broke the camels back for me if they show even the slightest appearance of not being 100% committed to keeping him. If he walks it's on him and not the organization. So we get 2 picks that have a little shot of ever being worth it as opposed to a package of 3 or 4 that have a bit more chance, what's the odds either way works out. I'll take that chance if it means giving off the proper appearance. Should the Cards have dealt Pujols, imagine that backlash against their FO as opposed to the backlash against Pujols.

jojo
03-20-2012, 10:40 AM
This is all hypothetical but if the Reds knew for certain he wasn't going to sign with them and Toronto would empty their farm to trade for him, I think the Reds would have to trade him.

Ghosts of 1990
03-20-2012, 10:46 AM
This is all hypothetical but if the Reds knew for certain he wasn't going to sign with them and Toronto would empty their farm to trade for him, I think the Reds would have to trade him.


I think those rumors of Votto for Bautista last season were true, I think it was being discussed but fell apart late.

RedsManRick
03-20-2012, 01:13 PM
It's interesting that Votto will hit the market after his age 29 season -- right between Fielder (age 27) and Pujols (age 31). Fielder got 9 years, but that's in large part to his being relatively young. His deal takes him through his age 36 season. By contrast, Pujols got 10 years that takes him through age 41.

That's a big 5 year gap in terms of what happens to production and it's precisely those years that will be the crux of the debate for Votto. Assuming he continues to produce for the next 2 yeras, I don't think anybody would have a problem paying him $20MM+ from age 30 to 35. It's 36 onward that's the question.

If Votto wants his age 36-?? years covered in his next contract, I can't see that happening in Cincinnati.

757690
03-20-2012, 01:15 PM
This is all hypothetical but if the Reds knew for certain he wasn't going to sign with them and Toronto would empty their farm to trade for him, I think the Reds would have to trade him.

Not necessarily. Two years of Votto can be worth far more than five years of a group of prospects, especially if the Reds make the playoff both of those years.

Do you regret the M's not trading A-Rod? They were good when he was there, and good after he left, and all they got were draft picks for him.

Also, if the Reds were sure he would leave, wouldn't the Jays as well, which would mean there's no need for them to offer their top prospects.

jojo
03-20-2012, 06:53 PM
Not necessarily. Two years of Votto can be worth far more than five years of a group of prospects, especially if the Reds make the playoff both of those years.

Do you regret the M's not trading A-Rod? They were good when he was there, and good after he left, and all they got were draft picks for him.

Also, if the Reds were sure he would leave, wouldn't the Jays as well, which would mean there's no need for them to offer their top prospects.

I think the assumption would be that Toronto is his desired location.

The Reds really seem to be leveraging Votto's final two years of control with their off season moves. If this season starts poorly and Toronto comes at them with a ton of major league ready or near ready talent, the Reds would almost have to pounce rather than hold on to Votto and hope 2013 would be a playoff year-potentially revamping for another 5 years with a cache of young talent to go with the young core already on the roster or bank it all on 2013?

Concerning AROD, the Ms were trying in earnest to resign him. That's a different situation than knowing they wouldn't be able to sign him regardless.

GAC
03-21-2012, 06:46 AM
I'm opposed to losing Votto at all for any reason and definitely not willing to deal him unless he comes right out and says he wants to go. This will be the straw that broke the camels back for me if they show even the slightest appearance of not being 100% committed to keeping him. If he walks it's on him and not the organization. So we get 2 picks that have a little shot of ever being worth it as opposed to a package of 3 or 4 that have a bit more chance, what's the odds either way works out. I'll take that chance if it means giving off the proper appearance. Should the Cards have dealt Pujols, imagine that backlash against their FO as opposed to the backlash against Pujols.

I think this organization is 100% committed to wanting to keep Votto (for whatever that's worth). But how far do you take (or define) that 100% commitment? There are two variables that are out of their control for the most part: 1) IF the guy is not committed to the organization (wants to play elsewhere), and/or 2) His salary (contract) demand - which again, he has every right to pursue - is not only something this organization cannot afford, due to payroll limitations, but greatly hinders them in various other areas.

