PDA

View Full Version : Phillips for Hamels?



LoganBuck
03-20-2012, 04:17 PM
Mentions of a POTENTIAL trade in the discussion phase getting around Twitter.

dougdirt
03-20-2012, 04:19 PM
All. Day. Long.

Scrap Irony
03-20-2012, 04:19 PM
Yes, please.

reds1869
03-20-2012, 04:21 PM
I love BP, but I take that deal all day every day.

LoganBuck
03-20-2012, 04:22 PM
http://www.trentonian.com/article/20120320/SPORTS12/120329952/osborne-trading-cole-hamels-is-phillies-best-hope&pager=full_story

Tom Servo
03-20-2012, 04:29 PM
In a Philadelphia minute.

LoganBuck
03-20-2012, 04:34 PM
The nuts and bolts of that deal would be tough. A trade would have to send something back to the Reds to play 2B and the Phillies would still need a pitcher.

Bailey and Phillips for Hamels and ???

reds1869
03-20-2012, 04:35 PM
The nuts and bolts of that deal would be tough. A trade would have to send something back to the Reds to play 2B and the Phillies would still need a pitcher.

Bailey and Phillips for Hamels and ???

Freddy Galvis?

Edit: and cash.

Kc61
03-20-2012, 04:42 PM
I see a straight up deal, Phillips for Hamels.

Then the Reds trade a pitcher, probably Homer or Chapman, for a second baseman from somebody.

Another option. Trade off the "excess" pitching (Homer, Chapman) along with Heisey or Ludwick for a better LF. Then gamble that H Rodriguez is ready to be the primary second baseman.

One issue: The Phils have an expensive guy named Utley who plays 2B.

Roy Tucker
03-20-2012, 04:42 PM
Heavens to Betsy, yes. I'd think about that for about a nanosecond and hit the "go" button.

Benihana
03-20-2012, 04:43 PM
The nuts and bolts of that deal would be tough. A trade would have to send something back to the Reds to play 2B and the Phillies would still need a pitcher.

Bailey and Phillips for Hamels and ???

Nah. Homer can't pitch in Philly. They need a veteran with playoff experience for their rotation:

Phillips and Arroyo for Hamels :beerme:

Roy Tucker
03-20-2012, 04:44 PM
One issue: The Phils have an expensive guy named Utley who plays 2B.

Utley is hurt. Which is why I imagine this is being "discussed".

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20120320_David_Murphy__Utley_s_career_could_be_in_ jeopardy.html?cmpid=137039688

Benihana
03-20-2012, 04:44 PM
I see a straight up deal, Phillips for Hamels.

Then the Reds trade a pitcher, probably Homer or Chapman, for a second baseman from somebody.

Another option. Trade off the "excess" pitching (Homer, Chapman) along with Heisey or Ludwick for a better LF. Then gamble that H Rodriguez is ready to be the primary second baseman.

I'd do either of these in a second. Although it would be a hell of a gamble to go into a season expecting to contend with a rookie catcher, 2B and SS. I guess having a rotation headed by Hamels, Latos, and Cueto would be one mitigating factor.

In the second scenario, I'd imagine Andre Ethier could be an interesting target.


One issue: The Phils have an expensive guy named Utley who plays 2B.

From what I've heard about his condition, Utley may be lucky to play 50 games this year. At this point, he may never play 100 games in a season again.

steig
03-20-2012, 04:53 PM
All. Day. Long.

yes, all day long and I'll help Phillips pack his bags

Kc61
03-20-2012, 04:53 PM
Reds could go for Orlando Hudson as a stop gap at second. He would provide the defense. You'd think the Reds have the talent to acquire him.

MikeS21
03-20-2012, 04:57 PM
A "source in Cincinnati?"

Has the writer of that article been reading RedsZone?

membengal
03-20-2012, 05:10 PM
Why, yes, yes I would thank you. And then print playoff tickets.

RedsManRick
03-20-2012, 05:23 PM
Yes, without hesitation. But what would they do with Utley if/when he gets healthy? Slide Phillips to SS or 3B?

http://www.trentonian.com/article/20120320/SPORTS12/120329952/-1/SPORTS/osborne-trading-cole-hamels-is-phillies-best-hope&pager=full_story


consider that a source in Cincinnati said on Tuesday that the Phillies and Reds had at least talked about a Hamels for Brandon Phillips swap.