So what happens, hypothetically, if we were able to retain a Votto with a contract somewhere in the range of Pujols/Fielder; but that in turn causes (forces) this organization to cut costs elsewhere (pull back) and lose various other important players to this team, or prevents them from spending the monies to acquire (fill) needs, and all for the sake of ONE player?

A Votto or Pujols or Fielder are not the first, nor the last, player to price themselves out of a market like Cincinnati, or Milwaukee, or even a St Louis for that matter. IMO, that's one of the problems with baseball. The overall market may set (dictate) salaries/contracts, but a vast majority of organizations anymore, and from a payroll standpoint, can't participate in that bidding war.

Raisor
03-21-2012, 07:25 PM
He's not coming back to Cincinnati when his contract is up. Please, dig up this thread when free agency hits in two seasons and remember the guessing game that was saved. Per someone I know with the organization he has no interest in returning to Cincinnati "even if they had the amount to pay him" is what I was told. I won't get into anymore details than that, and as a long-time poster on this site I would hope that I would at least be trusted that I am not just blowing smoke to blow smoke (I would love if he signed a lifetime deal to play 1b in Cincinnati).

This person I spoke to is a family member of a minority owner with the club. Just passing along--feel free to flame away. Just thought I would share with the group.


is this the same guy that told you that Joey likes fancy clothes and fancy coffee?

defender
03-21-2012, 08:35 PM
It's interesting that Votto will hit the market after his age 29 season -- right between Fielder (age 27) and Pujols (age 31). Fielder got 9 years, but that's in large part to his being relatively young. His deal takes him through his age 36 season. By contrast, Pujols got 10 years that takes him through age 41.

That's a big 5 year gap in terms of what happens to production and it's precisely those years that will be the crux of the debate for Votto. Assuming he continues to produce for the next 2 yeras, I don't think anybody would have a problem paying him $20MM+ from age 30 to 35. It's 36 onward that's the question.

If Votto wants his age 36-?? years covered in his next contract, I can't see that happening in Cincinnati.

He clearly wants at least 36 & 37 covered. If the Reds know they are not going more than 5 or 6 years, then they have to assume Votto will leave. The only Variable, is how well he hits the next 2 years.

If Votto puts up 2010 like numbers, I would not be worried about the Reds giving him an 8 or even 9 year deal. I would expect more production from 36-38 Votto than 34-36 Fielder or 39-41 Pujols.

Ghosts of 1990
03-21-2012, 09:49 PM
is this the same guy that told you that Joey likes fancy clothes and fancy coffee?

Haha, it is not. Though he did offer another nugget that I will include.

When I asked why it was so confirmed in the organization's mind that Votto's gone, he said that his family member who is a minority owner said the following:

"Cincinnati is too conservative of a town for Joey Votto."

Not sure why he said it or what it really means. Take it FWIW.

Tony Cloninger
03-22-2012, 11:15 AM
Haha, it is not. Though he did offer another nugget that I will include.

When I asked why it was so confirmed in the organization's mind that Votto's gone, he said that his family member who is a minority owner said the following:

"Cincinnati is too conservative of a town for Joey Votto."

Not sure why he said it or what it really means. Take it FWIW.



Sounds like you want to make him out to be one of them their......Liberal Democratics? :)

Cincy could be considered too conservative for some middle of the road conservatives.....so I really don't know what that guy is trying to say.

I guess Latos will not be here after his 4 years either then? He does not look too conservative.

I(heart)Freel
03-22-2012, 04:02 PM
The undertone of the "all in" nature for this FO this off-season is all about Joey.

If the Reds make the playoffs and make some extra cash, that will be used next off-season to entice Joey into a LTC. If he turns it down after some negotiations, then I think they start entertaining offers.

Equally, I think if the Reds miss the playoffs this season, then they know they don't have the extra money to sign Joey and start entertaining offers.