"talked" means that the Phillies called and said "Hey Walt, do you think it's worth exploring something around Hamels and Phillips. And Walt replied -- we have no idea how he replied, if the Reds were at all interested, etc.

PuffyPig
03-20-2012, 05:32 PM
Zero chance of this happening.

I'd do it even if it was to trade Hamels for twice as much as you could get for Phillips.

Benihana
03-20-2012, 05:32 PM
Are there any other links other than the one Trentonian article?

RedsManRick
03-20-2012, 05:33 PM
Fay tweets:

johnfayman
RT @ssollmann say phillips is traded for hamels, who do u see playing 2nd this year and in three years?//Not going to happen

Maybe we can just undo Horst for Valdez?

Vottomatic
03-20-2012, 05:43 PM
It speaks volumes regarding what the Reds think about signing BP long term. They are going to.

oneupper
03-20-2012, 05:52 PM
From what I've heard about his condition, Utley may be lucky to play 50 games this year. At this point, he may never play 100 games in a season again.

What's up with Utley?

_Sir_Charles_
03-20-2012, 06:32 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/spring2012/story/_/id/7708602/2012-spring-training-chase-utley-philadelphia-phillies-doubtful-opening-day-knees


Utley was believed to have only an injured right knee, but general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. indicated Monday the left one may be causing more trouble.

"The guy's got bad knees. We know it and that's a fact," Amaro said. "We're just trying to limit and also make sure he's ready to go and play the bulk of the season. He told me his right knee feels much better. His left has been bothering him."

Ghosts of 1990
03-20-2012, 08:20 PM
NO. No, no, no.

Phillips is the heart and soul of this team, only semblance of a lead off hitter and extremely undervalued at a thin offensive position.

No. Cole Hamels would come here and be subpar. I'll keep Phillips.

dougdirt
03-20-2012, 08:29 PM
NO. No, no, no.

Phillips is the heart and soul of this team, only semblance of a lead off hitter and extremely undervalued at a thin offensive position.

No. Cole Hamels would come here and be subpar. I'll keep Phillips.

I will respect your opinion on Phillips, but what makes you think Hamels would come here and be subpar? Dude has been absolutely NAILS while pitching in an also very friendly home park for hitters.

hebroncougar
03-20-2012, 08:53 PM
That's about as much of a no brainer as there is. If that deal is ever put in front of Walt, he'd better do it. It's a fleecing.

corkedbat
03-20-2012, 10:00 PM
I'd do it in a heartbeet. I'b try to deal for a 2B, but I'd also coinsider a gamble or a 2B/SS rotation of HRod, Didi & Cozart.

Slyder
03-20-2012, 10:39 PM
Mentions of a POTENTIAL trade in the discussion phase getting around Twitter.

In a HEARTBEAT. If Phillies offer that the Reds should have said yes before they finished the offer!

LoganBuck
03-20-2012, 11:13 PM
NO. No, no, no.

Phillips is the heart and soul of this team, only semblance of a lead off hitter and extremely undervalued at a thin offensive position.

No. Cole Hamels would come here and be subpar. I'll keep Phillips.

Whoa, who decided that "Phillips is the heart and soul of this team"? The heart of this team is the guy with the MVP award at first base, and my guess is that the soul is probably with that young Texan who stands in right, you know a ringleader of the large Texas contingent in the clubhouse. Reds, born and raised in the system, not crying about their contracts.

I would do this deal in second, and I hope that if this deal does not go down, that the Reds allocate the Phillips salary money elsewhere. Sorry, I don't pay middle infielders on the wrong side of 30.

Slyder
03-20-2012, 11:23 PM
NO. No, no, no.

Phillips is the heart and soul of this team, only semblance of a lead off hitter and extremely undervalued at a thin offensive position.

No. Cole Hamels would come here and be subpar. I'll keep Phillips.

I think you undervalue what Bruce and Votto mean to this team. As they go so have the team gone. Yes losing Phillips would be a hit to the top of the lineup but we have a bit of a glut at that position and I would do something really odd and see if Rolen would be healthy enough to bat 2nd.

reds44
03-20-2012, 11:25 PM
Hamels wouldn't be back after this year either, though. It's a one year player for one year player for the Reds.

The Reds have a glut at 2B? Who? You'd be looking at Willie Harris as your 2nd baseman.

Scrap Irony
03-20-2012, 11:32 PM
I'd be okay with Willie Harris at 2B for half a season, then banking on Henry Rodriguez or DiDi Gregorius coming up for the second half.

Hamels would turn into two draft picks (high ones, I'm betting) if the Reds couldn't sign him. (Which admittedly would be doubtful.) Then again, Phillips is also not likely to be here next season-- too expensive for what he brings to the table.

Dan
03-21-2012, 08:44 AM
Why couldn't Frazier play 2b?

WildcatFan
03-21-2012, 09:18 AM
The move sounds amazing initially; I just wonder about how losing Phillips would affect both the offense and defense. As you have it now, there's a rookie catcher and a rookie shortstop penciled in to make 70-80 percent of the starts, and if Rolen goes down for an extended period of time (not out of the question by a long shot), you're going to have either a rookie at third (Francisco, Frazier) or a utlity man (Cairo, Valdez, Harris). Then lose your second baseman and you have the same situation you have at third base.

For as much value as Hamels would bring you every five starts, you could lose a ton with Phillips gone. You're then relying on Bruce and Votto to carry your offense while praying for a healthy Rolen, reemerging Ludwick, solid Stubbs, major-league ready Cozart and Mes, and a feasible second baseman.

Gainesville Red
03-21-2012, 09:43 AM
Nah, Jocketty moves come out of nowhere. Too many rumors about this one to be true.

redsfan30
03-21-2012, 10:30 AM
Sounds like I am in the minority but I want to hang on to, and resign, Phillips.

Kc61
03-21-2012, 10:36 AM
Sounds like I am in the minority but I want to hang on to, and resign, Phillips.

If both Phillips and Hamels are destined to be free agents, I could see the Reds doing this. Starting pitching is the ultimate weapon, and it's hard to see the Reds turning this down -- if both are pending free agents.

If the Reds may be re-signing Phillips, then you don't do the trade. Phillips for say, four years, is worth more IMO than Hamels for one.

But to address the point made by some, if the Reds did this deal, they would have to make some other deals. They would need a 2B. And they would need to add some offense IMO either at 2B or, as a substitute, in the outfield.

REDREAD
03-21-2012, 11:48 AM
It's not as big of a no brainer as people think.
Hammels would replace Homer in the rotation (does anyone dispute that).

Let's look at last years numbers (WAR, fangraphs)

Homer 1.5
Phillips 6

And you replace them with

Hammels 4.9
new second baseman..

Based on last year's WAR numbers, the new second baseman would need to have a 2.6 WAR.. I just don't see any rookie or 2b that we trade Homer for being able to accomplish that.

I also echo people's concerns .. If you trade Phillips, then you are forced to rely on both Ludwick and Rolen to have great years to maintain the offense. (Or maybe for Stubbs/Bruce to have a monster year).

Also, Phillips glove would be sorely missed.

The point about already playing a rookie C and SS is well taken too.

I would probably not do this trade. Phillips is a key to the offense and defense. Frankly, he's out produced Bruce, and I expect him to continue to do so.

If we make the playoffs, Phillips bat and glove is more valuable than Hammels pitching 2 games, IMO.

Now I am assuming Phillilps is going to play at a very high level this year. If he declines this year, this arguement goes out the window.

I would have to seriously think about this trade, because trading Phillips

Johnny Footstool
03-21-2012, 12:16 PM
This deal makes zero sense. Why would the Phillies even consider it?

PuffyPig
03-21-2012, 12:32 PM
If we make the playoffs, Phillips bat and glove is more valuable than Hammels pitching 2 games, IMO.



If in a 7 game series, a position player is more valuable than a starting pitcher who pitches 2 games, then the same must be true during the regular season.

And it isn't.

Most people think having a great starter is worth even more in the playoffs. Pitching 2 games out of 7 (or maybe even 2 games out of 5) is like starting 46 games during the regular season. What value would #1 starters be given if they could make 46 starts and throw about 300 innings?

Hamels would be our #1 pitcher. That's worth more than a very good 2nd baseman.

REDREAD
03-21-2012, 01:18 PM
If in a 7 game series, a position player is more valuable than a starting pitcher who pitches 2 games, then the same must be true during the regular season.