My only hope is that Joey gets sick of the contract question enough this year to be motivated to do a deal. You simply can't imagine that he would enjoy being under the microscope for a full year.

That more than anything might actually get a Reds deal done.

MikeS21
03-22-2012, 04:59 PM
Haha, it is not. Though he did offer another nugget that I will include.

When I asked why it was so confirmed in the organization's mind that Votto's gone, he said that his family member who is a minority owner said the following:

"Cincinnati is too conservative of a town for Joey Votto."

Not sure why he said it or what it really means. Take it FWIW.
Unfortunately, this is probably closer to the truth than what anyone realizes.

I don't think Votto would stay under ANY circumstances - even if the Reds win the next two World Series. It's not about the organization, the FO, the owner, or any of the myriad of in-house excuses we blame for players passing on playing for the Reds.

Joey Votto does not strike me as a guy who is comfortable in a place like Cincinnati. Sean Casey fit in (of course, Casey fit in almost anywhere!). But I don't see that in Votto.

Someone mentioned Latos. I think he will be gone the first chance he gets. He is more of a "coastal" personality. It will be interesting watching he and his wife in this stuff shirt part of the country. I'd say he will wind up back in Southern California, or someplace like Boston.

I have been surprised that Bronson Arroyo has stuck it out as long as he has. I always pegged him as running away from Cincinnati just as fast as he could as soon as he could.

I still think the wise thing is to trade Votto and get the best trade value that you can for him,and move on. All it will take is Votto getting a pulled hamstring, or getting hit in hand by a 95 mph fastball, and the "go-for-it" is over.

Caveat Emperor
03-22-2012, 05:30 PM
Most players live out of a suitcase when the baseball season is on-going. In most cases, they're a Cincinnati resident for 4-14 day stretches over the course of 6 months. When the winter hits, it's back to wherever it is they want to live.

And for all Cincinnati's reputation as a conservative/uptight town, it's also an incredibly laid-back environment compared to most places. The local media doesn't get in anyone's face or try to rock the boat, the people are so reserved that no one is ever at risk for getting mobbed in public, and it's fairly easy to live anonymously in town even as a big-time athlete.

It's an environment that can have some appeal.

jojo
03-22-2012, 05:36 PM
Most players live out of a suitcase when the baseball season is on-going. In most cases, they're a Cincinnati resident for 4-14 day stretches over the course of 6 months. When the winter hits, it's back to wherever it is they want to live.

And for all Cincinnati's reputation as a conservative/uptight town, it's also an incredibly laid-back environment compared to most places. The local media doesn't get in anyone's face or try to rock the boat, the people are so reserved that no one is ever at risk for getting mobbed in public, and it's fairly easy to live anonymously in town even as a big-time athlete.

It's an environment that can have some appeal.

I guess (assuming the conservative thing was true), I interpretted it to mean he prefers Canada to the American Midwest.

RedsManRick
03-22-2012, 07:50 PM
Unfortunately, this is probably closer to the truth than what anyone realizes.

I don't think Votto would stay under ANY circumstances - even if the Reds win the next two World Series. It's not about the organization, the FO, the owner, or any of the myriad of in-house excuses we blame for players passing on playing for the Reds.

Agreed. Obviously players tend to follow the biggest paycheck, but I do think they tell their agents "at the end of the day, here's the list of places I'd like to go".

Suffice it to say, I don't think Cincinnati is high on most players' list. The Scott Rolen's are in the minority.

I(heart)Freel
03-23-2012, 12:35 PM
I know plenty of "coastal" types who have moved here for work who say the conservative thing is over-played.

Get a shiny new pad downtown, find the young, mobile, single set and you can make Cincinnati out to be a nice little party town. For Reds players, it's only for small stretches at a time, as Caveat pointed out.

Aside from a little moped incident, Deion Sanders took to this town. Need I say more?

Johnny Footstool
03-23-2012, 12:48 PM
I still think the wise thing is to trade Votto and get the best trade value that you can for him,and move on. All it will take is Votto getting a pulled hamstring, or getting hit in hand by a 95 mph fastball, and the "go-for-it" is over.