And it isn't.



Last year's WAR disputes that .
Phillips 6.0 Hammels 4.9

You are asserting that a starting pitcher is always more valuable than a position player. That's not always the case. It depends on several factors, including the makeup of the team.
Phillips is an impact bat and glove. You are underestimating his impact.
If we could easily pick up a 3 WAR 2b to replace Phillips, that would make a difference. However, the guy replacing Phillips would probably be replacement level or worse, since the team is out of money, no rookies are ready, and most teams with decent 2b aren't trading them now. Philllip's replacement would most likely be Frasier or Janish. Not worth it.

LoganBuck
03-21-2012, 01:28 PM
It's not as big of a no brainer as people think.
Hammels would replace Homer in the rotation (does anyone dispute that).

Let's look at last years numbers (WAR, fangraphs)

Homer 1.5
Phillips 6

And you replace them with

Hammels 4.9
new second baseman..

Based on last year's WAR numbers, the new second baseman would need to have a 2.6 WAR.. I just don't see any rookie or 2b that we trade Homer for being able to accomplish that.

I also echo people's concerns .. If you trade Phillips, then you are forced to rely on both Ludwick and Rolen to have great years to maintain the offense. (Or maybe for Stubbs/Bruce to have a monster year).

Also, Phillips glove would be sorely missed.

The point about already playing a rookie C and SS is well taken too.

I would probably not do this trade. Phillips is a key to the offense and defense. Frankly, he's out produced Bruce, and I expect him to continue to do so.

If we make the playoffs, Phillips bat and glove is more valuable than Hammels pitching 2 games, IMO.

Now I am assuming Phillilps is going to play at a very high level this year. If he declines this year, this arguement goes out the window.

I would have to seriously think about this trade, because trading Phillips

Of coarse you could also say that Phillips posted a BABIP that was out of line with his career norm last year.

BaseballProjection.com had Cole Hamels last year with a WAR of 5.4, and Phillips with a 4.1 (Bailey was 0.7) so another system shows a trade for Hamels, and the acquisition of any remotely adequate second baseman would net at least a gain of probably 2.0 WAR

AtomicDumpling
03-21-2012, 02:26 PM
Trading Phillips for Hamels would be a HUGE steal for the Reds.

Johnny Footstool
03-21-2012, 02:32 PM
WAR.

Huh.

What is it good for?

klw
03-21-2012, 02:53 PM
WAR.

Huh.

What is it good for?

Excellent. :laugh:

How about a two for one? Reds ship Valdez and Harris to the Phillies for Hamels. This would give the Phillies extra depth and give them some payflex. Plus they get two guys to the Reds one. Kind of like trading two nickels to a five yer old for a quarter. (or in this case two pennies for a dollar coin)

PuffyPig
03-21-2012, 03:01 PM
...or in this case two pennies for a dollar coin....


A dollar coin? You mean a Loonie?

REDREAD
03-21-2012, 03:06 PM
BaseballProjection.com had Cole Hamels last year with a WAR of 5.4, and Phillips with a 4.1 (Bailey was 0.7) so another system shows a trade for Hamels, and the acquisition of any remotely adequate second baseman would net at least a gain of probably 2.0 WAR

Which kind of proves it is very difficult to compare starting pitchers to starting poistion players, IMO.

Do you think the Reds could acquire an adequate 2b? I think that would be a tall order this late in the season, especially since there's no money and no one in their minor leagues that is ready. That's a key reason I wouldn't make this trade. If Phillips goes, he's likely to be replaced by a replacement level (or worse) player.

Vottomatic
03-21-2012, 03:59 PM
As said earlier, the Reds aren't going to sign a 31 year old 2B, who wants to be paid $15M per season for 5 or 6 seasons.

The truth of the matter is that the Reds are small market and BP is talking and demanding things that large market teams can afford.

That is why this trade surfaced. The Phillies have almost zero offense with Howard slow to recover, and Utley possibly having a career ending situation.

Reds do have options for 2B. Not as good as BP, but they do have options. Frazier could easily play 2B. Who's to say HRod isn't ready enough?

Turning down a deal for Hamels would be ludicrous. With the Reds unable to sign BP, and the Phillies unable to sign Hamels........and with both players probably becoming disgruntled (you know BP is).......a change of scenery would be good.

klw
03-21-2012, 04:31 PM
In all seriousness, I could see the Reds trading Valdez back to the Phillies if he isn't going to make the trip north with the Reds.

RED VAN HOT
03-21-2012, 08:45 PM
In all seriousness, I could see the Reds trading Valdez back to the Phillies if he isn't going to make the trip north with the Reds.

Even if the Phillies go with Freddy Galvis at 2B, they clearly need another infielder as back up with Michael Martinez hurt. Seems to me that the Reds are relatively deep in that area with Janish or Valdez going to AAA along with Negron.

REDblooded
03-21-2012, 09:20 PM
I'm for the proposal... But losing Phillips would also detract from the value of Leake... Don't forget that...

BCubb2003
03-21-2012, 10:39 PM
WAR.

Huh.

What is it good for?

Say it again.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82226

corkedbat
03-22-2012, 12:40 AM
No matter what I (or anyone on this board) think, I believe the front office is very determined to sign Votto and will go as far as it can to do so. I think that re-signing Phillips for anything close to what he wants would negatively really impact a Votto extension. Unless BP relents and takes a "hometown discount" (at an average annual figure of less than she makes this season), I believe he tests the market.

I don't see it. I would not completely rule out a return if he does go on the market and does not receive a better offer. I wouldn't go counting on that either. A best case (and low cost) scenario would be if Cozart, HRod and Gregorious develop and for a MI rotation. With Cozart a righty, Didi a lefty and HRod a switch-hitter, it could lead to an interesting rotation - especially if they could hit well enough to merit spots at the top of the order.

Slyder
03-22-2012, 02:04 AM
No matter what I (or anyone on this board) think, I believe the front office is very determined to sign Votto and will go as far as it can to do so. I think that re-signing Phillips for anything close to what he wants would negatively really impact a Votto extension. Unless BP relents and takes a "hometown discount" (at an average annual figure of less than he makes this season), I believe he tests the market.

I don't see it. I would not completely rule out a return if he does go on the market and does not receive a better offer. I wouldn't go counting on that either. A best case (and low cost) scenario would be if Cozart, HRod and Gregorious develop and for a MI rotation. With Cozart a righty, Didi a lefty and HRod a switch-hitter, it could lead to an interesting rotation - especially if they could hit well enough to merit spots at the top of the order.

This post was so nice, it was posted thrice! But I agree with you. I'd do this deal everyday and twice on Sundays.

Vottomatic
03-22-2012, 08:41 AM
Say it again.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82226

WAR.

Huh.

What is it good for?

Absolutely nothin'.

:D (Just keepin' it going)

Vottomatic
03-22-2012, 08:44 AM
Latest rumor has the Phils trading Hamels for Todd Frazier.

I'd pass. :D

klw
03-22-2012, 09:31 AM
Dat Due BP yesterday
http://twitter.com/#!/DatDudeBP


Brandon Phillips ‏ @DatDudeBP
Gotcha fam RT @jasonfford: @DatDudeBP just keep me posted if I need to change where I need to go for opening day. I'm hearing lots of rumors
8:27 PM - 21 Mar 12 via Echofon


Brandon Phillips ‏ @DatDudeBP
#RealTalk... It's no fun hearing bout these trade rumors on my #DayOff! What the HELL is goin on?! Come on #Cletus, tell me it's not so...��
6:22 PM - 21 Mar 12 via Echofon

dougdirt
03-22-2012, 09:32 AM
Reds do have options for 2B. Not as good as BP, but they do have options. Frazier could easily play 2B. Who's to say HRod isn't ready enough?

Turning down a deal for Hamels would be ludicrous. With the Reds unable to sign BP, and the Phillies unable to sign Hamels........and with both players probably becoming disgruntled (you know BP is).......a change of scenery would be good.

Todd Frazier can not play second base. He tried it in the minors. He looked about as confused as I would if you dropped me off in China without telling me where I was. It was a mess. He couldn't figure out the foot work on that side of second base to save his life. He had to think every step of the way and you could notice it. It was not pretty and it didn't last long for that reason.

Don't know if Rodriguez is ready yet.

Of course, I would still pull the trigger on that deal faster than you could spell your own name.

REDREAD
03-22-2012, 09:32 AM
As said earlier, the Reds aren't going to sign a 31 year old 2B, who wants to be paid $15M per season for 5 or 6 seasons.