I really don't like the "what if" mentality. It stifles progress.

Play to win. Take some chances. If worse comes to worst, BCast can sell the franchise for a few hundred million more than he paid for it.

MikeS21
03-23-2012, 01:02 PM
I know plenty of "coastal" types who have moved here for work who say the conservative thing is over-played.

Get a shiny new pad downtown, find the young, mobile, single set and you can make Cincinnati out to be a nice little party town. For Reds players, it's only for small stretches at a time, as Caveat pointed out.

Aside from a little moped incident, Deion Sanders took to this town. Need I say more?
I think its a little more complicated than that. It could be a combination of things that might cause Votto to want to play elsewhere.

It is just that in Cincinnati pro sports - whether it be the Reds or the Bengals - fans just naturally assume that if a player passes on playing here, that it has to be the owner/organization's fault. Team management is "too cheap." IMO, it goes beyond money. It can be anything from weather, to family situations, to any host of other reasons that have nothing to do with the organization.

Most assumptions are that Joey Votto has strong ties to his family, and wants to be closer to home in Canada. That may be the answer, an no amount of money the Reds offer will counter that.

Chip R
03-23-2012, 01:13 PM
Most assumptions are that Joey Votto has strong ties to his family, and wants to be closer to home in Canada. That may be the answer, an no amount of money the Reds offer will counter that.

If that's the case, why does he live in Florida?

MikeS21
03-24-2012, 10:12 AM
If that's the case, why does he live in Florida?
Maybe he wants to play in Florida? Can't see those teams having enough dough to sign him long term.

mth123
03-24-2012, 10:38 AM
The LA Dodgers are going to emerge from the ownership mess with a mega rich owner, a new TV deal, a lot of money off the books, an opening at 1B and a need to make a splash to counter the Angels signing of Pujols. The new owner may not want to wait until after 2013. If the Reds do decide that Votto can't be signed, that might be a place that the Reds could make a haul in young players next off-season. Votto, Kemp, Kershaw would be a nice basis for a dynasty.

LA has mostly pitching to deal, but that can be parlayed into a bat or two if need be.

I'd still rather they sign him.

_Sir_Charles_
03-24-2012, 11:47 AM
Most assumptions are that Joey Votto has strong ties to his family, and wants to be closer to home in Canada. That may be the answer, an no amount of money the Reds offer will counter that.
.....
Maybe he wants to play in Florida? Can't see those teams having enough dough to sign him long term.
(not directed at you specifically MikeS21)

And maybe he wants to play in Cincy. Maybe he likes his teammates. Maybe he likes his manager. Maybe he likes the fans. Maybe he likes the fact that its a town without a large media spotlight.

I haven't seen ANYTHING to make me think he WANTS to play anywhere else. And I certainly haven't seen anything that makes me think he wants to play in Canada. The only town/area I've seen/heard him profess a liking to is LA and that's because of the Lakers IIRC.

Lots of people DON'T want to "go back home" and instead wanted to get away from it. Joey may or may not be one of these guys....but this constant insistence that he would prefer Canada is beyond irritating. Especially when it has absolutely no basis in fact.

/Rant

Plus Plus
03-24-2012, 12:27 PM
(not directed at you specifically MikeS21)

And maybe he wants to play in Cincy. Maybe he likes his teammates. Maybe he likes his manager. Maybe he likes the fans. Maybe he likes the fact that its a town without a large media spotlight.

I haven't seen ANYTHING to make me think he WANTS to play anywhere else. And I certainly haven't seen anything that makes me think he wants to play in Canada. The only town/area I've seen/heard him profess a liking to is LA and that's because of the Lakers IIRC.

Lots of people DON'T want to "go back home" and instead wanted to get away from it. Joey may or may not be one of these guys....but this constant insistence that he would prefer Canada is beyond irritating. Especially when it has absolutely no basis in fact.

/Rant

Hear, here.