Well, they aren't likely to have the cash to extend Hammels either.
I think if this trade is made, it's one year for either.. Neither is likely to be extended.
I can see why the Phillies would consider this trade.
However.. Phillips is the Reds' second best position player. Elite players that play up the middle are just as hard to come by as ace pitchers.
Phillips is likely going to be our leadoff or #2 hitter.
We have questionable bats at CF, LF, C, and especially SS.. actually even 3b is a question mark with Rolen's helath. I don't think they can risk plugging a question mark into 2b as well. Any minor leaguer we plug in will probably be worse than Janish this year (heck, they might as well just put Janish at 2b).

In a playoff situation, Hammels will displace the Reds' #3 starter.. In the regular season, he displaces Homer/Chapman...

I'd just rather have Phillips.. He will help the Reds win every day.
I understand the value of an ace pitcher, but I think the board is severely undervaluing the impact Phillips has on the offense (and defense).

_Sir_Charles_
03-22-2012, 10:13 AM
Even if the Phillies go with Freddy Galvis at 2B, they clearly need another infielder as back up with Michael Martinez hurt. Seems to me that the Reds are relatively deep in that area with Janish or Valdez going to AAA along with Negron.

For some reason, everybody keeps forgetting about Chris Valaika. IMO he's higher on the depth chart than freaking Negron is. Truth be told, I'd prefer either Valaika or Frazier over Valdez or Janish. I just don't see the point in carrying a back up shortstop who can't really do anything else to help the team.

_Sir_Charles_
03-22-2012, 10:17 AM
Todd Frazier can not play second base. He tried it in the minors. He looked about as confused as I would if you dropped me off in China without telling me where I was. It was a mess. He couldn't figure out the foot work on that side of second base to save his life. He had to think every step of the way and you could notice it. It was not pretty and it didn't last long for that reason.

Agreed completely. Todd can play 3B, OF, 1B and I still maintain he can play short as well. Pitiful range, but he's capable there.

Edd Roush
03-22-2012, 11:10 AM
For some reason, everybody keeps forgetting about Chris Valaika. IMO he's higher on the depth chart than freaking Negron is. Truth be told, I'd prefer either Valaika or Frazier over Valdez or Janish. I just don't see the point in carrying a back up shortstop who can't really do anything else to help the team.

The reason no one is discussing Chris Valiaka is because he posted a whopping .657 in, wait for it.... AAA last year. I would rather go with Janish as my every day second baseman than Valiaka. Negron posted an even worse AAA OPS than Valaika last year and neither are legitimate starting options in my eyes, right now.

Willie Harris does own a career .330 OBP. Brandon Phillips only has a career .322 OBP. This is not to say that Willie Harris is a better player than Brandon Phillips. Brandon has a strong advantage with slugging and with the glove (although Willie should be an average defender at second), and has the intangibles of leadership and is a fan favorite. I just think as a lead-off hitter whose main job is to reach base, I do not think that Brandon will do a much better job than Willie.

That being said, I am one of the biggest Homer Bailey fans on the board. I see the leading indicators of future ERA success of K:9, BB:9 and HR:9 all trending in the right way for Homer and I see a great year for him if he can stay healthy.

I would still do this trade if I am Walt even if meant Bailey being replaced by Hamels and Phillips being replaced by Harris. However, this trade would be the biggest hit if the Reds could make the trade Arroyo+Phillips+ Mound O' Cash for Hamels. Hamels would greatly improve Arroyo's spot in the rotation and the Reds would have the money to re-sign either Hamels or Votto with Arroyo off the books in 2013.

I think Willie Harris would be a good lead-off hitter if the Reds trade Phillips for Hamels and I hope this deal actually happens.

PuffyPig
03-22-2012, 11:51 AM
For some reason, everybody keeps forgetting about Chris Valaika. IMO he's higher on the depth chart than freaking Negron is. Truth be told, I'd prefer either Valaika or Frazier over Valdez or Janish. I just don't see the point in carrying a back up shortstop who can't really do anything else to help the team.

You carry a back up SS because you likely need someone to play SS other than the regular.

Neither Valaika nor Frazier can play SS in an acceptable manner.

Edd Roush
03-22-2012, 12:06 PM
You carry a back up SS because you likely need someone to play SS other than the regular.

Neither Valaika nor Frazier can play SS in an acceptable manner.

Why does a young SS really need that many days off? Once a week should be enough for a guy like Cozart who played more than 500 career minor league games with two seasons of more than 130 gmes played. Frazier could play that once a week when a fly ball pitcher is on the mound.

If Cozart goes on the DL, sure keep Janish in AAA so we can call him up for an extended injury. I don't want Frazier out there every day, but once a week with a fly ball pitcher on the mound, the SS may only see a few chances in a whole game.

CySeymour
03-22-2012, 12:32 PM
Why does a young SS really need that many days off? Once a week should be enough for a guy like Cozart who played more than 500 career minor league games with two seasons of more than 130 gmes played. Frazier could play that once a week when a fly ball pitcher is on the mound.

If Cozart goes on the DL, sure keep Janish in AAA so we can call him up for an extended injury. I don't want Frazier out there every day, but once a week with a fly ball pitcher on the mound, the SS may only see a few chances in a whole game.

He's coming off of elbow surgery, so it's reasonable to expect him to have some flareups that would require a day or two off.

Roy Tucker
03-22-2012, 01:19 PM
Thie first rule in baseball is that you can never have enough good pitching. And when in doubt, see rule #1.

I've been a Reds fan for 46 years and they have *never* *ever* had enough pitching. I'll take my chances with Hamels in the rotation and whatever the Reds can scratch up for 2B.

This also plays into "will they sign BP to a long term contract?" and "if so, how does that affect re-signing Votto?".

_Sir_Charles_
03-22-2012, 01:41 PM
He's coming off of elbow surgery, so it's reasonable to expect him to have some flareups that would require a day or two off.

And from my perspective, if he's having ANY kind of elbow flare-up, you DL him and bring someone up from L'ville. I agree with Edd. Frazier can handle short for small samples. I think people have forgotten just how much short he's played.

Heck, we dealt with Jerry Hairston Jr, Jeff Keppinger, Adam Rosales, Miguel Cairo, Jolbert Cabrera, Edgar Renteria & Orlando Cabrera. I think we can deal with Todd Frazier for a couple of starts each month.

dougdirt
03-22-2012, 04:33 PM
You carry a back up SS because you likely need someone to play SS other than the regular.

Neither Valaika nor Frazier can play SS in an acceptable manner.

I would be comfortable with Valaika or Frazier playing shortstop when Arroyo was on the mound. Valaika is the better shortstop of the two and I don't think he is as bad as you think, but I am not sure I would want him being out there every day even if I trusted his bat more than I do.

Vottomatic
03-22-2012, 05:03 PM
Well, they aren't likely to have the cash to extend Hammels either.
I think if this trade is made, it's one year for either.. Neither is likely to be extended.
I can see why the Phillies would consider this trade.
However.. Phillips is the Reds' second best position player. Elite players that play up the middle are just as hard to come by as ace pitchers.
Phillips is likely going to be our leadoff or #2 hitter.
We have questionable bats at CF, LF, C, and especially SS.. actually even 3b is a question mark with Rolen's helath. I don't think they can risk plugging a question mark into 2b as well. Any minor leaguer we plug in will probably be worse than Janish this year (heck, they might as well just put Janish at 2b).

In a playoff situation, Hammels will displace the Reds' #3 starter.. In the regular season, he displaces Homer/Chapman...

I'd just rather have Phillips.. He will help the Reds win every day.
I understand the value of an ace pitcher, but I think the board is severely undervaluing the impact Phillips has on the offense (and defense).

Hamels
Latos
Cueto

If the Reds could sign Hamels, they'd have Latos for 4 more years cheap. Cueto is already signed. Talk about top of the line starting rotation.

Trade BP, and tell him to test free agency and the Reds will make him an offer. :D :laugh: :thumbup:

kaldaniels
03-22-2012, 05:14 PM
Well, they aren't likely to have the cash to extend Hammels either.
I think if this trade is made, it's one year for either.. Neither is likely to be extended.
I can see why the Phillies would consider this trade.
However.. Phillips is the Reds' second best position player. Elite players that play up the middle are just as hard to come by as ace pitchers.
Phillips is likely going to be our leadoff or #2 hitter.
We have questionable bats at CF, LF, C, and especially SS.. actually even 3b is a question mark with Rolen's helath. I don't think they can risk plugging a question mark into 2b as well. Any minor leaguer we plug in will probably be worse than Janish this year (heck, they might as well just put Janish at 2b).

In a playoff situation, Hammels will displace the Reds' #3 starter.. In the regular season, he displaces Homer/Chapman...

I'd just rather have Phillips.. He will help the Reds win every day.
I understand the value of an ace pitcher, but I think the board is severely undervaluing the impact Phillips has on the offense (and defense).

I like BP. But....

Suppose I concede the point he is elite. How much longer do you expect him to be elite?

Captain Hook
03-22-2012, 06:02 PM
I like BP. But....

Suppose I concede the point he is elite. How much longer do you expect him to be elite?

Well if we're talking about the Reds having to choose between BP for one year or Hamels for one year it doesn't really matter as long as he has one more year left in the tank.

As far as the one year from each guy goes I think the trade could be a wash.Eventually the Reds would replace Phillips and be ok but this year I believe it would be a problem. As far as who I'd rather offer a sizable contract to after this year the answer is easily Hamels.So I'm actually of the beliefe that this deal could hurt the Reds just a bit this year but the chance of signing Hamels long term makes it a even deal.

PuffyPig
03-22-2012, 06:07 PM
If the Reds could sign Hamels, they'd have Latos for 4 more years cheap. Cueto is already signed. Talk about top of the line starting rotation.



If Latos pitches like he has over the last two years, he could easily be making $10M in year 3 and more in year 4.

The Reds aren't going to give Hamels a 8 year contract for $160M.

If the Phillies think his demands are too much (the only reason to trade him), what are the chances he'll sign with the Reds for a friendly deal?

RANDY IN INDY
03-22-2012, 06:31 PM
It pretty much boils down to which player you think will give your team more of a contribution this season and which area is a greater need. Chances are great that neither will be with you beyond that. Right now, I would give the nod to Phillips.

Scrap Irony
03-22-2012, 06:46 PM
It's Phillips v. Hamels and two draft picks, though.

You're likely not offering Phillips arbitration, as he'd probably be okay with th $12 million price tag.

Hamels will make at least $4 million more than that per season.

LoganBuck
03-22-2012, 10:32 PM
It's Phillips v. Hamels and two draft picks, though.

You're likely not offering Phillips arbitration, as he'd probably be okay with th $12 million price tag.

Hamels will make at least $4 million more than that per season.

Phillips won't accept arbitration. He needs to sign a bigger deal. His age will kill his bargaining power. He has to cash in quickly. He wants Uggla money. He won't get anywhere near that if he accepts arbitration.

Dan
03-23-2012, 07:51 PM
Um..the player to trade for to replace Phillips, should this trade go down, is Martin Prado. He'd be a perfect fit.

REDREAD
03-23-2012, 09:11 PM
I like BP. But....

Suppose I concede the point he is elite. How much longer do you expect him to be elite?

I guess I see this trade as one year of Phillips vs one year of Hammels, as they are both pending FAs, likely to test the market.

The Reds probably won't be able to extend either one

If it was trading one year of Phillips for multiple years of Hammels.. I concede, that would be a great trade.

I just think we need Phillips to help the other 4 guys in the rotation win.
At least for this year.

REDREAD
03-23-2012, 09:13 PM
It's Phillips v. Hamels and two draft picks, though.

You're likely not offering Phillips arbitration, as he'd probably be okay with th $12 million price tag.

Hamels will make at least $4 million more than that per season.

I don't think the draft picks matter in a situation like this.
We are trying to win the division
Also, I think Phillips would decline 1 year at 12 million also.

Vottomatic
03-25-2012, 11:32 AM
Um..the player to trade for to replace Phillips, should this trade go down, is Martin Prado. He'd be a perfect fit.

Mets are rebuilding.

Reds could pry away Daniel Murphy for some prospects to fill 2B if BP were traded.

mth123
03-25-2012, 12:45 PM
Mets are rebuilding.

Reds could pry away Daniel Murphy for some prospects to fill 2B if BP were traded.

Wouldn't mind Murphy for the LF/1B PH mix, but I have no desire for the defensivley challenged type in the MI. Not a fan of the Todd Walker type. Unless he hits like Jeff Kent, pass. Even then I'd probably move him to LF.